subject:"\[CentOS\] \[CentOS\-announce\] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat"

I have found at times the community to CentOS-leadership relations to be
quite poor.

I have witnessed the summary judgements against people like Dag Wieers
driving them away. Useful members driven out.

I have seen release dates slip for months at a time with no word from the
people in control of CentOS. The project has come into jeopardy many times.
CentOS 5.4 was a fiasco.

I have always suspected that after each release the exact build environment
/ script to create the RPMs is not made available to bring about this end -
whereby the secret sauce of how to build the SRPMs on ftp.redhat.com are
still kept hidden by the CentOS leaders. This is not a community project.
Its a free rebuild with all the mock magic hidden by those who just got a
huge payout.

I am also wondering if the serially rude and dismissive behavior by some of
the folks in control of CentOS will continue now that they cash massive
checks from Redhat. I guess when you sell out one needs to be more polite.

Now we need to possibly find a new rebuild. I think that release dates will
still be something that the leaders here do whatever and whenever they want.
I think that there will be significant differences in RHEL and CentOS now. I
think the secret build sauce will remain hidden from view and the people
receiving big pay for Redhat will serve their new masters well.

I've been a user since the WBEL/cAos days. I worry about this state of
affairs. Deeply.

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Robert Moskowitz


On 01/16/2014 09:14 PM, Nux! wrote:
 On 08.01.2014 01:04, Always Learning wrote:
 On Tue, 2014-01-07 at 21:09 +, Karanbir Singh wrote:

 With great excitement I'd like to announce that we are joining the
 Red
 Hat family. The CentOS Project ( http://www.centos.org ) is joining
 forces with Red Hat. Working as part of the Open Source and Standards
 team ( http://community.redhat.com/ ) to foster rapid innovation
 beyond the platform into the next generation of emerging
 technologies.
 Working alongside the Fedora and RHEL ecosystems, we hope to further
 expand on the community offerings by providing a platform that is
 easily consumed, by other projects to promote their code while we
 maintain the established base.
 But there is more to Red Hat's de facto take-over including the
 imposition of USA's domestic law on citizens all around the world.

 The compulsory imposition of USA law on all Centos downloaders creates
 the possibility of being arrested in one's home country and sent to
 the
 USA for a criminal trial.  A few people in Britain have been
 extradited
 to the USA for criminal trials for matters which are not criminal in
 Britain.

 Can anyone remember seeing this on the old Centos  ?
 These restrictions were always inherited. Theoretically if you use
 cryptographic software developed in USA you are bound to these rules.
 In many cases if you use for example OpenSSL in Windows, Ubuntu,
 Android etc etc you are still affected (I think), it's just that now
 it's written somewhere.
 In practice this is not very relevant and also pretty unenforceable;
 not to mention that - to my understanding - it contradicts the GPL.
 RH needs to specify this legal bit so uncle Sam is happy. Just do
 whatever everyone else does, ignore it.

ITAR is a 1947 treaty the binds all signatures to treat cryptographic 
'artifacts' as munitions and abide by the export restrictions that exist 
for all munitions. Period. Full stop.

This includes Crackerjacks (tm) encoder rings that I played with as a 
kid! Really! Someone in the US State department figured this out.

The only exception in the treaty is cryptographic academic papers (how 
we got pgpv3 exported, in book form); but even this got challenged 
because of the pgp export.

And like all treaty provisions regarding munitions export, they are open 
to interpretaton and enforcement. I leave the rest of the logic, or lack 
thereof to you.

(I lived this very closely back in the late '90s. I could, and have, 
tell you stories of the conversations back then)


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Robert Moskowitz


On 01/16/2014 10:45 PM, Stephen Harris wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:29:09PM -0500, Joseph Godino wrote:
 stating and what it was referring to. Please retract the word new.
 That's the point though.  If you (for generic values of you) export
 code under US legal restriction from the US then you're in breach of
 US regulations.  Whether you know about it or not.

 Fun, huh?

 If you run a mirror then you get to determine your legal risk and
 whether you should keep the mirror.  The CentOS team are not lawyers;
 they can't tell you.

 It's a fun legal question as to who does the export; the person
 making available for export on a web site or the person downloading
 from that website.  As far as I know it's not really settled.  In
 my opinion the RedHat wording is a prayer hoping that'll cover them :-)
 But I'm not a lawyer, either!

At one point a major unix manufacturer tried to get around this by 
having the crypto code written in another country by citizens of that 
country. They got shut down as re-exporting. In the end, they had to 
ship broken software that required customers to optain the critical code 
from this other country. This was part of our action to show how 
unenforceable ITAR was wrt cryptography as munitions. Some likened it to 
shipping guns without firing pins or ammo; which were readily available 
from other sources.

But at any point, someone in State can decide someone's actions violate 
the law and go after them. Ask Phil Zimmerman...


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat


On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 08:04 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

 The only exception in the treaty is cryptographic academic papers
 (how 
 we got pgpv3 exported, in book form); but even this got challenged 
 because of the pgp export.

Still have the sources and Windoze binaries from PGP 2. Those were the
days :-)

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Paul.
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EU.

   Our systems are exclusively Linux. No Micro$oft Windoze here.

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat


On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 08:04 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:


 The only exception in the treaty is cryptographic academic papers (how 
 we got pgpv3 exported, in book form); but even this got challenged 
 because of the pgp export.

I really mean 

Still have the sources and M$ DOS binaries from PGP 2. Those were the
days :-)


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EU.

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

I see you haven't read announcements and explanations, or you haven't 
understood them.

On 01/17/2014 10:14 AM, IonPacepa wrote:
 I have found at times the community to CentOS-leadership relations to be
 quite poor.

 I have witnessed the summary judgements against people like Dag Wieers
 driving them away. Useful members driven out.


You ARE aware that RepoForge is forzen solid because Dag Wieers does not 
want to release control to others but has no time to build packages 
ready for build? I wonder how is that different of what you accuse 
CentOS devs did.

FYI, I am not on either side, I do not accuse anyone, but I think every 
comment should be balanced.

 I have seen release dates slip for months at a time with no word from the
 people in control of CentOS. The project has come into jeopardy many times.
 CentOS 5.4 was a fiasco.

 I have always suspected that after each release the exact build environment
 / script to create the RPMs is not made available to bring about this end -
 whereby the secret sauce of how to build the SRPMs on ftp.redhat.com are
 still kept hidden by the CentOS leaders. This is not a community project.
 Its a free rebuild with all the mock magic hidden by those who just got a
 huge payout.

I can understand that someone is not willing to explain secret sauce 
they spent 100's of hours poured into to make it work in their free 
time, just so others can jump in and create a competitor to their 
product thus invalidating their work with lesser gratification. I am 
first who would not do it. Not without monetary reward. Weather I 
personally liked it or not is irrelevant.

Red Hat wants RHEV and their other products to have rebuilt versions. 
They need it so their products get bigger user base. It would be stupid 
to create entire community from scratch when CentOS only needs little 
help to open up and producing Variants, and then compete with CentOS.

So Red Hat will get opensource rebuilds for RHEV and other products and 
CentOS gets second wind and opens up entire process.


 I am also wondering if the serially rude and dismissive behavior by some of
 the folks in control of CentOS will continue now that they cash massive
 checks from Redhat. I guess when you sell out one needs to be more polite.

 Now we need to possibly find a new rebuild. I think that release dates will
 still be something that the leaders here do whatever and whenever they want.
 I think that there will be significant differences in RHEL and CentOS now. I
 think the secret build sauce will remain hidden from view and the people
 receiving big pay for Redhat will serve their new masters well.

Every one of you, unhappy ones, could have created your own rebuild, 
you could have also teamed up and found sponsors from all those unhappy 
community members you say exist. So, where is the product of your open 
collaboration?


 I've been a user since the WBEL/cAos days. I worry about this state of
 affairs. Deeply.



-- 
Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
PL Computers
Serbia, Europe

StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat


On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 15:59 +0100, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

 Every one of you, unhappy ones, could have created your own rebuild,
 you could have also teamed up and found sponsors
 from all those unhappy community members you say exist

I lack knowledge of how the community inspired Centos project started. I
remember squabbles over the domain name which was satisfactorily
resolved.

Not many people have the time and mental ability (both are needed) to
acquire the knowledge to create a rebuilding of RHEL.  Using Centos
requires less intellectual effort than literally starting from the
absolute beginning with RHEL sources.

Thinking positively about Centos, we share as
users/installers/administrators and problem solvers a really great and
very practical alternative to the world of M$.

Centos is used for millions, if not trillions, of operating systems.
Many use it but very few contribute technical assistance or money to the
continuing Centos project.  Without Centos what would we do ?  SL or the
Debian family or the BSDs or Solaris ?

Despite negative, unhappy and wrong things that have occurred, the
Centos project has continued to our personal advantage. It would be nice
if the unhappy things of the past could be amicably resolved and we all
become one big, happy and very satisfied world-wide family.

Lots of people have contributed directly in Centos or as package
re-builders for Centos suitable repositories.  To all those people, I
would like to say Thank You.

 (Love is in the Air)

Great to see you are still in love - she must be very special :-)

-- 
Paul.
England,
EU.

   Our systems are exclusively Linux. No Micro$oft Windoze here.

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

Every one of you, unhappy ones, could have created your own rebuild, 

A lot of Redhat rebuild projects gave up their very existence to support a
single CentOS. 

Not giving up the secret sauce is about control and power in the hand of a
few that have now financially benefited and retain a dictatorship on
roadmaps, release information and code.

Community here is a consumer of a built OS, but there is no community in how
it gets built. And with this centralized power comes the takeover and
payouts. 

If Redhat wasnt trying to block OEL or SL or trying to control CentOS and
make it different, they would simply offer RHEL for free on their own. This
allows them to wean the world off of CentOS at what is likely to be a
glacial pace at first then by Redhat we will have all given up. 



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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

You ARE aware that RepoForge is forzen solid because Dag Wieers does not
want to release control to others but has no time to build packages ready
for build

There is quite a bit of open-source surrounding rpmforge and rpmforge
doesn't have the work Community it its very name.



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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

I view this as a takeover. I view this as a few who kept how to rebuild RHEL
a state secret benefiting financially. I don't see how a community benefits
when we cannot recreate for ourselves what is being done here. I don't see
how we benefit when a large company comes in and buys their way into the
board and pays off all members. Where is the Community's say in this? This
is a payoff. Will we get releases sooner? Will we know how to rebuild the
build environment for ourselves? What if Redhat slowly makes using CentOS
painful to incentivize using RHEL? If Redhat had good intentions why don't
they give unsupported RHEL for free themselves. Granted the probably want to
keep OEL and the like from being able to freely rebuild and plagiarize and
charge money for their stuff, but we , the Community, the masses of users,
are stuck now between behemoths and their lackeys taking payouts throwing us
whatever table scraps they want and we are powerless to change this.

There is no makeworld or emerge world here, just binaries that magically get
produced and peppered on an ftp whenever someone gets around to it.



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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

Essentially Red Hat is slowly taking over and developing/assisting
Centos to be a more regular and structure organisation. The fact that
Red Hat now owns the Centos brand worries me but that's life. Absolutely
nothing remains static.

Interesting how a _community_ Brand can be bought.

Seems that we get magical binaries for free but no insight into the build
process or timelines to said creation.

Surely this was done to keep OEL at bay, but we are still caught in the
crossfire and the holders of the build secrets are getting $paid$ to keep
the secret. 

This is opensource without useful makefiles. Something Sony and Cisco do. 



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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

On 01/17/2014 04:35 PM, Always Learning wrote:

 (Love is in the Air)

 Great to see you are still in love - she must be very special :-)

Actually, Ljubo in both my first and last name means closely to 
someone who loves, kisses someone. Ljubomir means one who loves/kisses 
peace (peace = mir). Ljuba for example means one you love, 
designates mostly females.

So if you look and Internet as cloud in the air, signature means I 
am still around :)

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(Love is in the Air)
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

On 01/17/2014 05:05 PM, IonPacepa wrote:
 You ARE aware that RepoForge is forzen solid because Dag Wieers does not
 want to release control to others but has no time to build packages ready
 for build

 There is quite a bit of open-source surrounding rpmforge and rpmforge
 doesn't have the work Community it its very name.

I am on repoforge mailing list from 2008, and I know times when no 
package was built for several months, and guy working with Dag saying 
why got no responses from him. And when he has responded with I do not 
have time, they where denied any option to build packages without him.

If you are ignorant of this, then you need to dig into mailing list and 
learn true status, this being one-man show with helpers. If anything 
changed, I somehow missed it.


-- 
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(Love is in the Air)
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread m . roth

IonPacepa wrote:
 Every one of you, unhappy ones, could have created your own rebuild, 

 A lot of Redhat rebuild projects gave up their very existence to support a
 single CentOS.

 Not giving up the secret sauce is about control and power in the hand of a
 few that have now financially benefited and retain a dictatorship on
 roadmaps, release information and code.

 Community here is a consumer of a built OS, but there is no community in
 how it gets built. And with this centralized power comes the takeover and
 payouts.
snip

Most projects have specially authorized people. This is a Good Thing...
unless you really enjoy having a distro larded with malware and bugs that
crackers, crooks, other organizations and governments have deliberately,
or when IMSOHOT updates code with bugs galore.

I'd prefer not to have any of that (or I'd be on, say, another distro that
shall remain nameless but is also a style of hat

   mark

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

On 01/17/2014 05:03 PM, IonPacepa wrote:
 Every one of you, unhappy ones, could have created your own rebuild,

 A lot of Redhat rebuild projects gave up their very existence to support a
 single CentOS.

 Not giving up the secret sauce is about control and power in the hand of a
 few that have now financially benefited and retain a dictatorship on
 roadmaps, release information and code.


Path to CentOS core member is simple. You join CentOS QA team, and 
after some time proving you are reliable, you might join them.

Unless you prove your self, you can not even get job of supervisor to a 
bunch of clerks in supermarket, right? It is dangerous to allow unproven 
persons messing with such trusted OS like CentOS.

 Community here is a consumer of a built OS, but there is no community in how
 it gets built. And with this centralized power comes the takeover and
 payouts.

 If Redhat wasnt trying to block OEL or SL or trying to control CentOS and
 make it different, they would simply offer RHEL for free on their own. This
 allows them to wean the world off of CentOS at what is likely to be a
 glacial pace at first then by Redhat we will have all given up.


So you just skipped everything else I said and just reiterated what you 
said in first e-mail?

Ok, what ever, I am done wasting time on you.


-- 
Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
PL Computers
Serbia, Europe

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread John R. Dennison

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 05:55:54PM +0100, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:
 
 Ok, what ever, I am done wasting time on you.

Excellent.  Now if others would stop responding to the trolls it would
be even better.





John
-- 
I don't know.  Just because we are stupid doesn't mean everybody else was.

-- JP Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon, arguing against increased regulation as a
   response to his company's $2 billion loss, in a conference call,
   10 May 2012


pgpcWsHd3Pwft.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

On 01/17/2014 05:57 PM, John R. Dennison wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 05:55:54PM +0100, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

 Ok, what ever, I am done wasting time on you.

 Excellent.  Now if others would stop responding to the trolls it would
 be even better.


Sorry, I saw other troll e-mails of his after I wrote 3 responces in 
total. Only then I saw what's up.

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Jim Perrin

On 01/17/2014 10:03 AM, IonPacepa wrote:
 Every one of you, unhappy ones, could have created your own rebuild, 
 
 A lot of Redhat rebuild projects gave up their very existence to support a
 single CentOS. 
 
 Not giving up the secret sauce is about control and power in the hand of a
 few that have now financially benefited and retain a dictatorship on
 roadmaps, release information and code.

I really didn't want to get dragged into this, and this will probably be
my only post on the matter. But I feel the need to address some 'facts'
that have been laid out.

Let's clear a few points up here:

The benefit we gained is time. We are able to work on this fulltime now
instead of after hours following a job doing something else.

As to not giving up the secret sauce, we publish the changelog and
packages we've had to modify to deal with TM compliance. It's in the
wiki for every release. The build scripts for isos were for the early
releases were on the mirrors and are still published on the vault.

What we didn't do was create a support mechanism to fracture the
community every time someone got an idea. That seeks only to tear away
at the community rather than to build it up.

Several groups took the distribution we put out and changed it to suit
their own needs just fine. ClarkConnect as an example.


 Community here is a consumer of a built OS, but there is no community in how
 it gets built. And with this centralized power comes the takeover and
 payouts. 

Please stop the FUD here.
The centralized power you're talking about is the origin of the source.
It was never ours. We, SL, Puias/SpringDale and the rest all had to go
through the same motions.




 If Redhat wasnt trying to block OEL or SL or trying to control CentOS and
 make it different, they would simply offer RHEL for free on their own. This
 allows them to wean the world off of CentOS at what is likely to be a
 glacial pace at first then by Redhat we will have all given up. 



Hugely incorrect and outright FUD. The point of this is to *build*
community. Offering free RHEL would fracture and destroy several
communities, as well as damaging likely damaging Red Hat's reputation in
the eyes of everyone inside those communities and anyone outside who
wanted to throw stones.





-- 
Jim Perrin
The CentOS Project | http://www.centos.org
twitter: @BitIntegrity | GPG Key: FA09AD77
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Digimer

On 17/01/14 11:12 AM, IonPacepa wrote:
 I view this as a takeover. I view this as a few who kept how to rebuild RHEL
 a state secret benefiting financially. I don't see how a community benefits
 when we cannot recreate for ourselves what is being done here. I don't see
 how we benefit when a large company comes in and buys their way into the
 board and pays off all members. Where is the Community's say in this? This
 is a payoff. Will we get releases sooner? Will we know how to rebuild the
 build environment for ourselves? What if Redhat slowly makes using CentOS
 painful to incentivize using RHEL? If Redhat had good intentions why don't
 they give unsupported RHEL for free themselves. Granted the probably want to
 keep OEL and the like from being able to freely rebuild and plagiarize and
 charge money for their stuff, but we , the Community, the masses of users,
 are stuck now between behemoths and their lackeys taking payouts throwing us
 whatever table scraps they want and we are powerless to change this.

 There is no makeworld or emerge world here, just binaries that magically get
 produced and peppered on an ftp whenever someone gets around to it.

One of the beautiful things about open source is the ability to fork, 
create a new project, etc.

CentOS was never under any requirement to release their build methods. 
Whether that was a good or bad choice is not very relevant now.

If you (and others) feel that the build process needed to create a 
binary compatible is a worthy goal, you can start a project to do just that.

-- 
Digimer
Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/
What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without 
access to education?
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Les Mikesell

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Jim Perrin jper...@centos.org wrote:
 
 What we didn't do was create a support mechanism to fracture the
 community every time someone got an idea. That seeks only to tear away
 at the community rather than to build it up.

Is that how you describe every other open source project?   Ones where
the tools to rebuild are easily available?  Are they all really that
bad?

 Several groups took the distribution we put out and changed it to suit
 their own needs just fine. ClarkConnect as an example.

I think you are missing a bit of history in that project and its
clearos successor.   Notably the issues around the delay of a 6.x
release.  Not to revisit those issues, but still everyone _must_ stay
away of the dependency chain and the potential of upstream problems
when that dependency is forced.

 Hugely incorrect and outright FUD. The point of this is to *build*
 community. Offering free RHEL would fracture and destroy several
 communities, as well as damaging likely damaging Red Hat's reputation in
 the eyes of everyone inside those communities and anyone outside who
 wanted to throw stones.

I strongly disagree with that.  Red Hat's community and reputation
were  just fine back in the day when they did not restrict access to
binaries. In fact, if it were not for those days, we'd probably all be
using debian.  Their problem would be in how to enforce the
requirement that all copies of RHEL in an organization have to be
under paid support to have any if not for the distinction between the
rebuilds and their own.

-- 
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 lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread m . roth

John R. Dennison wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 05:55:54PM +0100, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

 Ok, what ever, I am done wasting time on you.

 Excellent.  Now if others would stop responding to the trolls it would
 be even better.

Can't resist: I think he's trying to get our goat... and everyone knows
what happens when a troll runs into a goat

   mark your folks *did* tell you that story, right?





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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

On 01/17/2014 10:15 AM, IonPacepa wrote:
 Essentially Red Hat is slowly taking over and developing/assisting
 Centos to be a more regular and structure organisation. The fact that
 Red Hat now owns the Centos brand worries me but that's life. Absolutely
 nothing remains static.

 Interesting how a _community_ Brand can be bought.

 Seems that we get magical binaries for free but no insight into the build
 process or timelines to said creation.

 Surely this was done to keep OEL at bay, but we are still caught in the
 crossfire and the holders of the build secrets are getting $paid$ to keep
 the secret. 

 This is opensource without useful makefiles. Something Sony and Cisco do. 

What the heck are you talking about ... rpmbuild -ba name.src.rpm

It builds if you install the proper packages from the CentOS repos.

Using mock and a CentOS Tree can reproduce CentOS just as easily.

We are creating git.centos.org so that everyone can look at and build
any of the packages.

We are creating a variants program so that projects can take CentOS as a
base and create (on our servers) respins of the ISOs and/or repositories
that get branded as CentOS.  They can collaborate, ON OUR SYSTEMS, to
build things for the community to use.

I have no earthly idea what you are talking about ... although, you are
certainly free to use (or not use) CentOS however you choose.

I just wish you would research your fact before you post garbage on the
list.



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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat


On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 13:53 -0600, Johnny Hughes wrote:

 What the heck are you talking about ... rpmbuild -ba name.src.rpm
 
 It builds if you install the proper packages from the CentOS repos.
 
 Using mock and a CentOS Tree can reproduce CentOS just as easily.
 
 We are creating git.centos.org so that everyone can look at and build
 any of the packages.
 
 We are creating a variants program so that projects can take CentOS as
 a base and create (on our servers) respins of the ISOs and/or
 repositories that get branded as CentOS.  They can collaborate, ON OUR
 SYSTEMS, to build things for the community to use.


Sounds interesting and exciting. Its needs to get more publicity.

-- 
Paul.
England,
EU.

   Our systems are exclusively Linux. No Micro$oft Windoze here.

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Edward M

On 1/17/2014 8:12 AM, IonPacepa wrote:
   don't see
 how we benefit when a large company comes in and buys their way into the
 board and pays off all members. Where is the Community's say in this? This
 is a payoff. Will we get releases sooner? Will we know how to rebuild the
 build environment for ourselves? What if Redhat slowly makes using CentOS
 painful to incentivize using RHEL? If Redhat had good intentions why don't
 they give unsupported RHEL for free themselves. Granted the probably want to
 keep OEL and the like from being able to freely rebuild and plagiarize and
 charge money for their stuff, but we , the Community, the masses of users,
 are stuck now between behemoths and their lackeys taking payouts throwing us
 whatever table scraps they want and we are powerless to change this.


   Sorry, could not resist...:-) reminds me of,

  Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Warren Young

On 1/17/2014 12:11, Les Mikesell wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Jim Perrin jper...@centos.org wrote:

 Offering free RHEL would fracture and destroy several communities,

 I strongly disagree with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions

I count 115 Debian/Ubuntu variants.  (Could be off by a few, since my 
eyes started to cross there near the end.)  15 of those are directly 
under the Ubuntu umbrella; apparently they feel the need to capture at 
least a handful of these forks, to prevent their community from going 
all to pieces.  That leaves a hundred non-official forks.

I count only 10 RHEL derivatives, plus RHEL itself.

If you throw in Fedora and its derivatives, then the total goes to 32, 
which only goes to prove my (and Jim's) point: the more open Fedora 
branch gets forked more often.

Anyway, if you want a wide-open Linux, Les, you know where to get it.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Michael Hennebry

On Fri, 17 Jan 2014, Digimer wrote:

 CentOS was never under any requirement to release their build methods.
 Whether that was a good or bad choice is not very relevant now.

I'd thought that the GPL's said differently.
From a subsequennt post, I gather that there
is disagreement on whether CentOS has done so.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Les Mikesell

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:07 PM, Warren Young war...@etr-usa.com wrote:

 Anyway, if you want a wide-open Linux, Les, you know where to get it.

Sigh..., It's complicated.   I want stability and reliable security
updates. But I don't like  being dependent on any single entity to
provide that. Maybe that goes back to relying on some ATT unix
systems in what seems like another life.   Even though semi-compatible
alternatives were available, being forced to change was somewhat
painful.   So I don't necessarily want wide-open, just a little more
open than being married.

I don't really think the CentOS team has an evil plan here, but they
should take it as a compliment that I think they are smart enough to
fool me if they did want to do something like inject a hidden backdoor
with their builds.  But, the bigger question is where it leaves us if
they just decide to quit after assimilating most of the related
systems under a build ecosystem that no one else can reproduce easily.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
  lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

On 01/17/2014 10:12 AM, IonPacepa wrote:
 I view this as a takeover. I view this as a few who kept how to rebuild RHEL
 a state secret benefiting financially. I don't see how a community benefits
 when we cannot recreate for ourselves what is being done here. I don't see
 how we benefit when a large company comes in and buys their way into the
 board and pays off all members. Where is the Community's say in this? This
 is a payoff. Will we get releases sooner? Will we know how to rebuild the
 build environment for ourselves? What if Redhat slowly makes using CentOS
 painful to incentivize using RHEL? If Redhat had good intentions why don't
 they give unsupported RHEL for free themselves. Granted the probably want to
 keep OEL and the like from being able to freely rebuild and plagiarize and
 charge money for their stuff, but we , the Community, the masses of users,
 are stuck now between behemoths and their lackeys taking payouts throwing us
 whatever table scraps they want and we are powerless to change this.

 There is no makeworld or emerge world here, just binaries that magically get
 produced and peppered on an ftp whenever someone gets around to it.

And I view you as unbelievably dense ... how about you actually see
something tangible actually CHANGE for the worse before you make your
proclamations of the end of CentOS.  When something happens that
actually takes something away that is important, you can then come back
and post about it.  If a frog had wings it would not bump its ass on the
ground when it jumped.  That statement is as relevant as your
proclamations of doom before anything has changed in any way.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with CentOS the base OS or any
restrictions to or for anything ... it has to do with adding the ability
for the community (Like Xen4, like RDO, like GlusterFS, like OpenStack
Origin, like OpenNebula, like Ceph, like RackSpace, like insert name
here, being able to start a community project, on OUR HARDWARE, and
build things to use with CentOS by the community.

If the source code is available, any one can build it ... both Red Hat
and CentOS already all the source code available.  Every package that is
changed in CentOS and every srpm (changed or not) is published.  All it
takes is time to build and compare and build again in the proper order.

Some things, like a dot zero (ie, 5.0, 6.0, 7.0) release take a lot of
time to figure out the proper build order and mechanics .. which is why
there is http://seven.centos.org/ .  We (The CentOS Project)
specifically went out and got permission to get this site up and
discuss, from the beginning of the first beta release of rhel7b1, the
ability to build this software.  How to get it to build, what is
required (rhel7b1, f19, other packages from rawhide, etc.).  We are
doing it in the public, publishing mock configs and everything else on
git.centos.org:

https://git.centos.org/summary/sig-core!bld-seven.git

We will, it the coming weeks, publish our beanstalk client (nazar) and
build system (reimzul) on that git site as you can see in:

https://git.centos.org/summary/centos-git-common.git

We could not possibly be more open than this.

In summary, opinions are like ... well, you know the rest.  Opinions are
a dime a dozen.  Actions are relevant.  Our actions show we want to
continue to provide the best OS in the world to the community AND we
want to also bring in many more members to make CentOS better than ever.

Take a look at the centos-devel mailing list at all the groups that want
to start a new Special Interest Group:

http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-devel/2014-January/thread.html





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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

On 01/17/2014 01:57 PM, Always Learning wrote:
 On Fri, 2014-01-17 at 13:53 -0600, Johnny Hughes wrote:

 What the heck are you talking about ... rpmbuild -ba name.src.rpm

 It builds if you install the proper packages from the CentOS repos.

 Using mock and a CentOS Tree can reproduce CentOS just as easily.

 We are creating git.centos.org so that everyone can look at and build
 any of the packages.

 We are creating a variants program so that projects can take CentOS as
 a base and create (on our servers) respins of the ISOs and/or
 repositories that get branded as CentOS.  They can collaborate, ON OUR
 SYSTEMS, to build things for the community to use.

 Sounds interesting and exciting. Its needs to get more publicity.


The centos-devel mailing list has had more traffic in the last 10 days
than it had in the previous 9 months ... I'd say that some people have
figured it out :)

It is also a link on the front page to variants/SIGs:

http://www.centos.org/variants/

We are not ready to actually create these yet, as we need to get more
infrastructure and processes in place ... but we are discussing how we
are going to do it and getting ready now.



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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Tom Bishop

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Johnny Hughes joh...@centos.org wrote:

 Snip...

  In summary, opinions are like ... well, you know the rest.  Opinions are
a dime a dozen.  Actions are relevant.  Our actions show we want to
continue to provide the best OS in the world to the community AND we
want to also bring in many more members to make CentOS better than ever.

--Snip

+1 from me I like the direction and the additional openness, I believe it
is headed in a better direction, thanks for all the hard work!

:)
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Andrew Wyatt

On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote:

 snip But, the bigger question is where it leaves us if
 they just decide to quit after assimilating most of the related
 systems under a build ecosystem that no one else can reproduce easily.


I don't expect that it would ever be necessary, but it wouldn't be terribly
difficult to reproduce the distro from source packages.  It would require a
lot of work and a lot of build time, but it's not really very difficult.
 The most challenging component would be the initial bootstrap build, we
could produce altered trademarks packages in less than an hour.  I wouldn't
lose any sleep over it.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

2014-01-17 Thread Warren Young

On 1/17/2014 13:33, Les Mikesell wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:07 PM, Warren Young war...@etr-usa.com wrote:

 Anyway, if you want a wide-open Linux, Les, you know where to get it.

 Sigh..., It's complicated.   I want stability and reliable security
 updates. But I don't like  being dependent on any single entity to
 provide that.

You want your Linux to be under control, but not controlled.  Is that it? :)

Someone has to have their hand on the tiller.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat

On 01/17/2014 09:33 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:07 PM, Warren Young war...@etr-usa.com wrote:
 I don't really think the CentOS team has an evil plan here, but they
 should take it as a compliment that I think they are smart enough to
 fool me if they did want to do something like inject a hidden backdoor
 with their builds.

That is reasonable fear, but unless you are going to build everything 
yourself, you can never be sure in anyone else. And even if you have an 
accessible build system, there is a question if it was compromised in a 
way that others can not notice, but producing backdoor.

So it all comes down to trust vs convenience.


-- 
Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
PL Computers
Serbia, Europe

StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-announce] CentOS Project joins forces with Red Hat