Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 18:39, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 15:57, Frank Cox wrote: > >> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:22:21 -0500 >> Jonathan Billings wrote: >> >> 1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads >> >> I think that in most cases that will happen, yes, since people with a >> technical background understand that clarity and precision are important >> when posting a question or observation or asking for advice. >> >> 2.) as we’ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of >> on-topic threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue. >> >> Which of course never happens now with threads that start off discussing >> some aspect of Centos? >> > >> > You’ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will be >> > worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics. >> >> In your opinion. On average, this is not a high-traffic mailing list and >> I'd be really surprised if the traffic actually increased in any >> significant way since a question that might today be asked about Centos >> will be asked tomorrow about Rocky; either way, there's no net increase in >> the traffic, just a change in the subject line. >> >> > I have now administered mailing lists for 25+ years and I have found that > what happens is that off-topic traffic basically causes an echo chamber > effect over time. The people having the side conversations get louder and > louder over time not because the list gets larger but because they have > 'driven' off the people who were here for a specific focus. The people > remaining become more and more of an echo chamber moving the 'topic' to > being wha > > I realize that this has been a traumatic split in the culture for a lot of > people (myself included), but there is a point where the list main topic of > discussion will be on how to use/administer/fix CentOS Stream and CentOS-7 > versus Oracle/FreeBSD/Rocky/Alma/Debian/Slackware/etc. > > I can ask for a generic-enterprise-nix (genix?) list on the CentOS mailman > and see if that can take up the traffic for the people who feel that they > want and need to talk about alternatives. If that is acceptable then people > can subscribe there and talk in detail about other operating systems > choices. I do believe these conversations do need to happen but not > everyone wants to hear the 4 Yorkshiremen skit every day as we 'old-timers' > deal with our past. > > > https://pagure.io/centos-infra/issue/214 The list may not make sense to be on the CentOS mail servers so I may need to look at either Fedora or a different site. > -- > Stephen J Smoogen. > > -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 19:05:08 -0600 Valeri Galtsev wrote: > Thank you, Stephen. I hope, someone of CentOS mail list admins makes that new > list you suggested. Then the heat will be off both groups of people. Me three? I agree that sounds like a very reasonable action and a real solution. -- MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Real D 3D Digital Cinema ~ www.melvilletheatre.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 07:05:08PM -0600, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > > On Feb 6, 2021, at 5:39 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > > I can ask for a generic-enterprise-nix (genix?) list on the CentOS mailman > > and see if that can take up the traffic for the people who feel that they > > want and need to talk about alternatives. If that is acceptable then people > > can subscribe there and talk in detail about other operating systems > > choices. > > When wise man gives a solution, I always think: how come this never occurred > to me? > > Thank you, Stephen. I hope, someone of CentOS mail list admins makes that new > list you suggested. Then the heat will be off both groups of people. > I just want to add that I, too, think this is a good idea. There is a Tokyo Linux list that has been around since the 90's I think. They wound up creating a second list, just for questions that were relevant to Tokyo, but not to Linux, such as Japanese language questions. It worked quite well, and is still in use, though that list too has slowed down quite a bit in recent years. -- Scott Robbins PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
> On Feb 6, 2021, at 5:39 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 15:57, Frank Cox wrote: > >> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:22:21 -0500 >> Jonathan Billings wrote: >> >> 1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads >> >> I think that in most cases that will happen, yes, since people with a >> technical background understand that clarity and precision are important >> when posting a question or observation or asking for advice. >> >> 2.) as we’ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of >> on-topic threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue. >> >> Which of course never happens now with threads that start off discussing >> some aspect of Centos? >>> >>> You’ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will be >>> worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics. >> >> In your opinion. On average, this is not a high-traffic mailing list and >> I'd be really surprised if the traffic actually increased in any >> significant way since a question that might today be asked about Centos >> will be asked tomorrow about Rocky; either way, there's no net increase in >> the traffic, just a change in the subject line. >> >> > I have now administered mailing lists for 25+ years and I have found that > what happens is that off-topic traffic basically causes an echo chamber > effect over time. The people having the side conversations get louder and > louder over time not because the list gets larger but because they have > 'driven' off the people who were here for a specific focus. The people > remaining become more and more of an echo chamber moving the 'topic' to > being wha > > I realize that this has been a traumatic split in the culture for a lot of > people (myself included), but there is a point where the list main topic of > discussion will be on how to use/administer/fix CentOS Stream and CentOS-7 > versus Oracle/FreeBSD/Rocky/Alma/Debian/Slackware/etc. > > I can ask for a generic-enterprise-nix (genix?) list on the CentOS mailman > and see if that can take up the traffic for the people who feel that they > want and need to talk about alternatives. If that is acceptable then people > can subscribe there and talk in detail about other operating systems > choices. I do believe these conversations do need to happen but not > everyone wants to hear the 4 Yorkshiremen skit every day as we 'old-timers' > deal with our past. When wise man gives a solution, I always think: how come this never occurred to me? Thank you, Stephen. I hope, someone of CentOS mail list admins makes that new list you suggested. Then the heat will be off both groups of people. Valeri > > -- > Stephen J Smoogen. > ___ > CentOS mailing list > CentOS@centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 15:57, Frank Cox wrote: > On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:22:21 -0500 > Jonathan Billings wrote: > > 1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads > > I think that in most cases that will happen, yes, since people with a > technical background understand that clarity and precision are important > when posting a question or observation or asking for advice. > > 2.) as we’ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of > on-topic threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue. > > Which of course never happens now with threads that start off discussing > some aspect of Centos? > > > > You’ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will be > > worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics. > > In your opinion. On average, this is not a high-traffic mailing list and > I'd be really surprised if the traffic actually increased in any > significant way since a question that might today be asked about Centos > will be asked tomorrow about Rocky; either way, there's no net increase in > the traffic, just a change in the subject line. > > I have now administered mailing lists for 25+ years and I have found that what happens is that off-topic traffic basically causes an echo chamber effect over time. The people having the side conversations get louder and louder over time not because the list gets larger but because they have 'driven' off the people who were here for a specific focus. The people remaining become more and more of an echo chamber moving the 'topic' to being wha I realize that this has been a traumatic split in the culture for a lot of people (myself included), but there is a point where the list main topic of discussion will be on how to use/administer/fix CentOS Stream and CentOS-7 versus Oracle/FreeBSD/Rocky/Alma/Debian/Slackware/etc. I can ask for a generic-enterprise-nix (genix?) list on the CentOS mailman and see if that can take up the traffic for the people who feel that they want and need to talk about alternatives. If that is acceptable then people can subscribe there and talk in detail about other operating systems choices. I do believe these conversations do need to happen but not everyone wants to hear the 4 Yorkshiremen skit every day as we 'old-timers' deal with our past. -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
Sorry about top posting. Though I can understand Jonathan’s feelings, I am with Frank on this subject. So, I will keep participating in “non-CentOS” discussions which may be useful to CentOS refugees, until I’m kicked out of the list, or such discussions become forcefully banned. As this - CentOS list - is the only place where all CentOS refugees may be present, and those fled to one distro may bring information helpful for those fled to different distro, and most logical place for it is this very list. To CentOS fanats: I do understand your feelings. But try to understand those who had to flee CentOS because of CentOS’s (or RedHat’s, or IBM’s) recent decision. You only need to tolerate this for about a year at the most, this inappropriate in your view thing will fade out on its own. Former happy CentOS user (for over decade and a half) who still supports a bunch of CentOS number crunchers, - till EOL of respective release numbers. Valeri > On Feb 6, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Frank Cox wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:22:21 -0500 > Jonathan Billings wrote: > > 1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads > > I think that in most cases that will happen, yes, since people with a > technical background understand that clarity and precision are important when > posting a question or observation or asking for advice. > > 2.) as we’ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of on-topic > threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue. > > Which of course never happens now with threads that start off discussing some > aspect of Centos? >> >> You’ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will be >> worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics. > > In your opinion. On average, this is not a high-traffic mailing list and I'd > be really surprised if the traffic actually increased in any significant way > since a question that might today be asked about Centos will be asked > tomorrow about Rocky; either way, there's no net increase in the traffic, > just a change in the subject line. > >> You want a generic >> rhel clone list? Create one and post an announcement about it. > > You're welcome to do that if that's your calling. By all means, be my guest, > and so on. Personally, I'm quite content using the mailing lists that I've > been using for years. If I really have to sign up for some other mailing > lists then I can do that though it's not really my first choice of actions. > I really have no desire to run a mailing list of my own. Again, though, > you're welcome to undertake that if you wish and I might even be convinced to > sign up for it. > >> If you want to talk about Rocky or Oracle Linux, use their lists. This list >> is for CentOS. > > Since neither you or I are the list manager, all we can do is express an > opinion. I've expressed mine, you've expressed yours, and a few other folks > have chimed in too. And we'll all get to find out what happens as time goes > on. > >> If you have a question that is >> codebase specific, then just ask it without talking about the distro it came >> from, but as soon as it becomes clear that it is infrastructure related, keep >> it on the appropriate list. > > And after going through all of the above, you ultimately agree with me after > all. > > I generally read just the parts of this mailing list that are of interest to > me, and most questions and observations that I see here are about specific > programs/setups/why-did-this-just-explode. Unless they're buried in some of > the threads that I skip over because they don't seem relevant to what I'm > doing, I see very few questions about infrastructure and the like. Well, up > until about two months ago, that is. And I'm pretty sure the infrastructure > stuff will calm down again after the big change-over at the end of this year. > > > > -- > MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Real D 3D Digital Cinema ~ www.melvilletheatre.com > ___ > CentOS mailing list > CentOS@centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:22:21 -0500 Jonathan Billings wrote: 1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads I think that in most cases that will happen, yes, since people with a technical background understand that clarity and precision are important when posting a question or observation or asking for advice. 2.) as we’ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of on-topic threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue. Which of course never happens now with threads that start off discussing some aspect of Centos? > > You’ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will be > worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics. In your opinion. On average, this is not a high-traffic mailing list and I'd be really surprised if the traffic actually increased in any significant way since a question that might today be asked about Centos will be asked tomorrow about Rocky; either way, there's no net increase in the traffic, just a change in the subject line. > You want a generic > rhel clone list? Create one and post an announcement about it. You're welcome to do that if that's your calling. By all means, be my guest, and so on. Personally, I'm quite content using the mailing lists that I've been using for years. If I really have to sign up for some other mailing lists then I can do that though it's not really my first choice of actions. I really have no desire to run a mailing list of my own. Again, though, you're welcome to undertake that if you wish and I might even be convinced to sign up for it. > If you want to talk about Rocky or Oracle Linux, use their lists. This list > is for CentOS. Since neither you or I are the list manager, all we can do is express an opinion. I've expressed mine, you've expressed yours, and a few other folks have chimed in too. And we'll all get to find out what happens as time goes on. > If you have a question that is > codebase specific, then just ask it without talking about the distro it came > from, but as soon as it becomes clear that it is infrastructure related, keep > it on the appropriate list. And after going through all of the above, you ultimately agree with me after all. I generally read just the parts of this mailing list that are of interest to me, and most questions and observations that I see here are about specific programs/setups/why-did-this-just-explode. Unless they're buried in some of the threads that I skip over because they don't seem relevant to what I'm doing, I see very few questions about infrastructure and the like. Well, up until about two months ago, that is. And I'm pretty sure the infrastructure stuff will calm down again after the big change-over at the end of this year. -- MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Real D 3D Digital Cinema ~ www.melvilletheatre.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Feb 5, 2021, at 23:24, Frank Cox wrote: > We'll see discussion of Rocky Linux and Oracle Linux ramping up on this > mailing list over the course of the next year for the above reason. You can > stamp your little feet and say that such things don't belong here, or the > better option is to read what you're interested in and participate in the > discussions. Ignoring anything non-Centos and reading only Centos-specific > threads will likely be possible too if you really insist since a majority of > posters will probably put "Oracle" or "Rocky" or something like that into > their subject lines anyway. That’s a poor argument, you’re basically telling people that you can post about any topic unrelated to CentOS, and people can just read the CentOS related ones. 1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads and 2.) as we’ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of on-topic threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue. You’ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will be worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics. You want a generic rhel clone list? Create one and post an announcement about it. If you want to talk about Rocky or Oracle Linux, use their lists. This list is for CentOS. I’m not thrilled with the direction CentOS is going, but I’m not going to poison the wells and salt the earth. The CentOS list has value for on topic conversation. > Again, Centos/Rocky/Oracle all share a similar-to-identical codebase, so most > of what's applicable to one will likely be applicable to all so I don't see > it as being a big deal. Perhaps there are going to be similar codebases, but the infrastructure and politics around each will vary widely. If you have a question that is codebase specific, then just ask it without talking about the distro it came from, but as soon as it becomes clear that it is infrastructure related, keep it on the appropriate list. — Jonathan Billings ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 21:53:01 -0600 Valeri Galtsev wrote: > I agree with your sentiment, John, but the fact that folks fled is due to > CentOS (owned by RedHat, of course) doing. And they use most logical way for > their discussion: the CentOS refugees ask their kin in quite logical place: > CentOS list, where they all were prospering in the past. We'll see discussion of Rocky Linux and Oracle Linux ramping up on this mailing list over the course of the next year for the above reason. You can stamp your little feet and say that such things don't belong here, or the better option is to read what you're interested in and participate in the discussions. Ignoring anything non-Centos and reading only Centos-specific threads will likely be possible too if you really insist since a majority of posters will probably put "Oracle" or "Rocky" or something like that into their subject lines anyway. Again, Centos/Rocky/Oracle all share a similar-to-identical codebase, so most of what's applicable to one will likely be applicable to all so I don't see it as being a big deal. -- MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Real D 3D Digital Cinema ~ www.melvilletheatre.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
> On Feb 5, 2021, at 7:27 PM, John R. Dennison wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 10:23:37AM -0600, Frank Cox wrote: >> >> Speaking for myself only, I have no problem with anyone posting Oracle >> Linux questions, answers or solutions in this mailing list. I think >> that as time goes on, OL and Rocky Linux will start to get more >> discussion and coverage here. Since they are all very similar to each >> other, most of the solutions for one will likely be applicable to all >> anyway and if there's a better alternative offered on one of the >> others, then that's worth knowing as well. > > This is a CentOS list. The other distros you mention have their own > venues for support and discussion and those should be used. I agree with your sentiment, John, but the fact that folks fled is due to CentOS (owned by RedHat, of course) doing. And they use most logical way for their discussion: the CentOS refugees ask their kin in quite logical place: CentOS list, where they all were prospering in the past. Incidentally, I for one do not blame CentOS in the fact that I have to move my workstations/numbercrunchers to different Linux (Debian). I could have analyzed the fact when it was announced that CentOS project is owned by RedHat, and should have expect potential turn. Not a big deal, servers are FreeBSD for long time already for different reason. But I can understand the folks for whom it turned out a big deal. Like the ones recommending their customers CentOS… Just my $0.02 Valeri > John > -- > "He'll sit here and say, 'Do this! Do that!' And nothing will happen. Poor > Ike. It won't be a bit like the army. He'll find it very frustrating." > > Harry Truman - shortly before the Eisenhower inauguration in 1952 > ___ > CentOS mailing list > CentOS@centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Thu, Feb 04, 2021 at 10:23:37AM -0600, Frank Cox wrote: > > Speaking for myself only, I have no problem with anyone posting Oracle > Linux questions, answers or solutions in this mailing list. I think > that as time goes on, OL and Rocky Linux will start to get more > discussion and coverage here. Since they are all very similar to each > other, most of the solutions for one will likely be applicable to all > anyway and if there's a better alternative offered on one of the > others, then that's worth knowing as well. This is a CentOS list. The other distros you mention have their own venues for support and discussion and those should be used. John -- "He'll sit here and say, 'Do this! Do that!' And nothing will happen. Poor Ike. It won't be a bit like the army. He'll find it very frustrating." Harry Truman - shortly before the Eisenhower inauguration in 1952 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
Thank you so for your kind response, very much appreciated. I was trying to access https://support.oracle.com/knowledge/Oracle%20Linux%20and%20Virtualization/2644753_1.html which, I understand if under support, but seems to be the only FreeIPA documentation I found on my search. Thank you all once again. Best regards Shamim On Thu, 4 Feb 2021, 16:24 Frank Cox, wrote: > On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 12:03:30 + > Shamim Shahriar wrote: > > > Apologies if this is considered unwelcome -- asking oracle question in > > centos group -- but a lot of centos Vs oracle is going on here so hoping > > this will not be shot down. > > Speaking for myself only, I have no problem with anyone posting Oracle > Linux questions, answers or solutions in this mailing list. I think that > as time goes on, OL and Rocky Linux will start to get more discussion and > coverage here. Since they are all very similar to each other, most of the > solutions for one will likely be applicable to all anyway and if there's a > better alternative offered on one of the others, then that's worth knowing > as well. > > -- > MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Real D 3D Digital Cinema ~ www.melvilletheatre.com > ___ > CentOS mailing list > CentOS@centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos > ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 12:03:30 + Shamim Shahriar wrote: > Apologies if this is considered unwelcome -- asking oracle question in > centos group -- but a lot of centos Vs oracle is going on here so hoping > this will not be shot down. Speaking for myself only, I have no problem with anyone posting Oracle Linux questions, answers or solutions in this mailing list. I think that as time goes on, OL and Rocky Linux will start to get more discussion and coverage here. Since they are all very similar to each other, most of the solutions for one will likely be applicable to all anyway and if there's a better alternative offered on one of the others, then that's worth knowing as well. -- MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Real D 3D Digital Cinema ~ www.melvilletheatre.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
Le 04/02/2021 à 13:03, Shamim Shahriar a écrit : > I am unable to access any of the oracle documentation I need, as it keeps > on asking for support identifier number, which, as far as I can tell, is > only available if I purchase an expensive support subscription. Everything in Oracle is free as in beer. No subscription needed. https://www.oracle.com/linux/technologies/ Cheers, Niki -- Microlinux - Solutions informatiques durables 7, place de l'église - 30730 Montpezat Site : https://www.microlinux.fr Blog : https://blog.microlinux.fr Mail : i...@microlinux.fr Tél. : 04 66 63 10 32 Mob. : 06 51 80 12 12 ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 1:04 PM Shamim Shahriar wrote: > > > Has anyone experienced that or is it me having the issue? If I have to pay > subscription, why not continue with RHEL subscription anyway? > > Would appreciate if someone could please confirm. Do you have a link that doesn't work? It seems I'm able to go here without any login authentication: https://docs.oracle.com/en/operating-systems/oracle-linux/8/install/ and in general (for 6 and 7 too) here: https://docs.oracle.com/en/operating-systems/oracle-linux/ Gianluca ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
[CentOS] Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation
Good afternoon everyone, hope you all are well. Apologies if this is considered unwelcome -- asking oracle question in centos group -- but a lot of centos Vs oracle is going on here so hoping this will not be shot down. I am unable to access any of the oracle documentation I need, as it keeps on asking for support identifier number, which, as far as I can tell, is only available if I purchase an expensive support subscription. Even obtaining a free oracle cloud account does not give you any access. I was trying to access oracle FreeIPA setup how to documentation, and even after many emails work oracle support over several weeks -- no resolution! They are not even clear as to what I need to do to obtain access -- all they are saying is I need a SI number!!! Has anyone experienced that or is it me having the issue? If I have to pay subscription, why not continue with RHEL subscription anyway? Would appreciate if someone could please confirm. Best regards Shamim ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
