Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum? [OFF TOPIC]

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Fri, May 27, 2016 8:25 am, James B. Byrne wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2016 10:51, Juan Bernhard wrote:
>>
>> El 26/05/2016 a las 11:39 a.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:
>>> I guess, it is just me in general unhappy about all Linuxes
>>> getting much less "UNIX"y lately.
>>
>> I feel you Valerei, im switching new server instalations to FreeBSD.
>> Im tired to spend useful time learning new ways (systemd, firewalld,
>> dnf, etc) to do the same old sh*t.
>>
>>
>
> We are doing exactly the same thing and for the same reasons.  We have
> been running RH or its derivatives since 1998 but now it is time for
> us to move on.
>

At some point these things reminded me the old sure way to defeat your
enemy (competitor) whom you can not defeat by force (by better product).
You just join him, then gradually lead him into the "black hole". I'm not
saying this _is_ what is happening, we will know that 5-10 years down the
road, but what I observe has all signs of this process. Luckily I migrated
my servers to UNIX several years ago (workstations still stay Linux
though).

Valeri

PS Thanks a lot to CentOS team for the great job you, guys and gals, are
doing! We really do use CentOS a lot for what it is good for!

>
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Valeri Galtsev
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University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[James B. Byrne]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 10:51, Juan Bernhard wrote:
>
> El 26/05/2016 a las 11:39 a.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:
>> I guess, it is just me in general unhappy about all Linuxes
>> getting much less "UNIX"y lately.
>
> I feel you Valerei, im switching new server instalations to FreeBSD.
> Im tired to spend useful time learning new ways (systemd, firewalld,
> dnf, etc) to do the same old sh*t.
>
>

We are doing exactly the same thing and for the same reasons.  We have
been running RH or its derivatives since 1998 but now it is time for
us to move on.


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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Juan Bernhard]

El 26/05/2016 a las 11:39 a.m., Valeri Galtsev escribió:

I guess, it is just me in general unhappy about all Linuxes
getting much less "UNIX"y lately.


I feel you Valerei, im switching new server instalations to FreeBSD. Im 
tired to spend useful time learning new ways (systemd, firewalld, dnf, 
etc) to do the same old sh*t.

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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 9:30 am, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> On 05/26/2016 08:45 AM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 5:17 am, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>>> On 05/26/2016 04:31 AM, Yamaban wrote:
 On Thu, 26 May 2016 08:00, James Hogarth wrote:
> On 26 May 2016 00:57, "SternData" wrote:
>> On 05/25/2016 06:43 PM, Always Learning wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2016-05-25 at 22:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>>>
 Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Fedora ("We love consulting all affected users")
>>> replacement
>>> could be named MUD.
>>>
>>> Now we await the System-D controlling interface ;-)
>>
>> There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when these changes
>> rolled into Fedora.  After a while, I got used to it and now it
>> seems
>> normal. Plus, if you type "yum update" it responds "what your really
>> should type is dnf update, but I'll do it for you anyway".
>
> There was a mail on the Fedora development list recently from one of
> the
> internal Red Hat RHEL yum guys.
>
> It implied that in RHEL the command would remain yum and not change
> to
> dnf,
> although the internals will no doubt do so at some point.

 Well, from what I've heard from some Red Hat RHEL Kernel guys, it will
 be
 likely in RHEL 8.x as default with a yum compat cli, but unlikely to
 get
 into RHEL 7.x as replacement for yum, and should stay confined to
 EPEL.
 The reason given was: "(DNF is) not quite Enterprise ready, yet. Lets
 look
 again during Fedora 25".

>>>
>>> Based on previous RHEL history I would agree with Yamaban's take
>>> (probably in RHEL 8.x, likely not in RHEL 7).  But Red Hat has been a
>>> bit less conservative with making changes to RHEL 7 than they were the
>>> previous version of RHEL.
>>>
>>> Still, for them to make a change there would need to be some driving
>>> force for that change (IMHO).  For example, if there were new
>>> technology
>>> areas (containers, cloud) where dnf had major functionality advantages
>>> over yum, then they might consider a change.  Otherwise, I just don't
>>> see it.
>>
>> How about their recent agreements with Microsoft? That would be enogh
>> driving force for them to account for all changes we observed so far
>> IMHO
>> (didn't look into dnf details so I exclude that for the moment from my
>> comment...).
>>
>> Valeri
>>
>
> Well, striking an agreement so that RHEL can run on the Azure Cloud
> (where SLES and Ubuntu and CentOS are already at) and on hyperv .. and
> working with them to make Windows run better on KVM as a VM to me makes
> perfect sense.  Other linux versions are already there (hyperv/azure)
> and their customers want a paid RHEL option .. and people also need to
> run Windows server for some things as a VM on RHEL KVM hosts.
>
> I certainly don't want to start a flame war either way, but people with
> customers need to do what their customers want .. and on both sides that
> was for things to work together in their enterprise from both companies.
>
> Of course, we can start a flame war and discuss how evil Microsoft is or
> how evil money is or how evil global warming is or any other number of
> things.  There will be many people on either side of all of those
> positions .. but I'm not sure this is the forum for those discussions.
>
> The bottom line for DNF, just like any other software that Red Hat
> releases is .. if they build it and make it the default in RHEL, it will
> become the default in CentOS .. we don't political or linux religious
> wars (like systemd, selinux) here.  We build whatever source code Red
> Hat releases when they release it.  Nothing more and nothing less.

Sorry, I didn't mean it sound the way it sounded... Should have used
"rant" tags. I guess, it is just me in general unhappy about all Linuxes
getting much less "UNIX"y lately. Nothing about Linux, mostly about me not
blending into "iPad generation", I figure.

My apologies about the noise.

Valeri

>
>>>
>>> But, I have been wrong before .. a lot .. so take that with a grain of
>>> salt :)
>
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 05/26/2016 08:45 AM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
> 
> On Thu, May 26, 2016 5:17 am, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>> On 05/26/2016 04:31 AM, Yamaban wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 May 2016 08:00, James Hogarth wrote:
 On 26 May 2016 00:57, "SternData" wrote:
> On 05/25/2016 06:43 PM, Always Learning wrote:
>> On Wed, 2016-05-25 at 22:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>>
>>> Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.
>>
>> Perhaps the Fedora ("We love consulting all affected users")
>> replacement
>> could be named MUD.
>>
>> Now we await the System-D controlling interface ;-)
>
> There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when these changes
> rolled into Fedora.  After a while, I got used to it and now it seems
> normal. Plus, if you type "yum update" it responds "what your really
> should type is dnf update, but I'll do it for you anyway".

 There was a mail on the Fedora development list recently from one of
 the
 internal Red Hat RHEL yum guys.

 It implied that in RHEL the command would remain yum and not change to
 dnf,
 although the internals will no doubt do so at some point.
>>>
>>> Well, from what I've heard from some Red Hat RHEL Kernel guys, it will
>>> be
>>> likely in RHEL 8.x as default with a yum compat cli, but unlikely to get
>>> into RHEL 7.x as replacement for yum, and should stay confined to EPEL.
>>> The reason given was: "(DNF is) not quite Enterprise ready, yet. Lets
>>> look
>>> again during Fedora 25".
>>>
>>
>> Based on previous RHEL history I would agree with Yamaban's take
>> (probably in RHEL 8.x, likely not in RHEL 7).  But Red Hat has been a
>> bit less conservative with making changes to RHEL 7 than they were the
>> previous version of RHEL.
>>
>> Still, for them to make a change there would need to be some driving
>> force for that change (IMHO).  For example, if there were new technology
>> areas (containers, cloud) where dnf had major functionality advantages
>> over yum, then they might consider a change.  Otherwise, I just don't
>> see it.
> 
> How about their recent agreements with Microsoft? That would be enogh
> driving force for them to account for all changes we observed so far IMHO
> (didn't look into dnf details so I exclude that for the moment from my
> comment...).
> 
> Valeri
> 

Well, striking an agreement so that RHEL can run on the Azure Cloud
(where SLES and Ubuntu and CentOS are already at) and on hyperv .. and
working with them to make Windows run better on KVM as a VM to me makes
perfect sense.  Other linux versions are already there (hyperv/azure)
and their customers want a paid RHEL option .. and people also need to
run Windows server for some things as a VM on RHEL KVM hosts.

I certainly don't want to start a flame war either way, but people with
customers need to do what their customers want .. and on both sides that
was for things to work together in their enterprise from both companies.

Of course, we can start a flame war and discuss how evil Microsoft is or
how evil money is or how evil global warming is or any other number of
things.  There will be many people on either side of all of those
positions .. but I'm not sure this is the forum for those discussions.

The bottom line for DNF, just like any other software that Red Hat
releases is .. if they build it and make it the default in RHEL, it will
become the default in CentOS .. we don't political or linux religious
wars (like systemd, selinux) here.  We build whatever source code Red
Hat releases when they release it.  Nothing more and nothing less.

>>
>> But, I have been wrong before .. a lot .. so take that with a grain of
>> salt :)



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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 5:17 am, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> On 05/26/2016 04:31 AM, Yamaban wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2016 08:00, James Hogarth wrote:
>>> On 26 May 2016 00:57, "SternData" wrote:
 On 05/25/2016 06:43 PM, Always Learning wrote:
> On Wed, 2016-05-25 at 22:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>
>> Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.
>
> Perhaps the Fedora ("We love consulting all affected users")
> replacement
> could be named MUD.
>
> Now we await the System-D controlling interface ;-)

 There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when these changes
 rolled into Fedora.  After a while, I got used to it and now it seems
 normal. Plus, if you type "yum update" it responds "what your really
 should type is dnf update, but I'll do it for you anyway".
>>>
>>> There was a mail on the Fedora development list recently from one of
>>> the
>>> internal Red Hat RHEL yum guys.
>>>
>>> It implied that in RHEL the command would remain yum and not change to
>>> dnf,
>>> although the internals will no doubt do so at some point.
>>
>> Well, from what I've heard from some Red Hat RHEL Kernel guys, it will
>> be
>> likely in RHEL 8.x as default with a yum compat cli, but unlikely to get
>> into RHEL 7.x as replacement for yum, and should stay confined to EPEL.
>> The reason given was: "(DNF is) not quite Enterprise ready, yet. Lets
>> look
>> again during Fedora 25".
>>
>
> Based on previous RHEL history I would agree with Yamaban's take
> (probably in RHEL 8.x, likely not in RHEL 7).  But Red Hat has been a
> bit less conservative with making changes to RHEL 7 than they were the
> previous version of RHEL.
>
> Still, for them to make a change there would need to be some driving
> force for that change (IMHO).  For example, if there were new technology
> areas (containers, cloud) where dnf had major functionality advantages
> over yum, then they might consider a change.  Otherwise, I just don't
> see it.

How about their recent agreements with Microsoft? That would be enogh
driving force for them to account for all changes we observed so far IMHO
(didn't look into dnf details so I exclude that for the moment from my
comment...).

Valeri

>
> But, I have been wrong before .. a lot .. so take that with a grain of
> salt :)
>
> Thanks,
> Johnny Hughes
>
>
>
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[James Hogarth]

On 26 May 2016 at 11:17, Johnny Hughes  wrote:

> On 05/26/2016 04:31 AM, Yamaban wrote:
> > On Thu, 26 May 2016 08:00, James Hogarth wrote:
> >> On 26 May 2016 00:57, "SternData" wrote:
> >>> On 05/25/2016 06:43 PM, Always Learning wrote:
>  On Wed, 2016-05-25 at 22:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> 
> > Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.
> 
>  Perhaps the Fedora ("We love consulting all affected users")
>  replacement
>  could be named MUD.
> 
>  Now we await the System-D controlling interface ;-)
> >>>
> >>> There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when these changes
> >>> rolled into Fedora.  After a while, I got used to it and now it seems
> >>> normal. Plus, if you type "yum update" it responds "what your really
> >>> should type is dnf update, but I'll do it for you anyway".
> >>
> >> There was a mail on the Fedora development list recently from one of the
> >> internal Red Hat RHEL yum guys.
> >>
> >> It implied that in RHEL the command would remain yum and not change to
> >> dnf,
> >> although the internals will no doubt do so at some point.
> >
> > Well, from what I've heard from some Red Hat RHEL Kernel guys, it will be
> > likely in RHEL 8.x as default with a yum compat cli, but unlikely to get
> > into RHEL 7.x as replacement for yum, and should stay confined to EPEL.
> > The reason given was: "(DNF is) not quite Enterprise ready, yet. Lets
> look
> > again during Fedora 25".
> >
>
> Based on previous RHEL history I would agree with Yamaban's take
> (probably in RHEL 8.x, likely not in RHEL 7).  But Red Hat has been a
> bit less conservative with making changes to RHEL 7 than they were the
> previous version of RHEL.
>
> Still, for them to make a change there would need to be some driving
> force for that change (IMHO).  For example, if there were new technology
> areas (containers, cloud) where dnf had major functionality advantages
> over yum, then they might consider a change.  Otherwise, I just don't
> see it.
>
> But, I have been wrong before .. a lot .. so take that with a grain of
> salt :)
>
>
>
To make it clear here is the specific link on the fedora-devel archives
discussing this:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/ALJVP7YTSEPC4HNH6JSFMFM6MCUP5HAT/

"Currently we're slated to keep yum as the primary name/command for package
management in RHEL. It may or may not be backed by dnf at some point; we're
still looking at the pros & cons and how to bring better compatibility if
we go down this path."

So my expectation is that RHEL8 will use dnf internally but the interface
will be called yum
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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Johnny Hughes]

On 05/26/2016 04:31 AM, Yamaban wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2016 08:00, James Hogarth wrote:
>> On 26 May 2016 00:57, "SternData" wrote:
>>> On 05/25/2016 06:43 PM, Always Learning wrote:
 On Wed, 2016-05-25 at 22:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:

> Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.

 Perhaps the Fedora ("We love consulting all affected users")
 replacement
 could be named MUD.

 Now we await the System-D controlling interface ;-)
>>>
>>> There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when these changes
>>> rolled into Fedora.  After a while, I got used to it and now it seems
>>> normal. Plus, if you type "yum update" it responds "what your really
>>> should type is dnf update, but I'll do it for you anyway".
>>
>> There was a mail on the Fedora development list recently from one of the
>> internal Red Hat RHEL yum guys.
>>
>> It implied that in RHEL the command would remain yum and not change to
>> dnf,
>> although the internals will no doubt do so at some point.
> 
> Well, from what I've heard from some Red Hat RHEL Kernel guys, it will be
> likely in RHEL 8.x as default with a yum compat cli, but unlikely to get
> into RHEL 7.x as replacement for yum, and should stay confined to EPEL.
> The reason given was: "(DNF is) not quite Enterprise ready, yet. Lets look
> again during Fedora 25".
> 

Based on previous RHEL history I would agree with Yamaban's take
(probably in RHEL 8.x, likely not in RHEL 7).  But Red Hat has been a
bit less conservative with making changes to RHEL 7 than they were the
previous version of RHEL.

Still, for them to make a change there would need to be some driving
force for that change (IMHO).  For example, if there were new technology
areas (containers, cloud) where dnf had major functionality advantages
over yum, then they might consider a change.  Otherwise, I just don't
see it.

But, I have been wrong before .. a lot .. so take that with a grain of
salt :)

Thanks,
Johnny Hughes





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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[James Hogarth]

On 26 May 2016 00:57, "SternData"  wrote:
>
> On 05/25/2016 06:43 PM, Always Learning wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2016-05-25 at 22:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> >
> >> Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.
> >
> > Perhaps the Fedora ("We love consulting all affected users") replacement
> > could be named MUD.
> >
> > Now we await the System-D controlling interface ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when these changes rolled
> into Fedora.  After a while, I got used to it and now it seems normal.
> Plus, if you type "yum update" it responds "what your really should type
> is dnf update, but I'll do it for you anyway".
>

There was a mail on the Fedora development list recently from one of the
internal Red Hat RHEL yum guys.

It implied that in RHEL the command would remain yum and not change to dnf,
although the internals will no doubt do so at some point.
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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[SternData]

On 05/25/2016 06:43 PM, Always Learning wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 2016-05-25 at 22:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> 
>> Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.
> 
> Perhaps the Fedora ("We love consulting all affected users") replacement
> could be named MUD.
> 
> Now we await the System-D controlling interface ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when these changes rolled
into Fedora.  After a while, I got used to it and now it seems normal.
Plus, if you type "yum update" it responds "what your really should type
is dnf update, but I'll do it for you anyway".

-- 
-- Steve
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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Always Learning]

On Wed, 2016-05-25 at 22:32 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:

> Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.

Perhaps the Fedora ("We love consulting all affected users") replacement
could be named MUD.

Now we await the System-D controlling interface ;-)




-- 
Regards,

Paul.
England, EU.  England's place is in the European Union.

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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[William A. Mahaffey III]

On 05/25/16 16:38, Timothy Murphy wrote:

Kenneth Porter wrote:


I saw mention of dnf in a blog article about installing a package on
CentOS. Further investigation revealed that Fedora is replacing yum with
dnf, apparently a new and better yum. But it wasn't clear if dnf was a

For the normal user (like me) dnf is neither better nor worse than yum.
In fact it is almost identical.

In my view, the introduction of a new name was completely unnecessary
and the cause of the only (small) complication with the changeover,
eg should I look in /etc/yum.repos.d/ or /etc/dnf.repos.d/ ?

Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.



Hear, hear 

--

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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Timothy Murphy]

Kenneth Porter wrote:

> I saw mention of dnf in a blog article about installing a package on
> CentOS. Further investigation revealed that Fedora is replacing yum with
> dnf, apparently a new and better yum. But it wasn't clear if dnf was a

For the normal user (like me) dnf is neither better nor worse than yum.
In fact it is almost identical.

In my view, the introduction of a new name was completely unnecessary
and the cause of the only (small) complication with the changeover,
eg should I look in /etc/yum.repos.d/ or /etc/dnf.repos.d/ ?

Also, yum had associations which it was sad to lose.

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
gayleard /at/ eircom.net
School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin


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Re: [CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Gordon Messmer]

On 05/25/2016 12:38 PM, Kenneth Porter wrote:
But it wasn't clear if dnf was a drop-in replacement or if some 
migration setup was required.


For users, it's a drop-in replacement.  If you write extensions, some 
migration is required, because the API has been cleaned up.


Is it supposed to work with CentOS or do we ignore it until some 
future release?


Users can safely ignore it until a future release.

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[CentOS] dnf replacing yum?

[Kenneth Porter]

I saw mention of dnf in a blog article about installing a package on 
CentOS. Further investigation revealed that Fedora is replacing yum with 
dnf, apparently a new and better yum. But it wasn't clear if dnf was a 
drop-in replacement or if some migration setup was required. Is it supposed 
to work with CentOS or do we ignore it until some future release?




I installed dnf with yum and tried installing another package with it and 
it complains:


[root@orifice ~]# dnf install certbot
Failed to open: 
/var/cache/dnf/x86_64/7/x86_64/7/epel/repodata/b3221500eaedf45b7ec0737a410cde7e3f09b49070c729449938b961ccbdf397-updateinfo.xml.bz2.


I don't install new packages often, but it does sound like dnf's new dep 
solver is a Good Thing when that's needed. 
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