Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Nicolas Kovacs]

Le 16/04/2017 à 22:46, Robert Moskowitz a écrit :
> That means loading gnome.  I use Xfce.  Much better battery life with Xfce.

On a side note (from a Vim user), Geany works perfectly under Xfce and
has no weird GNOME dependencies. I know because I maintain an
Xfce-centered distribution. (https://www.microlinux.eu)

Cheers,

Niki

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 04/16/2017 04:37 PM, Always Learning wrote:

On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 10:39 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"

And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.

Gedit works for me - webpages, PHP, init (with Vi) et cetera.


That means loading gnome.  I use Xfce.  Much better battery life with Xfce.


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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Always Learning]

On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 10:39 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

> >mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"

> And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.

Gedit works for me - webpages, PHP, init (with Vi) et cetera.



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Regards,

Paul.
England, EU.  England's place is in the European Union.

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 04/13/2017 03:01 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:

On Thu, April 13, 2017 1:38 pm, Mauricio Tavares wrote:

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 2:06 PM,   wrote:

Robert Moskowitz wrote:

On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like

eclipse, that needs 2GB to run... for an editor.

mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"

And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.
Using a editor that understands html tags so you can collapse ones not

being edited does make life simpler.  Also lets you know, indirectly,
when your copy and pasting messed up the tag pairing.

Yeah, well, I've tried word processors, and, years back, I tried

Quanta,

which was specifically for working on web pages, and the HTML generated by
all word processors sucks dead Mar-a-Lago roaches. And *all* of them want
to left-justify, even if there's an option not to, and you set that,

rather than leaving it properly indented.

Just to add a bit to discussion. There are tools (editors) to edit html
code for web pages. Looking at some html documents I see a lot of junk
added by these tools. Who will blame stupid program that is designed to
handle everything for doing that? Not me. But I do not what any junk
inside anything I wrote. Do you want "mozilla generator" in the hidden
field of your html document?


That is why I use Geany.  It gives you a very basic html template and 
you go from there.


I have been 'learning on the job' to make decent boxes for my commands, 
with bars when needed.


Still working on it and would love to have a copy to clipboard button, 
but all the various examples I have found are not working.



But I must confess: I do not write html or
php webpages (except for most trivial ones, or editing ones written by
someone else). And as Mark I use vi for that (and almost for everything,
fancy formatted printouts may be exemption). Will you be surprised by the
fact that some web servers are configured to not serve files ending with
tilde symbol "~"? As these will be served as text verbatim, and therefore
will disclose whateve you have inside file with the same name without
tilde. I know more than one web developer who use emacs, edits files in
situ (not elsewhere) and never even think of cleaning ~ files.

Valeri


   The forced left justify part reminds me of a conversation I had
with a vendor last year. It was something on the lines of "I know this

might come as a shock to you but there are people out there who has
phone numbers that are not exactly 9 digits long and postal codes with
letters and numbers."


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247





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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Cameron Smith]

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Valeri Galtsev 
wrote:

> On Thu, April 13, 2017 1:38 pm, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 2:06 PM,   wrote:
> >> Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> >>> On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
>  d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like
> eclipse, that needs 2GB to run... for an editor.
> mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"
> >>> And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.
> >>> Using a editor that understands html tags so you can collapse ones not
> being edited does make life simpler.  Also lets you know, indirectly,
> when your copy and pasting messed up the tag pairing.
> >> Yeah, well, I've tried word processors, and, years back, I tried
> Quanta,
> >> which was specifically for working on web pages, and the HTML generated
> by
> >> all word processors sucks dead Mar-a-Lago roaches. And *all* of them
> want
> >> to left-justify, even if there's an option not to, and you set that,
> rather than leaving it properly indented.
>
> Just to add a bit to discussion. There are tools (editors) to edit html
> code for web pages. Looking at some html documents I see a lot of junk
> added by these tools. Who will blame stupid program that is designed to
> handle everything for doing that? Not me. But I do not what any junk
> inside anything I wrote. Do you want "mozilla generator" in the hidden
> field of your html document? But I must confess: I do not write html or
> php webpages (except for most trivial ones, or editing ones written by
> someone else). And as Mark I use vi for that (and almost for everything,
> fancy formatted printouts may be exemption). Will you be surprised by the
> fact that some web servers are configured to not serve files ending with
> tilde symbol "~"? As these will be served as text verbatim, and therefore
> will disclose whateve you have inside file with the same name without
> tilde. I know more than one web developer who use emacs, edits files in
> situ (not elsewhere) and never even think of cleaning ~ files.
>
> Valeri
>
> >   The forced left justify part reminds me of a conversation I had
> > with a vendor last year. It was something on the lines of "I know this
> might come as a shock to you but there are people out there who has
> phone numbers that are not exactly 9 digits long and postal codes with
> letters and numbers."
> >
>
>
> 
> Valeri Galtsev
> Sr System Administrator
> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
> Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
> University of Chicago
> Phone: 773-702-4247
> 
>

I have been known to code complete html sites with pretty deep css in vi :)

I use Atom lately for any code work and like it.
https://atom.io/

Cameron
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Thu, April 13, 2017 1:38 pm, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 2:06 PM,   wrote:
>> Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>> On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
 d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like
eclipse, that needs 2GB to run... for an editor.
mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"
>>> And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.
>>> Using a editor that understands html tags so you can collapse ones not
being edited does make life simpler.  Also lets you know, indirectly,
when your copy and pasting messed up the tag pairing.
>> Yeah, well, I've tried word processors, and, years back, I tried
Quanta,
>> which was specifically for working on web pages, and the HTML generated by
>> all word processors sucks dead Mar-a-Lago roaches. And *all* of them want
>> to left-justify, even if there's an option not to, and you set that,
rather than leaving it properly indented.

Just to add a bit to discussion. There are tools (editors) to edit html
code for web pages. Looking at some html documents I see a lot of junk
added by these tools. Who will blame stupid program that is designed to
handle everything for doing that? Not me. But I do not what any junk
inside anything I wrote. Do you want "mozilla generator" in the hidden
field of your html document? But I must confess: I do not write html or
php webpages (except for most trivial ones, or editing ones written by
someone else). And as Mark I use vi for that (and almost for everything,
fancy formatted printouts may be exemption). Will you be surprised by the
fact that some web servers are configured to not serve files ending with
tilde symbol "~"? As these will be served as text verbatim, and therefore
will disclose whateve you have inside file with the same name without
tilde. I know more than one web developer who use emacs, edits files in
situ (not elsewhere) and never even think of cleaning ~ files.

Valeri

>   The forced left justify part reminds me of a conversation I had
> with a vendor last year. It was something on the lines of "I know this
might come as a shock to you but there are people out there who has
phone numbers that are not exactly 9 digits long and postal codes with
letters and numbers."
>



Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247





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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[m . roth]

Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 2:06 PM,   wrote:
>> Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>> On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
>>
 d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like
 eclipse, that needs 2GB to run... for an editor.

mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"
>>>
>>> And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.
>>>
>>> Using a editor that understands html tags so you can collapse ones not
>>> being edited does make life simpler.  Also lets you know, indirectly,
>>> when your copy and pasting messed up the tag pairing.
>>
>> Yeah, well, I've tried word processors, and, years back, I tried Quanta,
>> which was specifically for working on web pages, and the HTML generated
>> by all word processors sucks dead Mar-a-Lago roaches. And *all* of them
>> want to left-justify, even if there's an option not to, and you set that,
>> rather than leaving it properly indented.
>>
>   The forced left justify part reminds me of a conversation I had
> with a vendor last year. It was something on the lines of "I know this
> might come as a shock to you but there are people out there who has
> phone numbers that are not exactly 9 digits long and postal codes with
> letters and numbers."
>
Gosh! Wow! Who'd a thought that?! (Now let's see, can I remember my friend
in Canada's postal code without looking?)

   mark

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Mauricio Tavares]

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 2:06 PM,   wrote:
> Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>> On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:
>
>>> d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like
>>> eclipse, that needs 2GB to run... for an editor.
>>>
>>>mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"
>>
>> And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.
>>
>> Using a editor that understands html tags so you can collapse ones not
>> being edited does make life simpler.  Also lets you know, indirectly,
>> when your copy and pasting messed up the tag pairing.
>
> Yeah, well, I've tried word processors, and, years back, I tried Quanta,
> which was specifically for working on web pages, and the HTML generated by
> all word processors sucks dead Mar-a-Lago roaches. And *all* of them want
> to left-justify, even if there's an option not to, and you set that,
> rather than leaving it properly indented.
>
  The forced left justify part reminds me of a conversation I had
with a vendor last year. It was something on the lines of "I know this
might come as a shock to you but there are people out there who has
phone numbers that are not exactly 9 digits long and postal codes with
letters and numbers."

>   mark
>
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[m . roth]

Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

>> d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like
>> eclipse, that needs 2GB to run... for an editor.
>>
>>mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"
>
> And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.
>
> Using a editor that understands html tags so you can collapse ones not
> being edited does make life simpler.  Also lets you know, indirectly,
> when your copy and pasting messed up the tag pairing.

Yeah, well, I've tried word processors, and, years back, I tried Quanta,
which was specifically for working on web pages, and the HTML generated by
all word processors sucks dead Mar-a-Lago roaches. And *all* of them want
to left-justify, even if there's an option not to, and you set that,
rather than leaving it properly indented.

  mark

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 04/12/2017 02:08 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote:

d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like eclipse,
that
   needs 2GB to run... for an editor.

   mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"


And mine on medon.htt-consult.com done with Geany.

Using a editor that understands html tags so you can collapse ones not 
being edited does make life simpler.  Also lets you know, indirectly, 
when your copy and pasting messed up the tag pairing.



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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Leroy Tennison]

Speaking of vi, I'm amazed at just how powerful it is.  (And I'm not being 
sarcastic, there's not much I've searched for in regard to its capabilities 
that I haven't found).  No thread drift here...

- Original Message -
From: "m roth" <m.r...@5-cent.us>
To: "centos" <centos@centos.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:08:25 PM
Subject: Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

Andrew Holway wrote:
>>
>> Of course, to be fair, there may have been a *reason* for not doing it
>> that way before
>>
> Between the early 1990's and early 2000's the price of a GB of memory went
> from ~$100,000 to ~$1000*. I guess a lot of the design decisions made for
> things like init were focussed on this. In 1995 is was common for server
> platforms to have 32Mb ram whereas the kernel alone in my PC here at home
> is consuming just over 500MB. It seems reasonable that software components
> built in 1997 will not be fit for purpose in 2017.
>
> * According to perfunctory google search:
> http://www.statisticbrain.com/average-historic-price-of-ram/

a) I was speaking in much more general terms than just software.
b) Stuff built then will run unbelievable fast on modern systems - and no,
in the nineties,
  we were not manually swapping.
c) If it fulfils its intended purpose, why would you redefine it as not
fit for that
  purpose?
d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like eclipse,
that
  needs 2GB to run... for an editor.

  mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Jon LaBadie]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 08:31:29PM +0200, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:
> Le 12/04/2017 à 19:41, Andrew Holway a écrit :
> > Between the early 1990's and early 2000's the price of a GB of memory went
> > from ~$100,000 to ~$1000*. I guess a lot of the design decisions made for
> > things like init were focussed on this. In 1995 is was common for server
> > platforms to have 32Mb ram whereas the kernel alone in my PC here at home
> > is consuming just over 500MB. It seems reasonable that software components
> > built in 1997 will not be fit for purpose in 2017.
> 
> Back in 2013 I did some Linux training for a company in Montpellier. The
> first week the server racks hadn't been delivered yet, so we were stuck.
> In a cupboard, I found an antique Dell Poweredge 1300 server that was
> out of service, made around 1997 or so. I dusted it off, found a power
> cable, a monitor, a network cable and a keyboard and connected the
> thing. It had a P-III 500 MHz processor, 3 x 9 GB SCSI disks and a
> whooping 128 MB of RAM, and not a single USB port (only parallel).
> 

Similar, much earlier tale of my own.  Doing Intro Unix training
at a client site.  The classroom had PCs with Hummingbird's XDMCP
software to remotely connect to a monster HP unix system.  On
Monday arrival I learned their HP license expired over the weekend
and remote access was not possible.

I had my laptop, either a Pentium or P II, running Solaris x86.
I put it on the network and had the students point their XDMCP
to it.  Ran the first two days of class with 12 students plux
the console all running X graphical logins.  On Wednesday they
had us switch to the HP.  Some students asked if they could
switch back because the laptop seemed more responsive.

Jon
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Jon LaBadie]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 07:41:33PM +0200, Andrew Holway wrote:
> >
> > Of course, to be fair, there may have been a *reason* for not doing it
> > that way before
> >
> 
> Between the early 1990's and early 2000's the price of a GB of memory went
> from ~$100,000 to ~$1000*. I guess a lot of the design decisions made for
> things like init were focussed on this. In 1995 is was common for server
> platforms to have 32Mb ram whereas the kernel alone in my PC here at home
> is consuming just over 500MB. It seems reasonable that software components
> built in 1997 will not be fit for purpose in 2017.

Just another historic note.  Until System V, Release 4,
circa 1989 or 90, AT's Unix ran on computers with a
64KB memory space.  That was just the code though,
the data, static, dynamic, and stack were in a second
64KB space.  That was all the pdp-11 allowed.

The merger of BSD code with AT code in SVR4 pushed
it off of the pdp-11s.  But it still ran on things
like the AT 3B-20 which had a 1MB virtual memory
addressing scheme.

Jon
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Dave Stevens]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:59:41 -0500 (CDT)
"Valeri Galtsev"  wrote:

> On Wed, April 12, 2017 2:39 pm, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Andrew Holway
> >  wrote:  
> >>>
> >>> When Windows 2000 came out some called it "bloated pig". Some 6
> >>> years down
> >>> the road Linux started catching up ;-) Then we stopped laughing
> >>> about Windows.
> >>>  
> >>
> >> All in the name of progress..  
> >
> >   I have been told that Windows developers were taught not to
> > optimize their code for memory/cpu/etc since those could be solved
> > by throwing more hardware at it. Instead they should make clean
> > readable code. Not claiming that is exclusive to Windows or the
> > clean readable part is followed...
> >  
> 
> Continuing in the same spirit. Way back SELinux (before it made it
> into main stream kernel) had a competitor. LIDS. De-ciphers as Linux
> Intrusion Detection System (but name is confusing). Creature of
> Purdue University Computer science department. Basically LISD was a
> kernel patch that upon end of boot sequence demotes root account to
> privileges of user nobody. This makes system impregnable on the fly
> (but real pain to administer - any change can only be done as: shut
> down, change, boot). I was so impressed, I still remember about it.
> Never came to using it though. If it did, it might give big pain to
> NSA and friends. But SELinux won, and LIDS never made it into main
> stream kernel - to my regret. As far as SELinux is concerned, several
> people still think that several (how many?) thousands of extra code
> in the kernel may bring more harm than do good. Anyway, the last IMHO
> is where "tastes differ".
> 
> Valeri

the wikipedia confirms my memory that SELinux is a child of the NSA.
Is anyone astonished that this allowed them to hack into Linux?

d

> 
> 
> Valeri Galtsev
> Sr System Administrator
> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
> Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
> University of Chicago
> Phone: 773-702-4247
> 
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usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

- Ursula Le Guin
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Fred Smith]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 02:25:52PM -0700, John R Pierce wrote:
> On 4/12/2017 12:39 PM, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> >   I have been told that Windows developers were taught not to
> >optimize their code for memory/cpu/etc since those could be solved by
> >throwing more hardware at it. Instead they should make clean readable
> >code. Not claiming that is exclusive to Windows or the clean readable
> >part is followed...
> 
> 
> There is a good case to be made for avoiding 'premature
> optimization' in software design and development.

Yeah. Especially because (good) modern compilers can do an
amazing job of optimizing for you, enough so that you often
don't need to put any effort at all into it. then there are
those corner cases, wherein you DO.

-- 
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The Lord is like a strong tower. 
 Those who do what is right can run to him for safety.
--- Proverbs 18:10 (niv) -
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[John R Pierce]

On 4/12/2017 12:39 PM, Mauricio Tavares wrote:

   I have been told that Windows developers were taught not to
optimize their code for memory/cpu/etc since those could be solved by
throwing more hardware at it. Instead they should make clean readable
code. Not claiming that is exclusive to Windows or the clean readable
part is followed...



There is a good case to be made for avoiding 'premature optimization' in 
software design and development.



--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[m . roth]

Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Andrew Holway 
> wrote:
>>>
>>> When Windows 2000 came out some called it "bloated pig". Some 6 years
>>> down the road Linux started catching up ;-) Then we stopped laughing
about
>>> Windows.
>
>> All in the name of progress..
>
>   I have been told that Windows developers were taught not to
> optimize their code for memory/cpu/etc since those could be solved by
> throwing more hardware at it. Instead they should make clean readable
> code. Not claiming that is exclusive to Windows or the clean readable
> part is followed...

I read an interview 10? 15? years ago with Gates, and it was clear he was
a hardware junky.

 mark

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Wed, April 12, 2017 2:39 pm, Mauricio Tavares wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Andrew Holway 
> wrote:
>>>
>>> When Windows 2000 came out some called it "bloated pig". Some 6 years
>>> down
>>> the road Linux started catching up ;-) Then we stopped laughing about
>>> Windows.
>>>
>>
>> All in the name of progress..
>
>   I have been told that Windows developers were taught not to
> optimize their code for memory/cpu/etc since those could be solved by
> throwing more hardware at it. Instead they should make clean readable
> code. Not claiming that is exclusive to Windows or the clean readable
> part is followed...
>

Continuing in the same spirit. Way back SELinux (before it made it into
main stream kernel) had a competitor. LIDS. De-ciphers as Linux Intrusion
Detection System (but name is confusing). Creature of Purdue University
Computer science department. Basically LISD was a kernel patch that upon
end of boot sequence demotes root account to privileges of user nobody.
This makes system impregnable on the fly (but real pain to administer -
any change can only be done as: shut down, change, boot). I was so
impressed, I still remember about it. Never came to using it though. If it
did, it might give big pain to NSA and friends. But SELinux won, and LIDS
never made it into main stream kernel - to my regret. As far as SELinux is
concerned, several people still think that several (how many?) thousands
of extra code in the kernel may bring more harm than do good. Anyway, the
last IMHO is where "tastes differ".

Valeri


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Mauricio Tavares]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Andrew Holway  wrote:
>>
>> When Windows 2000 came out some called it "bloated pig". Some 6 years down
>> the road Linux started catching up ;-) Then we stopped laughing about
>> Windows.
>>
>
> All in the name of progress..

  I have been told that Windows developers were taught not to
optimize their code for memory/cpu/etc since those could be solved by
throwing more hardware at it. Instead they should make clean readable
code. Not claiming that is exclusive to Windows or the clean readable
part is followed...

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Andrew Holway]

>
> When Windows 2000 came out some called it "bloated pig". Some 6 years down
> the road Linux started catching up ;-) Then we stopped laughing about
> Windows.
>

All in the name of progress..
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Wed, April 12, 2017 1:31 pm, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:
> Le 12/04/2017 à 19:41, Andrew Holway a écrit :
>> Between the early 1990's and early 2000's the price of a GB of memory
went
>> from ~$100,000 to ~$1000*. I guess a lot of the design decisions made
for
>> things like init were focussed on this. In 1995 is was common for
server
>> platforms to have 32Mb ram whereas the kernel alone in my PC here at
home
>> is consuming just over 500MB. It seems reasonable that software
components
>> built in 1997 will not be fit for purpose in 2017.
>
> Back in 2013 I did some Linux training for a company in Montpellier. The
first week the server racks hadn't been delivered yet, so we were stuck.
In a cupboard, I found an antique Dell Poweredge 1300 server that was out
of service, made around 1997 or so. I dusted it off, found a power cable,
a monitor, a network cable and a keyboard and connected the thing. It had
a P-III 500 MHz processor, 3 x 9 GB SCSI disks and a whooping 128 MB of
RAM, and not a single USB port (only parallel).
>
> I happened to have the three CD-Rom set of Slackware 14.0 32-bit, so I
gave that a spin. The installation took quite some time, but after the
initial reboot, I managed to login, and the base system took no more than
15 MB RAM.
>
> So the first week we began working the course on this machine (which we
aptly named "grossebertha", because it was a noisy monster). After a week
or so, our new hardware arrived, and since the Windows trainer complained
about "8 GB RAM not being enough for a Windows server
installation", we decided just to nag him a bit to see how far we could
take the course on our old machine. In the end, we had NTP, Dnsmasq,
Samba, NIS+NFS, a LAMP stack, Squid, SquidGuard and SquidAnalyzer, and a
few other things running on this old monster.

When Windows 2000 came out some called it "bloated pig". Some 6 years down
the road Linux started catching up ;-) Then we stopped laughing about
Windows.

Valeri

>
> Cheers,
>
> Niki
>
> --
> Microlinux - Solutions informatiques durables
> 7, place de l'église - 30730 Montpezat
> Web  : http://www.microlinux.fr
> Mail : i...@microlinux.fr
> Tél. : 04 66 63 10 32
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Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247








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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Nicolas Kovacs]

Le 12/04/2017 à 19:41, Andrew Holway a écrit :
> Between the early 1990's and early 2000's the price of a GB of memory went
> from ~$100,000 to ~$1000*. I guess a lot of the design decisions made for
> things like init were focussed on this. In 1995 is was common for server
> platforms to have 32Mb ram whereas the kernel alone in my PC here at home
> is consuming just over 500MB. It seems reasonable that software components
> built in 1997 will not be fit for purpose in 2017.

Back in 2013 I did some Linux training for a company in Montpellier. The
first week the server racks hadn't been delivered yet, so we were stuck.
In a cupboard, I found an antique Dell Poweredge 1300 server that was
out of service, made around 1997 or so. I dusted it off, found a power
cable, a monitor, a network cable and a keyboard and connected the
thing. It had a P-III 500 MHz processor, 3 x 9 GB SCSI disks and a
whooping 128 MB of RAM, and not a single USB port (only parallel).

I happened to have the three CD-Rom set of Slackware 14.0 32-bit, so I
gave that a spin. The installation took quite some time, but after the
initial reboot, I managed to login, and the base system took no more
than 15 MB RAM.

So the first week we began working the course on this machine (which we
aptly named "grossebertha", because it was a noisy monster). After a
week or so, our new hardware arrived, and since the Windows trainer
complained about "8 GB RAM not being enough for a Windows server
installation", we decided just to nag him a bit to see how far we could
take the course on our old machine. In the end, we had NTP, Dnsmasq,
Samba, NIS+NFS, a LAMP stack, Squid, SquidGuard and SquidAnalyzer, and a
few other things running on this old monster.

Cheers,

Niki

-- 
Microlinux - Solutions informatiques durables
7, place de l'église - 30730 Montpezat
Web  : http://www.microlinux.fr
Mail : i...@microlinux.fr
Tél. : 04 66 63 10 32
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[m . roth]

Andrew Holway wrote:
>>
>> Of course, to be fair, there may have been a *reason* for not doing it
>> that way before
>>
> Between the early 1990's and early 2000's the price of a GB of memory went
> from ~$100,000 to ~$1000*. I guess a lot of the design decisions made for
> things like init were focussed on this. In 1995 is was common for server
> platforms to have 32Mb ram whereas the kernel alone in my PC here at home
> is consuming just over 500MB. It seems reasonable that software components
> built in 1997 will not be fit for purpose in 2017.
>
> * According to perfunctory google search:
> http://www.statisticbrain.com/average-historic-price-of-ram/

a) I was speaking in much more general terms than just software.
b) Stuff built then will run unbelievable fast on modern systems - and no,
in the nineties,
  we were not manually swapping.
c) If it fulfils its intended purpose, why would you redefine it as not
fit for that
  purpose?
d) And then there stuff that I'm not sure of the purpose... like eclipse,
that
  needs 2GB to run... for an editor.

  mark "my web pages proudly built in vi!"

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Andrew Holway]

>
> Of course, to be fair, there may have been a *reason* for not doing it
> that way before
>

Between the early 1990's and early 2000's the price of a GB of memory went
from ~$100,000 to ~$1000*. I guess a lot of the design decisions made for
things like init were focussed on this. In 1995 is was common for server
platforms to have 32Mb ram whereas the kernel alone in my PC here at home
is consuming just over 500MB. It seems reasonable that software components
built in 1997 will not be fit for purpose in 2017.

* According to perfunctory google search:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/average-historic-price-of-ram/
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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[m . roth]

Valeri Galtsev wrote:
> On Wed, April 12, 2017 8:07 am, Alice Wonder wrote:
>> On 04/12/2017 05:59 AM, Leroy Tennison wrote:
>>> Why don't we discuss something ***less***
>>> controversial, like politics or religion?
>>
>> Even when I'm the one complaining (and I don't about systemd), I'm
>> always reminded of some TV clip I saw when I was young and can't place
>> of a bunch of old people complaining :
>>
>> "Well we've never done it that way before"

Of course, to be fair, there may have been a *reason* for not doing it
that way before
>
> To their credit one can say: some older people do realize that they didn't
> fit into "iPad generation". ;-)
>
I a) actively dislike Apple, and b) I want a *real* keyboard.

mark "tease me about my age, and I'll beat you with my cane!"

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Re: [CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Valeri Galtsev]

On Wed, April 12, 2017 8:07 am, Alice Wonder wrote:
> On 04/12/2017 05:59 AM, Leroy Tennison wrote:
>> Why don't we discuss something ***less***
>> controversial, like politics or religion?
>>
>
> Even when I'm the one complaining (and I don't about systemd), I'm
> always reminded of some TV clip I saw when I was young and can't place
> of a bunch of old people complaining :
>
> "Well we've never done it that way before"

To their credit one can say: some older people do realize that they didn't
fit into "iPad generation". ;-)

Valeri


Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247

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[CentOS] humor (was Re: OT: systemd Poll)

[Alice Wonder]

On 04/12/2017 05:59 AM, Leroy Tennison wrote:

Why don't we discuss something ***less*** controversial, like 
politics or religion?



Even when I'm the one complaining (and I don't about systemd), I'm 
always reminded of some TV clip I saw when I was young and can't place 
of a bunch of old people complaining :


"Well we've never done it that way before"

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