Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
Ned Slider wrote: That's just a by-product of the fact that it's never been a goal of upstream to make RHEL a self-hosting distribution. It's not a deliberate act designed to thwart rebuilders, be it Oracle or CentOS or anyone else. And even if it were, then it obviously failed given Oracle, SL and now CentOS have managed to successfully rebuild RHEL-6 (minus trademarks and artwork). I did say harder, not hard or impossible. Your comment came across, at least to me, as if Red Hat had deliberately tried to make it harder to rebuild RHEL with some changes they made to 6, and that's simply not the case. Even Oracle had to work on it for 4-5 months before release, enough for Red Hat to assert it self as the way to go if you want the real thing. That and change in how Kernel is distributed now (all patches are inside one tar file, and not separate as they are in 5.x) tells me that something IS going on, but limited enough not to show Red Hat as the bad wolf. They are business owned by greedy shareholders after all is said and done. Anyhow, that is my personal impression and opinion, sharpened by many years of double standards, blackmails, attacks, armed conflicts, corrupted politicians and common thieves masked as fighters for democracy, civil and ascended NGO's telling us we are all bunch of murderers, etc., my country (Serbia) had endured (and still endures) in last 20 years, all because we refused to surrender to NATO. In first world war we lost 1/3 of the population fighting against Axis countries. In second we lost 1/4 of population fighting against same Axis and bombings of western side of Alied forces at the end of the war. Then in 1990 we endured western-intelligence-agencies-enticed civil war. Then we were bombed in operation Merciful Angel in 1999 that bombed our hospitals with cassette and uranium bombs, and you are now telling me that world is in fact pink and corporations all play fair... If I am wrong than I will have to start visiting shrink(s). Ljubomir ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 10:23:57AM +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Diatribe about Serbia removed. Is this really the appropriate list for this type of political pontification? John -- The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. -- Winston Churchill pgpa6AeKTUNwb.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sun, 2011-07-10 at 10:23 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Anyhow, that is my personal impression and opinion, sharpened by many years of double standards, blackmails, attacks, armed conflicts, corrupted politicians and common thieves masked as fighters for democracy, civil and ascended NGO's telling us we are all bunch of murderers, etc., my country (Serbia) had endured (and still endures) in last 20 years, all because we refused to surrender to NATO. In first world war we lost 1/3 of the population fighting against Axis countries. In second we lost 1/4 of population fighting against same Axis and bombings of western side of Alied forces at the end of the war. Then in 1990 we endured western-intelligence-agencies-enticed civil war. Then we were bombed in operation Merciful Angel in 1999 that bombed our hospitals with cassette and uranium bombs, and you are now telling me that world is in fact pink and corporations all play fair... If I am wrong than I will have to start visiting shrink(s). Having been very emotional distraught circa 1992-1994 when I repeatedly argued passionately with my work colleagues that western (i.e. British) aircraft attacking Serbian tanks and artillery would stop the massacre of thousands of civilians from all parts of Yugoslavia, I wish to assert that genocide and mass murders by any bunch of people is fundamentally wrong. It is still happening today in Africa and probably elsewhere. I saw the horrific scenes from Yugoslavia on television night after night while the rest of the world was uncaring and inactive despite the urgency of a determined military response to protect the civilians. When limited UN Forces intervened, I remember with pride a British army colonel (now a Conservative MP (member of the British Parliament)) angrily telling the murdering military that unless they stopped he would instruct his force to open fire on them. I visited Beograd during the UN sanctions and witnessed the run-down conditions and the ad hoc petrol filling stations along the main roads - cars parked at 90 degrees to the road with a large plastic container on the bonnet. They said Hungarian petrol (bezine) was best because it contained less water. I stayed at the Beograd hotel where people were gunned-down. I had a meeting in a building in the middle of the freezing winter with all the windows wide open because the stench of dead bodies from the floor beneath us was overpowering. I am glad peace has come and I hope Europe never ever again tolerates such a shameful period in its history. Being friends, working together and respecting others is best. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
John R. Dennison wrote: On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 10:23:57AM +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Diatribe about Serbia removed. Is this really the appropriate list for this type of political pontification? I was one mail away from being shunned as just another crackpot conspiracy theorist because I always look for ulterior motives. People who never been exposed to systematic lying can not comprehend the dept of lies or deceptions and are quick to dismiss anything that is not in their comfort zone. So my intention was to say that I been through a lot since I was 16-17, lied or deceived constantly and in order to stay sane and safe learned to view any appearance from multiple standpoints. But if I had said it like my last sentence, I would be challenged that it could not be so bad and that I must indeed be paranoid. So I added just a small part of what is sitting on my back and forming my opinion. The actual point I wanted to make is not what western world has done to my country, that has been, is now (Libya for instance) and will be, and I am not moping about that. But looking from the other side of the presented truth (by corporate media) I have witnessed deliberate and opened lies from every single news media from *every* country including mine and from politicians and corporations, so perception that (even) Red Hat is not trying to undermine those he sees as enemies/competitors is for me false. Since I can only speak from personal experience, I focused on events in my former and current country. For next few paragraphs forget parties involved and weigh the facts. This is can bee found somewhere on the net. For example, one picture from Bosnian war where you see Serbian soldiers in in front of the barb wire and hungry civilians behind it was presented to entire world as horrible genocide comparable to Nazi's. Truth: Serbian television responded to that picture by broadcasting video footage of that same barb wire at the same time at the same place. Video showed soldiers standing *inside* the small open storage surrounded by barb wire and civilians standing around it leaning on to the wire and talking to the members of the press, both western and local. Civilians were some starved refugees given food and crud shelter. I am sure you can find countless examples just like this one, in each war and on the every side of those wars. I for one have seen numerous accounts in last 20 years only in 600km radius (ex Yugoslavia). But we are oblivious to them and believe news media unless we actually witness some open lie, at witch time we forever stop trusting people explicitly. I hope this clears things a bit and convince you I was focusing on deception and not the any political agenda. Ljubomir ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sunday, July 10, 2011 10:41 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: The actual point I wanted to make is not what western world has done to my country, that has been, is now (Libya for instance) and will be, and I am not moping about that. But looking from the other side of the presented truth (by corporate media) I have witnessed deliberate and opened lies from every single news media from *every* country including mine and from politicians and corporations, so perception that (even) Red Hat is not trying to undermine those he sees as enemies/competitors is for me false. I hope this clears things a bit and convince you I was focusing on deception and not the any political agenda. Redhat does not try to undermine enemies/competitors. They get open source and GPL and they have an entire business model based on these two concepts. They do not need to undermine anybody because that is impossible with open source and especially so with software under GPL. Redhat has gone BEYOND the GPL. The GPL only requires that you make the source and build scripts available to those that you distribute to. Nor are you required to make the source/build scripts available for free. The fact that you can get your grubby hands on the source rpms without even downloading RHEL let alone use/install RHEL is testimony to the fact that Redhat does not need to and has never tried to undermine any would be enemy/competitor. Think about it. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
Always Learning wrote: Having been very emotional distraught circa 1992-1994 when I repeatedly argued passionately with my work colleagues that western (i.e. British) aircraft attacking Serbian tanks and artillery would stop the massacre of thousands of civilians from all parts of Yugoslavia, I wish to assert that genocide and mass murders by any bunch of people is fundamentally wrong. It is still happening today in Africa and probably elsewhere. I will be very brief, but we can communicate off-list. That was misconception. JNA, Yugoslav army, was at that time multi-national, mixed on purpose from all sides of the country. In Slovenia, first to secede, JNA soldiers were sent in tanks without ammunition and were gunned down by sedition soldiers. I saw the horrific scenes from Yugoslavia on television night after night while the rest of the world was uncaring and inactive despite the urgency of a determined military response to protect the civilians. Civilians were fighting each other. JNA was actually a buffer at the first part of the civil war but was attacked for their superior weapons. When limited UN Forces intervened, I remember with pride a British army colonel (now a Conservative MP (member of the British Parliament)) angrily telling the murdering military that unless they stopped he would instruct his force to open fire on them. I visited Beograd during the UN sanctions and witnessed the run-down conditions and the ad hoc petrol filling stations along the main roads - cars parked at 90 degrees to the road with a large plastic container on the bonnet. They said Hungarian petrol (bezine) was best because it contained less water. I stayed at the Beograd hotel where people were gunned-down. I had a meeting in a building in the middle of the freezing winter with all the windows wide open because the stench of dead bodies from the floor beneath us was overpowering. That must have been some organized crime related shooting. Belgrade was 200km away from fighting. I am glad peace has come and I hope Europe never ever again tolerates such a shameful period in its history. Being friends, working together and respecting others is best. I totally agree on this one. I apologies for such off-topic violation to everybody, I am done with this tread on-list. Please send replies to my personal mail if you feel the need to respond. Ljubomir ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sun, 2011-07-10 at 16:41 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: For example, one picture from Bosnian war where you see Serbian soldiers in in front of the barb wire and hungry civilians behind it was presented to entire world as horrible genocide comparable to Nazi's. Truth: Serbian television responded to that picture by broadcasting video footage of that same barb wire at the same time at the same place. Video showed soldiers standing *inside* the small open storage surrounded by barb wire and civilians standing around it leaning on to the wire and talking to the members of the press, both western and local. Civilians were some starved refugees given food and crud shelter. Journalists - some are good, some insipid and crap and some are bad - have been known to deliberately pose photographs. Some of these fakes have been deliberately misleading. Some of the fakes were motivated by a genuine desire to attempt to convey the seriousness of a situation which they were able to photograph or film themselves. The war, hopefully the last in Europe, is over. We can not live in the past. Now is time for reconciliation and peace. Soon Serbia will be the 30th? member of the European Union. Remember the words to the EU anthem about brothers (Ode to Joy from Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th Symphony. Van Beethoven is a Dutch name yet Beethoven, born in Bonn, was a German.) European Unity means peace. Best regards, Paul. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sun, 2011-07-10 at 22:55 +0800, Christopher Chan wrote: The fact that you can get your grubby hands on the source rpms Hey, his hands were clean :-) -- With best regards, Paul. England, EU. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
Christopher Chan wrote: On Sunday, July 10, 2011 10:41 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: The actual point I wanted to make is not what western world has done to my country, that has been, is now (Libya for instance) and will be, and I am not moping about that. But looking from the other side of the presented truth (by corporate media) I have witnessed deliberate and opened lies from every single news media from *every* country including mine and from politicians and corporations, so perception that (even) Red Hat is not trying to undermine those he sees as enemies/competitors is for me false. I hope this clears things a bit and convince you I was focusing on deception and not the any political agenda. Redhat does not try to undermine enemies/competitors. They get open source and GPL and they have an entire business model based on these two concepts. They do not need to undermine anybody because that is impossible with open source and especially so with software under GPL. Redhat has gone BEYOND the GPL. The GPL only requires that you make the source and build scripts available to those that you distribute to. Nor are you required to make the source/build scripts available for free. The fact that you can get your grubby hands on the source rpms without even downloading RHEL let alone use/install RHEL is testimony to the fact that Redhat does not need to and has never tried to undermine any would be enemy/competitor. Think about it. I see it as excellent business model that helped them be where they are now. The benefit for us/world is indisputable, and I am deeply grateful for that, but be aware that their business is based on giving *service* to their customers, and that board of directors is responsible for bringing ever increasing profit margin to their shareholders. They have found excellent balance, but were pressed from Oracle and they needed more time to distinctively separate from the crowd so customers are reminded that they *are* the leader. But it is only my view of the events, and I might be wrong. Or we both might be partially right. Ljubomir ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
Always Learning wrote: The war, hopefully the last in Europe, is over. We can not live in the past. Now is time for reconciliation and peace. Soon Serbia will be the 30th? member of the European Union. Remember the words to the EU anthem about brothers (Ode to Joy from Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th Symphony. Van Beethoven is a Dutch name yet Beethoven, born in Bonn, was a German.) AFAIK, Europe will ask us to give up on our province Kosovo in order to enter the Union. If Europe do that, there is not a single Serbian politician brave enough to accept that and end his carrier if not even his life. Please lets go off-list with this. Thanks. Ljubomir ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
Christopher Chan wrote: Redhat has gone BEYOND the GPL. The GPL only requires that you make the source and build scripts available to those that you distribute to. Nor are you required to make the source/build scripts available for free. The fact that you can get your grubby hands on the source rpms without even downloading RHEL let alone use/install RHEL is testimony to the fact that Redhat does not need to and has never tried to undermine any would be enemy/competitor. Think about it. 1. Red Hat, commercially, has to survive as a financially viable entity. Meaning it must make a profit. 2. Competitors especially large ones like Oracle potentially, if not actually, threaten Red Hat's profit making ability. The potential or actual damage to Red Hat's profits may be small but the more established Oracle's Red Hat Linux becomes, the greater the financial damage to the essential profit making ability of Red Hat. Reduced profits at Red Hat can adversely affect Red Hat's operation and inevitably Centos will suffer to our detriment. 3. Therefore, contrary to your assertion Redhat does not need to and has never tried to undermine any would be enemy/competitor. Think about it. Red Hat must always consider how to undermine any would be enemy/competitor because, ultimately, Red Hat's own survival depends on exactly that type of action. No profits = No Red Hat. -- With best regards, Paul. England, EU. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
Always Learning wrote: 3. Therefore, contrary to your assertion Redhat does not need to and has never tried to undermine any would be enemy/competitor. Think about it. Red Hat must always consider how to undermine any would be enemy/competitor because, ultimately, Red Hat's own survival depends on exactly that type of action. No profits = No Red Hat. Hey, you are on my side. You should be replying to Chan, not me :-D you: sorry me: it's ok, no harm done (just to save few mails ;-) ) Ljubomir ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sun, 2011-07-10 at 17:29 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Hey, you are on my side. We are Europeans so we should be bothers AND we both like Centos :-) -- With best regards, Paul. England, EU. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:31 PM, Always Learning wrote: On Sun, 2011-07-10 at 17:29 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Hey, you are on my side. We are Europeans so we should be bothers AND we both like Centos :-) OH yes, you lot should be BOTHERS. :-D ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:23 PM, Always Learning wrote: Christopher Chan wrote: Redhat has gone BEYOND the GPL. The GPL only requires that you make the source and build scripts available to those that you distribute to. Nor are you required to make the source/build scripts available for free. The fact that you can get your grubby hands on the source rpms without even downloading RHEL let alone use/install RHEL is testimony to the fact that Redhat does not need to and has never tried to undermine any would be enemy/competitor. Think about it. 1. Red Hat, commercially, has to survive as a financially viable entity. Meaning it must make a profit. 2. Competitors especially large ones like Oracle potentially, if not actually, threaten Red Hat's profit making ability. The potential or actual damage to Red Hat's profits may be small but the more established Oracle's Red Hat Linux becomes, the greater the financial damage to the essential profit making ability of Red Hat. Reduced profits at Red Hat can adversely affect Red Hat's operation and inevitably Centos will suffer to our detriment. 3. Therefore, contrary to your assertion Redhat does not need to and has never tried to undermine any would be enemy/competitor. Think about it. Red Hat must always consider how to undermine any would be enemy/competitor because, ultimately, Red Hat's own survival depends on exactly that type of action. No profits = No Red Hat. Redhat closing their bugzilla to clients only or merging all patches to the kernel they maintain for RHEL into one and sans comments is undermining the competition? Oracle can still get the source rpm and rebuild the very same kernel that Redhat puts out there. Redhat making Oracle do their own legwork as respects kernel maintenance and finding/fixing bugs outside of Redhat knowledge is undermining the competition? You just don't get Redhat do you? ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On 09/07/11 19:09, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Digimer wrote: I think there is a business case to be made for CentOS, from the point of view of Red Hat. My experience has been that a lot of people/companies start out on CentOS. After a while, those that succeed and do well eventually want to switch to Red Hat proper. As good as CentOS is, by it's very nature, it will always lag behind RHEL in so far as updates are concerned. Given all this; I think there is an argument for Red Hat wanting to assist CentOS. As we saw with this release, the delay drove people away from EL. I am sure many went to Debian or other non-EL distributions. Each of these defections is another potential future customer lost to Red Hat. My view is that problem arose when Oracle came into picture. They are aggressively steeling Red Hat customers using Rad Hat EL source. That is very possibly why Red Hat made recompiling EL source much harder, which reflected to CentOS team unprepared for such change. That's nonsense. Red Hat did not (deliberately) make recompiling the RHEL source harder, they made accessing specific knowledge base and bug related information harder for those who are not customers - a move designed to make it more difficult for companies such as Oracle to support RHEL and steal customers from Red Hat. The issues that sometimes make it difficult to recompile occasional RHEL packages have always existed and most likely always will. Filing a bug normally results in the issue being fixed, whatever it may be. The vast majority of packages in RHEL recompile without issue. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
Ned Slider wrote: On 09/07/11 19:09, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Digimer wrote: I think there is a business case to be made for CentOS, from the point of view of Red Hat. My experience has been that a lot of people/companies start out on CentOS. After a while, those that succeed and do well eventually want to switch to Red Hat proper. As good as CentOS is, by it's very nature, it will always lag behind RHEL in so far as updates are concerned. Given all this; I think there is an argument for Red Hat wanting to assist CentOS. As we saw with this release, the delay drove people away from EL. I am sure many went to Debian or other non-EL distributions. Each of these defections is another potential future customer lost to Red Hat. My view is that problem arose when Oracle came into picture. They are aggressively steeling Red Hat customers using Rad Hat EL source. That is very possibly why Red Hat made recompiling EL source much harder, which reflected to CentOS team unprepared for such change. That's nonsense. Red Hat did not (deliberately) make recompiling the RHEL source harder, they made accessing specific knowledge base and bug related information harder for those who are not customers - a move designed to make it more difficult for companies such as Oracle to support RHEL and steal customers from Red Hat. The issues that sometimes make it difficult to recompile occasional RHEL packages have always existed and most likely always will. Filing a bug normally results in the issue being fixed, whatever it may be. The vast majority of packages in RHEL recompile without issue. What about C4 and C5 being able to recompile on beta versions but not C6? Ljubomir ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On 09/07/11 19:35, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Ned Slider wrote: On 09/07/11 19:09, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: My view is that problem arose when Oracle came into picture. They are aggressively steeling Red Hat customers using Rad Hat EL source. That is very possibly why Red Hat made recompiling EL source much harder, which reflected to CentOS team unprepared for such change. That's nonsense. Red Hat did not (deliberately) make recompiling the RHEL source harder, they made accessing specific knowledge base and bug related information harder for those who are not customers - a move designed to make it more difficult for companies such as Oracle to support RHEL and steal customers from Red Hat. The issues that sometimes make it difficult to recompile occasional RHEL packages have always existed and most likely always will. Filing a bug normally results in the issue being fixed, whatever it may be. The vast majority of packages in RHEL recompile without issue. What about C4 and C5 being able to recompile on beta versions but not C6? That's just a by-product of the fact that it's never been a goal of upstream to make RHEL a self-hosting distribution. It's not a deliberate act designed to thwart rebuilders, be it Oracle or CentOS or anyone else. And even if it were, then it obviously failed given Oracle, SL and now CentOS have managed to successfully rebuild RHEL-6 (minus trademarks and artwork). Your comment came across, at least to me, as if Red Hat had deliberately tried to make it harder to rebuild RHEL with some changes they made to 6, and that's simply not the case. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Working with the upstream vendor
On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Digimer li...@alteeve.com wrote: On 07/09/2011 01:32 PM, Karanbir Singh wrote: yes, we all clearly take that on board - I hope the changes we are bringing in helps clear that, and prevent this sort of a situation. But there are still lots of places for improvements, and over the next few months lets try and address all of those. - KB Sorry for thread-jacking, but I wanted to start this thread in relation to your comment. As I understand it, a lot of the delay came from reproducing Red Hat's build environment. That being needed for the binary compatibility. With each new major release, the number of packages, and in turn, the amount of complexity grows. Is that a correct understanding? If so, then EL7 will be even harder to sort out and will lead to an even longer delay in release. I think there is a business case to be made for CentOS, from the point of view of Red Hat. My experience has been that a lot of people/companies start out on CentOS. After a while, those that succeed and do well eventually want to switch to Red Hat proper. As good as CentOS is, by it's very nature, it will always lag behind RHEL in so far as updates are concerned. Given all this; I think there is an argument for Red Hat wanting to assist CentOS. As we saw with this release, the delay drove people away from EL. I am sure many went to Debian or other non-EL distributions. Each of these defections is another potential future customer lost to Red Hat. If Red Hat could be convinced to help the CentOS team with things like setting up their build environment, they would help foster this potential customer base while investing minimal time and effort. Has anyone in the CentOS team approached Red Hat to discuss some sort of arrangement like this? As an anecdotal example; We've built our entire infrastructure on CentOS. Now, our clients who are doing well, we are moving to Red Hat proper while still using a lot of CentOS internally and for smaller clients. It's a very smooth fit and transition, thanks to CentOS's binary compatibility. Just an idea. Thanks for the hard work and I'm anxious to play with CentOS 6! If Red Hat really wanted or cared about the customers you list here, it could simply make RHEL a free download with security updates. That would require very little spending on their side compared to duplicating their build infrastructure at CentOS and supporting both environments (eg. transfering their knowledge, what makes their product tick, to a open source project where it could be copied by companies seeking to profit from it). One could make a point that doing that would be a burden for Red Hat in terms of additional head count required to support the non-paying customers and the infrastructure costs, something they would have a hard time promoting internally to shareholders. Let's imagine that all CentOS contributors could be motivated to help RH in such imaginary efforts... RH would be giving direct control of the quality of its product to outsiders. Something already accomplished with Fedora. Your idea is nice and it's looking at the right perspective, IMHO. However, I don't feel it'll have much traction within Red Hat. Right now I think it'd be more practical to request any help that is needed (besides servers and hosting) and organize this work to reap the benefits of a larger contributor base. But I'm just a CentOS user that hasn't contributed anything besides promoting it and helping other users, so my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. -- Giovanni Tirloni ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
