RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship products. As for dropping a product when it's outlived its useful life, that's just good business. That does not make a company bad. Generator's life had come to an end when it became apparent that client side power was practicle with the advances in Flash. CF is a much better server side solution to power that. Dropping Generator was not a bad idea on MM's part. It was a very good idea. Good business. Dave ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
I agree. Here is a simple example for anyone to play with. http://www.fishermenstudios.com/mmugex.zip Clint -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 8:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship products. As for dropping a product when it's outlived its useful life, that's just good business. That does not make a company bad. Generator's life had come to an end when it became apparent that client side power was practicle with the advances in Flash. CF is a much better server side solution to power that. Dropping Generator was not a bad idea on MM's part. It was a very good idea. Good business. Dave ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Have you tried using Flash Remoting with anything other than CFMX? Have you tried marshalling complex objects? Have you tried marshalling objects with large blocks of text? Have you tried any of the above on mixed platforms i.e. Windows and Linux? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship products. As for dropping a product when it's outlived its useful life, that's just good business. That does not make a company bad. Generator's life had come to an end when it became apparent that client side power was practicle with the advances in Flash. CF is a much better server side solution to power that. Dropping Generator was not a bad idea on MM's part. It was a very good idea. Good business. Dave ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Matt, What we have done is created 2 great applications under budget and before the deadline - increasing our margin by 15%. We have clients begging for more. That makes the ROI on flash remoting looking pretty darn good. In fact, I'm looking to hire a full time Flash guy in January. Your points may be valid. Yes flash remoting is version 1.0, but Flash remoting has great promise - and great functionality now. What if everyone gave up on HTML in the early days because of its lack of this or that. So we have to go a different route when we need mixed platforms and marshalling complex objects. And as for remoting with something other than CFMX - why should I? Part of my business is pitching that particular platform - something we do quite successfully I might add. Some of us are simply replacing clunky HTML interfaces with a brand new user experience - and flash remoting really is a superior choice for that task. When YOU scream about something I say wait and see. When my clients start screaming - then I'll worry g. -mk -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Have you tried using Flash Remoting with anything other than CFMX? Have you tried marshalling complex objects? Have you tried marshalling objects with large blocks of text? Have you tried any of the above on mixed platforms i.e. Windows and Linux? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
I certainly didn't advocate not using Flash Remoting. I was simply making others aware of problems with it and reminding them that it is a 1.0 product. I did this because of a post exclaiming the perfect marriage of CF and Flash. I felt that your post attempted to push under the rug the issues I raised by suggesting that it works great for you and therefore should work great for others. That might not have been your intent, but that is how I read it. I feel this list allows for us to share our experiences with our peers hopefully allowing the community to avoid the pitfalls others have made. I was simply doing my duty to explain the pitfalls we have ran into. It is great that your particular applications didn't run into the same issues, but that doesn't change the fact that the issues exist. We will continue to use Flash Remoting because it is a solution for us. However, in hindsight I wouldn't have relied so heavily on it knowing what I know now. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Matt, What we have done is created 2 great applications under budget and before the deadline - increasing our margin by 15%. We have clients begging for more. That makes the ROI on flash remoting looking pretty darn good. In fact, I'm looking to hire a full time Flash guy in January. Your points may be valid. Yes flash remoting is version 1.0, but Flash remoting has great promise - and great functionality now. What if everyone gave up on HTML in the early days because of its lack of this or that. So we have to go a different route when we need mixed platforms and marshalling complex objects. And as for remoting with something other than CFMX - why should I? Part of my business is pitching that particular platform - something we do quite successfully I might add. Some of us are simply replacing clunky HTML interfaces with a brand new user experience - and flash remoting really is a superior choice for that task. When YOU scream about something I say wait and see. When my clients start screaming - then I'll worry g. -mk -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Have you tried using Flash Remoting with anything other than CFMX? Have you tried marshalling complex objects? Have you tried marshalling objects with large blocks of text? Have you tried any of the above on mixed platforms i.e. Windows and Linux? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
No No No Yes -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Have you tried using Flash Remoting with anything other than CFMX? Have you tried marshalling complex objects? Have you tried marshalling objects with large blocks of text? Have you tried any of the above on mixed platforms i.e. Windows and Linux? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship products. As for dropping a product when it's outlived its useful life, that's just good business. That does not make a company bad. Generator's life had come to an end when it became apparent that client side power was practicle with the advances in Flash. CF is a much better server side solution to power that. Dropping Generator was not a bad idea on MM's part. It was a very good idea. Good business. Dave ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Oh I definitely agree. One has to understand this is a 1.0. Buyer beware...was just expressing my fondness of remoting within our realm...So far, so good. Your original post was quite vague...would have been more helpful to include the specifics in the initial message... Cheers, Stace -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:32 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) I certainly didn't advocate not using Flash Remoting. I was simply making others aware of problems with it and reminding them that it is a 1.0 product. I did this because of a post exclaiming the perfect marriage of CF and Flash. I felt that your post attempted to push under the rug the issues I raised by suggesting that it works great for you and therefore should work great for others. That might not have been your intent, but that is how I read it. I feel this list allows for us to share our experiences with our peers hopefully allowing the community to avoid the pitfalls others have made. I was simply doing my duty to explain the pitfalls we have ran into. It is great that your particular applications didn't run into the same issues, but that doesn't change the fact that the issues exist. We will continue to use Flash Remoting because it is a solution for us. However, in hindsight I wouldn't have relied so heavily on it knowing what I know now. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Matt, What we have done is created 2 great applications under budget and before the deadline - increasing our margin by 15%. We have clients begging for more. That makes the ROI on flash remoting looking pretty darn good. In fact, I'm looking to hire a full time Flash guy in January. Your points may be valid. Yes flash remoting is version 1.0, but Flash remoting has great promise - and great functionality now. What if everyone gave up on HTML in the early days because of its lack of this or that. So we have to go a different route when we need mixed platforms and marshalling complex objects. And as for remoting with something other than CFMX - why should I? Part of my business is pitching that particular platform - something we do quite successfully I might add. Some of us are simply replacing clunky HTML interfaces with a brand new user experience - and flash remoting really is a superior choice for that task. When YOU scream about something I say wait and see. When my clients start screaming - then I'll worry g. -mk -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Have you tried using Flash Remoting with anything other than CFMX? Have you tried marshalling complex objects? Have you tried marshalling objects with large blocks of text? Have you tried any of the above on mixed platforms i.e. Windows and Linux? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Matt, can you provide examples of what you've run into with these issues? I'm a UI developer and I don't recognize the term marshalling. Thanks, -Kevin -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Have you tried using Flash Remoting with anything other than CFMX? Have you tried marshalling complex objects? Have you tried marshalling objects with large blocks of text? Have you tried any of the above on mixed platforms i.e. Windows and Linux? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship products. As for dropping a product when it's outlived its useful life, that's just good business. That does not make a company bad. Generator's life had come to an end when it became apparent that client side power was practicle with the advances in Flash. CF is a much better server side solution to power that. Dropping Generator was not a bad idea on MM's part. It was a very good idea. Good business. Dave ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
marshalling communications (US -ll- or -l-) The process of packing one or more items of data into a message buffer, prior to transmitting that message buffer over a communication channel. The packing process not only collects together values which may be stored in non-consecutive memory locations but also converts data of different types into a standard representation agreed with the recipient of the message. Each language has its own idea of what data types are and how they are represented. Whenever you want to pass data between different languages you need to have an agreed upon intermediary. Each language can then convert the data to and from the intermediary thus allowing inter-language communication. As such, when I speak of objects being corrupted during the marshalling process I am simply stating that the object sent from one end didn't end up on the other as expected. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:kgraeme;facstaff.wisc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Matt, can you provide examples of what you've run into with these issues? I'm a UI developer and I don't recognize the term marshalling. Thanks, -Kevin -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Have you tried using Flash Remoting with anything other than CFMX? Have you tried marshalling complex objects? Have you tried marshalling objects with large blocks of text? Have you tried any of the above on mixed platforms i.e. Windows and Linux? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Thanks, that was a lot clearer than the information I was wading through on MSDN about it. -Kevin -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:11 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) marshalling communications (US -ll- or -l-) The process of packing one or more items of data into a message buffer, prior to transmitting that message buffer over a communication channel. The packing process not only collects together values which may be stored in non-consecutive memory locations but also converts data of different types into a standard representation agreed with the recipient of the message. Each language has its own idea of what data types are and how they are represented. Whenever you want to pass data between different languages you need to have an agreed upon intermediary. Each language can then convert the data to and from the intermediary thus allowing inter-language communication. As such, when I speak of objects being corrupted during the marshalling process I am simply stating that the object sent from one end didn't end up on the other as expected. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:kgraeme;facstaff.wisc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Matt, can you provide examples of what you've run into with these issues? I'm a UI developer and I don't recognize the term marshalling. Thanks, -Kevin -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Have you tried using Flash Remoting with anything other than CFMX? Have you tried marshalling complex objects? Have you tried marshalling objects with large blocks of text? Have you tried any of the above on mixed platforms i.e. Windows and Linux? Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Mark A. Kruger - CFG [mailto:mkruger;cfwebtools.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:54 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Ditto - we've done 2 aps with rave reviews and we are working on 2 more. -Original Message- From: Stacy Young [mailto:Stacy.Young;sfcommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because
Re: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Interesting to note - thanks for the heads up ;) At 10:40 PM 12/11/02 -0500, you wrote: Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship products. As for dropping a product when it's outlived its useful life, that's just good business. That does not make a company bad. Generator's life had come to an end when it became apparent that client side power was practicle with the advances in Flash. CF is a much better server side solution to power that. Dropping Generator was not a bad idea on MM's part. It was a very good idea. Good business. Dave ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship products. As for dropping a product when it's outlived its useful life, that's just good business. That does not make a company bad. Generator's life had come to an end when it became apparent that client side power was practicle with the advances in Flash. CF is a much better server side solution to power that. Dropping Generator was not a bad idea on MM's part. It was a very good idea. Good business. Dave ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day)
Remoting rocks. -Original Message- From: Tilbrook, Peter [mailto:Peter.Tilbrook;abcb.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Flash Remoting (was RE: SOT: Sad Day) Memories of claims about Spectra's capabilities come to mind. Flash Remoting certainly is a timely idea that could enable some very impressive applications. However, the marriage of Flash and CF is far from perfect. People talk of the possibilities and show examples that wow developers, but the truth is that organizations who are trying to build complex applications that make use of Flash Remoting are finding serious problems. We have been working with Flash Remoting since the beginning and have found it to be a constant struggle. Complex objects are corrupted and line endings are changed as data is marshaled. Flash Remoting itself is different in functionality and behavior from CFMX to J2EE to .NET. The documentation is spares to non-existent, while at the same time misleading on occasion. Worst of all, Macromedia has only acknowledged out findings and has offered no solutions. Flash Remoting is a great idea, but it simply isn't all there. Like any 1.0 product, buyer beware. I look forward to the day when the issues are fixed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: David Hannum (Ohio University) [mailto:hannum;ohio.edu] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 7:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Sad Day I'll back you up. MM has a long history of abandoning products. Everyone seems to act like CF is invincible, yet it was sold by Allaire a little over a year ago. ~~ Do you think MM will keep CF around if it starts to tank? Phat chance. If the software doesn't sail, these captains jump before the women and children. I know I'm not the only one who learned Generator. :) MM bought Allaire, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because there was so much right with it. When you can do as much and more with CFMX and Flash MX than you could with Generator, with much less cost and far less server overhead, why shouldn't you abandon Generator? The cfm/fla marriage is perfect. Cost to performance and capability, it's positioned to be the greatest thing since soft butter! If you've read the postings of people who attended DevCon, you'll notice an extreme optimism among CF'ers. MM is taking CF Flash to the lead in a new wave of internet applications. And the neat part is, MM is making it possible for PHP, ASP and Java to play too! I was very skeptical when MM purchased Allaire. But they keep showing me a stronger and stronger commitment. I have no trouble staying with MM. They've shown that they are making CF one of their flagship products. As for dropping a product when it's outlived its useful life, that's just good business. That does not make a company bad. Generator's life had come to an end when it became apparent that client side power was practicle with the advances in Flash. CF is a much better server side solution to power that. Dropping Generator was not a bad idea on MM's part. It was a very good idea. Good business. Dave ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
