Re: [CMake] Visual Studio + Ninja?

[Robert Dailey]

Thanks for the feedback. I know for sure that you can create
"Makefile" projects in Visual Studio, that do nothing but run
commands. You can even still have files in the project itself, to
allow you to edit those files (even though they won't actually build).

I think CMake can use this functionality already, it just isn't setup
to treat Visual Studio as an extra generator like most other IDEs.

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 3:18 AM, Nagy-Egri Máté Ferenc
<csiga.b...@aol.com> wrote:
> Short version: no.
>
>
>
> Long version: Visual Studio is heavily built around MSBuild as the back-end
> of execution of various tasks. While theoretically it could be done that
> MSBuild only acts as a relay and calls into Ninja scripts, you would lose
> the entire feature set of Solution Explorer, which is quite a large portion
> of the IDE. (Using CMake does preclude using most of it though.) MS is
> looking into deeper CMake integration into their IDE, but the exec back-end
> will most likely be MSBuild.
>
>
>
> Should you really want to achieve this, you would need support from both
> CMake side and VS side. You would need to develop an Add-In with a custom
> project type (CMake+Ninja) and hook up most Solution Explorer entries to
> generate not MSBuild but Ninja script portions. And from CMake you would
> need a generator for this mixed generator type. It could be done, but it’s a
> lot of effort. Given the performance of MSBuild (which is not that bad
> compared to Ninja), the benefits would only be substantial in enourmous
> projects. MS generally looks into increasing build throughput by integrating
> IncrediBuild into their IDE.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Feladó: Robert Dailey
> Elküldve: 2016. március 2., szerda 21:45
> Címzett: CMake
> Tárgy: [CMake] Visual Studio + Ninja?
>
>
>
> Right now I am using a toolchain file to setup cmake to build my C++
>
> code against Android NDK. I also have several custom targets for
>
> running 'ant' commands for the java portions.
>
>
>
> I can use the Ninja generator to generate the build scripts to make my
>
> builds work fine. However, I'd love to be able to use Visual Studio on
>
> Windows as my IDE. However, there is no "Visual Studio - Ninja"
>
> generator that I can see. Is there a way to make Visual Studio wrap
>
> the Ninja scripts and simply execute them? that way I can use it to
>
> edit code and invoke builds.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --
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Re: [CMake] Visual Studio + Ninja?

[Nagy-Egri Máté Ferenc via CMake]

Short version: no.

Long version: Visual Studio is heavily built around MSBuild as the back-end of 
execution of various tasks. While theoretically it could be done that MSBuild 
only acts as a relay and calls into Ninja scripts, you would lose the entire 
feature set of Solution Explorer, which is quite a large portion of the IDE. 
(Using CMake does preclude using most of it though.) MS is looking into deeper 
CMake integration into their IDE, but the exec back-end will most likely be 
MSBuild.

Should you really want to achieve this, you would need support from both CMake 
side and VS side. You would need to develop an Add-In with a custom project 
type (CMake+Ninja) and hook up most Solution Explorer entries to generate not 
MSBuild but Ninja script portions. And from CMake you would need a generator 
for this mixed generator type. It could be done, but it’s a lot of effort. 
Given the performance of MSBuild (which is not that bad compared to Ninja), the 
benefits would only be substantial in enourmous projects. MS generally looks 
into increasing build throughput by integrating IncrediBuild into their IDE.



Feladó: Robert Dailey
Elküldve: 2016. március 2., szerda 21:45
Címzett: CMake
Tárgy: [CMake] Visual Studio + Ninja?

Right now I am using a toolchain file to setup cmake to build my C++
code against Android NDK. I also have several custom targets for
running 'ant' commands for the java portions.

I can use the Ninja generator to generate the build scripts to make my
builds work fine. However, I'd love to be able to use Visual Studio on
Windows as my IDE. However, there is no "Visual Studio - Ninja"
generator that I can see. Is there a way to make Visual Studio wrap
the Ninja scripts and simply execute them? that way I can use it to
edit code and invoke builds.

Thanks in advance.
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[CMake] Visual Studio + Ninja?

[Robert Dailey]

Right now I am using a toolchain file to setup cmake to build my C++
code against Android NDK. I also have several custom targets for
running 'ant' commands for the java portions.

I can use the Ninja generator to generate the build scripts to make my
builds work fine. However, I'd love to be able to use Visual Studio on
Windows as my IDE. However, there is no "Visual Studio - Ninja"
generator that I can see. Is there a way to make Visual Studio wrap
the Ninja scripts and simply execute them? that way I can use it to
edit code and invoke builds.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: [cmake-developers] [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[Stephen Kelly]

James Johnston wrote:

>> > it would be useful to have Visual Studio available as an "Extra" CMake
>> > generator.  For example, specification of "Visual Studio 2015 - Ninja"
>> 
>> This functionality sounds reasonable but the name of the extra/generator
>> pair looks funny when spelled out that way.  We should consider having
>> another way to specify the extra generator.
> 
> This name is consistent with the other extra generators:

... however the design is not.

The 'extra generators' do their generation after the 'real' makefile or 
ninja generator.

Your proposal seems to be something different design-wise. From what I 
understand, you are proposing something which would need to do different 
things during the 'real' generate.

In terms of name though, it might not matter that IDE and non-IDE 'extra' 
generators are implemented in completely different ways.

> But I agree it is just confusing at this point.  Maybe this format could
> be deprecated in favor of a new cmake.exe switch to specify an extra
> generator.

Perhaps. It seems Xcode+Ninja could also be a valid pairing.

Thanks,

Steve.



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Re: [cmake-developers] [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[James Johnston]

> -Original Message-
> From: cmake-developers [mailto:cmake-developers-boun...@cmake.org]
> On Behalf Of Brad King
> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 15:00
> To: cmake-developers@cmake.org
> Subject: Re: [cmake-developers] [CMake] Visual Studio   -
> Ninja Generator
> 
> On 09/02/2015 03:34 PM, James Johnston wrote:
> > useful if the Visual Studio generators in CMake were refactored
> > somewhat
> 
> Even without the C# motivation I think factoring out a "MSBuild" generator
> infrastructure internally will be useful.  Currently we call it "VS 10"
> because it happened to be the first version to use MSBuild project files.
> Are you proposing to have some kind of internal object model for the
> MSBuild project files to separate their construction from the actual
> generation?

Right, something like that.

Another motivation: if somebody ever wanted to write a generator for
Embarcadero C++ Builder projects... guess what format the project files are
in... MSBuild...  this otherwise has nothing to do with VStudio...

Again, not something I'm working on right now but just putting some ideas
out there. :)

> 
> > it would be useful to have Visual Studio available as an "Extra" CMake
> > generator.  For example, specification of "Visual Studio 2015 - Ninja"
> 
> This functionality sounds reasonable but the name of the extra/generator
> pair looks funny when spelled out that way.  We should consider having
> another way to specify the extra generator.

This name is consistent with the other extra generators:
http://www.cmake.org/cmake/help/v3.3/manual/cmake-generators.7.html#id12

"[Extra] generator names have the form  -
."

But I agree it is just confusing at this point.  Maybe this format could be
deprecated in favor of a new cmake.exe switch to specify an extra generator.

Best regards,

James Johnston

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Re: [cmake-developers] [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[Brad King]

On 09/02/2015 03:34 PM, James Johnston wrote:
> useful if the Visual Studio generators in CMake were refactored somewhat

Even without the C# motivation I think factoring out a "MSBuild" generator
infrastructure internally will be useful.  Currently we call it "VS 10"
because it happened to be the first version to use MSBuild project files.
Are you proposing to have some kind of internal object model for the MSBuild
project files to separate their construction from the actual generation?

> it would be useful to have Visual Studio available as an "Extra" CMake
> generator.  For example, specification of "Visual Studio 2015 - Ninja"

This functionality sounds reasonable but the name of the extra/generator
pair looks funny when spelled out that way.  We should consider having
another way to specify the extra generator.

-Brad

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Re: [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[James Johnston]

Hi,

The problem with /MP in cl.exe, /CGTHREADS in link.exe, and /MAXCPUCOUNT in 
msbuild.exe is they don't communicate with each other, potentially leading to 
massive over/undersubscription of the system.  I would love it if Microsoft 
could get this mishmash cleaned up somehow so they can all communicate and not 
oversubscribe the system.  (Out-of-the-box, Visual C++ ought to have this 
straightened out).  In theory it would be faster than Ninja because the /MP 
switch reduces forking overhead and fixed overhead initialization cl.exe by 
batch building.

In the meantime, Ninja seems faster in practice, because it can properly avoid 
oversubscription with building individual C++ files and entire projects in 
parallel (whereas cl.exe and msbuild.exe cannot). 

(One problem with link.exe /CGTHREADS though is that Ninja needs to be told how 
many threads link.exe will actually use, so that Ninja doesn't oversubscribe.  
I'm not aware of a way to make Ninja do that though.  You can use pools to 
restrict to one link at a time, but moderate oversubscription will still happen 
with the concurrent cl.exe instances.)

Best regards,

James Johnston

From: CMake [mailto:cmake-boun...@cmake.org] On Behalf Of Hendrik Sattler
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 15:49
To: Guillaume Dumont; cmake@cmake.org
Subject: Re: [CMake] Visual Studio   - Ninja Generator

Hi,

did you really enable parallel compiling in VS with /MP24 or the like? Note 
that using devenv to build uses the number from the IDE user settings but using 
msbuild needs a command line option.

Else just create a custom target that calls cmake for ninja and afterwards 
ninja itself in yet another build tree. you can limit the creation of that 
target to if(MSVC_IDE).

HS

Am 31. August 2015 16:35:01 MESZ, schrieb Guillaume Dumont 
<dumont.guilla...@gmail.com>:
Hi all, 
I would like to know what kind of effort would it take to generate a Visual 
Studio generator that bypasses the normal MSBuild build and uses Ninja instead. 
I have been working on different projects which build much faster with ninja 
than MSBuild (several orders of magnitude on a machine with 24 cores). Still I 
like to use the Visual Studio environment to use the debugger. Using ninja is 
especially useful for projects with a lot of CUDA files which are built 
sequentially for every target using MSVS.
I would like to contribute but I don't really know where to start and if such 
an effort already exists.


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Re: [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[James Johnston]

h C# project - even when using 
non-VS generators like Ninja.  The Ninja build rule for a C# project would just 
be to invoke MSBuild.exe and build that one project.  (Only generate projects, 
not solutions.)  But this requires the ability for a CMake language to invoke 
the MSBuild-generating code inside CMake to spit out a Visual Studio project 
for each C# target.  Benefit: now CMake doesn't reimplement undocumented 
behavior of Microsoft's MSBuild targets; we just use them directly as a black 
box.

Best regards,

James Johnston

From: CMake [mailto:cmake-boun...@cmake.org] On Behalf Of Guillaume Dumont
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 16:49
To: Gonzalo
Cc: cmake@cmake.org
Subject: Re: [CMake] Visual Studio   - Ninja Generator

@Hendrik Sattler
I have not experimented with the /MP flag that much, but this won't solve my 
problem when the project contains a lot of CUDA files. The /MP flag as not 
effect there. 
Yes I could indeed create a custom build target and create additional build 
trees to build using ninja in there but this is suboptimal in my opinion.

@Gonzalo
Yes this is precisely what I do but then you only get the ninja build files. No 
solution for debugging etc.
My question is more about the difficulty of creating a new generator that makes 
the use of ninja as transparent as possible to the user instead of writing 
custom CMake code to do this in my own projects.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Gonzalo <ggarr...@gmail.com> wrote:
s it has changed names a couple of times).  That shoul




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=
dumont.guilla...@gmail.com

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Re: [cmake-developers] [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[James Johnston]

h C# project - even when using 
non-VS generators like Ninja.  The Ninja build rule for a C# project would just 
be to invoke MSBuild.exe and build that one project.  (Only generate projects, 
not solutions.)  But this requires the ability for a CMake language to invoke 
the MSBuild-generating code inside CMake to spit out a Visual Studio project 
for each C# target.  Benefit: now CMake doesn't reimplement undocumented 
behavior of Microsoft's MSBuild targets; we just use them directly as a black 
box.

Best regards,

James Johnston

From: CMake [mailto:cmake-boun...@cmake.org] On Behalf Of Guillaume Dumont
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 16:49
To: Gonzalo
Cc: cm...@cmake.org
Subject: Re: [CMake] Visual Studio   - Ninja Generator

@Hendrik Sattler
I have not experimented with the /MP flag that much, but this won't solve my 
problem when the project contains a lot of CUDA files. The /MP flag as not 
effect there. 
Yes I could indeed create a custom build target and create additional build 
trees to build using ninja in there but this is suboptimal in my opinion.

@Gonzalo
Yes this is precisely what I do but then you only get the ninja build files. No 
solution for debugging etc.
My question is more about the difficulty of creating a new generator that makes 
the use of ninja as transparent as possible to the user instead of writing 
custom CMake code to do this in my own projects.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Gonzalo <ggarr...@gmail.com> wrote:
s it has changed names a couple of times).  That shoul




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=
dumont.guilla...@gmail.com

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Re: [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[Hendrik Sattler]

Hi,

did you really enable parallel compiling in VS with /MP24 or the like? Note 
that using devenv to build uses the number from the IDE user settings but using 
msbuild needs a command line option.

Else just create a custom target that calls cmake for ninja and afterwards 
ninja itself in yet another build tree. you can limit the creation of that 
target to if(MSVC_IDE).

HS


Am 31. August 2015 16:35:01 MESZ, schrieb Guillaume Dumont 
:
>Hi all,
>
>I would like to know what kind of effort would it take to generate a
>Visual
>Studio generator that bypasses the normal MSBuild build and uses Ninja
>instead. I have been working on different projects which build much
>faster
>with ninja than MSBuild (several orders of magnitude on a machine with
>24
>cores). Still I like to use the Visual Studio environment to use the
>debugger. Using ninja is especially useful for projects with a lot of
>CUDA
>files which are built sequentially for every target using MSVS.
>
>I would like to contribute but I don't really know where to start and
>if
>such an effort already exists.
>
>-- 
>Guillaume Dumont
>=
>dumont.guilla...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>Powered by www.kitware.com
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>Please keep messages on-topic and check the CMake FAQ at:
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>more information on each offering, please visit:
>
>CMake Support: http://cmake.org/cmake/help/support.html
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Re: [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[Gonzalo]

El 31/08/15 a las 11:35, Guillaume Dumont escribió:

Hi all,
Using ninja is especially useful for projects with a lot of CUDA files 
which are built sequentially for every target using MSVS.


I would like to contribute but I don't really know where to start and 
if such an effort already exists.



Hi, Guillaume.

Currently cmake offers support for Ninja Makefiles.  You need to set up 
your build environment by running the microsoft setenv.bat file (or 
whatever is called in your version of msdev, as it has changed names a 
couple of times).  That should allow cmake to find the proper compiler.


Then, if you specify:

$ cd 
$ mkdir ninja_build
$ cd ninja_build
$ cmake .. -G Ninja

You will get ninja files for your project.

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Re: [CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[Guillaume Dumont]

@Hendrik Sattler

I have not experimented with the /MP flag that much, but this won't solve
my problem when the project contains a lot of CUDA files. The /MP flag as
not effect there.

Yes I could indeed create a custom build target and create additional build
trees to build using ninja in there but this is suboptimal in my opinion.

@Gonzalo

Yes this is precisely what I do but then you only get the ninja build
files. No solution for debugging etc.

My question is more about the difficulty of creating a new generator that
makes the use of ninja as transparent as possible to the user instead of
writing custom CMake code to do this in my own projects.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Gonzalo  wrote:

> s it has changed names a couple of times).  That shoul





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=
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[CMake] Visual Studio - Ninja Generator

[Guillaume Dumont]

Hi all,

I would like to know what kind of effort would it take to generate a Visual
Studio generator that bypasses the normal MSBuild build and uses Ninja
instead. I have been working on different projects which build much faster
with ninja than MSBuild (several orders of magnitude on a machine with 24
cores). Still I like to use the Visual Studio environment to use the
debugger. Using ninja is especially useful for projects with a lot of CUDA
files which are built sequentially for every target using MSVS.

I would like to contribute but I don't really know where to start and if
such an effort already exists.

-- 
Guillaume Dumont
=
dumont.guilla...@gmail.com
-- 

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