Re: Low level community
On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 11:09 AM, Lewis John Mcgibbney lewis.mcgibb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Folks, community@ is the orrect place for this question. What do we* do when we have low level activity, low level community, generally speaking low level anything on a project? Other ideas worth exploring (I'm not sure what kind of project you talk about): * ensure that parts of the project worth separate use are packaged separately, so that people can feel compelled to use, and improve/maintain, them. Again, you need to publisize them * See if your project have reinvented wheels, i.e. parts that can be easily replaced with off the shelf components and that are adding no value (say a template engine with no special value, present because of historical reasons). If this is the case, maintenance can be simplified by substituting them with well-maintained components Regards Santiago I am NOT talking about the attic. I am committed to ensuring the project is NOT going to the attic. Lewis * in the collective sense. Your, I, Us, Etc. -- *Lewis*
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Grant Ingersoll gsing...@apache.org wrote: One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. I have not seen a reason that applies specifically in geographically challenged environments, it is that of solitude. By this I mean that when you are the only expert in a given technology or product in miles around, it is not easy to have meaningful dialogues and learn, boast or just have insider jokes with alike people. This is more common than it looks, and Open Source projects and technologies make easier that your career keeps developing because, literally, you always have people smarter than you on the other side of the (virtual) tether... So there is a trend to cluster together for people in the same trade, and Open Source is a very natural way to jam or rehearse technical abilities Regards Santiago Thanks for your insights, Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: List etiquette on job postings (Was: Job Posting: ...)
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny elecha...@apache.org wrote: On 9/18/10 2:52 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, I'm not sure if the j...@apache.org list still exists It does, even if it's not very active (a couple of mails every month). IMO it would deserve a bit more advertisement :) IIRC part of the reason why it is not so much advertised is to avoid it turning into a spam source and keep its insider character. It is more or less a semiprivate place where committers, members or close people can post about jobs they know about that might be indicated for fellows Regards Santiago -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Forking is a Feature reactions?
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 5:14 PM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik di...@webweaving.org wrote: On 15 Sep 2010, at 16:38, Torsten Curdt wrote: Usually patches only get applied if committers think they are good enough and worthy to apply. Not every patch gets applied no matter what. And how is that dependent on the version control tool? See, it isn't. It's a function of the community's value system. In his repository he can just commit. And hence there is no penalty to do so - the only social capital involved is your own. There is no need to consider a wider range of use cases. You are an isolated artisan. Whether that gets merged to the official repository is a different question. And only for *that* it is the same value system. I guess for me this is the story of the very competent Artisan; the amazing artist and all the works of incredible sophistication we got to see until the mid 1700's. Which did allow others to stand on the sholders of prior workers and mentors - but rarely gave whole ecosystems a boost. Even the building of cathedrals had this temporal dynamic - and few are 'integrated'. This was mostly because an architect needed to spend a substantial part of her life just to visit, say, Cordoba and learn from the Mosque, or Reims, or whatever place. And also because reproduction of text or figures was lowres and damned expensive. git puts your forks in open sight, a person can get familiar with the status of the whole network of forks or, say, bottle.py in a matter or hours or a few days at most: http://github.com/defnull/bottle/network In most projects I've seen most forks are just for small patches or adjustments, and the maintainer can monitor them and pick up good patches even without fetch requests, specially when suggested by third party users... I mean the technology makes mucho more easy to compare cathedrals now than it was in the middle ages... While leading to a certain time of innovation - the industrial revolution and the internet today provides us with a different type of amplifier - which goes way beyond mere communication - it is furthering a different quality. And I certainly believe that a certain cost/pressure to make your contributions cleaner wider usable is helpful as for social cohesion and leads to better build foundations. Dw - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Forking is a Feature reactions?
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik di...@webweaving.org wrote: On 13 Sep 2010, at 19:29, Ben Hyde wrote: On Sep 13, 2010, at 7:37 AM, Sam Ruby wrote: I just can't resist the opportunity to fork this discussion: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2010/09/13/One-True-Way tee hee have we pushed the apache way pages to git hub yet? That would be a complex message :) While github itself - and its ecosystem/people interaction is really interesting and innovative* - the associated habits around 'git' are not always. Or rather - its conductive ness to having large pseudo branches (really just large patches batched up some what) is not. Especially as the pattern seems to be conductive to personal gratification** more than community; and leads to patchcollections which are the work of love of a single person quite easily. And that seems to cause fragmentation on an end to end level. I.e. rather than scratching your own itch - and solving it at a product level - you create a small alternate reality in which you nullify the issue, in which you isolate - and then welcome people on your island - but you've not made the world a slightly easier place. Somehow it feels as if there is some driver lacking, some positive need to have communities collaborate. I am quite worried (and in equal parts intrigued) whether we're creating a new type of entropy with a different type of 'bit rot'. What makes you think that without github people effectively tries to get patches upstream? IMO, most of may patches have remained forever in my HD until I deleted or a crash destroyed them. Github puts a *public* **indexable** fork one click away. It gives you a backup, so that there is incentive to have all your microchanges up asap. The work of picking up valuable patches from draft changes or even stupid ones remains in who is going to obtain value from them, i.e., the integrator. A number of times I have kept my patch and applied it to a custom package for years because the process to get it into upstream was too draining on my energy. With github at least people can find it via google, or I can refer to people contacting me to it years after the fact... The fragmentation that you appreciate in github is so because you can see it. We have the same fragmentation, only it is hidden in private working copies across the world. IMO, the main differente between distributed and centralized SCM is that centralized SCM people views my work as dirty working copy, while distributed SCM people views it as commits pending integration in my repository... BTW, on an unrelated subject: what was going on in the development of the Apache httpd server the week before 2001-9-11, i.e. 2001-9-03 through 10? Yes, I mean the week before 9/11 I'm doing some statistics about OS projects, and this week is an outlier re: relation between commits and list traffic for the httpd server. Any clue? Regards Santiago Dw. *: though lack some of the (i)CLA cleanness which is troubling me. **: speaking purely from what drives me personally to put stuff there - along with the avoidance of having to collaborate with people to spare/save energy - making me care more about my code - as opposed to a product for society. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Forking is a Feature reactions?
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: (...) It does give me pause because I believe there's an important role for a set of central services for projects (and for societies in general). As far as Apache goes, it's a virtual organization whose roots lie in the stuff we have stored in various datacenters. Nevertheless there is a palpable sense of what it means to do work at Apache, and part of that illusion is provided by our centralization. I do wonder how we'd manage to maintain that illusion if we completely decentralized our core workflows. It is amazing how you (and I mean a big y'all of people negating distributed SCM along those last 5 years or so) can keep the illusion that a technical solution (called centralization here) can keep an organization together more than a set of core values can. While I agree that changing tools, like changing stylesheets or electing a new board, changes an organization, I don't believe at all in subversion or even in centralized SCM as a shared ASF value. The license, the belief in collective decision making, our history, etc. are central. Not the technology we use for SCM. We already changed from cvs to svn and our world stayed reasonably similar. I see the dscm is an unsuitable workflow for collaborative development meme as this: a meme. You can think of git as just a local backup for your changes and a tool for patch handing like quilt blended together. This is often how I think about it when I'm using git svn for legacy subversion sites like the ASF. If you add github for a public remote backup this would be similar to having a quilt setup exported as a public share in one of those cloud backups... only with standardized and very efficient transfers Regards Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: RE: committers, PMCs or members in Portugal
El lun, 28-06-2010 a las 13:19 +0200, Carlos Sanchez escribió: Yep. Im in Galicia right now. Close enough? ;) Depending on where in Portugal he resides I might be closer (Madrid). Also, I seem to recall an Apache committer that used to be based in Porto or Coimbra, some years ago. The person I remember might be Paulo Gaspar, listed as no-cla in /etc/passwd in people.apache.org, which I think means we were not able to contact him when the CLA system was instituted around 2004. Google also shows Helder Magalhães (HM) listed as Batik committer and in Maia (Portugal) ( http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/batik/contributors.html ). Regards Santiago On Jun 28, 2010 1:03 PM, Gav... ga...@16degrees.com.au wrote: Also check the committers map http://people.apache.org/map.html there are six people listed in Spain - note that is just the committers that have chosen to list themselves, but it's a good start. Gav... From: Noirin Shirley [mailto:noi...@apache.org] Sent: Monday, 28 June 2010 8:57 PM To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: committers, PMCs or members in Portugal According to the local mentors map, the nearest person is Carlos Sanchez, in Spain. If you're in Portugal, consider adding yourself to the app so people can find you :-) Instructions are at http://community.apache.org/localmentors.html Noirin On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Filipe David Manana fdman...@apache.org wrote: Hello, I am just sending this email to find out if there are any Apache committers, PMCs or members living in Portugal, with the purpose of getting in touch. cheers -- Filipe David Manana, fdman...@apache.org / fdman...@gmail.com Reasonable men adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable men adapt the world to themselves. That's why all progress depends on unreasonable men. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: [apachecon] NoSQL meetup in Oakland
El lun, 13-07-2009 a las 11:48 +0200, Jukka Zitting escribió: Hi, I was thinking of potential cross-project meetup plans for the Content Technology track at the ApacheCon US 2009, and one idea I came up with is to organize a generic NoSQL gathering of non-relational database projects. We already have CouchDB, Jackrabbit, Hadoop and Lucene (and Cassandra?) people around, and it would be cool to invite also people and projects outside the ASF. +1, a very good idea. Such cross project, technology oriented tracks or meetups are one of the most valuable things that attending people can find in a conference, and the timing looks very reasonable. Regards Santiago WDYT? BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change community@ list settings
El mié, 08-07-2009 a las 10:54 +0200, Jukka Zitting escribió: Hi, On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Justin Erenkrantzjus...@erenkrantz.com wrote: The ASF does not have public lists that are not backed by either a PMC or a committee. As long as the subscription and posting was restricted to committers, then the list did not require active oversight. Yet, once a list becomes open for all to join and post, then it requires active oversight in the form of a backing PMC or committee. OK. Assuming this vote passes, I'll ask either Infra or PRC to take up oversight of this list. I'll also volunteer to act as the eyes and ears of that committee on this list if needed. +1 on the list being standard and +1 on the PRC having oversight on the community@ list. I volunteer as moderator too. I prefer PRC having a role in a community list to infra, as infra is more into technical infrastructure and has already a couple lists, while PRC has only public entries, but no public fori for community questions. It should help the community flavour of PRC, other than press and sponsorship flavours of it :) Regards Santiago, hoping that this email will pass through... BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: [OT] Looking for a job
You might use jobs (at) apache.org to send the proposal, it is a more focused list to people offering/demanding jobs related with Apache Software Foundation technologies. Regards Santiago On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Cagatay Civici cagatay.civ...@gmail.comwrote: I forgot to do mention about my resume, I am a Java EE developer with 5 years of experience and have strong JSF, Spring, EJB3, Hibernate, JPA, Seam skills. Specifically I'm PMC member of Apache MyFaces and expert in JSF. Regards, Cagatay On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Cagatay Apache caga...@apache.orgwrote: Hi, I've recently moved to London and looking for a job nowadays. If you are aware of an open position, I'd appreciate if you can contact me. Regards, Cagatay Civici
RE: Subversion vs other source control systems
El mar, 19-02-2008 a las 23:06 -0500, Noel J. Bergman escribió: Endre Stølsvik wrote: I find the decision to use one single SVN repo for the entire organization's source pretty strange. I'd believe that one repo for every TLP Been there, done that, have the scars. Possibly using several *centralized* repositories that can't merge. May we know more? If not, I call FUD ask the jury to ignore the statement. :) The only downside I see is a slight bit more configuration management Don't be so blithe about that. I actually think management would be way smaller. And, what is more important, distributable per repository. and that copying/moving a file from one repo to another would not keep history Unacceptable to lose it, IMO. Can be done without losing history. See separate email. And I have done the same test with hg (basically the same) and bazaar (which required some command line tweaking, but doable). And you'd be surprised how often things move around. If you take a look into the basic development model in the linux kernel, it means moving history between repositories continuously (say from am to net to linus,...) Every line of code is tracked while it moves, in fact when Linus merges from, say, the acpi tree, the commits remain identical. Regards Santiago (I add cc: and reply-to: community) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ApacheCON US buttons and banners
I wonder if I missed something re: the announcement of buttons or banners for speakers, or just for announcing the next ApacheCON US. Time for budgeting such travels in companies is probably close if not already late. I just started using adsense in my blog(s), and I noticed google offers me to set a fallback for those cases where no specific ads are selected. Using buttons in those cases, in addition of other places, could work. Regards Santiago http://memojo.com/~sgala/blog/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]
El sb, 07-05-2005 a las 04:29 -0400, Ted Husted escribi: Hmmm. If I Google, for example, JspException uploadForm Google comes back with a link to a Bugzilla report in one of the Struts dev@ archives. OK, sorry for the misdirected rant. But being in a world readable list, the lazyweb will take care that OpenOffice.org and other people take note of the problem. Actually, for Apache problems I usually find the solution very fast. It is bugs in OO.o, gnome, mozilla, etc. which gave me headaches. Regards -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]
El vie, 06-05-2005 a las 10:03 -0400, Ted Husted escribi: On 5/5/05, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: El jue, 05-05-2005 a las 16:11 -0400, Ted Husted escribi: When you hook up Confluence with JIRA and Subversion, things start to get very, very tasty. Am I the only one that is worried because both JIRA and Bugzilla are dark matter WRT search engines? I mean, it used to be easy to find information about bugs in mail lists, but now, with so called bug-tracking systems, it is more and more difficult. I'd call them both bug-hiding systems. The SOP should be for the issue trackers to log all changes to [EMAIL PROTECTED] What is SOP? dict.org is no help If that is happening, then it should be just as easy to find a reference to an pending or resolved issue as it is to find any other post to [EMAIL PROTECTED] True. JIRA does the right thing provided the changes are sent into a public list. Bugzilla, IIRC, is usually configured so that only assignee, reporter and other people commenting get copies, and this is definitely bad. This is what gnome, mozilla and other bugzilla installs do. Again, I feel strange that I rarely, if ever, come into a Google result coming from a bug tracking system (be it web or email) when I'm researching a difficult bug. Regular posts in -dev or -user lists are usually what enables my finding solutions. Puzzling. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
iCalendar for ApacheCON 2005 Europe
http://people.apache.org/~sgala/AC2005.ics contains a calendar for the upcoming ApacheCON, taken from the small python script (255 lines currently) that I hacked for last year's one. I will run the script again from time to time, and try to keep it updated and solve any problems that happen with it. The script is in the committers repository, under tools/iCalendar, together with a test.html sample file and a test.ics corresponding to the generated calendar. I found bugs (a unscheduled session, showing empty day/duration) which I solved by moving unknown sessions to July 23th. I'll try to clean the script a bit to make it more robust and portable, for instance moving variable strings into a config session in the header. It is very handy for keeping the session info in a calendaring app, as some of you may know from last year. It includes full summary (it needs some hacking to replace html markup with text), and speakers with a fake mailto: link, as mandated by the iCal specification. It loads under evolution 2.0.3, though I experienced a couple crashes while modifying the script. I'd recommend to save everything before trying it. Happy hacking, and see you there if all goes well. Santiago -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: Wikis for Geeks: anyone have a wiki that supports CVS/SVN for users?
El mar, 26-04-2005 a las 13:48 -0400, Shane Curcuru escribi: Here's a brilliant idea! I'd love to find a wiki that also supports updates via some sort of geek-oriented interface, like CVS or SVN. That way, we could please both the millions of folks who like using the web - and can usually figure out how to update wikis pretty easily - as well as many of the really geeky folks in our community who can't stand wikis, but use CVS to store their home directories. Any pointers? Apologies in advance if I missed a really obvious wiki that easily supports a pluggable content provider, including CVS - I'm horrible at googling sometimes. I have been using jspwiki for a time. I don't like it *that* much, but the PageProvider comes in a version using straight file system rcs (with horrible performance, as it spawns rcs processes for each page, and another provider simulating rcs in java code. Both do automatic storage of versions, and, given the presence of versioning straight into the API, changing the PageProvider from rcs to svn would not be a big project. On a different note, I selected blojsom for a pet project's micro-content management tool as its EntryProvider is again fairly well abstracted, and I plan to hook a SVN backend to it. It looks again a simple enterprise, as all the blo*som tools use a hierarchical, file system like abstraction for pages. One of the key requirements I had was being able to generate pages statically and serve them from a file system, which ruled out most DB backed tools and saved me quite a bit of complexity in the tools. Blojsom has also a plugin for wiki edition, based on the radeox wiki engine. I don't think servlet/java fits well in your panoply, and I think subwiki will serve you well community- and code- wise, but send me a note if you want further info about those tools and my hacks on them. The server where I had blojsom running died after a spike last Monday, and I'm in the middle of moving home/office. I'll put it back up again after the move. The old jspwiki is live at http://memojo.com/ and my daughters and myself have been using it for almost three years, with my small patches to have it generating xhtml instead of HTML 4 Regards Santiago - Shane do you read planetapache.org? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: EarthQuake near Sumatra
El lun, 27-12-2004 a las 14:04 +1100, Dion Gillard escribi: Has anyone heard from dims? He was around irc apache channels yesterday. Regards -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: Update to mailing lists page
El vie, 10-12-2004 a las 01:13 +, Sebastian Bazley escribi: I find the page useful too. However, it does take rather a long time to load. This is the (in)famous Page Length Tax whose announcement was missed by BenL earlier in the thread. ;-) Might I suggest the following: - split the page into separate pages for each domain and/or - create a page with links to the chart images, instead of including them inline Just a thought. S. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: Page of mailing list data
El jue, 04-11-2004 a las 12:03 -0500, Henri Yandell escribi: (...) I guess a better solution would be to target my actual problem and see if alerts can fire to the PMC when a mail list's moderation queue exceeds a certain amount. I'm not sure if we are using it already, but I use mon for this kind of things. It is a monitor/alert framework written in perl, and it is fairly easy to write monitor and alert scripts for it (in perl, shell, python, whatever). A monitor using Ken's scripts, plus an email alert to the right list would go far. Regards -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: Mail server doesn't accept zip attachments
Infrastructure would be a better place for the technical, though a discussion on policies would be better here at community :-) I CC: infrastructure to get an answer from the mail wizards (please cc: Carlos, I'm not sure he's in the infra list) El mi, 13-10-2004 a las 16:21 +0200, Carlos Sanchez escribi: Hi, Not sure if this is the correct mailing list for these kind of issues but maybe someone can help. When trying to send a message with a zip file attached through cvs.apache.org, using a ssh tunnel, I get 552 we don't accept email with executable content (#5.3.4) The zip content are text files. Is this intended or is a bug? I've tried to send a message with a zip file to my apache.org account and was also rejected, so I can't send nor receive. Regards Carlos Sanchez A Corua, Spain http://www.jroller.com/page/carlossg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: Open Source, Cold Shoulder (fwd)
El mar, 12-10-2004 a las 10:50 -0700, Justin Erenkrantz escribi: --On Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:21 AM +0800 Niclas Hedhman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sure that the upper-tier of ASF would shiver at the thought that hordes of people can gain direct access to the repositories. They/we will dust of the same arguments of why Wiki won't work. But it does. Why? Because *most* people *want* it to work. Baloney. Code review is *essential*. For httpd, we require *three* people to sign off on any change before it gets merged into the stable branch. We take our responsibility for providing stable software *extremely* seriously. We're not about to deploy untested (and unreviewed) fixes to the general population. It would not bode well on our personal reputations or of our software's. Therefore, we're also extremely cautious about adding new committers. Furthermore, for example, lots of people suggest patches to httpd. They think their patch is right. But, more often then not, their patches are incorrect because they aren't as familiar with the code as the committers are. If you turned the httpd repository into a wiki-style free-for-all, it would be an extreme uphill battle to keep the code clean because it would turn into anarchy. The current committers won't be able to keep up and the code would degenerate as everyone throws in what they think is right without having any mandatory review process in place. An ex post facto review process (CTR) isn't always acceptable for production-grade software because the reality is that real people can't keep up with a high volume! CTR works well only when you have a stable core of people whom you trust - as httpd does for its unstable branch, but even then we still use RTC for our stable branches because we want to be as-certain-as-we-humans-can-be that our fixes are right before we merge them into stable. You can separate both functions, i.e. development or patching and code review/quality control. The linux kernel is beginning to be a good example, where you have: - Linus (vanilla) tree as a reference value (think Fed Reserve) - Andrew Morton (mm) patches, making it a higher risk (think Dow Jones) - Full preemption and other special or highly experimental patches (think Nasdaq or even Hedge Funds) - Hardware manufacturers trying to get their code in, to get more wide support for their hardware. - Other people suggesting improvements around (I've sent three typos recently) just because they don't want to maintain their needed pieces. Redhat, Mandrake, Suse, Debian, Gentoo, etc. all fish in the stock market, providing que QA you meant, (like the big investment banks, BTW). In some senses, the linux kernel is becoming a very large stock exchange, and it requires two different abilities: the ability to recognise good patches from bad ones, and the ability to convince and be a good leader. If you look at lkml.org it is fascinating to see how the market is at work. On top of this list you have the different distros lists and channels. The position of Linus requires him to play a very subtle balance between all the exchange members. Other players can be more peripheral but strong (see Ben H. for the PPC kernel, or Rusty Russell for the network code...) I believe the quality of the code base is in direct proportion to the effort required to get commit bits and what it takes to get a change in. There are projects here in ASF-land that don't care at all about actual users and are willing to leave them in the lurch due to petty political battles. That's not the spirit of open source I care about or want the ASF to support. -- justin IOW, if some people wants to use apache code as a base and start delivering patched versions (mostly like vanilla + patches in the kernel case), they can use the repository and/or patches in the lists and issue system with no problem. The fact that the kernel bazaar is so dynamic is explained out of raw size, high modularity and variation of architecture and function, from handhelds and solid state wireless routers to highly multiprocessor NUMA machines. Yesterday I sent a fix (1) which worked for me, just corrected from one (2) which I imagine worked in the SMP #ifdef, but not in my Powerbook. (1) http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/11/274 (2) http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/10/11/111 None of them have been picked by the mm or any other aggregation, which means they will be rediscovered by other people eventually... or rendered useless by a refactoring of the code. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: Open Source, Cold Shoulder (fwd)
El sb, 09-10-2004 a las 06:11 +0100, Ben Laurie escribi: Brian Behlendorf wrote: Comments? Is there anything the community thinks we could do to address the situation? Try to encourage sensible writing? I mean, it'd be cool if there were more women in open source, but the whole idea that open source should rely less on clue and stop being about writing code is just completely dim. BTW, isn't it amusing that as soon as you see FLOSS you can be 99% sure that what follows is going to be clueless or irrelevant? Or probably both. FLOSS is an acronym mostly used by the politically correct people. If you look at the term, is is completely inclusive, trying to avoid pissing anybody. BTW, supporting this whole argument with a discussion about women in computer science is even more daft. Their own quote sums it up: Computer science is no more related to the computer than astronomy is related to the telescope. Well, wake up and smell the coffee, boys and girls, open source is _all about_ computers. It could be a problem with non-English speaking. Typical Computer Science term in Spanish is Informtica, from French Informatique, implying more IT (Information Technologies) meaning. While Apache has always been close to the algorithms and protocols, we are having more social information activity lately, and I can't avoid seeing it happening more in the future. Women tends to thrive more when they see the social component. Disclaimer: though All generalizations are false is a contradictio in terminis, being itself a generalization, it is close enough to be true. Regards Santiago -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: private mailing list for committers
El mar, 05-10-2004 a las 09:45 +0900, Tetsuya Kitahata escribi: Hi, Thanks for posting the clarification - which would puts me in favor of Felipe Leme's suggestion for a private list for committers. Steve. +1 -- I'm in favor, too. What would be the advantages? - I will not use even [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] for any truly confidential issue. Lists with 130+ people inside are nos trustable WRT confidentiality (1300+ people would be almost guarantee of fast filtration). OTOH, having a restricted but public list is beneficial for the community as a whole (people can observe how we do operate from the outside) and reduces bad behavior (people will feel ashamed about certain messages and will refrain for sending them knowing that they will be archived). There are only a few restricted lists in the ASF: - pmc lists - members - board - fundraising, press and concom and all those lists are open to all members (130+ currently and growing). The reason why those are confidential is because there are value judgement about people occasionally. Also, in some cases, discussions about the behavior of other companies or group which, while not beeing exactly confidential, people would rather not make in a public forum. A list private to 1300 people is not confidential no matter how you look at it, so the only reason that I can see to make it a private list would be for participants to avoid getting ashamed about bad behavior in public. If this is indeed the reason, I'm strongly -1. If it is not, I would like someone to explain me the benefits of having a private list with 1300 subscribers. This discussion, BTW, is almost the same as the one that other people listed, just before ApacheCON 2002, which ended with community being restricted to post but archived. I would vote completely open, and in fact I offered myself as a relay for any non-committer wanted to expose ideas in the community@apache.org list, and I do it again. (I reserve the right to not relay anything which scores over 5 in my spamassassin setting :-P ) Suggestion: world at apache dot org world does not fit well with a closed list. If it got approved (and I'm against it) I would rather choose a different name. Regards -- Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] High Sierra Technology, SLU signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 J.Pietschmann wrote: | Santiago Gala wrote: | | I plan to update it as soon as I find a way to make xplanet generate | coordinates for an imagemap, so that it can be indexed by robot, | scraped, etc. | | | The -markerbounds filename option should write box coordinates | to a file, according to the readme. Never tried it myself though. | It is the -markerfile file option what disappeared between versions. This is where the markers will be stored. the code is at cvs:committers/krell But I'm finding more promising the WMS approach from Dirk-Willem than my hack. Regards Santiago | J.Pietschmann | | - | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBWnBPZAeG2a2/nhoRAruWAKDMcZ2TyNzrcYDYS0I7SB946IhsVgCg4tjo RzCR7w4YySRl+T0nf1bTfXc= =6Pyp -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Carlos Sanchez wrote: |Hi, | |Yes I am, I didn't see it in the full map. I suppose |http://www.apache.org/~sgala/nightmap.html won't be updated anymore. I plan to update it as soon as I find a way to make xplanet generate coordinates for an imagemap, so that it can be indexed by robot, scraped, etc. I was trying to have it running just before or during the hack-a-thon. In fact, it was one of my projects for this time. Anybody who wants to figure how to make modern versions of xplanet spit a set of coordinates for markers are welcome to help. It became much more difficult in a version upgrade. xplanet has the virtue of changing the command lines parameters and configuration even in minor version upgrades :-) Additional features planned was that the bulb would be brighter if the owner had posted in the feed(s) in the page where the coordinates are. |Any way to get the map at http://wms.asemantics.com with links? | I'll try. I'm currently mostly without contracts, looking actively for (paid) work, and have little time for interesting things :-) Regards ~Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBWJwYZAeG2a2/nhoRAveBAKDJhgA98g3ll4DP0T68wu0z07kX9wCcCI7f V77ilKQ6bnewRFTq/1bbsto= =XZbM -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: | |On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Carlos Sanchez wrote: | |I think the most interesting fact is link the map dots with each person web |page, so you can have an idea of what people are closer to you and improve |community relationship. | | |If you take those URL's and change the image format to RDF or to CSV of |CVSPLAIN (comma separated value) you can get the data out to get yourself |an image map which can be put directly into the HTML (i.e. with an shtml |or something or a crontab) rather than getting a GIF image. | Great! all the pieces are there :-) http://wms.asemantics.com/asf/?styles=emotionsVERSION=1.1.0layers=rawworld,rawday,comlocwidth=600height=300request=getMapformat=pngbbox=-180,-90,180,90 plus http://wms.asemantics.com/asf/?styles=emotionsVERSION=1.1.0layers=rawworld,rawday,comlocwidth=600height=300request=getMapformat=csvbbox=-180,-90,180,90 and we can make zoomed areas like http://wms.asemantics.com/asf/?styles=emotionsVERSION=1.1.0ylayers=rawworld,rawday,comlocwidth=600height=400request=getMapformat=pngbbox=5,35,-15,45 with http://wms.asemantics.com/asf/?styles=emotionsVERSION=1.1.0ylayers=rawworld,rawday,comlocwidth=600height=400request=getMapformat=csvbbox=5,35,-15,45 which shows my neighborhood (except for Daniel, which has not put himself in the page) Happy hacking to whoever beats me to script it :-) Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBWJ9lZAeG2a2/nhoRAmbMAJ0U31do+2Zo0bzxZ3vCLcg5qd5H1ACfR8gg S7hccDjPrl5O6UcWAHeoGUM= =vSjj -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: Had some time between flights: http://apache-globe.asemantics.org/ Do a 'view source' to get the 'trick' so to speak. I'd love suggestions as to hwo you can make the committer name etc appear. Right nwo I am linking in the URLs. If you need anything more - let me know. Or I am happy to move this to ASF hardware and/or have a diffrent URL mapped onto it. It -does- however require a not entirely trivial infrastructure for the geo correction, cloudmaps etc. adding a title=plainName attribute to the area should do I imagine that if areas are defined additionally (like Europe, East Coast, etc.) the browser would do the right thing (TM) and allow us to click straight into sparse people or get a zoomed area clicking in the outside. Those areas would carry a title=Zoom to Europe, etc. But I never tested it. I think a RDF/FOAF file with all the information would be easier to script, and more general than the current one (in particular to allow lists or active people (commits, blogs, etc.). (Or learning myself WMS) That looks again an interesting hack-a-thon project. Regards Santiago Dw - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 J Aaron Farr wrote: | -Original Message- From: Sam Ruby | [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 8:28 | AM To: community@apache.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: | Style of community building | | Niclas Hedhman wrote: | | Rightly or wrongly so, the tone of competition in Avalon was | set well | | before | | the emergence of Merlin. That was bad. So now the train was | moving, and | | noone | | pulled the breaks, not any individual, not the PMC, not the PMC | Chair, | | not | | the community, not the Board - noone. That was also bad. | | I can't fix the past, but... | | Sam reaches for brakes. | | Sam grasps brakes. | | Sam pulls. | | | :) | | All clever remarks aside, I think Niclas's response was well put. | There is probably a lot that the foundation can learn from the | mistakes in Avalon. I tried to summarize some of them the other | day [1]. | | In terms of style of community building I think part of the issue | at hand were instances when developers felt technical issues were | paramount to community health. Usually this results in a fork and | in the case of Avalon, it should have. But instead we were either | overly optimistic and wanted to work things out or overly | territorial and didn't want to break things up. | | Thus one of the 'markers' or 'safety values' which Niclas is | talking about is a mechanism which allows communities and code to | successfully branch and fork when necessary rather than be forced | to play in the same sandbox until everyone learns his or her lesson | to work well with others. The Incubator is one such mechanism. I | believe it is quite appropriate to point these resources out and | educate PMC's and developers on how to manage such situations. | James Duncan Davidson's Apache Rules for revolutionaries document, from year 2k, has always been what I felt the unofficial policy (i.e. rough consensus amongst members regarding those conflicts. http://incubator.apache.org/learn/rules-for-revolutionaries.html I don't know the details of the conflict discussed here, but this document looks like a very good risk management strategy for any technical conflict. And it does not look like the rules there have been respected. Regards Santiago | jaaron | | [1] http://www.jadetower.org/muses/archives/000146.html | | - | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For | additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBWX+PZAeG2a2/nhoRAq8tAKDntdOlFazoOIcZz3U07nbFUSvc2gCfSYIu eNIRCaXBXfKrjG+jnDG++rk= =X7cC -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: Thank You for Contributing to the LEF Report, Open Source: Open for Business, now on csc.com]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I followed the link on an email in press@ thanking us for allowing logo usage, and found the Executive Summary and Report easy to understand, in the point where business talk is still something that can be made sense of. I think it is a useful resource for understanding the business implications of Open Source, in particular the 10 trends and the key business drivers. http://www.csc.com/features/2004/48.shtml http://www.csc.com/features/2004/uploads/LEF_OpenSource_ExecutiveSummary.pdf http://www.csc.com/features/2004/uploads/LEF_OPENSOURCE.pdf Regards Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBUY4AMGY6e0B83Y0RAlANAJwLGrWQZYayNt+VtQTZPgnJeLJXbwCgy0u2 /xGoAD+7BZ5oJAsryHLWGUU= =+azz -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: IDE licenses
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Niclas Hedhman wrote: |On Tuesday 21 September 2004 18:00, Ross Gardler wrote: | |To be honest I feel that the need for the ASF to make a case for it is |in itself quite insulting. They (Genuitec) even have the names of some |ASF projects on their home page. Yet a search of their site for Apache |only reveals a couple of forum threads. | | |+1. |Companies who doesn't recognize their dependency and cost-savings due to OSS |in general and ASF in particular, are outright arrogant and should not be |entertained. |I think ASF folks could query a lot of companies for development tools, and |most would grant without any motivations from ASF. Although I think ASF |should establish a separate Donation Policy for development tools, and any |company that does an ASF-wide donation of tools, will get listed on a |'Tools-thankyou' page. | |Cheers |Niclas Placement in the ASF is a tough issue. I would say that, while trying to donate licenses to the ASF is always welcome, the marketing implications of it are up to the PRC and Board. This is my opinion, of course. I think the problem here is that you spoke with a commercial, instead of a marketdroid. People in marketing should recognize the value, unless they thrive on clients ignorant about Open Source and projects like Eclipse. In this case, being associated with Apache would be like talking about the Emperor's new clothes, which we are doing here, BTW. Regards Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBUAlaMGY6e0B83Y0RAmkiAKCPDoB83U6WdTMk/H9u+8BFXc0nhgCeOlGI krAAXZ6Jr8+jgRWNbFXBZag= =Z2ER -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Non-ASCII chars in Java comments
J.Pietschmann wrote: Adam R. B. Jack wrote: Some projects with issues (some JDK 1.5, some not) are listed here: http://brutus.apache.org/gump/jdk15/project_todos.html Neat! I did a quick check of the BCEL issues, and they are exclusively problems with non-ASCII characters. While the BCEL problems are easily fixed (bullet characters, probably cutpasted from a HTML page, and a few german umlauts), we had a similar problem with a FOP source file some times ago, which was not as easily resolved, because it was an email address containing the characters causing the troubles. Ultimately, the originator allowed to pull the address and have his name respelled in a romanized form. Related questions: 1. Javac allows Java source file encodings with a greater range of characters, in particular UTF-8. Unfortunately, there is no standardized auto-detection mechanism (as for XML). Does anybody wants to discuss how projects/the whole ASF should deal with non-ASCII encodings for Java files? Typically, IMO, the only way to deal with it involves adopting the convention that all files in a project are UTF-8 (which can hold any character). The Java books I read recommend using the \u convention for high characters in source code, so that no character in a java source is non-ASCII. I think that this convention should work in javadocs, but never tested it. I've just found a similar bug with OpenOffice.org java files, which refused to compile in my es_ES.utf8 machine unless I prefixed the build with LC_ALL=C or a similar non-utf encoding. 2. How should situations be handled where characters which can't be encoded are important, like in email addresses or IRLs (internationalized URLs)? IMO, adopting the convention that each project tarball uses a given encoding (UTF-8 ideally, since it minimizes breakage), and (for linux) using LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 before building (this was the issue I found, that some files in OpenOffice come encoded in iso-8859-1 but with no meta-information saying so). For window I have no idea if the encoding can be changed for a session or something. How do Perl developers with this issues? Regards J.Pietschmann This issue is language independent, it is a problem that will exist until a common encoding is used or meta information for all files is available. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: gmail accounts?
Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Monday 16 August 2004 21:07, Greg Stein wrote: A while back, I offered gmail accounts to a number of people when the number of invites that I had was pretty limited. However, I now have unlimited invites... If anybody would like a gmail account, then please reply to me privately and I'll hook you up. I'm happy to provide them to any ASF committer and their family. A It says it requires ActiveX. Is Google now part of the evil empire ?? :o) It requires ActiveX if you use MSIE. It works perfectly on any mozilla/firefox/galeon, ... Not with Opera, though. MSIE 5.01, IIRC. I don't know konqueror. How about Linux/Unix/MacX users, are we totally left out? I'm using it routinely with linux (and before OS X) Regards Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion
El viernes, 19 marz, 2004, a las 21:42 Europe/Madrid, Antonio Gallardo escribió: But if you start using some features locked to an specific OS, ... ...the terrorists have already won :) Now, C# is reasonably free with mono, provided you're clever enough to avoid .NET classes lock-in. Miguel de Icaza explains the mono development strategy as a dual stack, trying to have both a .NET stack and a GTK# stack together. Wether people will allow themselves to lock into MSoft or not remains to be seen. http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=5746offset=75rows=90 I'm not sure about the quality and status of ikvm (java to c# assembly compiler), but some people (I think it was Miguel in Malaga) reported to me informally it was able to run tomcat. Any clue? Regards Santiago P.S.) Funny to see a classic general@jakarta.apache.org thread here at community ;-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: automatic nagging for board reports?
El miércoles, 21 ener, 2004, a las 17:39 Europe/Madrid, Leo Simons escribió: (replies to community@ please) I believe many ASF projects are chronically late in sending in status reports in time for the board meeting. That's bad and they should be nagged about it. Since manual nagging is a chore, how about a small script in a crontab somewhere that automates sending out a timely reminder? I'll volunteer to set it up if such a thing is desireable. I just need the report schedule and some time. iCalendar event? .ics in mail are imported automatically to iCal (for Mac OS X), and any ASF Officer should be able to get it into korganizer, evolution, Outlook, or whatever calendaring app they are using. it is a VTODO what we want here, and I'm not that sure about importing todos. Or maybe we could (mis)use Jira? comments? Good idea? -- cheers, - Leo Simons --- Weblog -- http://leosimons.com/ IoC Component Glue -- http://jicarilla.org/ Articles Opinions -- http://articles.leosimons.com/ --- We started off trying to set up a small anarchist community, but people wouldn't obey the rules. -- Alan Bennett - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Who decides who is 'worthy' for Planet Apache?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 22 ener, 2004, a las 17:04 Europe/Madrid, Adam R. B. Jack escribió: What was in that feed? I missed it. From config.ini: #[http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/gump/index.rss] #name = Jakarta Gump #face = http://gui.apache.org/images/apache_feather_bullet.gif See also: http://lsd.student.utwente.nl/gump/index.html How would an automated feed be in any way like the rest of what's on ApachePlanet? It isn't. From the responses so far, I guess I missed the point of PlanetApache. There is a time and a place for random musing on random topics by random (loosly connected) folks, I think the title of this site just confused me... ;-) Recall also, that planet isn't an apache project, it is Thom's pet project. Ok, fair enough, so be it. I was hoping to come play also, with some content that I felt might be of interest to Apache folks. I am curious about software interacting w/ humans/communities via microcontent, but apparently that is out in left field for this endeavour. The gump feed could hardly be called microcontent. It was rather content spam. Just when they removed it, I was thinking about a suggestion: write a small filter that would compress a whole RSS into just one RSS entry, for gump-like feeds. I do the suggestion now, for similar unbalances. OTOH, feel free to steal the code of Thom and Ted and organize your own trueplanetapache, constellationapache, whatever regards, Adam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFAD/h+MGY6e0B83Y0RAtIjAJ9gu8/tlVgPLVY5kWx5phiH2y23bQCgnRVk T/iRo9Y/Ira7CcJ7VWhrl8A= =n1GT -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PGP Key signing
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El miércoles, 21 ener, 2004, a las 01:26 Europe/Madrid, Mark R. Diggory escribió: I'm finishing up writing a PGP plugin for maven to generate public/private keypairs, sign artifacts, verify artifacts and do encryption/decryption. This should eventually make publishing to the maven repository very smooth and easy to accomplish. I would like to gather together the following into some PGP/MD5 FAQ documentation for the Apache site: 1.) Proper procedures for generating and publishing PGP keys for use at Apache. Answer simple questions like; where to place your public keys. where not to place your private keys. 2.) How to go about key signing to build up the web of trust at Apache. When I was browsing Henk's page I noticed the web of trust stuff: http://www.apache.org/~henkp/trust/apache.html http://apache.org/~erikabele/wot/wot.html http://www.apache.org/~henkp/md5/doc.html http://www.apache.org/~henkp/sig/ There was a keysigning event during the last ApacheCON, and I hope this will be ongoing for future ones. It was very nice, I really enjoyed it. In community@apache.org there have been interesting discussion on how to sign other Apache people keys, etc. Also, I see no links to the wiki, where there is another bunch of resources already: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?SigningReleases 3.) As much other interesting errata as possible concerning PGP signatures and MD5 checksums. If you have any more interesting links, important documentation, etc, or come across anything. I'd like to start building them up into a canonical source on this stuff. I was looking for pages on the key signing event, but I couldn't found them. I cc: community, where the action took place last time. thanks, Mark -- Mark Diggory Software Developer Harvard MIT Data Center http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFADjo2ZAeG2a2/nhoRAucvAKDnE4uRqxpUCLs2jcdjv/Cjs+C43gCeOvba 14hbeByUB4otofAO/2jl2W4= =K+BP -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Planet may look a bit weird for a while
El lunes, 19 ener, 2004, a las 12:29 Europe/Madrid, Rodent of Unusual Size escribió: Thom May wrote: Since we're working around the brokeness that is RSS 0.91; all feeds with no times are being time guessed, which unfortunately means that all their old posts are gonna turn up on top. So, the way to fix this is to blog more! Get to it! just a thought.. right now, planetapache is set up in a strictly chronological order, like advogato. what would people think about there being a view that showed entries grouped by author? that is.. right now it lists things like thom #81 sander #30 benh #10 thom #80 thom #79 ken #62 benh #9 would there be any interest in being able to click a button and have them listed as thom #81 thom #80 thom #79 sander #30 benh #10 benh #9 ken #62 instead? I'm jumping to the blogger home page to achieve this effect, so I don't find it of particular value. But you know the standard user response: If it is not going to cost me more, of course! Another interesting possibility for the future is displaying common categories, specially if there is strong commonality and people exports the list of those. Bottom up ontology forming the apache way!!! (I wonder what would benh blog on this idea) Regards, Santiago (not blogging much until I can get a better setup and my English blog up) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: webbit 2004
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El viernes, 16 ener, 2004, a las 14:54 Europe/Madrid, David N. Welton escribió: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Cool, I'm interested (I live in Crema [1]). I think we have enough mass - who takes an action to contact the organizers to make knwon that we want to gatecrash their party / (And for the non italians - there are shitloads of cheap flights into Milano and Venice these days (Padova is right next to Venice, near Verona and Vicenca - 20mins by train, 2 hours from Milano, all trains will stop there). Don't tempt me: If we are organizing an apachehack there, I could well look for a plane from Madrid to Milano. Is it in may finally? But then you should come to a party in the East of Spain, less than 200 meters from the beach, later in August. I'll give details as we get closer to the dates. Ok, here's the deal: Last year, the layout was like so: One room full of company booths, and one room full of organizations, which ranged from Debian to things like mammeonline or belluno linux users. Some of the groups were just there to hang out with one another, enjoy the connectivity, and geek out for a few days. If we want to do that, no problem. If we wanted to have a more serious presence, I think some talking to the organizers might be in the cards - something I think I'll do anyway, to suggest that there at least be a separation of some form between those groups that just want to hang out, and those that want to present something to the public. Dirk's right about flights - volareweb.it has quite a few, and ryanair goes to Treviso, which isn't too far from Padova. For people really interested in getting into the spirit of things, you can bring a sleeping bag/pad and 'camp out' there - they have showers, food and such. I will probably have space for one or two people to crash at my place in Padova. Similar to the one I'm quoting, or to the hackmeeting, here in Madrid, which uses to be around October -- David N. Welton Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/ Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/ Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/ Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFAB/i0MGY6e0B83Y0RAt1uAJ9ynJUF9+sPqg8o+IbLxWKNFojC0ACfWsqa Cy7pbCLjvj1Cq0GQyVbdNfw= =Pk9t -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disregard Re: Undermining the Incubator
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: (...) | Many of us rant in email, delete, then recompose with some decorum. | Since many things that are discussed in community involve strongly held | personal opinions and beliefs, this safety measure ensures that intelligent | dialogs can be pursued and the best course of action followed. | In this very spirit, 8 hours ago I was about to suggest Andy to put his outbox in a moderation queue, but then I thought my message was too harsh and I refrained from sending it... ;-) | Bill Regards, ~ Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFABGGIZAeG2a2/nhoRAmKEAKDo5GNWeHw+37joT60c3e1EM1A+CQCcC1a1 j6ozIRgj0Re4jFQmV7iadFs= =zn7N -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Single Location for syndicated Apache blogs
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 8 ener, 2004, a las 21:41 Europe/Madrid, Ben Hyde escribió: I like the planetapache.org approach. It mimize the coordination costs of getting something up and running. I'd encourage putting any stuff into the committer repository so you can parasite on the infrastructure to allow everybody to pitch in who cares to and just publish the results to the planetapache thang. If it helps, feel free to stick someplace in krell, or not :-). If you don't want to use perl in krell just, that's cool; I think we already have some Java. I'd love to see a 'project' that uses 7-12 different languages ;-) I know: Unix is more a world of small gods. Let's hope we can keep the Internet that way. http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/000162.html - ben :-) Regards, Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQE//cJ1ZAeG2a2/nhoRAvkTAKCXNAuXi3YheOgbaIk084Cu8MPeNACfWcGt otmvdln3jGUBKSex5LKw+9Q= =XMrd -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Humor] robot.txt
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 01:51 Europe/Madrid, Tetsuya Kitahata escribió: On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:35:52 -0500 Ben Hyde wrote: http://www.superbad.com/robots.txt ... :-) Poetic! If you find this poetic, you will no doubt enjoy the Cyberiad (Stanislaw Lem). An excellent book. I remember specially the story where a psychiatric for robots is described, with a hypochondriac robot carrying a cart with spares. (BTW, when I first saw Ken in ApacheCON Europe 2000 this was the very image that came to my mind) :-P http://www.epinions.com/content_93625618052 There are different compilations of his fables about robots, at least in Spanish. Stanislaw Lem wrote Solaris and several other fine books. More on him: http://www.cyberiad.info/english/main.htm Regards, Santiago -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/4Xb/MGY6e0B83Y0RAuASAKCG6weNmyYgqoCkczlpM4z1zsTVQQCfQyp6 UVqb3A/BB3oUg+1xDzmrrEA= =rxLM -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Policy for Jakarta Wiki(s)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El miércoles, 10 dici, 2003, a las 19:30 Europe/Madrid, Andrew C. Oliver escribió: infrastructure My issue with the PMCization of Apache is that everything is moving to private lists. How is this open??? Being out of all PMCs, I have been experiencing the same feelings. I suspect that we look more and more opaque from the outside, which I think is bad. I'm more and more convinced that the success of linux comes through the fact that there are tons of freely accesible information about it. Google finds 68M pages on Windows, 64M pages on linux, 52M on Sun, 44M on Microsoft, 28.7M on Mac, 17.7M on Apple, 13.5M on Apache, 7.5M on redhat, 5.7M on Solaris, 2.4M on sendmail, 1.4M on tomcat, 1.3 on postfix. That linux appears more times than Sun, being Sun a three letter word with a lot of common uses, or more than Apple or Microsoft is actually amazing to me. 7.7M on Windows software, 6.6M on linux software, 5.3M on Mac software, 5.3M on Microsoft Windows, 3.6M on linux kernel, 3.4M on Apple Mac, 3.1M on Apache software. This is a very naive indicator, but try to paste an obscure kernel error from linux and a screendump of an obscure dialog box showing a windows error into google and look for information, and you'll see what I mean. Regards, Santiago (Starting a DDOS on Google :-P ) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/2ZY4MGY6e0B83Y0RAlUEAJ9yB8kgGrftbpbImdvo7NRGBgFX4gCgyIlt 1wTjmgtj1zjKZGaRK6t4En4= =ahUH -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Policy for Jakarta Wiki(s)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El viernes, 12 dici, 2003, a las 11:25 Europe/Madrid, Nicola Ken Barozzi escribió: Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El miércoles, 10 dici, 2003, a las 19:30 Europe/Madrid, Andrew C. Oliver escribió: infrastructure My issue with the PMCization of Apache is that everything is moving to private lists. How is this open??? Bzzz. Wrong. Nothing is moving to private lists. Creation of more PMCs and private lists are two extremely different things. Apache is in the process of creating more PMCs, as was intended since the beginning, so that community groups are responsible directly of the project without useless beaurocratic levels of indirection. All discussions that are not extremely sensitive must happen on public lists *as always*. If it doesn't happen, it should be rectified. If we are in lots of private lists it will start happening that a percentage of the information will fall in those, instead of public ones, just because of laziness or to avoid moving threads. Being out of all PMCs, I have been experiencing the same feelings. I suspect that we look more and more opaque from the outside, which I think is bad. If this is the case, it *is* bad. We must ensure that all discussions happen on public lists unless it's evidently necessary, for several reasons, that they remain private to PMCs. You could be right. I glanced quickly (just size of compressed monthly archives, i.e. raw information value) of different private and public lists and I could not find any definitive trend or correlation. Some statistics on long term traffic on both private and public lists would be nice to have, as traffic is very bursty, and only statistical analysis can give us hints on actual volume of public vs private mail. It could be *my* perception while I adapt to these changing times, having been appointed member and a lot of project activity in the last months. Overmore, all long term committers should be on the PMC, which should simply represent all the dev group. And actively taking care to not use this list except for sensitive matters. Regards, Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/2aUcMGY6e0B83Y0RAp3ZAJ0TW6FDEjVeXr4D0zl4R0ALOmJlkQCeOcVm 1omoIuFWVT0YO2JtzrIig/4= =qRik -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bogus subs to mailing lists (more?)
CCing community, for wider input. El miércoles, 5 novi, 2003, a las 17:59 Europe/Madrid, Noel J. Bergman escribió: I did *not* subscribe to the attendees mailing list, not I know what this is about. Spammers spoof source and destination addresses. And yes, it is a plan to take over the world. According to a report that came out recently, over 60% of all spam is sent from a virus infected Windows machine. --- Noel I think the moment is coming where we should think about using those interesting GPG keys for something more than just signing releases. Is there any way, for instance, to allow messages signed by Apache committers to pass through to any public Apache list unmoderated ? Is there any way, for instance, that subscribers to our lists are encouraged to send us public keys for the same purpose? Is there any way that the same PGP/GPG key can be certified and the resulting X.509 cert further used for certain accesses, like bugzilla or even ssh? Is there any way, after this takes off, to punish non identified mail, for instance requiring manual confirmation of each mail? The long term goal would be to use effectively digital identity to protect us from spam. I don't know a lot of precise technical details about cryptography, but from my naive attitude all I say looks reasonable and even desirable. Regards, Santiago (ignorance is daring and bliss) Gala :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bogus subs to mailing lists (more?)
El miércoles, 5 novi, 2003, a las 23:57 Europe/Madrid, Noel J. Bergman escribió: I think the moment is coming where we should think about using those interesting GPG keys for something more than just signing releases. S/MIME certificates are acquired, e.g., from Thawte, just as you would an SSL certificate. There are root Certificate Authorities, just as for HTTPS. Any good mail client has built-in support. Thawte certificates are free, although they have limited verification until you start to get signed by Thawte notaries (another web-of-trust concept). enigmail for mozilla uses pgp/gpg as infrastructure, in essentially the same way. Other clients support also this scheme. Messages can be signed either as S/MIME or with the ---BEGIN PGP ... markers in ASCII messages. Is there any way, for instance, to allow messages signed by Apache committers to pass through to any public Apache list unmoderated? How do you propose getting a critical mass of signed mail, and what do you want to do in the meantime with unsigned mail from a subscriber? Making life easier for people using them and more difficult for people not using them. Actually, I am exploring the concept, I expected some expert to come out and say Actually, project XYZ in sourceforge does a variant of this, only much better :-) The mail server would need everyone's public key to verify the signatures. This looks simple enough, at least for people signing releases. They are already in the pgp/gpg infrastructure. Any key in the Apache web of trust could be initially allowed. Possibly plus any X.509 certificate from reasonable authorities, until/unless they are banned for bad behavior (i.e. innocent until proved otherwise). But how does that solve the problem? Are you going to require *ALL* messages to be signed? The initial prize would be something like you don't need to subscribe or wait moderation to send, and you can read via news. Also, you can send from any account if you send a signed message. And, of course, we should have a policy on allowing certain forms of signed messages to Apache lists. Signatures could either be removed at the list server (and substituted by a Header) or kept in. Mind you, I've been saying for years that, because of spam, e-mail anonymity is going to die. All messages will be required to be digitally signed, or will be considered spam a priori. So your view does not bother me in the slightest, but other people consider that there is a right to send anonymous e-mail. I agree. I'd just mark it as spam. But until S/MIME is the accepted norm, rather than the exception, I don't see that it offers a solution. It looks like a chicken and egg problem. But as we get having Apache identities and a web of trust for signing releases and the like, we could actually encourage signed mail, for instance allowing it pass through moderation in any Apache list. This could encourage quite a few people outside Apache to use it for occasional bug reports and the like. More thinking needed. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The board is not responsible!
El miércoles, 22 octu, 2003, a las 15:31 Europe/Madrid, Magnus ?or Torfason escribió: Should there perhaps be such a PMC, or a PMC responsible for all mailing lists not managed by any other PMCs? Who manages those managers that don't manage themselves? XXIst century version of the Barber's paradow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_paradox The joys of knowledge workers ;-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
David N. Welton escribió: Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I think that creating a project that consists of people that want to work on other projects is a bit weird. Why don't you just ask for a mailing list? The actual commits will have to be made by the specific projects, not by an uber-i18n-committee, so project formation doesn't make any sense. I was thinking on the l10n making doc commits and properties commits, ... themselves, and having means to track *both* the source document (in the original project cvs) and the translated documents (???). i18n is different from l10n - translation. i18n is really a code issue and can only be handled at that level. Other projects with more successful l10n efforts have, on the other hand, created efforts centralized not on the code, but on bringing together a group of volunteers who are not coders, and who may not even be experts on one particular project outside its documentation, but who are able to provide translations. This has the advantage of having one stream of documentation queued up for translation, and encourages the growth of a comunity based on translation work, something that is less likely for individual projects. Debian developer Steve Langasek provides this bit of info on how the FSF works, for comparison: The GNU TP receives .po files from upstream maintainers, announces them to the translation mailing lists, and then each .po file is assigned out to an individual translator according to interest. This kind of things was what promtpted myself to suggest top level and bringing the discussion here. When the original proposal spoke about i18n (and translation in the narrow scope of i18n: button names, etc.) for the whole jakarta, I thought that this (the translation part) was mostly independent of programming language and/or project. I signaled clearly that I was speaking about having a translation infrastructure, and that this infrastructure was not simple to develop. For instance, I was thinking in how to organise technically a repository so that the translators could be made aware of version and release control, i.e. translating patches instead of losing synchrony or re-translating whole property files or docs where only a few lines were added or changed, with the risk of inconsistent translations of old items across releases. I have no solution for this, except noop, i.e. each document maintainer tracks herself the source and translation (bad for replacement of translator and incremental quality of translations). I think the original proposal was purely about i18n technology for java. But the discussion drifted into translation of docs, web sites, etc. It is unfortunate that I (and other people) mixed two differen issues here and mudded the discussion a bit. Let's separate the issues back. I changed this thread to be about translation efforts. Please don't bring code back to this thread. That said, being a native english speaker, I've only really observed this stuff from afar. Ciao, Re: the other comment by Roy T. Fielding: An ASF project exists as an organizational mechanism for releasing software that might otherwise get people sued as individuals. It does not exist for the sake of replacing USENET news or community mailing lists. This makes worthwhile having either some means to monitor l10n as a whole, cause project people cannot assess the fidelity or quality of translations unless they are plurilingual. Again, it does not look completely off track. I have more and more the idea that code is about language and expression, and that there is not that much difference between a document and a program. But, and this is why I asked for the discussion in community, I don't have clear ideas on how to make sense of this. Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9 -- May-June 2003
Tetsuya Kitahata escribió: Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks amazingly similar to RSS or necho (http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/) if we want a more experimental format :-) Someone defaced Sam's wiki frontpage. It has been restored by now. Necho? Echo? There are plenty of names, or no name. From the frontpage: The EchoProject is an initiative to develop a common syntax for syndication, archiving and an publishing API. The original name was Echo, but it was considered inappropriate and changed, provisionally, to not-echo, or necho for short. Mark Pilgrim calls it the-format-that-should-not-be-named-echo or something. It is/will be a format similar to RSS, with API to edit or archive news items. Of potential interest for things like the FAN (Future Apache Newsletter) ;-) Necho reminds me of the word Neko, which is used by Andy Clark's piece of works... CyberNeko Parser etc. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. Neko means *cat* in Japanese ;-) Nice, I didn't know. It could be a good name for the project. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9 -- May-June 2003
Noel J. Bergman escribió: Something like: article name=... url=... title= summary /summary body /body /article would handle multiple forms, e.g., brief e-mail, full e-mail, web site edition. Cocoon could handle the entire publishing process, even producing a downloadable PDF for those who want to read it that way. --- Noel It looks amazingly similar to RSS or necho (http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/) if we want a more experimental format :-) Regards --- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Newsletter [Re: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9 -- May-June 2003]
Jeff Trawick escribió: Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: This is what I would like to see: 1) the ASF publishes a newsletter (following the very nice style used in the recent Jakarta one) that covers all the ASF endevours. Including infrastructure, licensing, security, incubation and all the non-so-project stuff. 2) the newsletter is sent to announce@apache.org 3) the newsletter is then archived on www.apache.org/newsletter/[date] What do you think? +1 +1 (though I worry about what the editor(s) will have to suffer through) The approach by Tetsuya is great: use the wiki as a draft, and post into the projects lists at given times prompting the people and notifying the deadlines. If the projects don't fill in the blanks, it is their problem. I would like also, but it requires dedicated people, the kind of entries in the newsletter that I have seen in the linux kernel, commenting on the interesting threads, etc. And, of course, Steven's weather report. ;-) Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
Robert Simpson escribió: I also fear that if I go back to simply continuing the development of the code myself, that eventually the need in Jakarta will be recognized, but I will be too far along at that point to convert everything to it. Or worse yet, the need will be recognized at different times within each Jakarta subproject, resulting in each subproject doing internationalization their own way. Jetspeed is already using i18n (or is it l10n?) for most of its strings. We use the Turbine 2.2 localization service for client specific ResourceBundles lookup and caching. I think Tomcat has also some effort already done. The main problem I see in your proposal is not coding it, but getting any/some/most of the jakarta projects to use the code, and agree in ways to handle the files back and forth as the development process progresses. Also, I think this is not a pure java issue, and looking at it from the whole Apache might help (as the web sites and the project documents would also need translation effort). I think a project which would take care of document and/or Resource bundle translation, coordinated with each Apache project requiring so would be a great thing in terms of infrastructure. I cc: community for insight, since there is much more in Apache than jakarta (even in the java world, there is a lot of XML people working in java) Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache != HTTPD (was Issues with XMLBeans proposal)
Stephen Haberman escribió: On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 12:58:17AM -0700, Greg Stein wrote: I'd do it when they'll donate Python itself ;-) Does wishful thinking work? Believe me, I suggested that years ago. The Python Software Foundation was started instead (Dick Hardt and I crafted the PSF bylaws based on the ASF's bylaws). The main backers of a PSF effort thought that the ASF was still too confusingly tied to the Apache HTTP Server (despite my protests). I think if we asked again, today, that the answer would be that Apache stands for much more. But the PSF has got its own momentum now, so there wouldn't be much benefit for them to fold up and merge the Python assets into the ASF. I can understand that they think the general perception is that Apache == HTTPD. Perhaps measures are already in place to help educate people on the distinction, e.g. you think if Apache asked Python to merge with it again today, they would accept, but perhaps active marketting measures need to be taken to enhance/protect the Apache brand? Perhaps I'm getting too commercial or what not, but I've seen just 'Apache' in many places where they meant 'Apache HTTPD' so I can certainly understand the Python community's hestitation. E.g. the FreeBSD ports collection, the 'Powered by Apache 2.0' logo on my FreeBSD port-installed HTTPD server (is there a 2.0 version of the foundation?). Other things that come to mind are distro installers like RedHat, or even cygwin, let me install 'apache-xxx'. Even the Apache HTTPD FAQ, which I just checked to see how it handles the definitions, the first question, is: Q: What is Apache? A: The Apache httpd server The entire thing refers to Apache as synonymous for the HTTPD server project. And I'm sure this happens elsewhere on the net, as well. E.g. anytime a news site mentions it. Even slashdot had the other day 'Software Code Quality of Apache Analyzed', which was where some commercial code quality compared compared the HTTPD 2.0 code to some commercial web server. (The front page of the httpd.apache.org site also refers to itself as 'Apache HTTP Server', which is a little misleading, as there is another HTTP server, Tomcat, and you don't see it masquerading as the 'Apache HTTP Server' which it can claim, history of the HTTPD project asside, just as legitimately. Perhaps this opens up a can of political worms, but I think strictly branding HTTPD as HTTPD and not 'Apache' or even 'Apache HTTP Server' is a good idea.) The reverse of this is that I don't often see Jakarta, Tomcat, Ant, Velocity, Xerces or Xalan referenced as Apache XXX. So, it looks like the people cannot stick two words together and still be a brand. Side Note: It reminds me of the GNU/Linux stuff (or even GNU Emacs). It simply doesn't stick. I usually say: I work in Jetspeed, an Apache Jakarta project. But even so, people loose track easily. What if some one/a group of people were to form a watchdog group that would bring to the attention of people who get this wrong, e.g. news articles, older articles around the Apache/HTTPD site, the FreeBSD ports collection, the distro makers, etc., that they should infact use 'Apache HTTPD' instead of just 'Apache'. It might be good preparation for the next X project that comes along but still things the general public/developer things Apache == HTTPD (because they do, IMHO, even if it's better than before) and so we lose the opportunity. In the spirit of 'submit a patch,' I'd volunteer to at least be a part of this watchdog group; I'm a little leery of the political side of what it would take to get it formed and the respect for people to listen to it. But if people think its a good idea and higher ups in ASF like it, I'm willing to tag along and help out. I copy community (on political principles). If you want to raise awareness of such an Apache wide fact, don't do it in a java only place like Jakarta. - Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WORA Considered Evil ;-)
Steve Brewin escribió: Achieving sysadm trust is not the same as achieving a maximally hardened solution. Perhaps James could achieve a level of trust from some Unix sysadms by making it possible to mirror the deployment environments that they trust. Fine. But as developers we shouldn't be blind to the fact this is a minor detour on the road to a maximally hardened solution. I think a good equilibrium point between the marketing view of security (making sysadms trust) and purist java technical view would be to allow James not having to run as root under Unix (to handle protected ports like 25, 110, etc.) and then securing the rest of the processing through java security declarations. I think having to run a big program as root looks always dangerous, as it makes far more difficult to know what it is doing or to scan it for security problems. Specially if it is extensible or takes third party extension modules (mailets, etc.) This (and better) hardening could be achieved at the pure java level by granting specific permissions to different codebases/jars, using doPrivileged() when needed and running under a security manager, but I doubt most sysadms would be convinced if they don't understand java security. I, for one, could buy a pure java securiy solution, but I'm not a typical sysadm. Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WORA Considered Evil ;-)
Serge Knystautas escribió: Santiago Gala wrote: I think a good equilibrium point between the marketing view of security (making sysadms trust) and purist java technical view would be to allow James not having to run as root under Unix (to handle protected ports like 25, 110, etc.) and then securing the rest of the processing through java security declarations. Since people here know qmail and sendmail a lot better than I do... how do they bind to those ports without running as root? It is done, AFAIK, having a small program running as root, which just opens the server socket(s), listens to them. Every time a connection is accepted, this driver forks and spawns a different program under lesser privileges, passing it the socket as file descriptor. (Don't take this as a precise description) A small auxiliary process (a minimalistic and security conscious C program) doing this and using some kind of IPC to communicate with a James+JNI process could do the job in a way that is both portable and can be trusted by sysadms. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not a POSIX wizard at all. I don't know how much of this applies to Windows, although sandboxing Windows services does not look like a bad idea. Similar to what Costin and Pier discussed about some days ago re: communicating Apache with Tomcat, in a thread named How ASF membership works and what it means. P.S.) ASF membership means you can speak about those difficult issues and (some) people will actually listen :-P (For those blunt enough, this is a disclaimer) Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How ASF membership works and what it means
Ask Bjoern Hansen escribió: Dan Sugalski wrote an article about why we can't just run Perl, Python or Ruby on the JVM or CLI: http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000151.html This was the paper I couldn't find before. It made me think it was interesting, if it was able to do continuations, which Cocoon currently uses. -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Parrot [was Re: How ASF membership works and what it means]
Stefano Mazzocchi escribió: (...) Wow, a VM with native continuations, very interesting. Question: do you think it would be possible to compile java source code into parrot bytecode? how would the limited Perl typing capabilities would impact that? The key piece is the validator. The Java VM uses the class validator for security contracts (stack violations, typing violations, throwing exceptions, method signatures, etc.). I imagine the parrot people will use a similar technique on class loading (one of the most powerful concepts of java). It is well specified in the Java VM specification. The caveat here is that I think there are patents covering the techniques themselves (from memory). I feel like crosspollinating these days ;-) I saw recently a blog entry classifying kind of bloggers. I was about to comment one kind missing: Butterfly. I feel like a butterfly lately, crosspollinating as I wander from flower to flower :-) I need to focus more, I'll do it when I get more answers than questions inside and I see a clear path forward (hopefully somewhere in the near future as I'm lagging more and more in day to day tasks...). -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The cash of our lives / Dvorak
Ben Hyde escribió: a big +1 on the whole (big one plays nice with my comment, see below) (...) But unlike a piece of capital equipment an open source project is a lot more than it's CVS repositories. It's much more social construct than that. Economists don't really like to think about social constructs; they don't play well with their naive mathematics. I remember casually hearing in Sciences Faculty Restaurant (Sciences was just close to Economics in the Universidad Autonoma de Madrid) a teacher of Economics, teaching mathematics to the poor guys, talking to a colleague something like: I don't really buy into this crap of having an indefinite number of real numbers between each pair of them. Do you? He was so serious and it was so clueless I felt bad about it. I was like 20, just finishing my studies, and I still believed that teachers were superior people. My thesis director there (a very good teacher), in Quantum Chemistry, used to say that Economics people lived in the safety of oversimplification through MacLaughlin and Taylor series expansions, and all of their conclusions were only valid infinitesimally close to zero. This is, BTW, true of most Engineering disciplines. This is no longer true in Economics Research, but it has permeated most of the current Economics common sense, as you say. - ben -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The cash of our lives / Dvorak
Danny Angus escribió: Jeff, Yes, and isn't it fun. --fun snipped-- ;-) So should we only do things that are fun? Moving and re-naming files in an ssh terminal session is not crazily graphical nor easy enough for a 4 year old, but I bet there are enough people in Apache who can do it without sweating that it is, IMO, a poor excuse for throwing away useful information. I must be a weirdo, but I actually prefer command line over file browsers. Plus command and filename completion makes it actually faster for a lot of tasks. Specially for slow remote sessions. d. -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Wiki defaced
Santiago Gala escribió: http://c2.com/cgi/quickDiff?FrontPage (21 hours ago when this mail was sent). Different IP (24.49.157.156), same kind of people. Sorry, I got it wrong. The IP up was the one restoring. The vandalism actually came from the same IP as here. -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Wiki defaced
Nicola Ken Barozzi escribió: (...) I think that the rule must change ASAP to use passwords, even if they only have to be requested to the respective PMC. :,-( 1. The page has been working very well for a lot of time. Don't panic! (TM) ;-) 2. We could report to the ISP to which this (apparent) ppp account belongs, with accurate time (this should enable them to trace this user). If they do just send an email, it will scare the hell off the kiddie doing it. 3. We can close the home page (make it non editable/password) only. The rest of the pages can remain open. The hit rate falls exponentially, so this should be fairly safe. Assuming nagoya is under NTP: June 6, 2003 5:34 pm by P061198255011.ppp.prin.ne.jp It is just a matter of TZ calculation to know japan time. Time + IP + ISP logs = user tracked. [EMAIL PROTECTED] hostap]# dig P061198255011.ppp.prin.ne.jp +trace ; DiG 9.2.2 P061198255011.ppp.prin.ne.jp +trace ;; global options: printcmd . 241673 IN NS I.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS J.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS K.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS L.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS M.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS B.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS C.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS D.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS E.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS F.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. . 241673 IN NS H.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. ;; Received 340 bytes from 172.27.64.5#53(172.27.64.5) in 2 ms jp. 172800 IN NS DNS0.SPIN.AD.jp. jp. 172800 IN NS NS-JP.SINET.AD.jp. jp. 172800 IN NS NS.WIDE.AD.jp. jp. 172800 IN NS NS0.IIJ.AD.jp. jp. 172800 IN NS NS0.NIC.AD.jp. jp. 172800 IN NS NS-JP.NIC.AD.jp. ;; Received 281 bytes from 192.36.148.17#53(I.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) in 574 ms prin.ne.jp. 86400 IN NS dns1.ddipocket.co.jp. prin.ne.jp. 86400 IN NS dns3.dion.ne.jp. ;; Received 134 bytes from 165.76.0.98#53(DNS0.SPIN.AD.jp) in 332 ms P061198255011.ppp.prin.ne.jp. 86280 IN A 61.198.255.11 ppp.prin.ne.jp. 60 IN NS dns0.dion.ne.jp. ppp.prin.ne.jp. 60 IN NS dns2.dion.ne.jp. ;; Received 151 bytes from 210.196.148.99#53(dns1.ddipocket.co.jp) in 383 ms Someone who know the Japan DNS structure? Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Wiki defaced
BTW, I just noticed this page http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?WikiVandals and added today's incident, as well as helping with the translation of the previous vandals (some negihbours from Spain, quite possibly ADSL from Telefonica or some company using Telefonica Data as provider). As Andy pointed, it takes real men to hack into a wiki. :-) We seem to be having like a couple incidents a month. While today's one is particularly disgusting, things are *not* out of control. Targets are Home, ASF and People pages. I bet those are by far the ones more times reached accidentally. One nice thing about wikis is that they use to be self-healing. For instance, someone (Marc?) corrected my mispelling of Marc Portier's name in my wiki here. I noticed like one week later. Thanks. Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How BSD hurts OpenSource
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: On Tue, 13 May 2003, Martin van den Bemt wrote: I just mailed him that he shouldn't waste my time.. What a major idiot.. That is a bit rash I think. The guy makes a valid point; and one which resonates unbelivably well with managers, policy makers, politicians and lobbyist. And there is a warped, but tempting/contagious, stink in his key argument: No BSD code can compete with Proprietary code based on BSD code. As it is BSD and then some. And therefore better. In reality this does not playout that well (due to maintenance, integration and other biz./reality costs) But once you have to explain that - you've lost the oneline argument/debate. And the above sticks terribly well with people who are not that familiar with actual software engineering processes. True. But still a wrong oneliner. We can debunk it with another oneliner/simplification: Is Netscape 7 more popular than Mozilla? I don't think so. Most of the times, community evolution will prevent Propietary+BSD/Apache/Mozilla code keeping pace. There are windows of opportunity, but they close fast. Much like when a Spanish writer in last century could read English and imitated the works of a true original English novelist (or the other way round, no cultural preference expressed). It is matter of time and communication until people notices something going wrong and go for the original. And we are getting plenty of communication those days :-) Still, translation of works does add value (I mean here for software vertical markets or different environments), as do illustrated editions, commented works, etc. for literary works. For all these kinds of mob/darwinistic software[1], GPL licenses get on the way, forcing you to think and take care about how the software could be used in the future, while Apache, BSD or Artistic licenses make the hacker-painter-writer[2] wholy free (not like in free beer, but like in free thinking). ;-) [1]: http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/6/ [2]: http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html (This will be copied verbatim in my English Blog, as soon as I manage to set it up using Stefano's stuff ;-) -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: apache.org vs. mozilla.org
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: on 4/5/03 4:22 PM Glen Stampoultzis wrote: At 11:15 PM 5/04/2003, you wrote: Recently, I've started to dive into mozilla with a developer eye. *very slowly* since my c++ skills are almost non-existant (and my c skills are, h, rusted and ruined by the java garbage collector :-) Anyway, the cultural differences between their style of development and ours are striking. Have you talked to them about this. No, and this is exactly the point: I don't know who to send it to! post it on their 'general mail list' seems a bit ackward. Posting it to their 'board-equivalent' too much high. they don't have community@apache.org or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ! they just have newsgroups for users and everything that happens behind the scenes. Sure this might well appear the same about the ASF from the outside, but I found myself with no reference. Any suggestion? I got very bad feelings when I tried to report a bug some time ago. People like myself and Jamie Zaminsky were arguing about inconsistency of User Interface, and they claimed that the design decision was taken after some usability studies done by Netscape/AOL and never published. They were making the User Interface as crappy as the MSIE one, which we, as Netscape users from version 2, couldn't like at all. This is the discussion: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135331 The message is that their decision process seems to be rather opaque. They were blaming the decission was taken by the module owner, but the specifications for the user interface were against the change, and they just pointed to invisible usability studies to justify it. No hope to raise a vote. They are, though, taking some measures along the lines you point (modularizing the CVS module, etc.). See a recent Slashdot post on this. I would try both: posting in newsgroups and sending pointers to these posts to relevant people in Netscape and in their community. Off-topic (or not?) RANT: I spent more than 15 minutes to find the bug reference, including that I had forgotten the password and that the bugzilla search box is awful (It is not indexed by content, so no hope to find the text :-( ) I *hate* bugzilla a lot. (...) -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RANT: Licensing, Business models and success metrics
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: (...) I prefer to call it the monkey house http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/archives/000769.html ;-) Now that I got you back into the monkey house, even if briefly, we can remove the CC: jakarta BTW: how in the hell has Stevenn found that I'm here just waiting for a pretty girl to knock on me? :-) (...) I have facts which back up my belief that we affected this, but I won't go into them as its not relevant. This is my non-monetary compensation.. . I can't wait to see them on www.f*ckedcompany.com. Sadistic? Maybe. However, I enjoy it. Let me play elder brother. This is closer to the Dark Side of the Force than I like. But, as Conrad would have said: A man must work to some end, though the context is fairly different. http://www.online-literature.com/conrad/nostromo/6/ I don't say that I don't take my trips to the dark side. ;-) (...) I disagree. The Apache licensing model is oriented towards club works or towards use by big companies. I would license a tool if I'm trying That's the producers. I was talking about the consumers (of Apache Licensed stuff). You see, there are always two sides in a rope. (I've just invented a new English saying) But it is true: big companies will license them, consultants and integrators (working for/in) big, medium/small companies or independent, will use them. Contributors will come from both ends. (...) too dogmatic about this. If you happen to GPL and someone wants to pay for a license so that they can embed it, then taking their money sounds like something good to do. But you would need a good niche. see below tools/apps. There are limitations (how to handle contributor requests for the same) but life is a tradeoff. (you give up the restfulness of death ;-) ) vs the soapiness of what? ;-) http://www.google.com/search?q=rest+vs+soap (...) And thats why most Apache projects are tools.. . Not saying this is a bad thing. Just that it TOO has its tradeoffs. In a networked environment you have no longer tools vs applications, but tools vs services ;-) Conclusions? not many: * Community success is community (user and developer) benefit, not downloads or size. This is what stroke me of Andy's post Yes I came up with the idea all by myselfactually I stole it from one of the web pages Jon wrote a long time ago ;-) I respect him much more now than the first time I saw him falling on uncautious newbies (I think it was on me, actually): http://www.geocrawler.com/mail/thread.php3?subject=i18n+bug+nailed+down%21list=449 (...) There are downsides to the Apache model. (As there are to the GPL model). * Companies start thinking Apache is a great clearinghouse of developers to implement their latest proprietary standards. (JSRs) This is to the detriment of community as some developers are in the know and others just do what they say. Projects based on living JSRs cannot truly be community-based as some members of the community make decisions that others cannot play a part of, not by merit but by legal agreement. * Companies fork Apache projects and start JSRs based on them and then attempt to get Apache to adopt the JSR instead of the free-er codebase. This effectively takes control away from the community. The two bullets would not be bad (some communities are very closed) if the JSR was more open, more like the W3C standards. Specially if the big companies had to play their cards in public. I'm strongly in favour of this. I mean, they would need not just to win, but to convince. * Attrition - Because developers often cannot support themselves off of this model (in competition with big companies with brands), You often see attrition at a higher rate than successful GNU projects. Ricardo Rocha's view on this was like: I make money as a Consultant. To keep being a good Consultant, I need to experiment and write code. I give the code for free, just like a musician would go to the tube to rehearse and make some bucks. Doing this in Apache brings me additional exposure for free. The balance was supposed to be good overall. This was a couple of years ago. I wonder where he is now. (...) P.P.S) It's not polished, but I *needed* to express this. It's just what I think, and I *don't* want a licensing flame war. Oh you can't say the word license without starting a flame war. However, we'll just ignore them because I always enjoy talking with you my friend, even if my young age makes me stronger in my opinions than you think appropriate time will tell if this changes with time ;-) :-p I see that your Spanish lessons are going well ;-) I'm sure your opinions will stand over time. I wrote this while I was a bit depressed. Now my back is getting better as Spring approaches. Regards, Santiago -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RANT: Licensing, Business models and success metrics (was Re: answer to Howard or State of the POI )
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: This is going to be another one of my long answers to a short question... Good! (I crosspost to community. I think it really belongs there ;-) Some context: Howard M. Lewis Ship asked about Tapestry/POI usage: People keep asking me how many people are using Tapestry ... and I honestly have no idea. Insufficient feedback. Do you have a way of determining the user base of POI? Any guidelines based on downloads? Andy answers: I don't really attempt to measure this. It would be trivial to measure the number of downloads from the access logs; however, I prefer to mesure it subjectively. Note that its documented on the Jakarta site that Opensource is not about units shipped. I'd look up the page but I'm sure that if I don't someone will do it for me so why bother. Specifically in server side applications. For instance, as Andy hints in my next quote, a single download from a intranet server in a big corporation can lead to tens of thousands of (unsuspecting) users. (...big snip, not that I don't like it, but please read it in the archives) First, POI attacts mail from some of the largest banks in the word, financial institutions, governments, millitary institutions, nuclear power plants, etc. There is even a large Apache backer flirting with the idea of using it (while its irrelevant to me whether they do or not, it is relevant that they are considering it). Next, I measure the success of it by two other things: Microsoft's flirting with open file formats (I'm sure it will be open in that Microsoft sort of way) and the final crux will be the day this http://www.tidestone.com/index.jsp goes out of business. The first clue to eventual success is that Tidestone has re-emerged as a seperate business entity instead of just a redirect to a page on Actuate's site. The second is that they have lowered the price from 15k per processor to 5,000k per server (I'm sure there is a big astericks) http://www.tidestone.com/pricing/index.jsp. This is after an extensive advertising campaign including full page adds in Dr. Dobbs. This is despite some functionality that we do not yet have. I don't agree that it is a good metrics, since it's a crisis situation and a lot of other factors could be involved into pricing (product life cycle, etc.). Also, we are not trying to make anybody unhappy, that would be (at most) a side effect of our approach being successful. But the post goes on: My final measure is how much money I'm making and how many other POI developers I'm able to cut in on it. Thus far (this year) I'm able to derive 35% of my income from opensource efforts (a percentage which is up about 800% from last year). I suppose all of those are directly or indirectly related to POI. I'll undoubtably be flamed for this unique viewpoint, but its a measure which I find important. I've managed to pass on some of this work to two other POI committers thus far. (no one bother writing me offering to do this work, I only pass this work on to contributers to the project) So to me how many people are using POI and not contributing to the project in any way is totally irrelevant. I measure it in actual benefit to myself and the other contributers. To me any other mesure is trivial. This is the point I think merits further exposure/discussion. I'm not going to flame Andy on this, since I fully agree with it. If we cannot extract actual benefits from our involvement in Apache projects, the projects will not work/scale well. Each and everyone involved in Apache projects should benefit in terms of: * better career opportunities * being better known in the industry * having better tools in our daily work toolset * higher productivity in integration * knowing where technology is moving * __fill more here__ The Apache licensing model is oriented towards consultancy/system integration rather than product sales. This is in opposition to other licensing schemes like GNU: * If you hold the copyright of a GNU licensed stuff, you can re-license it as closed source (a lot of GNU-licensed projects are doing this, see Aladdin or Transvirtual with ghostscript and kaffe) * If you hold the copyright of an Apache, BSD or Artistic licensed stuff, it is far more difficult to do this, because everybody is free to do the same. This introduces an asymmetry I don't like WRT GNU licensed projects: the person transferring copyright looses rights WRT the person holding it. I don't critizise this approach with the FSF proper, but I don't like, for instance, kaffe benefiting from my patch and I being unable to benefit in the same way. Thus, I find that people doing system integration and consultancy, both in big and small companies will naturally prefer Apache-like licenses: * you don't need to care about your customer wanting closed modifications, as they can do them -- less overhead * you don't need to care if your customer wants to redistribute the output --
Re: ASF repository URI syntax
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I think in general ./ or ./index.html should return a human readable form and ./index.xml should give machine readable form of the following Or use the Accept-type: as a selector. Could you clarify your thoughts? I assume that you are refering to the Accept: header as defined by RFC 2616 14.1, right? If I point IE 6 at http://localhost/servlets/SnoopServlet, I get: accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/msword, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, */* Opera is more useful, with: accept: text/html, image/png, image/jpeg, image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, */* But IE doesn't specify a preference for HTML over XML, or any other text/* type. As I understand the specification, that would require the server to also use the user-agent for mapping, right? I understood that the use of the accept: header would be for automated download, under the build system control. When you would point your browser to it, you would get whatever is the result of your browser capabilities intersecting the Apache server configuration. I would say typically text/html But a build script (or an aggregator) could ask for specific formats, like application/rss+xml to get a feed with updated packages ;-) Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [proposal] daedalus jar repository (was: primary distribution location)
Henri Gomez wrote: FYI, the JPackage project where I'm also involved, as set up a Java RPM centric distribution where you could find many (still not all) apache's java projects. http://.jpackage.org/ Hi, Henry. I'm using them and they are awful to simplify maintenance of linux rpm based machines. I'm currently using them in all the server that my company manages. Thanks for it. We splitted the package in 2 categories, free and non-free. free packages are those that can be build from sources AND could be freely distributed non-free packages are those with licences which prevent them from being freely distributed (including ALL the Sun external but mandatory libraries like activation, mail...) For those interested, take a look at http://www.jpackage.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [off-topic-just for fun] - Maps and zoom-in
David Crossley wrote: Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: Now I've noticed quite a few folks falling off the shore, and into a nearby rivers and canals. Which unless you are living on a boad - is propably not quite correct. So I'd love to know if that is projection issue; or a true issue with the location you entered. I see people talking about co-ordinate precision of less than 100 metres. So how are they determining their position? Do they each have a differential GPS in their pocket? If someone has some clever facility to determine an accurate position, then please tell us. Differential GPS is no longer needed, they have withdrawn the intentional unaccuracy in 2000, I think (except that the DOD will inject errors in the system when they need it, maybe in the next few weeks). My GPS (a modern cheap Garmin eTrex), averaged during a whole night up in my house drifted no more than 5m around. This is consistent with the positioning in the map, now that I have entered six figures in my data. The Northern Hemisphere could have more satellites round, thus better coverage, because there is more people (I got amazed with the population density map) and more economic activity. But I'm not sure there is a difference in precision between Spain and Australia. WRT Mozilla, I'm seeing it with Mozilla 1.1, no problem (except that when you click it takes a while for the layers to stabilize, with a not so nice visual effect). --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [off-topic-just for fun] - Maps and zoom-in
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: The map on: http://cvs.apache.org/~dirkx/sgala.html In http://memojo.com/memojowiki/Wiki.jsp?page=SantiagoGalaBlog_blogentry_250203_2 I have two scaring maps from Dirk ;-) Spanish comments, I'm trying to not forget my Spanish. I'm trying to _also_ blog in English, but time is scarce. I'm about 20m (60ft) NE. But I wonder what would happen if I add another figure to the urls.txt thing. Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [off-topic-just for fun] - Maps and zoom-in
Torsten Curdt wrote: Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: The map on: http://cvs.apache.org/~dirkx/sgala.html has had a wee enhancement; if you zoom in far enough; the boring digital terrain map of etoto5 gets replaced by mapblast. Depending on which part of the world you're in, the projection is about right :-) Amazing! Now I've noticed quite a few folks falling off the shore, and into a nearby rivers and canals. Which unless you are living on a boad - is propably not quite correct. So I'd love to know if that is projection issue; or a true issue with the location you entered. Well, my position a couple of miles off the right spot. The coordinates are supposed to be in fractions of a degree, *not* degrees minutes seconds. Also, the georeference could spoil the fine tuning. I can't remember the name (WGS, I think) 1 minute is 1 nautical mile, so 1/60 instead of 1/100 could get you there. Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [off-topic-just for fun] - Maps and zoom-in
David Reid wrote: 1 minute is 1 nautical mile, so 1/60 instead of 1/100 could get you there. ^^^ Only at the equator... I forgot to say meridian, sorry. In Latitude, one minute is always 1 nautical mile, In Longitude (East-Westwards) only in the Equator. So I stand half corrected (let's say orthogonally corrected) ;-) Regards, Santiago david - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Maps and zoom-in/muchas gracias
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: I'm about 20m (60ft) NE. But I wonder what would happen if I add another figure to the urls.txt thing. Please try ! Done. I imagine it will need time to propagate. It really was in my cvs home page where I had to edit. In fact, I changed it for my server's personal page, so now I have content in it. ;-) Erik Abele wrote: Really, really great! just about 15 meters off target...(middle/south germany). muchas gracias, the map rocks! ^^ Not to me, except for keeping the noise going on. It has been Ben Hyde and Dirk-Willen who have done the whole stuff. My contribution is really minor, just the http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/map.html and http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/map.html clickable maps dirty hack :-) cheers, Erik WRT my decission to start blogging (mostly about Apache stuff and software) in Spanish, I think Apache needs a lot of i18n effort to go. In Spain, for instance, the Debian Community is making a lot of i18n efforts. We at Apache, I think lag seriously WRT this. Specially when I see, as I'm seeing now, that a whole lot of us are living in non-english native language countries. Regards, Santiago Dw - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Suggestion...
Rodney Waldhoff wrote: (...) Perhaps, but I think we should make sure the web page somewhere part doesn't get lost here. Read or not, the email will get deleted or lost along the way. The web page provides a persistent location for this information for new and old committers alike. Anakia (jakarta-site2), or forrest, I think can use the same xdoc/source document to generate the web page and the email text, thus making a well managed source somewhere be the source of the *one time* mail and the reference web page. I'm not sure about how httpd or perl web site is generated, but I imagine that they will use a similar approach. As I've not heard any objections I'll send an email to infrastructure. Not from em. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Suggestion...
David Reid wrote: (...) I think it could/should contain things like - forwarding instructions for the @apache.org email address - contacts for common problems - information about the committers list and the reason for it - information on opt-in lists such as licensing, community If there are other things (and I'm sure there are) that people would have found useful or think should be included please post with details. There are clear instructions in the jakarta web site on how to handle cvs through ssh, but (at least for people not familiar with this setup, as I was then) it would be nice to point to the page from the email. I thought that my public repository would magically become r/w at first :-) Also, instructions to setup a ssh key and nuke your cvs.apache.org password, or even to send the public key in advance, would be great. I mean, there is windows people who has never seen ssh or any other RSA/DSA tool. (...) Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Classpath Licensing
On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 12:30 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: I believe Classpath has a special exception for distribution, but, AIUI, that isn't typical of FSF packages. I agree. The only issue for me is whether or not the Classpath packages are a suitable special case that we can use. The answer is no. Look, this should be clear from the license text. The exception refers to the effect of linking done by the Classpath code, which is a neutral third-party. The exception is to allow the neutral third-party (GPL code) to cause other object code to be combined without altering the license of that object code. It does not make an exception to any direct use of the GPL code itself, such as if some part of our code did an import of one of the classes within the GPL library. As to the rest, you have a valid point that the FSF holds a copyright on the code. However, Nic is entitled to multi-license his own code (not all of Classpath, but I was specifically thinking of his implementation of JavaMail and Chris' implementations of JavaMail handlers), and thus it seems that their representation would have effect. Nic just repeated what the license says. It has no relevance to a situation where one java app/library imports from an LGPL class. Personally, I'd prefer for them to license their source under the ASF license, but as long as we can use their binaries, that suffices. We can *use* their binaries. We cannot introduce features that depend only on their binaries (or their source code, for that matter). Doing so restricts the distribution of our entire product to LGPL or GPL, which is why it is forbidden within the ASF. If the developer dual-licenses the code in a form that is non-viral, such as the Apache or MPL 1.1 licenses, then we can depend on it. I see perfectly the point. One of the distinguishing (positioning) features of the ASF is that it allows us (at least me, I suspect many of us) to work with clients using the Apache code base, without forcing them to free our modifications to the source code. While I try to encourage contributing back from my customers, I'm not always able to get the message through. Some times it is due to the changes revealing Business processes that they don't want to show. Most of the times it is because they (mistakenly) believe that their modifications give them a competitive advantage. I make my life, at least bug are found and they always allow me to contribute back small patches in core tools. I would not be able to use GPL code in such contexts, or it would be far more difficult, if I arrived with code that forced restrictions upon them. Given that the position of knowledgeable people seems to be that LGPL + original interfaces = derivative work (which I half agree), I understand and support the ASF policies regarding the subject. My small +1 ;-) Regards, Santiago Roy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Hashing it out [was: Re: Clear the air Re: ATTN: Maven developers ...]
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Morgan Delagrange wrote: OK, Java-specific question. It seems likely that altering or inlining LGPL code pollutes the Apache license. Are you of the opinion that IMPORTING but not altering or distributing LGPL classes pollutes the Apache licecnse? And if so, can that be stated on the Wiki page? If LGPL code cannot be imported, it's pretty much useless in any capacity for Java projects. Bingo. The only *reasonable* way of dealing with LGLP stuff would be thru some for of reflection (reflection, for those who don't know, is the ability for java to connect to 'named' resources of classes. it's the most *dynamic* form of loading for a language which is already entirely dynamically loaded). So, suppose that LGPLObject is there somewhere in your classloading space (the classloader is the virtual machine subsystem that looks for your classes, classes being the objects and main units for java programs, all classes are always dynamically loaded) and this LGPLObject contains the method (java terminology for a function) called doSomething() If you use *regular* programming practices you have to do import LGPLObject; then LGPLObject o = new LGPLObject(); o.doSomething(); that will 1) ask the classloader to find that object 2) allocate memory for it 3) create the object 4) invoke the object method doSomething This means, mostly, for legal sakes that the LGPLObject *MUST* be in the classloading space during compilation time. In legal terms, your program will not build without a class named LGPLObject which has a public doSomething() method. So, you *depend* on it. In a sense, with import you're stating dependency in your sources. Now, if we use reflection, we can do Class c = Class.forName(LGPLObject); Object o = c.newInstance(); Method doSomething = c.getMethod(doSomething); doSomething.invoke(); which compiles even without having the LGPL library in your classpath. In legal term, again, your program will *behave differently* if a class named LGPLObject exists in your runtime environment and it happens to have a doSomething() public method. With dynamic loading you're not stating dependency, merely *acknowledging existence*. As the concept of derivative work is about something that extends or change a preexisting work, the second approach will probably skip it (specially if your program tests for the result of the snippet code and survives when the given class is not in the path). I don't think that even reflection will stand in court if your program cannot perform its duty without the given library being there. I.E. fine when alternate services can perform a task, or for non-essential components of a project. *BUT* programming java in this way is *FOOLISH*. Reflection was created to load classes programmatically at runtime, it was not created as a way to route around legal problems. +1 disclaimer type=IANAL ditto. Also, I am just a plain committer, so take it as just my opinion. /disclaimer Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: build systems vs. license issues [Re: Hashing it out ...]
Torsten Curdt wrote: (...) ..the only drawback is that the distributions are not self-contained and not compile-able out-of-the-box. Be sure to blame the approprite culprit, so that user frustratin does not stand on us. Like company XXX forbids us to bundle a essential component because of licensing issues. Please go to url, download it and put it here. OTOH, one of the main problems is Sun Binary License. This license *allows* redistribution with our products, just it does not allow individual download. So the problem is mainly for *new* developers, having more errors and steeper learning curve. A nice workaround for Sun's jars would be to have a software release called external_dependency_solver, where several or those jars could be bundled, together with version checking and some documentation. This would be aimed to developers, as part of the Apache Java toolkit Hei, experts, would this make a way out of this? Is it twisting things too much? I mean I hate it when I have to collect all the libraries to build a specific project - but hey: if the build system does that for me I am fine :) The problem here is that the build system should not assume the responsibility of clicking on behalf of the user. So short of opening a browser window and giving instructions about the directory to put the result into (only if the required stuff is not yet there), there is little more that can be done on this side. On the other side, negotiating exemptions or rewording of licenses is good, but it is a heavy and difficult path. It's sad, but we want to play by the rules until we manage to change them ;-) Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Hashing it out [was: Re: Clear the air Re: ATTN: Maven developers ...]
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Santiago Gala wrote: Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Morgan Delagrange wrote: OK, Java-specific question. It seems likely that altering or inlining LGPL code pollutes the Apache license. Are you of the opinion that IMPORTING but not altering or distributing LGPL classes pollutes the Apache licecnse? And if so, can that be stated on the Wiki page? If LGPL code cannot be imported, it's pretty much useless in any capacity for Java projects. Bingo. The only *reasonable* way of dealing with LGLP stuff would be thru some for of reflection (reflection, for those who don't know, is the ability for java to connect to 'named' resources of classes. it's the most *dynamic* form of loading for a language which is already entirely dynamically loaded). So, suppose that LGPLObject is there somewhere in your classloading space (the classloader is the virtual machine subsystem that looks for your classes, classes being the objects and main units for java programs, all classes are always dynamically loaded) and this LGPLObject contains the method (java terminology for a function) called doSomething() If you use *regular* programming practices you have to do import LGPLObject; then LGPLObject o = new LGPLObject(); o.doSomething(); that will 1) ask the classloader to find that object 2) allocate memory for it 3) create the object 4) invoke the object method doSomething This means, mostly, for legal sakes that the LGPLObject *MUST* be in the classloading space during compilation time. In legal terms, your program will not build without a class named LGPLObject which has a public doSomething() method. Incorrect: it will *build*, but it will not *execute*. It will not build if the class is not in your classpath, it will execute and give an Exception if the class is not in your classpath. I'm speaking about *plain* import up here. So, you *depend* on it. In a sense, with import you're stating dependency in your sources. True. This is the reason why this legal route-around will not work against GPL, but only against LGPL. This dependency was stated for the plain import. Now, if we use reflection, we can do Class c = Class.forName(LGPLObject); Object o = c.newInstance(); Method doSomething = c.getMethod(doSomething); doSomething.invoke(); which compiles even without having the LGPL library in your classpath. In legal term, again, your program will *behave differently* if a class named LGPLObject exists in your runtime environment and it happens to have a doSomething() public method. With dynamic loading you're not stating dependency, merely *acknowledging existence*. This accademic trick is done to prove there is a way to totally isolate the virality of LGPL in Java (at least, that's my personal opinion). I think it would be pretty hard to state that my program can be considered part of the LGPL-ed library if I call build it even if it's not even present on my disk. I'm not sure about this one. You can write a work that is a derivative work from Vivaldi's Four Seasons from your memory, without having the score or a disk at home. As the concept of derivative work is about something that extends or change a preexisting work, the second approach will probably skip it (specially if your program tests for the result of the snippet code and survives when the given class is not in the path). Exactly. I don't think that even reflection will stand in court if your program cannot perform its duty without the given library being there. I.E. fine when alternate services can perform a task, or for non-essential components of a project. Again, you are not taking into account that I working again the LGPL, not the GPL. There is no way to route around GPL. It was very carefully designed for that purpose. True. I stand corrected. But, as Andy has just pointed in jakarta-general: http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]msgNo=14335 I'm not sure a plain import will break the LGPL rules. Dynamic loading of a full GPL thing (not essential) for use in a project, I'm not sure will raise any issue, and it is in a sense routing around it. I write this from a linux machine, and I'm not obliged to make GPL all of my works, as Andy pointed to me privately yesterdat. Though most of the things C stuff I compile does #include linux/something.h to build. And the source of all of these includes is in the kernel, which is GPL. I can use GNU-make to build, even to build propietary code, I think. What I cannot do is to modify GNU-make and keep modifications propietary. But see below. *BUT* programming java in this way is *FOOLISH*. Reflection was created to load classes programmatically at runtime, it was not created as a way to route around legal problems. +1 disclaimer type=IANAL ditto. Also, I am just a plain committer, so take it as just my opinion. /disclaimer The disclaimer applies doubly here. let me state again that I consider this discussion
Re: licensing issues and jars in Avalon
Sam Ruby wrote: Leo Simons wrote: recent board decree (saw it first on the infrastructure list) (paraphrasing): the ASF must not distribute software packages (in any form) licensed under LGPL, GPL or Sun Binary Code License in any way. Sun's Binary Code license permits bundling as part of your Programs. The short form of this: you can include such things in tars and zips for your release, but for individually download. In other words, users need not feel the pain, but developers do. First, I understand it as *not* for individually download, just bundled in a single archive. Second, in jetspeed, David removed activation.jar some time ago (I think because of those issues). But I have reviewed our repo just now, and we still have mail.jar, which, I think, we should remove also. (Sun Binary Code License). If you confirm, I will take care that it is removed from the repository (being careful to make sure we don't break build procedures, updating docs, etc.) Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Open this list
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: * On 2003-02-05 at 18:55, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] excited the electrons to say: (...) Minor considerations: * I will rejoin and stop whining about it. won't you consider being nice and doing that anyway? or is this the only price you'll accept? grin size=huge/ laugh/ Would you join if I publicly state (and my apache.org address can be put in the list policy with this statement) that: I will act as a gateway for non subscribed people wishing to contribute, forwarding mails received from such people to the list. This will be done with no restriction, except: - I will filter obvious spam and hate mail with a reject notice (except where spamassassin gets the email first) ;-) - I will direct people to different lists, if I think there is where it should go. If they insist, I will post here. - A certain lag should be expected. So, people can read mail from the archives, and post through me. The list is no longer closed ;-) Regards, Santiago (in the interest of free speech, and to feel Andy bugging back here) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where we are.. continued..
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Torsten Curdt wrote: Which page/image are we talking about, and in wich browser ? http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/map.html in all browsers;) I've just updated. It was *very* out of sync with urls.txt :-) It was a lacking : in duncan's entry. This line was ignored by scrap_geo.pl. Unfortunately, the generate_map.pl is very fragile, depending on the order and num of lines in url.txt being in sync with the generated markers... Now it should work again, I hope. I've commited a : on behalf of Duncan, and I'll change Committers by Community, since it reflects more on the list goals and purpose of the whole exercise, IIUC (U==understood). Regards, Santiago P.S.) I've got a neighbour, just about 1000km NE. Hi, Sylvain, how are you? Does the same error apply: http://demo.asemantics.com//wms-real/asf/?styles=dotVERSION=1.1.0REQUEST=GETMAPWIDTH=460HEIGHT=230TRANSPARENT=TRUELAYERS=rawworld,comlocBBOX=-180,-90,180,90EXCEPTIONS=application/vnd.ogc.se_inimageFORMAT=image/png Ok - and is http://cvs.apache.org/~dirkx/sgala.html correct ? As the shift you decribe in California is exactly what one would expect if the USGS geoid where used rather than WSG84. Dw. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where to place Agora?
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: (...) Google showed how much value can be gained out of harvesting of simple information (hyperlink) that locally has no apparent global meaning. As do email replies or IP logs for CVS logins. At a different level, I'm fascinated by how UndefinedPages (or just the fact that links are automatically created when you CamelCase them) models cooperative Content Management in Wiki thingies. Even the fact that RecentChangesJunkies exist points to the fact that structural information helps build semantics. There is potentially a huge value in fostering research on data emergence, expecially if related to reasonable-sized and well logged communities like ours. The map experiment (the bulb could bright or be coloured according to data collected) would be easily linked to Agora, bringing additional spacial and day/night information into play at a glance. (...) Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Email Repositories [Was. Where to place Agora?]
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: (...) Google showed how much value can be gained out of harvesting of simple information (hyperlink) that locally has no apparent global meaning. As do email replies or IP logs for CVS logins. Coming to the issue of mailling list archives (this one scratches me a lot, I have barely time to keep with it), an idea that has been buzzing in my head for some time: Would it be feasible correlate emails using Message-ID ? It is suposed to be unique. Some time ago, I wrote a forum software using email as the interface. It used the Message-ID field as index in a database, from which messages and attachments (following old netscape convention) were recovered. It would be great if our mail archives could answer something like: http://nagoya.apache.org/mailarchive/[EMAIL PROTECTED] to deliver the email I'm replying to, maybe with nice thread navigation menu around it. I can't believe something along the lines does not exist yet. It would simplyfy list archives a lot (specially with crosspostings). Am I missing pointers here? Regards, Santiago P.S.) Netscape conventions were representing attachments as partN.M to mean the Mth Mime part of the Nth Mime part of the message. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where we are.. continued..
Ben Hyde wrote: If I hadn't moved the SIM in my phone into another phone they don't support I could try this. http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/archives/2002/09/12/000145.html Since one year ago it is available in Spain. When I ask for a close live music bar, it says there is one at 300m. It is actually at 200m from home. Presumably built on the E911 requirement. Also because there is a strong commercial interest in proximity services, from pizza restaurants to chat with neighbouring people. This has been a very hot market for the phone companies. In Spain they have to face legal issues, so you are required to confirm explicitly each time they are going to give your position to someone (via WAP or SMS), except for the emergency services and Police when they have a grant from a judge. It is not heavily used, though, since phone companies want tremandous money (to be paid by the consumer, crazy) just for receiveing advertising from the neighbour pizza. Something like ¤0.5 (this funny symbol is Euro, for the eighth-bit chalenged). So, any GSM phone in Spain (I think in most/all of Europe), can be located to 50/300meters simply measuring the relative signal strengths from different base stations that it receives. Regards, Santiago - ben - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How get on the map!
Ben Hyde wrote: Santiago Gala wrote: I'm thinking that the best way to show the names, ... Apparently the radius label doesn't work in marker files for my version of xplanet. I'm sure I saw examples of labels floating in space over the markers on the globe. I think a html USEMAP , with the URLs as targets and a TITLE=unsername should work nicely. I'm refreshing my perl to get this generated. (Andy would have used ACME::Inline::PERL, instead.) Meanwhile I'm musing about some kind of policy statements that would allow people to clarify their permissiong of such privacy invading activities... That would be neat. For the map to be a where we are?, the URL should be a reasonable home page, and a FullName field (like in /etc/passwd) could be added to be used as TITLE (althoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] is already public info). Alternatively, a second URL with the true home page would be needed. A shell field could be added (if /bin/false, no name, no link ;-) ). While I agree that a statement of use should be done, I think most people publishing their coordinates in a html file won't object to having the name and a link in the map. Let's see. I'll keep trying to perl the map. (So long since I last used perl for something more serious than fixing a small bug!). Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: Ben - could you also put the harversted lat/lon list there ? Prefered: cvs co committers cd committers/krell make tmp/geomarkers Currently: http://cvs.apache.org/markers.txt For that you only need unix and perl. I'd like to slap a WMS (Open GIS Web Mapping Server) interface over it - so one can doe things like zoom in; or change the background, add roads, etc. Oh that would be neat! David Crossley wrote: Wow, great work Ben and Santiago. I added to the FAQ to explain geographic co-ordinates. Some people have their latitude and longitude reversed. Thanks! The obvious ones are: bdelacretaz, gstein, jwoolley Actually they haven't exposed their location, so I dumped then in Antarctica. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How get on the map!
Ben Hyde wrote: Santiago Gala wrote: I'm thinking that the best way to show the names, ... Apparently the radius label doesn't work in marker files for my version of xplanet. I'm sure I saw examples of labels floating in space over the markers on the globe. Try http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/map.html I had to do some dirty tricks to get it working, cause xplanet will not label markers without showing the label. So I use a 1pt label with the user name (generated through the private_map.jpg) to build the map and then the map.jpg to display. It is noticeable that people with long usernames will have active links longer to the right. :-( I tried other variants, like: http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/map1.html I would like feedback about committing some of these changes or sending patches for further processing. Meanwhile I'm musing about some kind of policy statements that would allow people to clarify their permissiong of such privacy invading activities... Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: Ben - could you also put the harversted lat/lon list there ? Prefered: cvs co committers cd committers/krell make tmp/geomarkers Currently: http://cvs.apache.org/markers.txt For that you only need unix and perl. I'd like to slap a WMS (Open GIS Web Mapping Server) interface over it - so one can doe things like zoom in; or change the background, add roads, etc. Oh that would be neat! David Crossley wrote: Wow, great work Ben and Santiago. I added to the FAQ to explain geographic co-ordinates. Some people have their latitude and longitude reversed. Thanks! The obvious ones are: bdelacretaz, gstein, jwoolley Actually they haven't exposed their location, so I dumped then in Antarctica. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How get on the map!
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: On Sat, 1 Feb 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/map1.html Very nice. Is there any way we could combine this with WMS - so we can offer zoom/panning with ease. I'm not a GIS expert at all, and I'm not sure if I understand. I'm currently downloading the jar you pointed us to, to know more. xplanet can be sliced to show only parts of the world. So we could have a fixed imagemap with zones, also generated at a bigger scale, or use the xplanet images as background for the WMS map. Ben started rather static WRT display. I'm just adding tooltips and links to the URLs given. The map1 variant would need to be recalculated to show true nigh and day, something like once an hour, at least. It also uses available.gif from the apache distribution icons reduced to half size. It could be turned to unavailable.gif following criteria like jabber presence, etc. This would call for a fully dynamic app (rebuilding when a committer signs on or off), or at least something that rebuilds every few minutes. If we want to keep it mostly static, I would say that having a regional division where Things would get progressively bigger could be a solution. The upper layer could be like map.jpg or map1.jpg is now. For inner layers, either the zoom of xplanet or the GIS system could be used: Click on Europe (very crowded), then you get only Europe. Ditto for the States, Oceania, etc. Dw. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How get on the map!
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: On Sat, 1 Feb 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: I'm not a GIS expert at all, and I'm not sure if I understand. I'm currently downloading the jar you pointed us to, to know more. Essentially the url demo.asemantics.com/wms/asf?request=GetCapabilities gives you metadata - in there you find that you can get jpegs and png's and that there is a layer 'comloc'. You then request lat-lon boxes from a layer as gif or png's. You do this from several servers; overlay them and present them. Ok, I'm beginning to understand :-) But because each request is a simple URL it is very easy to make very dynamic web interfaces with little more than img src=... We should probably need a tool to merge several images into one, I imagine. xplanet can be sliced to show only parts of the world. So we could have a fixed imagemap with zones, also generated at a bigger scale, or use the xplanet images as background for the WMS map. Ah nice. Ben started rather static WRT display. I'm just adding tooltips and links to the URLs given. I saw that. Nice. The map1 variant would need to be recalculated to show true nigh and day, something like once an hour, at least. It also uses available.gif Or have one for each hour (and regenerate them once a month). from the apache distribution icons reduced to half size. It could be turned to unavailable.gif following criteria like jabber presence, etc. This would call for a fully dynamic app (rebuilding when a committer signs on or off), or at least something that rebuilds every few minutes. Right; we use Secure Dynamic DNS for that inside our company. If we want to keep it mostly static, I would say that having a regional division where Things would get progressively bigger could be a solution. The upper layer could be like map.jpg or map1.jpg is now. For inner layers, either the zoom of xplanet or the GIS system could be used: Ack - WMS also has a feature called 'GetFeatureInfo' which allows you to query a point. Click on Europe (very crowded), then you get only Europe. Ditto for the States, Oceania, etc. Right - that is why I did the WMS interface; so you can zoom into any level. I think that, since Ben started it (and has ideas on how to proceed, I'm sure) I'll leave it here for the moment. I don't have a clear idea of the purpose of his experiment. I think if would fit as a/the index of the home pages stuff, if it ever comes up. I'll clean a little bit, and commit (if it is clean enough) or send a patch with the generate_map.pl which generates the html file to the list, and the required changes to the Makefile. When he is reading back he can keep on with what he wanted (post it at the web site regularly, change file formats to have separate URL for geolocation and content, a way to get permission to publish this, etc.) For the moment, we have something (not perfect) that will allow to list names so that I can read them (my glasses got broken, I need new ones), and maybe go to a home page or show availability. Anbody should feel free to show a more integrated demo playing with the Makefile or scripts, I don't think that Ben cares, unless we spoil the repository ;-) , for alternative/complementary code or ideas. This is what I have been doing, just jumping on his offering a little farther than just giving my coordinates :-) Regards, Santiago Dw. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How get on the map!
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: On Sat, 1 Feb 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: We should probably need a tool to merge several images into one, I imagine. Or just clever HTML/css ? I'm not at all an expert in writing CSS stuff, but it sure is a good idea. .. I'll clean a little bit, and commit (if it is clean enough) or send a patch with the generate_map.pl which generates the html file to the list, and the required changes to the Makefile. Looking forward to that. Done. I have committed everything. Makefile has small changes and new targets: map.html nightmap.jpg nightmap.html A current result is at: http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/map.html http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/nightmap.html I hope the changes do not spoil Ben's plan. Anbody should feel free to show a more integrated demo playing with the Makefile or scripts, I don't think that Ben cares, unless we spoil the repository ;-) , for alternative/complementary code or ideas. This is what I have been doing, just jumping on his offering a little farther than just giving my coordinates :-) :-) and it sure looks good ! The earth is beautiful, in fact I always get fascinated by the image in xplanet. I have used this under kde as a screensaver, refreshing every hour. Regards, Santiago Dw - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where are we?
Ben Hyde wrote: (...) yes better, committed. Now, if I could get jeremias off my back, it would be great :-) - thanks - ben Thanks to you. It is very funny. Regards, Santiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where are we?
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: (...) If I had to do it, I would do it as transparent as possible, otherwise lazy butts (me, for example) won't update their geolocations and the whole thing will lag behind pretty soon. For map generation, it shouldn't be that hard maybe borrow some xearth routines. I have used the mapblast server, to generate things like: http://www.nodedb.com/europe/es/madrid/view.php?nodeid=4 (I'm not related with the node db people, but it gives an idea of my office location) I'm not sure about copyright, restrictions, etc., since I started using it with gpsdrive por personal (not republishing) use. It starts like: You may use the Vicinity Content only for your personal and noncommercial use, only over the Internet through a landline connection,and only with one central processing unit at any one time. And then it follows with further legalese that I can't understand. Regards, Santiago P.S.) I just noticed that my proxy server is a dual-processor and that I have a wireless network setup... (Shrug) I should stop using it, I think. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASF use of Instant Messaging
Sam Ruby wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Are there any policies regarding IRC use, and is there an infrastructure participation in setting on an IRC channel for a project, or do we just go do something? Several ASF projects use IRC, including tomcat, mod_perl, Struts, Jelly, and others. It appears that at least those hosted by Werken maintain IRC archives to supplement the mail archives (I suspect that all do). My own views on this: 1) People should not be any more upset about the use of IRC than they should if two committers on a project happen to bump into each other at an ApacheCon and take the opportunity to discuss a problem that they are working on. 2) This being said, no *DECISIONS* should be made on behalf of projects in this manner. In particular, VOTES should be on mailing list unless there is consensus by all the participants otherwise. I would add that any *significant* knowledge exchanged should be posted (like a bug found, some mis-documented feature, ...) I mean that a problem with IM (or even IRC) is that knowledge stays out of public, auditable places. This has already happened to me with IRC discussions, because none of the involved people posted the discovery or insight gained during the meeting to the project list. Regards, Santiago - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
