[Computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to AyaMC, undefeated winner of the December KGS bot
tournament!

I apologise for making this announcement later than usual.  My report is at
http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/128/index.html

Nick
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[Computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of the November KGS bot tournament!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/127/index.html
As usual I will welcome your comments and corrections.

   ~~

I am beginning to plan the schedule of KGS bot tournaments for 2017.  The
number of players (exclding GNU Go, which only plays to make the numbers
even) this year has been 7,7,6,4,6,5,4,5,4,3,3.  The advent of AlphaGo has
stimulated interest in computer Go, but has reduced attendance at these
events.  There are not enough to justify the simultaneous running of two
divisions: this will be cancelled.  I will probably reduce the frequency to
six tournaments a year, but I would like to hear your views.

Nick
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Urban Hafner]

Thanks for the writeup Nick! It seems that I shouldn’t use pre-release
versions of my bot for a tournament. ;) That was one horrible performance
and I will have to spend some time figuring out where (and when) I messed
up.

Urban

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Nick Wedd  wrote:

> Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament with 40
> wins from 40 rounds!  This is the highest score I have ever seen, and am
> ever likely to see.
>
> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/126/index.html
> As usual, I will welcome your comments and corrections.
>
> Nick
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[Computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of yesterday's KGS bot tournament with 40
wins from 40 rounds!  This is the highest score I have ever seen, and am
ever likely to see.

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/126/index.html
As usual, I will welcome your comments and corrections.

Nick
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Robert Waite]

The plots of the network output were generated using matplotlib... here ya
go:

https://github.com/Rochester-NRT/RocAlphaGo/pull/146/files

On Sep 8, 2016 12:51 AM, "Nick Wedd"  wrote:

> Thank you for pointing this out.  There are no hidden tie-break
> shenanigans. There is a defect in the script I use to convert
> https://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=s=1068 to a crosstable.
> I'll probably leave the script as it is, and put this right with manual
> edits.
>
> I think Robert Waite reads this list, maybe he'll explain how the graphs
> are generated.
>
> Nick
>
> On 8 September 2016 at 08:35, Gian-Carlo Pascutto  wrote:
>
>> On 7/09/2016 21:21, Nick Wedd wrote:
>> > Congratulations to AyaMC, undefeated winner of the September slow KGS
>> > bot tournament, which ended earlier today!
>> >
>> > My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.2/index.html
>> > As usual, I will welcome your comments and corrections.
>>
>> Given that LeelaBot and ManyFaces1 have the same points, SOS and SoDOS,
>> it seems more appropriate to list both at place 2 rather than Leela as
>> second and ManyFaces as third. Unless there's some tiebreak shenanigans
>> I'm not aware of.
>>
>> The NeuralZ graphs are pretty. I wonder how they were generated.
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Nick Wedd]

Thank you for pointing this out.  There are no hidden tie-break
shenanigans. There is a defect in the script I use to convert
https://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=s=1068 to a crosstable.
I'll probably leave the script as it is, and put this right with manual
edits.

I think Robert Waite reads this list, maybe he'll explain how the graphs
are generated.

Nick

On 8 September 2016 at 08:35, Gian-Carlo Pascutto  wrote:

> On 7/09/2016 21:21, Nick Wedd wrote:
> > Congratulations to AyaMC, undefeated winner of the September slow KGS
> > bot tournament, which ended earlier today!
> >
> > My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.2/index.html
> > As usual, I will welcome your comments and corrections.
>
> Given that LeelaBot and ManyFaces1 have the same points, SOS and SoDOS,
> it seems more appropriate to list both at place 2 rather than Leela as
> second and ManyFaces as third. Unless there's some tiebreak shenanigans
> I'm not aware of.
>
> The NeuralZ graphs are pretty. I wonder how they were generated.
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

On 7/09/2016 21:21, Nick Wedd wrote:
> Congratulations to AyaMC, undefeated winner of the September slow KGS
> bot tournament, which ended earlier today!
> 
> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.2/index.html
> As usual, I will welcome your comments and corrections.

Given that LeelaBot and ManyFaces1 have the same points, SOS and SoDOS,
it seems more appropriate to list both at place 2 rather than Leela as
second and ManyFaces as third. Unless there's some tiebreak shenanigans
I'm not aware of.

The NeuralZ graphs are pretty. I wonder how they were generated.

-- 
GCP
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[Computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to AyaMC, undefeated winner of the September slow KGS bot
tournament, which ended earlier today!

My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.2/index.html
As usual, I will welcome your comments and corrections.

Nick

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[computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Nick Wedd]

Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of Sunday's KGS Computer Go tournament! 
My report is at

http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/52/index.html

Two people had bots crash after receiving the message
FINEST: Still an outstanding command.  I do not know what this means, 
and am reporting it to wms.


Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Nick Wedd]

In message wladvtgcx1ykf...@maproom.demon.co.uk, Nick Wedd 
n...@maproom.co.uk writes
Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of Sunday's KGS Computer Go 
tournament! My report is at

http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/52/index.html

Two people had bots crash after receiving the message
FINEST: Still an outstanding command.  I do not know what this means, 
and am reporting it to wms.


I have heard back from wms:

 The still an outstanding command message means that a
 command has been sent to the engine, but the engine hasn't yet
 answered it. That's probably a bug in the engine, because GTP
 requires all commands to be answered with an acknowledgement
 or an error.

So it seems that CzechBot (=MoGo) and Fuego need to implement something, 
I don't know what.  It's strange that this has never come up before.


Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[terry mcintyre]

Is there a way to implement I don't understand that command? a NAK, perhaps?

 Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com


And one sad servitude alike denotes
The slave that labours and the slave that votes -- Peter Pindar





From: Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk
To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Sent: Tue, October 6, 2009 9:13:17 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

In message wladvtgcx1ykf...@maproom.demon.co.uk, Nick Wedd 
n...@maproom.co.uk writes
 Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of Sunday's KGS Computer Go tournament! My 
 report is at
 http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/52/index.html
 
 Two people had bots crash after receiving the message
 FINEST: Still an outstanding command.  I do not know what this means, and 
 am reporting it to wms.

I have heard back from wms:

 The still an outstanding command message means that a
 command has been sent to the engine, but the engine hasn't yet
 answered it. That's probably a bug in the engine, because GTP
 requires all commands to be answered with an acknowledgement
 or an error.

So it seems that CzechBot (=MoGo) and Fuego need to implement something, I 
don't know what.  It's strange that this has never come up before.

Nick
-- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

[Jason House]

Yes, there is a way. Error responses start with ? and success  
responses start with =. The bigger issue is how to detect crashes in  
kgsGtp. Maybe it's as simple as having kgsGtp kill a bot with  
outstanding commands before joining a new game.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:22 PM, terry mcintyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com  
wrote:


Is there a way to implement I don't understand that command? a  
NAK, perhaps?


Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com

And one sad servitude alike denotes
The slave that labours and the slave that votes -- Peter Pindar


From: Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk
To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Sent: Tue, October 6, 2009 9:13:17 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

In message wladvtgcx1ykf...@maproom.demon.co.uk, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk 
 writes
 Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of Sunday's KGS Computer Go  
tournament! My report is at

 http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/52/index.html

 Two people had bots crash after receiving the message
 FINEST: Still an outstanding command.  I do not know what this  
means, and am reporting it to wms.


I have heard back from wms:

 The still an outstanding command message means that a
 command has been sent to the engine, but the engine hasn't yet
 answered it. That's probably a bug in the engine, because GTP
 requires all commands to be answered with an acknowledgement
 or an error.

So it seems that CzechBot (=MoGo) and Fuego need to implement  
something, I don't know what.  It's strange that this has never come  
up before.


Nick
-- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: kgsGtp (was Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!)

[Jason House]

That already exists: kgs-game_over is sent after every game (if you  
support it). That it's up to your bot to decide if it should  
terminate, run a full garbage collection, pause pondering, etc... I  
think most people use a sentinel file.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 6, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Peter Drake dr...@lclark.edu wrote:

Incidentally, if a new version of kgsGtp appears, the one feature I  
desperately want is a way to tell kgsGtp to disconnect after the  
current game. As it is, I have to either wait for the end of the  
game or kill my program in the middle of someone's game.


Peter Drake
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/



On Oct 6, 2009, at 2:19 PM, Jason House wrote:

Yes, there is a way. Error responses start with ? and success  
responses start with =. The bigger issue is how to detect crashes  
in kgsGtp. Maybe it's as simple as having kgsGtp kill a bot with  
outstanding commands before joining a new game.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:22 PM, terry mcintyre  
terrymcint...@yahoo.com wrote:


Is there a way to implement I don't understand that command? a  
NAK, perhaps?


Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com

And one sad servitude alike denotes
The slave that labours and the slave that votes -- Peter Pindar


From: Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk
To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org
Sent: Tue, October 6, 2009 9:13:17 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

In message wladvtgcx1ykf...@maproom.demon.co.uk, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk 
 writes
 Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of Sunday's KGS Computer Go  
tournament! My report is at

 http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/52/index.html

 Two people had bots crash after receiving the message
 FINEST: Still an outstanding command.  I do not know what this  
means, and am reporting it to wms.


I have heard back from wms:

 The still an outstanding command message means that a
 command has been sent to the engine, but the engine hasn't yet
 answered it. That's probably a bug in the engine, because GTP
 requires all commands to be answered with an acknowledgement
 or an error.

So it seems that CzechBot (=MoGo) and Fuego need to implement  
something, I don't know what.  It's strange that this has never  
come up before.


Nick
-- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk
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Re: kgsGtp (was Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!)

[Don Dailey]

2009/10/6 Jason House jason.james.ho...@gmail.com

 That already exists: kgs-game_over is sent after every game (if you support
 it). That it's up to your bot to decide if it should terminate, run a full
 garbage collection, pause pondering, etc... I think most people use a
 sentinel file.


Are you sure that isn't cgos that does that?In other words, does KGS do
that too?

- Don




 Sent from my iPhone

 On Oct 6, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Peter Drake dr...@lclark.edu wrote:

 Incidentally, if a new version of kgsGtp appears, the one feature I
 desperately want is a way to tell kgsGtp to disconnect after the current
 game. As it is, I have to either wait for the end of the game or kill my
 program in the middle of someone's game.
 Peter Drake
 http://www.lclark.edu/%7Edrake/http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/http://www.lclark.edu/%7Edrake/



 On Oct 6, 2009, at 2:19 PM, Jason House wrote:

 Yes, there is a way. Error responses start with ? and success responses
 start with =. The bigger issue is how to detect crashes in kgsGtp. Maybe
 it's as simple as having kgsGtp kill a bot with outstanding commands before
 joining a new game.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:22 PM, terry mcintyre  terrymcint...@yahoo.com
 terrymcint...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Is there a way to implement I don't understand that command? a NAK,
 perhaps?

 Terry McIntyre  terrymcint...@yahoo.comterrymcint...@yahoo.com

 And one sad servitude alike denotes
 The slave that labours and the slave that votes -- Peter Pindar

 --
 *From:* Nick Wedd  n...@maproom.co.ukn...@maproom.co.uk
 *To:* computer-go  computer-go@computer-go.org
 computer-go@computer-go.org
 *Sent:* Tue, October 6, 2009 9:13:17 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC!

 In message  
 wladvtgcx1ykf...@maproom.demon.co.ukwladvtgcx1ykf...@maproom.demon.co.uk
 wladvtgcx1ykf...@maproom.demon.co.uk, Nick Wedd  
 n...@maproom.co.ukn...@maproom.co.uk
 n...@maproom.co.uk writes
  Congratulations to AyaMC, winner of Sunday's KGS Computer Go tournament!
 My report is at
  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/52/index.htmlhttp://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/52/index.html
 http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/52/index.html
 
  Two people had bots crash after receiving the message
  FINEST: Still an outstanding command.  I do not know what this means,
 and am reporting it to wms.

 I have heard back from wms:

  The still an outstanding command message means that a
  command has been sent to the engine, but the engine hasn't yet
  answered it. That's probably a bug in the engine, because GTP
  requires all commands to be answered with an acknowledgement
  or an error.

 So it seems that CzechBot (=MoGo) and Fuego need to implement something, I
 don't know what.  It's strange that this has never come up before.

 Nick
 -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk n...@maproom.co.uk
 n...@maproom.co.uk
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[computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and ManyFaces!

[Nick Wedd]

The joint winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament were ManyFaces1 and 
AyaMC. My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/49/index.html


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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!

[Nick Wedd]

In message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Eric 
Boesch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
John Fan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes


After I review the game, it is hard to say ManyFaces made a mistake at
move 60 or around, since the white group at the lower left corner has a
flaw. It is a sente for black to settle its F1 group. If white takes
two steps to take the ko and A7 group, then black can settle down the
F1 black group and kill the white E2 group by D2 then E1. Thus white
cannot win the ko. During the game I thought the ManyFaces made a
mistake. But it seems I was wrong.


Agreed.  See my reply to Jason, and the revised report.


Just an elaboration -- it looks to me like 56. g2 f4 f1 is an easy win
for white (the ko no longer matters) and also white's last chance. Of
course, I could have made a mistake.


I think you are right.

I have added SGF links to the report, one for each game mentioned.  If 
you click on one of these, your browser may offer to download the game 
record for you, or if you have things set up right, it may load it into 
your favourite SGF reader application, allowing you to play through the 
game.


Nick
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[computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!

[Nick Wedd]

AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, 
both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively.  My report is at

http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html

It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games 
interesting.


Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!

[Jason House]

Is it possible to show the board for the round 1 open division game?  You
refer specifically to a choice made at move 60...

Also, the processor description for HBotSVN is incorrect.  Rounds 1-6 were
through a virtual machine on a box with a 2GHz Intel Core Duo.Rounds 7-9
was running native on a Dual Core T2330 (1.6GHz/533Mhz FSB/1MB cache).

It also turns out that rounds 7-9 were run with a newer version of the bot.
IIRC, they ran with HouseBot 0.7 r763 while the earlier rounds were run with
HouseBot 0.7 r761.


On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament,
 both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively.  My report is at
 http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html

 It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games
 interesting.

 Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!

[John Fan]

After I review the game, it is hard to say ManyFaces made a mistake at move
60 or around, since the white group at the lower left corner has a flaw. It
is a sente for black to settle its F1 group. If white takes two steps to
take the ko and A7 group, then black can settle down the F1 black group and
kill the white E2 group by D2 then E1. Thus white cannot win the ko. During
the game I thought the ManyFaces made a mistake. But it seems I was wrong.

Another comment on the game ending, StoneGrid responded to the
final_status_list dead correctly. But ManyFaces only responded with one new
line when the list is empty.


On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Is it possible to show the board for the round 1 open division game?  You
 refer specifically to a choice made at move 60...

 Also, the processor description for HBotSVN is incorrect.  Rounds 1-6 were
 through a virtual machine on a box with a 2GHz Intel Core Duo.Rounds 7-9
 was running native on a Dual Core T2330 (1.6GHz/533Mhz FSB/1MB cache).

 It also turns out that rounds 7-9 were run with a newer version of the
 bot.  IIRC, they ran with HouseBot 0.7 r763 while the earlier rounds were
 run with HouseBot 0.7 r761.



 On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament,
 both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively.  My report is at
 http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html

 It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games
 interesting.

 Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!

[Nick Wedd]

In message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], John Fan 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

After I review the game, it is hard to say ManyFaces made a mistake at
move 60 or around, since the white group at the lower left corner has a
flaw. It is a sente for black to settle its F1 group. If white takes
two steps to take the ko and A7 group, then black can settle down the
F1 black group and kill the white E2 group by D2 then E1. Thus white
cannot win the ko. During the game I thought the ManyFaces made a
mistake. But it seems I was wrong.


Agreed.  See my reply to Jason, and the revised report.


Another comment on the game ending, StoneGrid responded to the
final_status_list dead correctly. But ManyFaces only responded with one
new line when the list is empty.


Yes.  Isn't this clear from the final sentence of the round 2 
commentary?  Anyway I have added a statement that it was MF's fault.


Nick


On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Is it possible to show the board for the round 1 open division game?
   You refer specifically to a choice made at move 60...

 Also, the processor description for HBotSVN is incorrect.  Rounds
 1-6 were through a virtual machine on a box with a 2GHz Intel Core
 Duo.    Rounds 7-9 was running native on a Dual Core T2330
 (1.6GHz/533Mhz FSB/1MB cache).

 It also turns out that rounds 7-9 were run with a newer version of
 the bot.  IIRC, they ran with HouseBot 0.7 r763 while the earlier
 rounds were run with HouseBot 0.7 r761.



 On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:


   AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot
   tournament, both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively.
    My report is at
   http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html



   It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games
   interesting.



   Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!

[John Fan]

Nick,

Thanks for all your work.

John

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 1:56 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
 Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

 Is it possible to show the board for the round 1 open division game?
 You refer specifically to a choice made at move 60...


 I have added a diagram.  But it turns out my analysis was wrong, I now
 think that by move 60 White had no way of winning.

  Also, the processor description for HBotSVN is incorrect.  Rounds 1-6
 were through a virtual machine on a box with a 2GHz Intel Core Duo.
 Rounds 7-9 was running native on a Dual Core T2330 (1.6GHz/533Mhz
 FSB/1MB cache).

 It also turns out that rounds 7-9 were run with a newer version of the
 bot.  IIRC, they ran with HouseBot 0.7 r763 while the earlier rounds
 were run with HouseBot 0.7 r761.


 Ok, I have corrected this, thank you for telling me.

 Nick


  On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot
  tournament, both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively.  My
  report is at
  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html

  It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games
  interesting.

  Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!

[Hideki Kato]

Thank you for a long, very interesting report, Nick.

I found a typo(?), however, about the version of HBotSVN.  Jason wrote
earlier games were played by r761 but you wrote by r763.

-Hideki

Nick Wedd: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
In message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Jason 
House [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Is it possible to show the board for the round 1 open division game? 
You refer specifically to a choice made at move 60...

I have added a diagram.  But it turns out my analysis was wrong, I now 
think that by move 60 White had no way of winning.

Also, the processor description for HBotSVN is incorrect.  Rounds 1-6
were through a virtual machine on a box with a 2GHz Intel Core Duo.   
Rounds 7-9 was running native on a Dual Core T2330 (1.6GHz/533Mhz
FSB/1MB cache).

It also turns out that rounds 7-9 were run with a newer version of the
bot.  IIRC, they ran with HouseBot 0.7 r763 while the earlier rounds
were run with HouseBot 0.7 r761.

Ok, I have corrected this, thank you for telling me.

Nick

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot
  tournament, both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively.  My
  report is at
  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html

  It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games
  interesting.

  Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Joel Veness]

Hi Jason,

Internally, I have a constant that is a lag threshold. It is meant to
represent an upper bound on how much lag exists. It worked fine I
feel, the problem was more caused by Goanna's useless play towards the
end and reluctance to pass. I think the solution I have in place now
should be adequate.

I would be interested in seeing your time management code, but most
likely I will not use it. I like to keep everything very simple, and
things like adaptive lag tracking (although cool) is too complicated
for how much it gains imho.

Joel

On Tue, Feb 5, 2008 at 2:32 AM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I don't know if this is helpful, but it is fairly easy to do some adaptive
 timing to ensure not running out on time.
 Total external lag = (game time - time used internally) - time left
 Mean external lag = Total external lag / moves made by bot

 This lag can be used for creating a time buffer for future losses to avoid
 running out of time.  When I run on CGOS, the average external lag is
 negative, but on KGS it's positive.

 There are a few gotchas such as if your bot reconnects to a game (or does
 not support undo on KGS and get into a scoring conflict).  Replays of games
 can mess up adaptive timing.

 If you'd be interested in my GPL'd time management code, I can post a link.
 It does some extra stuff like monitor internal lag (an optional feature).
 It also has reasonable handling of canadian and byo yomi time and unit tests
 to exercise the code.  In January's tournament, Nick had commented about
 HouseBot nearly losing on time with 6 seconds left in late endgame.  This
 was perfectly normal behavior for my time management in late endgame.



 On Feb 4, 2008 10:15 AM, Joel Veness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi Nick,
 
  Goanna (agog) timed out annoyingly in that game against GNU.
 
  I have since implemented a rule: if after some number of samples you
  have a winning probability that is very close to 1.0, just make the
  best move right away. There is no need to spend so long thinking in
  these ridiculous endgame positions. I made some other changes so that
  passing is more highly favored in certain situations, so hopefully
  this will be the last time Goanna forfeits a game due to time.
 
  I guess that is what I get from only testing on CGOS. The small time
  increment CGOS gives makes a big difference with the high latency I
  get due to being based in Sydney, and to the best of my knowledge, KGS
  doesn't do the same.
 
  Joel
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Feb 5, 2008 at 1:32 AM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Congratulations to the three winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament
(there was a tie in the Formal division, so three winners).  My report
is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/35/index.html
  
Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Don Dailey]

Joel Veness wrote:
 Hi Nick,

 Goanna (agog) timed out annoyingly in that game against GNU.

 I have since implemented a rule: if after some number of samples you
 have a winning probability that is very close to 1.0, just make the
 best move right away. There is no need to spend so long thinking in
 these ridiculous endgame positions. I made some other changes so that
 passing is more highly favored in certain situations, so hopefully
 this will be the last time Goanna forfeits a game due to time.
   
My rule is that if the score if over 0.95  or under -0.95  I allocate
some fraction of the time I normally would to that move.   I think my
fraction is 1/10.I always play the move with the most samples,  but
for this I make sure than the highest scoring move (even with low
samples)  fit's this window.

I think technically these kinds of algorithms should be applied
gradually,  so some function could be applied to the score to determine
how soon to stop.The function should not be linear but should be
such that very little reduction is applied unless the score is extremely
high or low.  For instance is the score is 80% you might benefit
from a slight reduction, but not much. 

To find the right numbers, you would probably need to analyze a LOT of
data and see how often you lose (and why) when the score is fairly
high.   Probably not worth the effort!

This function should be fitted to your general time control algorithm
too.   If you have rules to shorten the search,  you should definitely
balance this by being more aggressive about time allocation earlier in
the game.  It would  probably be very difficult to find a good
balance but the right algorithms should cause you to lose some games and
win some games but to win more than you lose. If your are too
conservative it might seem ok, but that causes you to lose games too,
you just don't notice it as much.

- Don





 I guess that is what I get from only testing on CGOS. The small time
 increment CGOS gives makes a big difference with the high latency I
 get due to being based in Sydney, and to the best of my knowledge, KGS
 doesn't do the same.

 Joel

 On Tue, Feb 5, 2008 at 1:32 AM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 Congratulations to the three winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament
  (there was a tie in the Formal division, so three winners).  My report
  is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/35/index.html

  Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Jason House]

On Feb 4, 2008 1:59 PM, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Does the KGS protocol permit one to propose a set of dead groups, then
 upon discovery of a conflict, to say Ok, your proposal still leads to my
 win, I'm perfectly happy to accept that result?


No.  Any conflict immediately initiates the game end protocol.  kgsGtp will
send an undo to the bot and then ask for kgs-genmove_cleanup commands.  If
undo is not supported, it'll replay the game until before the passes.  If
kgs-genmove_cleanup is not supported, it'll send normal genmove commands.
After that final phase, 2 passes is scored like CGOS.
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[terry mcintyre]

Does the KGS protocol permit one to propose a set of dead groups, then upon 
discovery of a conflict, to say Ok, your proposal still leads to my win, I'm 
perfectly happy to accept that result?
 

- Original Message 
From: Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Another 
fix 
which 
would 
have 
worked 
in 
this 
case:  
if 
after 
consecutive 
passes 
your 
opponents 
proposes 
a 
set 
of 
dead 
groups 
which 
would 
cause 
you 
to 
win, 
then 
accept.







  

Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Don Dailey]

Joel Veness wrote:
 Hi Don,

 That is an interesting idea, and I don't see anything wrong with it in
 principle.

 However, given how slow Goanna is these days, I think I would probably
 gain more by spending 1/10 of the time needed for that idea on simple
 optimization! :)
   

Yes, I don't use the idea myself,  I just do the simple test for 0.95.  
However sometimes doing the more correct thing actually is just as
simple. I think this would be just a little piece of code that would
actually replace the conditional branching and perhaps even make the
code look cleaner.

If I ever get around to implementing it myself,  I'll let you know.

- Don


 Joel

 On Tue, Feb 5, 2008 at 2:44 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
  Joel Veness wrote:
   Hi Nick,
  
   Goanna (agog) timed out annoyingly in that game against GNU.
  
   I have since implemented a rule: if after some number of samples you
   have a winning probability that is very close to 1.0, just make the
   best move right away. There is no need to spend so long thinking in
   these ridiculous endgame positions. I made some other changes so that
   passing is more highly favored in certain situations, so hopefully
   this will be the last time Goanna forfeits a game due to time.
  
  My rule is that if the score if over 0.95  or under -0.95  I allocate
  some fraction of the time I normally would to that move.   I think my
  fraction is 1/10.I always play the move with the most samples,  but
  for this I make sure than the highest scoring move (even with low
  samples)  fit's this window.

  I think technically these kinds of algorithms should be applied
  gradually,  so some function could be applied to the score to determine
  how soon to stop.The function should not be linear but should be
  such that very little reduction is applied unless the score is extremely
  high or low.  For instance is the score is 80% you might benefit
  from a slight reduction, but not much.

  To find the right numbers, you would probably need to analyze a LOT of
  data and see how often you lose (and why) when the score is fairly
  high.   Probably not worth the effort!

  This function should be fitted to your general time control algorithm
  too.   If you have rules to shorten the search,  you should definitely
  balance this by being more aggressive about time allocation earlier in
  the game.  It would  probably be very difficult to find a good
  balance but the right algorithms should cause you to lose some games and
  win some games but to win more than you lose. If your are too
  conservative it might seem ok, but that causes you to lose games too,
  you just don't notice it as much.

  - Don







   I guess that is what I get from only testing on CGOS. The small time
   increment CGOS gives makes a big difference with the high latency I
   get due to being based in Sydney, and to the best of my knowledge, KGS
   doesn't do the same.
  
   Joel
  
   On Tue, Feb 5, 2008 at 1:32 AM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Congratulations to the three winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament
(there was a tie in the Formal division, so three winners).  My report
is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/35/index.html
  
Nick
--
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Jason House]

I don't know if this is helpful, but it is fairly easy to do some adaptive
timing to ensure not running out on time.
Total external lag = (game time - time used internally) - time left
Mean external lag = Total external lag / moves made by bot

This lag can be used for creating a time buffer for future losses to avoid
running out of time.  When I run on CGOS, the average external lag is
negative, but on KGS it's positive.

There are a few gotchas such as if your bot reconnects to a game (or does
not support undo on KGS and get into a scoring conflict).  Replays of games
can mess up adaptive timing.

If you'd be interested in my GPL'd time management code, I can post a link.
It does some extra stuff like monitor internal lag (an optional feature).
It also has reasonable handling of canadian and byo yomi time and unit tests
to exercise the code.  In January's tournament, Nick had commented about
HouseBot nearly losing on time with 6 seconds left in late endgame.  This
was perfectly normal behavior for my time management in late endgame.

On Feb 4, 2008 10:15 AM, Joel Veness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Nick,

 Goanna (agog) timed out annoyingly in that game against GNU.

 I have since implemented a rule: if after some number of samples you
 have a winning probability that is very close to 1.0, just make the
 best move right away. There is no need to spend so long thinking in
 these ridiculous endgame positions. I made some other changes so that
 passing is more highly favored in certain situations, so hopefully
 this will be the last time Goanna forfeits a game due to time.

 I guess that is what I get from only testing on CGOS. The small time
 increment CGOS gives makes a big difference with the high latency I
 get due to being based in Sydney, and to the best of my knowledge, KGS
 doesn't do the same.

 Joel

 On Tue, Feb 5, 2008 at 1:32 AM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Congratulations to the three winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament
   (there was a tie in the Formal division, so three winners).  My report
   is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/35/index.html
 
   Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Gunnar Farnebäck]

terry mcintyre wrote:
 Does the KGS protocol permit one to propose a set of dead groups,
 then upon discovery of a conflict, to say Ok, your proposal still
 leads to my win, I'm perfectly happy to accept that result?

No, at least not in any way that the engine can influence.

/Gunnar
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Jason House]

On Feb 4, 2008 2:18 PM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gunnar Farnebäck
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
 terry mcintyre wrote:
  Does the KGS protocol permit one to propose a set of dead groups,
  then upon discovery of a conflict, to say Ok, your proposal still
  leads to my win, I'm perfectly happy to accept that result?
 
 No, at least not in any way that the engine can influence.

 In that case I was mistaken.  I was misled by the appearance of some
 disputes, in which a set of stones changes colours repeatedly,
 apparently as the two players repeatedly make contrary assertions of
 their status.


That's kgsGtp acting on behalf of the engines.  kgsGtp only ever asks the
engine once (at most).  If the command is not supported, kgsGtp will insist
all stones are alive, however nonsensical to humans that may be.  It's a
reasonable default.
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Jason House]

On Feb 4, 2008 10:40 AM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Also, how does kicking work?  A manual kill of a bot+kgsGtp and
 restarting by the user seems like it'd fix stuck bots.  I'm guessing a
 kick is for when bots (like HB06) are unattended?  Does that make
 kgsGtp exit?  That'd require an automatic recovery script on the other
 side.

 When I have kicked a bot, it has always come back exactly five minutes
 later.  I assume that this is a default inside kgsGtp.  I shall test
 this.


Is the 5 minute thing a kgsGtp feature or a min time to reconnect that
kicking a user requires?  It'd be nice if there was a way to drop that lost
time for a bot.  Maybe it's a soft-kick for the admin or a change in
reconnect timing when in a tournament.

Additionally, it'd be really nice if kgsGtp could auto-kick a bot if it's
stuck in a previous game (might only affect tournaments where games begin
and the bot is not ready).
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Jason House]

Open division round numbers appear out of sync.  The quote from me uses
round numbers that are one off from what's in the official report.
Something should probably get fixed.

Also, how does kicking work?  A manual kill of a bot+kgsGtp and restarting
by the user seems like it'd fix stuck bots.  I'm guessing a kick is for when
bots (like HB06) are unattended?  Does that make kgsGtp exit?  That'd
require an automatic recovery script on the other side.

On Feb 4, 2008 9:32 AM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Congratulations to the three winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament
 (there was a tie in the Formal division, so three winners).  My report
 is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/35/index.html

 Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Nick Wedd]

In message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Jason 
House [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

Open division round numbers appear out of sync.  The quote from me uses
round numbers that are one off from what's in the official report. 
Something should probably get fixed.


Right, the round numbers in my report were 1 off.  I will fix this very 
soon.



Also, how does kicking work?  A manual kill of a bot+kgsGtp and
restarting by the user seems like it'd fix stuck bots.  I'm guessing a
kick is for when bots (like HB06) are unattended?  Does that make
kgsGtp exit?  That'd require an automatic recovery script on the other
side. 


When I have kicked a bot, it has always come back exactly five minutes 
later.  I assume that this is a default inside kgsGtp.  I shall test 
this.


Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Nick Wedd]

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
Joel Veness [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

Hi Nick,

Goanna (agog) timed out annoyingly in that game against GNU.

I have since implemented a rule: if after some number of samples you
have a winning probability that is very close to 1.0, just make the
best move right away. There is no need to spend so long thinking in
these ridiculous endgame positions. I made some other changes so that
passing is more highly favored in certain situations, so hopefully
this will be the last time Goanna forfeits a game due to time.

I guess that is what I get from only testing on CGOS. The small time
increment CGOS gives makes a big difference with the high latency I
get due to being based in Sydney, and to the best of my knowledge, KGS
doesn't do the same.


Another fix which would have worked in this case:  if after consecutive 
passes your opponents proposes a set of dead groups which would cause 
you to win, then accept.


Nick
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Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Nick Wedd]

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gunnar Farnebäck 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

terry mcintyre wrote:

Does the KGS protocol permit one to propose a set of dead groups,
then upon discovery of a conflict, to say Ok, your proposal still
leads to my win, I'm perfectly happy to accept that result?


No, at least not in any way that the engine can influence.


In that case I was mistaken.  I was misled by the appearance of some 
disputes, in which a set of stones changes colours repeatedly, 
apparently as the two players repeatedly make contrary assertions of 
their status.


Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Nick Wedd]

In message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Jason 
House [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes



On Feb 4, 2008 10:40 AM, Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Also, how does kicking work?  A manual kill of a bot+kgsGtp and
 restarting by the user seems like it'd fix stuck bots.  I'm
 guessing a
 kick is for when bots (like HB06) are unattended?  Does that make
 kgsGtp exit?  That'd require an automatic recovery script on the
 other
 side. 

 When I have kicked a bot, it has always come back exactly five
 minutes
 later.  I assume that this is a default inside kgsGtp.  I shall test
 this.

Is the 5 minute thing a kgsGtp feature or a min time to reconnect that
kicking a user requires?  It'd be nice if there was a way to drop that
lost time for a bot.  Maybe it's a soft-kick for the admin or a change
in reconnect timing when in a tournament.


I have found that the five-minute delay is in the kgsGtp client.  If I 
kick my bot, it reconnects after five minutes.  But if I kick it then 
kill and relaunch the client, it comes back in a few seconds.



Additionally, it'd be really nice if kgsGtp could auto-kick a bot if
it's stuck in a previous game (might only affect tournaments where
games begin and the bot is not ready).


It is likely that the delay in the client is deliberate, to protect the 
server from a load caused by malfunctioning engines that repeatedly 
disconnect and reconnect.


Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC, GNU, and MonteGNU!

[Raymond Wold]

Nick Wedd wrote:
Another fix which would have worked in this case:  if after consecutive 
passes your opponents proposes a set of dead groups which would cause 
you to win, then accept.


I don't think kgsGTP tells you what dead stones are being proposed. You 
just have to give your own opinion, and it have to match the opponents. 
Note that it's been over a year since I connected a bot to KGS, so i 
might be mistaken. But it doesn't really fit in with the GTP to give 
such information to the bot, does it?

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