Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
On Nov 27, 2007 8:29 PM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ian Osgood wrote: Checking the participants, I see that MoGo and CrazyStone were specifically invited. Also playing is a version of GNU Go (presumably), as well as veterans Aya and Katsunari, and two dozen others. What boggles my mind is the lack of participation in these events from commercial players like KCC Igo, Haruka, Go4++, Handtalk, and Many Faces. It's because these programs will get killed by the top Monte Carlo programs. It's risky competing when your reputation is involved.In fact, it's better not to compete than to compete and score poorly. I was about to call you on the Many Faces case if Dave didn't. He has never hesitated to admit it when other programs were stronger, and Many Faces 11 plays on 19x19 CGOS when the site is up. Also, I don't know if Handtalk is active development anymore. But you're basically right, and your direct language is justified to cut through the hemming and hawing. Some programs do not compete because they are no longer being maintained -- but these obsolescent programs would lose anyway. Other programs do not compete because they would lose. Self-promotion while ducking stronger competition still works, but hopefully more people are starting to smell the trick's age. CrazyStone and Mogo win by winning, not by hiding. I haven't even seen any reason to believe that right now there exist any commercial programs that can make as strong a claim to third place as the latest GnuGo or MonteGnu. Aside: fair descriptions of your program and how it works, and possibly what didn't work, can be very useful. The Mogo and CrazyStone papers are excellent, and it would be great to see more of those one-sentence program descriptions on Sensei's turned into links to actual web pages. If any of you do this, be sure to inform the mailing list. That kind of information is definitely not the sort of self-promotion I was criticizing. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
Nick Wedd a écrit : FUTURE TOURNAMENTS I learned today about the UEC Cup ( http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/ ), a major Computer Go event that is now less than a week away. I wish I had known about it sooner, I would have listed it at http://www.computer-go.info/events/future.html, and maybe rescheduled this Sunday's KGS bot tournament. How do people find out about these things? I am not aware that the UEC Cup has been mentioned on this mailing list. I would participate in the KGS tournament if it takes place this weed-end, but it might be a good idea to postpone it. Aya and GGMC may have problems to participate in both. This week-end would be more convenient for me, but I would participate next week too. PAST TOURNAMENTS I have also failed to find any reports of results from two less important computer Go events which were scheduled for early this month: the Hakone tournament (a side-event to the 12th Game Programming Workshop in Kanagawa), and the Cotsen Open, a human tournament which also advertised a Computer Go side-event. Does anyone have any results from these events? This is the final table of the Hakone tournament http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/HakoneTable.jpg (the program in Kanji is Katsunari) FAST SLOW KGS TOURNAMENTS Three weeks ago, I proposed running on KGS a slow bot tournament (12 hours per player per game) and a fast bot tournament (no more than five minutes per player per game). As there was no response, I shall not be running these. I will run either next year if I hear of any interest. I think this is less interesting now that MC programs are stronger than classical programs even at fast time control. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
Sluggo was the only computer participant in the Cotsen Open. David Doshay used a Mac with 8 cores; he'll have the results. If I recall correctly, it did not do as well as previously, when it ran on 24 Mac Minis. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster - Original Message From: Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:24:08 AM Subject: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various FUTURE TOURNAMENTS I learned today about the UEC Cup ( http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/ ), a major Computer Go event that is now less than a week away. I wish I had known about it sooner, I would have listed it at http://www.computer-go.info/events/future.html, and maybe rescheduled this Sunday's KGS bot tournament. How do people find out about these things? I am not aware that the UEC Cup has been mentioned on this mailing list. PAST TOURNAMENTS I have also failed to find any reports of results from two less important computer Go events which were scheduled for early this month: the Hakone tournament (a side-event to the 12th Game Programming Workshop in Kanagawa), and the Cotsen Open, a human tournament which also advertised a Computer Go side-event. Does anyone have any results from these events? FAST SLOW KGS TOURNAMENTS Three weeks ago, I proposed running on KGS a slow bot tournament (12 hours per player per game) and a fast bot tournament (no more than five minutes per player per game). As there was no response, I shall not be running these. I will run either next year if I hear of any interest. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
Nick Wedd wrote: FAST SLOW KGS TOURNAMENTS Three weeks ago, I proposed running on KGS a slow bot tournament (12 hours per player per game) and a fast bot tournament (no more than five minutes per player per game). As there was no response, I shall not be running these. I will run either next year if I hear of any interest. Nick On CGOS you will notice that a lot of the really good programs have to throttle down. Even though they are capable of achieving 2500+ ELO they are isolated at the top so they often choose to play on CGOS at crippled levels. Just look at Greenpeep0.5.1 on CGOS to see what I mean - after 142 games losing only 3 games it apparently stopped playing.It's difficult to get an accurate ELO estimate losing 3 out of 142 games. Probably long time control tournaments are not that interesting because many programs (especially the classic older programs) are not designed to use the extra time. I think round robin tournaments would encourage wider participation in your tournaments. If I am going to commit a weekend to one of these tournaments I would like to get in more than 5 or 6 games. Even if you have to speed up the time control a bit to get in the extra games. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Nick Wedd a écrit : FUTURE TOURNAMENTS I learned today about the UEC Cup ( http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/ ), a major Computer Go event that is now less than a week away. I wish I had known about it sooner, I would have listed it at http://www.computer-go.info/events/future.html, and maybe rescheduled this Sunday's KGS bot tournament. How do people find out about these things? I am not aware that the UEC Cup has been mentioned on this mailing list. I would participate in the KGS tournament if it takes place this weed-end, but it might be a good idea to postpone it. Aya and GGMC may have problems to participate in both. This week-end would be more convenient for me, but I would participate next week too. Unfortunately I cannot have read Shunsuke's posting, or I would have changed the date. I am not able to change it now - I have other commitments for every other Saturday and Sunday this year. PAST TOURNAMENTS I have also failed to find any reports of results from two less important computer Go events which were scheduled for early this month: the Hakone tournament (a side-event to the 12th Game Programming Workshop in Kanagawa), and the Cotsen Open, a human tournament which also advertised a Computer Go side-event. Does anyone have any results from these events? This is the final table of the Hakone tournament http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/~coulom/HakoneTable.jpg (the program in Kanji is Katsunari) Thanks to you, and to Hideki Kato, and Terry Mcintyre, for the information you have all provided. FAST SLOW KGS TOURNAMENTS Three weeks ago, I proposed running on KGS a slow bot tournament (12 hours per player per game) and a fast bot tournament (no more than five minutes per player per game). As there was no response, I shall not be running these. I will run either next year if I hear of any interest. I think this is less interesting now that MC programs are stronger than classical programs even at fast time control. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
Once again, SlugGo was the only computer program at the Cotsen Open. It would be nice if someone else would bring a program next year. Cheers, David On 27, Nov 2007, at 4:24 AM, Nick Wedd wrote: FUTURE TOURNAMENTS I learned today about the UEC Cup ( http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/ eng/ ), a major Computer Go event that is now less than a week away. I wish I had known about it sooner, I would have listed it at http://www.computer-go.info/events/future.html, and maybe rescheduled this Sunday's KGS bot tournament. How do people find out about these things? I am not aware that the UEC Cup has been mentioned on this mailing list. PAST TOURNAMENTS I have also failed to find any reports of results from two less important computer Go events which were scheduled for early this month: the Hakone tournament (a side-event to the 12th Game Programming Workshop in Kanagawa), and the Cotsen Open, a human tournament which also advertised a Computer Go side-event. Does anyone have any results from these events? FAST SLOW KGS TOURNAMENTS Three weeks ago, I proposed running on KGS a slow bot tournament (12 hours per player per game) and a fast bot tournament (no more than five minutes per player per game). As there was no response, I shall not be running these. I will run either next year if I hear of any interest. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
On Nov 27, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Nick Wedd wrote: FUTURE TOURNAMENTS I learned today about the UEC Cup ( http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/ eng/ ), a major Computer Go event that is now less than a week away. I wish I had known about it sooner, I would have listed it at http://www.computer-go.info/events/future.html, and maybe rescheduled this Sunday's KGS bot tournament. How do people find out about these things? I am not aware that the UEC Cup has been mentioned on this mailing list. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] Checking the participants, I see that MoGo and CrazyStone were specifically invited. Also playing is a version of GNU Go (presumably), as well as veterans Aya and Katsunari, and two dozen others. What boggles my mind is the lack of participation in these events from commercial players like KCC Igo, Haruka, Go4++, Handtalk, and Many Faces. Why does the computer Go market not demand the prestige of competing for titles, as has always been the case for computer chess? It is as if the World Computer Chess Championship only had the participation of amateurs and university research teams. Ian ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 10:16:56AM -0800, terry mcintyre wrote: From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] On CGOS you will notice that a lot of the really good programs have to throttle down. Even though they are capable of achieving 2500+ ELO they are isolated at the top so they often choose to play on CGOS at crippled levels. Just look at Greenpeep0.5.1 on CGOS to see what I mean - after 142 games losing only 3 games it apparently stopped playing.It's difficult to get an accurate ELO estimate losing 3 out of 142 games. If there are a lot of really good programs, wouldn't there be a benefit to matching them against each other at full strength? If it were possible to offer handicap stones, the top programs could offer two or three stones ( or even more ) to the weaker programs, and the odds of winning would approximate 50:50 That might not be so simple for some of the algorithms. In my experimental montecarlo-based program I've found that giving it handicap stones is of little help - its winning averages for all the moves simply rise mostly uniformly and in the end it plays even sillier moves, being confident about the win until five moves after white turned the game around, it finally notices that it is somehow not winning anymore. -- Petr Pasky Baudis We don't know who it was that discovered water, but we're pretty sure that it wasn't a fish. -- Marshall McLuhan ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
I still think tournaments should emphasize quality of play and not be played at fast time controls. KGS tournaments that are only held once per month should not resemble casual play time controls - unless there are a lot of games played such as double round robins. I agree with you that a long time control tournament would be between the good scalable go programs and would produce the quality of play we are not used to seeing in go programs. - Don terry mcintyre wrote: From: Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] On CGOS you will notice that a lot of the really good programs have to throttle down. Even though they are capable of achieving 2500+ ELO they are isolated at the top so they often choose to play on CGOS at crippled levels. Just look at Greenpeep0.5.1 on CGOS to see what I mean - after 142 games losing only 3 games it apparently stopped playing.It's difficult to get an accurate ELO estimate losing 3 out of 142 games. If there are a lot of really good programs, wouldn't there be a benefit to matching them against each other at full strength? If it were possible to offer handicap stones, the top programs could offer two or three stones ( or even more ) to the weaker programs, and the odds of winning would approximate 50:50 Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51731/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
Ian Osgood wrote: On Nov 27, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Nick Wedd wrote: FUTURE TOURNAMENTS I learned today about the UEC Cup ( http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/ ), a major Computer Go event that is now less than a week away. I wish I had known about it sooner, I would have listed it at http://www.computer-go.info/events/future.html, and maybe rescheduled this Sunday's KGS bot tournament. How do people find out about these things? I am not aware that the UEC Cup has been mentioned on this mailing list. Nick --Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] Checking the participants, I see that MoGo and CrazyStone were specifically invited. Also playing is a version of GNU Go (presumably), as well as veterans Aya and Katsunari, and two dozen others. What boggles my mind is the lack of participation in these events from commercial players like KCC Igo, Haruka, Go4++, Handtalk, and Many Faces. It's because these programs will get killed by the top Monte Carlo programs. It's risky competing when your reputation is involved.In fact, it's better not to compete than to compete and score poorly. Why does the computer Go market not demand the prestige of competing for titles, as has always been the case for computer chess? It is as if the World Computer Chess Championship only had the participation of amateurs and university research teams. Ian ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Computer Go tournaments - various
Ian Osgood wrote: What boggles my mind is the lack of participation in these events from commercial players like KCC Igo, Haruka, Go4++, Handtalk, and Many Faces. It's because these programs will get killed by the top Monte Carlo programs. It's risky competing when your reputation is involved. In fact, it's better not to compete than to compete and score poorly. I'd compete, but I didn't know about this one. Many Faces 11 is tuned for much slower computers, so it's not competitive. My latest version is stronger, but unfinished. David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
