Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
In message bea3a7fa-bcaf-49dc-939b-e45667802...@cs.ualberta.ca, Martin Mueller mmuel...@cs.ualberta.ca writes You use the current developers version svn985. Use the stable version fuego 0.4 instead. The performance (winning rate) on KGS of the current svn985 is much worse than the 0.4 version as i noticed. GK Hmm, something sounds very wrong here. a) the current version is 1062, as you can see on http://fuego.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/fuego/trunk/ b) Not sure why you picked 985 especially, but even 985 should be much stronger than 0.4 on both 9x9 and 19x19. Recent builds are doing quite well on CGOS: http://cgos.boardspace.net/9x9/bayes.html http://cgos.boardspace.net/19x19/bayes.html c) We have not been running on KGS recently, except for the tournaments where Fuego did well - winning the 19x19 in November and second behind Zen in December on 9x9. If someone else is running Fuego on another KGS account, maybe it uses a slow machine or is not configured right. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=fuego http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=fuegoyear=2009month=11 Here are what my records show for recent KGS tournaments: MONTH STATUS BOARD PLACE WINS OPERATOR PLATFORM December official9 2/15 9/12 Broderick Anderson 8-core 2.5Ghz November official 19 1/9 9/10 Broderick Anderson 8-core 2.5Ghz October official 19 7/12 4/8Broderick Anderson 8-core 2.5Ghz September unofficial 9 3/12 10/15 Aloril laptop, 1.73GHz Augustunofficial 9 3/6 8/12 Jacques Basaldúa 3.6GHz i7 July official 19 4/8 5/9Broderick Anderson 8-core 2.5Ghz Nick -- Nick Weddn...@maproom.co.uk ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
Le 06/12/2009 à 01:05, Darren Cook a écrit : You also need to set max_nodes quite high or Fuego will keep stopping to clear out its tree. I'm setting it to max_games*50, so for 8000: uct_param_search max_nodes 40 According to my notes fuego uses 75M + (65M per million max_nodes). So 15 million nodes will use about 1Gb. (That is on 32-bit linux.) I miss something: max_games and max_nodes are correlated or not ? why do you chose max_nodes = max_games*50 ? is it boardsize dependent ? I guess that either max_games or max_nodes should be specified, but not both (the first reached is the limiting factor ?) (a new param max_memory appeared recently in trunk, i suppose it is the new human understandable limit) So my config is stupid for fuego 0.4 :-) max_games=16.000 max_nodes=15.000.000 (1GB RAM on ia32) i attached my documented config file (with all the options and documentation i found in the list and on fuego.sf.net) Thanks. Alain ### # Configuration parameters for fuego # # see : # http://fuego.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/fuego/trunk/doc/manual/index.html # http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/TechReports/2009/TR09-09/TR09-09.pdf # # This file contains GTP commands # ### ### # Game rules and settings (may be changed by GUI) ### # Go Param # There is one parameter that is interesting to users: # Timelimit is the fixed time limit in seconds to use for a move generation, # if no time settings are used for the game. The default is 10. go_param timelimit 99 # Change the rules used in the game. # What rules are used by Fuego depends only on the settings in Go Param Rules. go_param_rules ko_rule pos_superko # Go Param Rules # WARNING : Note that entering text in the rules text entry of GoGui's game info dialog is # for storing this information in the file only. It is not transmitted to the Go program # because there is no GTP standard command for setting the rules. # What rules are used by Fuego depends only on the settings in Go Param Rules. go_rules kgs ### # uct_param_player ### # uct_param_player ponder #Whether to continue the search while waiting for the opponent's move. The default is 0 (=no). # # If this is set to 1, uct_param_player reuse_subtree must also be enabled. uct_param_player ponder 1 # uct_param_player reuse_subtree #Whether to reuse the reusable part of the tree from a previous move generation. The default is 0 (=no). # # Setting this to 1 (=yes) is required if pondering is used, but it also gives a small improvement in playing # strength if pondering is not used. uct_param_player reuse_subtree 1 uct_param_player max_games 16000 # uct_param_player ignore_clock 1 # Guess : take remaining time into account (to prevent time loss and try to use all available time for a game) # Guess2 : go_param timelimit N still controls the time for each move, even if ignore_clock is set to 1. uct_param_player ignore_clock 1 ### # uct_param_search ### # uct_param_search number_threads # The number of threads to use. The default is 1. # # This should be set to the number of cores or CPUs available on the system for # maximum performance. It has been tested with up to 8 cores. uct_param_search number_threads 2 # uct_param_search lock_free # Whether to enable lock-free multithreading. The default is 0 (=no). # # You should enable this on modern Intel or AMD CPUs (with IA-32 and Intel-64 architecture) # if more than two threads are used. # Note that without lock-free search the performance of Fuego can even decrease # if you use more threads. The maximum number of threads that can be used # without a decrease of performance, if the lock-free mode is not used, depends on the board size. # Petr Baudis said : (it makes it) faster - there should be no strength difference if you # limit games number, not time. uct_param_search lock_free 1 # uct_param_search max_nodes(obsoleted by max_memory after 0.4 ?) # Determines the maximum number of nodes in the search tree, and thus the maximum memory to use. # The default is 400. # # The node size is 48 bytes on 64-bit computers (and 32 bytes on 32-bit computers). # Fuego maintains two search trees internally. # You should use about 10 000 000 nodes per GB main memory that you want to give to Fuego on 64-bit computers # (and 15 000 000 per GB on 32-bit
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
You also need to set max_nodes quite high or Fuego will keep stopping to clear out its tree. I'm setting it to max_games*50, so for 8000: uct_param_search max_nodes 40 According to my notes fuego uses 75M + (65M per million max_nodes). So 15 million nodes will use about 1Gb. (That is on 32-bit linux.) I miss something: max_games and max_nodes are correlated or not ? why do you chose max_nodes = max_games*50 ? is it boardsize dependent ? My tests have all been at 9x9 so it probably is. When I used max_games*32 it sometimes hit the limit and had to spend time clearing out its tree. I guess that either max_games or max_nodes should be specified, but not both (the first reached is the limiting factor ?) max_games is how many playouts it does. I.e. how strong it is. max_nodes is how much memory you want to give it; if too low then it will have to clear out some moves from its tree which wastes time (it might reduce strength too). BTW, looking at your config file, I think go_rules is not just to set a text string, but also does the same as the go_param_rules calls. Testing from gogui, I tried each of go_rules japanese chinese and kgs and gogui reports all the go_param_rules have changed (including super ko rule). (Also I think someone reported on the fuego list that uct_param_search number_playouts 2 stopped giving any advantage after some bug fixes??) Darren -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?) http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Multilingual open source semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
If you really want to test MFOG against Fuego, it is better to run Fuego on a strong Linux-machine. The Cygwin-version is significantly slower than the full-build I have on the same machine with Fedora. I provide the Cygwin for people who are not familiar enough with linux or are not able to build the engines themselves with Cygwin. --- With kind regards, Ben Lambrechts Windows builds for GNU Go and Fuego : http://gnugo.baduk.org/ Fuego opening books : http://gnugo.baduk.org/fuegoob.htm On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:54 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote: Many Faces is getting too strong for Gnugo. I test using 8K playouts per move on 19x19 and win about 89% of the games. I just tried testing against Fuego to get a stronger opponent. I used fuego-svn985 from http://gnugo.baduk.org/, already built for Windows. I ran it with: fuego c:\go\goprograms\fuego-svn985\fuego -srand 0 -quiet -config config.txt config.txt is: uct_param_player ignore_clock 1 uct_param_player max_games 8000 uct_param_search number_threads 1 uct_command_player ponder 0 I expected to win 50 to 60% of the games, but won 88% of 1300 games. There were several games that Fuego lost due to a superko violation. Am I missing a parameter to set the rules to Chinese with superko? Am I missing a parameter to give the strength I've seen in KGS tournaments? Perhaps Many Faces is relatively stonger with few playouts due to its knowledge and Fuego will do better with more playouts? David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 08:54:39PM -0800, David Fotland wrote: Many Faces is getting too strong for Gnugo. I test using 8K playouts per move on 19x19 and win about 89% of the games. Is there a specific reason for insisting on even games? I still sometimes do tests on 9x9 (e.g. some slight re-tuning for tomorrow tournament) and I'm simply testing with giving gnugo black with no komi; I was actually already thinking about giving reverse komi to get even more accurate results. Petr Pasky Baudis ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
Has anyone tried running Fuego on linux via VM on Windows? Is it faster than cygwin-Fuego on Windows? (I don't know how much VM performance varies but http://www.virtualbox.org/ is freely available for testing.) With a newer version of Windows and a multi-core machine it might not a bad option. Ben. From: Ben Lambrechts benedic...@fedoraproject.org To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 3:44:44 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question If you really want to test MFOG against Fuego, it is better to run Fuego on a strong Linux-machine. The Cygwin-version is significantly slower than the full-build I have on the same machine with Fedora. I provide the Cygwin for people who are not familiar enough with linux or are not able to build the engines themselves with Cygwin. --- With kind regards, Ben Lambrechts Windows builds for GNU Go and Fuego : http://gnugo.baduk.org/ Fuego opening books : http://gnugo.baduk.org/fuegoob.htm On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:54 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: Many Faces is getting too strong for Gnugo. I test using 8K playouts per move on 19x19 and win about 89% of the games. I just tried testing against Fuego to get a stronger opponent. I used fuego-svn985 from http://gnugo.baduk.org/, already built for Windows. I ran it with: fuego c:\go\goprograms\fuego-svn985\fuego -srand 0 -quiet -config config.txt config.txt is: uct_param_player ignore_clock 1 uct_param_player max_games 8000 uct_param_search number_threads 1 uct_command_player ponder 0 I expected to win 50 to 60% of the games, but won 88% of 1300 games. There were several games that Fuego lost due to a superko violation. Am I missing a parameter to set the rules to Chinese with superko? Am I missing a parameter to give the strength I've seen in KGS tournaments? Perhaps Many Faces is relatively stonger with few playouts due to its knowledge and Fuego will do better with more playouts? David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
Ben Lambrechts wrote: If you really want to test MFOG against Fuego, it is better to run Fuego on a strong Linux-machine. The Cygwin-version is significantly slower than the full-build I have on the same machine with Fedora. Isn't that just a matter of using a cygwin version with the same version of GCC? There's no reason why something like a go engine should care what the underlying OS is. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 04:41:49PM +0100, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: There's no reason why something like a go engine should care what the underlying OS is. Not until it gets multi-threaded, AFAIK pthread emulation by cygwin is far from optimal because threading model in Win32 is very different. Petr Pasky Baudis ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
I'm not testing Fuego against MFGO. I'm using Fuego as part of the MFGO regression tests in place of Gnugo. My test machines are all Windows, as are all of my test scripts. So I don't need the strongest Fuego. I just want a fast, strong program that is better than gnugo. David From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Ben Lambrechts Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 1:45 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question If you really want to test MFOG against Fuego, it is better to run Fuego on a strong Linux-machine. The Cygwin-version is significantly slower than the full-build I have on the same machine with Fedora. I provide the Cygwin for people who are not familiar enough with linux or are not able to build the engines themselves with Cygwin. --- With kind regards, Ben Lambrechts Windows builds for GNU Go and Fuego : http://gnugo.baduk.org/ Fuego opening books : http://gnugo.baduk.org/fuegoob.htm On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:54 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: Many Faces is getting too strong for Gnugo. I test using 8K playouts per move on 19x19 and win about 89% of the games. I just tried testing against Fuego to get a stronger opponent. I used fuego-svn985 from http://gnugo.baduk.org/, already built for Windows. I ran it with: fuego c:\go\goprograms\fuego-svn985\fuego -srand 0 -quiet -config config.txt config.txt is: uct_param_player ignore_clock 1 uct_param_player max_games 8000 uct_param_search number_threads 1 uct_command_player ponder 0 I expected to win 50 to 60% of the games, but won 88% of 1300 games. There were several games that Fuego lost due to a superko violation. Am I missing a parameter to set the rules to Chinese with superko? Am I missing a parameter to give the strength I've seen in KGS tournaments? Perhaps Many Faces is relatively stonger with few playouts due to its knowledge and Fuego will do better with more playouts? David ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
Good suggestion. I was getting a little worried about overtuning against Gnugo, since it's the only program I've ever tested against. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Petr Baudis Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 2:40 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 08:54:39PM -0800, David Fotland wrote: Many Faces is getting too strong for Gnugo. I test using 8K playouts per move on 19x19 and win about 89% of the games. Is there a specific reason for insisting on even games? I still sometimes do tests on 9x9 (e.g. some slight re-tuning for tomorrow tournament) and I'm simply testing with giving gnugo black with no komi; I was actually already thinking about giving reverse komi to get even more accurate results. Petr Pasky Baudis ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
uct_param_player ignore_clock 1 uct_param_player max_games 8000 uct_param_search number_threads 1 uct_command_player ponder 0 I learnt the other day that ignore_clock only ignores the game time settings, but there is still a default 10 seconds per move. To get rid of that add: go_param timelimit 99 You also need to set max_nodes quite high or Fuego will keep stopping to clear out its tree. I'm setting it to max_games*50, so for 8000: uct_param_search max_nodes 40 According to my notes fuego uses 75M + (65M per million max_nodes). So 15 million nodes will use about 1Gb. (That is on 32-bit linux.) I expected to win 50 to 60% of the games, but won 88% of 1300 games. There were several games that Fuego lost due to a superko violation. Am I missing a parameter to set the rules to Chinese with superko? go_rules chinese (I think the tromp taylor, but I'm surprised superko is not part of it) You can also use go_param_rules to set each rule aspect separately. (BTW, I find using gogui is the best way to understand the fuego settings.) Am I missing a parameter to give the strength I've seen in KGS tournaments? Perhaps Many Faces is relatively stonger with few playouts due to its knowledge and Fuego will do better with more playouts? Can you compare the total CPU time spent on a game by each of Fuego and Many Faces and if Fuego is using less then increase max_games accordingly? Or, given that you just want a strong opponent for regression testing, forget cpu time and simply keep doubling max_games until you reach 50% :-) To answer your question I also have these in my config, which I got from [1]. uct_param_search lock_free 1 uct_param_search virtual_loss 1 The first makes it stronger when using multiple threads. I'm not sure what the second is doing... Darren [1]:http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/TechReports/2009/TR09-09/TR09-09.pdf -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?) http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Multilingual open source semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 09:05:27AM +0900, Darren Cook wrote: I expected to win 50 to 60% of the games, but won 88% of 1300 games. There were several games that Fuego lost due to a superko violation. Am I missing a parameter to set the rules to Chinese with superko? go_rules chinese (I think the tromp taylor, but I'm surprised superko is not part of it) But it is! :) 6. A turn is either a pass; or a move that doesn't repeat an earlier grid coloring. uct_param_search lock_free 1 uct_param_search virtual_loss 1 The first makes it stronger when using multiple threads. Actually, mainly faster - there should be no strength difference if you limit games number, not time. I'm not sure what the second is doing... You should watch my presentation. ;-) It is a technique for tree search to try to spread parallel-descending threads to different nodes by adding a loss to the node when the thread descends through it and removing it when it is returning back to the root. There is some search efficiency bonus, though the strength gain was very small in my measurements. -- Petr Pasky Baudis A lot of people have my books on their bookshelves. That's the problem, they need to read them. -- Don Knuth ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question
Thanks. I tried giving both fuego and MFGO 16K playouts and stopped at with MFGO winning 123/135 = 91% +- 4%. I'm starting again with your suggestions: uct_param_player ignore_clock 1 uct_param_player max_games 16000 uct_param_search number_threads 1 uct_param_player ponder 0 go_param_rules ko_rule pos_superko go_param timelimit 99 uct_param_search max_nodes 40 uct_param_search lock_free 1 uct_param_search virtual_loss 1 David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Darren Cook Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:05 PM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] Fuego parameter question uct_param_player ignore_clock 1 uct_param_player max_games 8000 uct_param_search number_threads 1 uct_command_player ponder 0 I learnt the other day that ignore_clock only ignores the game time settings, but there is still a default 10 seconds per move. To get rid of that add: go_param timelimit 99 You also need to set max_nodes quite high or Fuego will keep stopping to clear out its tree. I'm setting it to max_games*50, so for 8000: uct_param_search max_nodes 40 According to my notes fuego uses 75M + (65M per million max_nodes). So 15 million nodes will use about 1Gb. (That is on 32-bit linux.) I expected to win 50 to 60% of the games, but won 88% of 1300 games. There were several games that Fuego lost due to a superko violation. Am I missing a parameter to set the rules to Chinese with superko? go_rules chinese (I think the tromp taylor, but I'm surprised superko is not part of it) You can also use go_param_rules to set each rule aspect separately. (BTW, I find using gogui is the best way to understand the fuego settings.) Am I missing a parameter to give the strength I've seen in KGS tournaments? Perhaps Many Faces is relatively stonger with few playouts due to its knowledge and Fuego will do better with more playouts? Can you compare the total CPU time spent on a game by each of Fuego and Many Faces and if Fuego is using less then increase max_games accordingly? Or, given that you just want a strong opponent for regression testing, forget cpu time and simply keep doubling max_games until you reach 50% :-) To answer your question I also have these in my config, which I got from [1]. uct_param_search lock_free 1 uct_param_search virtual_loss 1 The first makes it stronger when using multiple threads. I'm not sure what the second is doing... Darren [1]:http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/TechReports/2009/TR09-09/TR09-09.pdf -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?) http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Multilingual open source semantic network) http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
