[Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
Today a 9x9 computer-go tournament was played within the European Go Congress: 5 bots participating, for each pairing two rounds (with different colours). At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, ahead of ManyFaces, MyGoFriend, and MoGo. http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=608 Komi was 7.5. 16 out of the 20 games ended with wins for White. From the four wins with Black three were achieved by Zen, the other one by Pachi. I think it is really necessary to play in the Tilburg Olympiad with a smaller komi value. Probably 7.0 would be a fair choice. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, The actual result is Zen 8 wins (won all its games, didn't play in two games because of parity), and Pachi still rank 2 but with 4 points only. In the last game against Pachi, Zen did not implement the KGS cleanup phase correctly, it passed while leaving dead stones on the board. So KGS indicates that Pachi has won. However the tournement rules http://www.egc2011.eu/index.php/en/computer-go/75-computer-go-reglement indicate In case of trouble in the KGS counting of the score, the human referee is allowed to change the result - the situation on the board as the priority. So it is fair to say that Zen has won the game. ManyFaces also failed to implement the cleanup phase correctly in another game, but this did not affect the result. Jean-loup 2011/8/1 Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de Today a 9x9 computer-go tournament was played within the European Go Congress: 5 bots participating, for each pairing two rounds (with different colours). At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, ahead of ManyFaces, MyGoFriend, and MoGo. http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=608 Komi was 7.5. 16 out of the 20 games ended with wins for White. From the four wins with Black three were achieved by Zen, the other one by Pachi. I think it is really necessary to play in the Tilburg Olympiad with a smaller komi value. Probably 7.0 would be a fair choice. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
I agree that 7.0 would be a better komi for the computer Olympiad, but it should be decided soon, since the komi affects the opening book, and an integer komi requires some changes in the playout algorithm to properly account for draws. David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Jean-loup Gailly Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 7:08 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9 At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, The actual result is Zen 8 wins (won all its games, didn't play in two games because of parity), and Pachi still rank 2 but with 4 points only. In the last game against Pachi, Zen did not implement the KGS cleanup phase correctly, it passed while leaving dead stones on the board. So KGS indicates that Pachi has won. However the tournement rules http://www.egc2011.eu/index.php/en/computer-go/75-computer-go-reglement indicate In case of trouble in the KGS counting of the score, the human referee is allowed to change the result - the situation on the board as the priority. So it is fair to say that Zen has won the game. ManyFaces also failed to implement the cleanup phase correctly in another game, but this did not affect the result. Jean-loup 2011/8/1 Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de Today a 9x9 computer-go tournament was played within the European Go Congress: 5 bots participating, for each pairing two rounds (with different colours). At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, ahead of ManyFaces, MyGoFriend, and MoGo. http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=s http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=608 id=608 Komi was 7.5. 16 out of the 20 games ended with wins for White. From the four wins with Black three were achieved by Zen, the other one by Pachi. I think it is really necessary to play in the Tilburg Olympiad with a smaller komi value. Probably 7.0 would be a fair choice. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
Of course the participants' opinions matter most, but I do not understand the attraction to integer komi. Draws are ugly and inconvenient. On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:09 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote: I agree that 7.0 would be a better komi for the computer Olympiad, but it should be decided soon, since the komi affects the opening book, and an integer komi requires some changes in the playout algorithm to properly account for draws. ** ** David ** ** *From:* computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] *On Behalf Of *Jean-loup Gailly *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2011 7:08 AM *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9 ** ** At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, ** ** The actual result is Zen 8 wins (won all its games, didn't play in two games because of parity), and Pachi still rank 2 but with 4 points only. In the last game against Pachi, Zen did not implement the KGS cleanup phase correctly, it passed while leaving dead stones on the board. So KGS indicates that Pachi has won. However the tournement rules http://www.egc2011.eu/index.php/en/computer-go/75-computer-go-reglement*** * indicate In case of trouble in the KGS counting of the score, the human referee is allowed to change the result - the situation on the board as the priority. So it is fair to say that Zen has won the game. ** ** ManyFaces also failed to implement the cleanup phase correctly in another game, but this did not affect the result. ** ** Jean-loup 2011/8/1 Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de Today a 9x9 computer-go tournament was played within the European Go Congress: 5 bots participating, for each pairing two rounds (with different colours). At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, ahead of ManyFaces, MyGoFriend, and MoGo. http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=608 Komi was 7.5. 16 out of the 20 games ended with wins for White. From the four wins with Black three were achieved by Zen, the other one by Pachi. I think it is really necessary to play in the Tilburg Olympiad with a smaller komi value. Probably 7.0 would be a fair choice. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ** ** ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
but they might be most fair. s. On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Michael Williams michaelwilliam...@gmail.com wrote: Of course the participants' opinions matter most, but I do not understand the attraction to integer komi. Draws are ugly and inconvenient. On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:09 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: I agree that 7.0 would be a better komi for the computer Olympiad, but it should be decided soon, since the komi affects the opening book, and an integer komi requires some changes in the playout algorithm to properly account for draws. David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Jean-loup Gailly Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 7:08 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9 At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, The actual result is Zen 8 wins (won all its games, didn't play in two games because of parity), and Pachi still rank 2 but with 4 points only. In the last game against Pachi, Zen did not implement the KGS cleanup phase correctly, it passed while leaving dead stones on the board. So KGS indicates that Pachi has won. However the tournement rules http://www.egc2011.eu/index.php/en/computer-go/75-computer-go-reglement indicate In case of trouble in the KGS counting of the score, the human referee is allowed to change the result - the situation on the board as the priority. So it is fair to say that Zen has won the game. ManyFaces also failed to implement the cleanup phase correctly in another game, but this did not affect the result. Jean-loup 2011/8/1 Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de Today a 9x9 computer-go tournament was played within the European Go Congress: 5 bots participating, for each pairing two rounds (with different colours). At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, ahead of ManyFaces, MyGoFriend, and MoGo. http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=608 Komi was 7.5. 16 out of the 20 games ended with wins for White. From the four wins with Black three were achieved by Zen, the other one by Pachi. I think it is really necessary to play in the Tilburg Olympiad with a smaller komi value. Probably 7.0 would be a fair choice. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
Quoting Michael Williams michaelwilliam...@gmail.com: Of course the participants' opinions matter most, but I do not understand the attraction to integer komi. Draws are ugly and inconvenient. I used to think like this as well but for 9x9 Go I now think 7.0 Komi is necessary. This is because with 7.5 komi white is strongly favored and with 5.5 (or 6.5) black is also strongly favored. I was thinking that integer komi would then make 9x9 very drawish but in my experience it does not appear to be so. I now even believe that making a strong book for 7.0 would the work well for the other komis as well. Right now I have a book for 5.5, 7.0 and 7.5 for Valkyria (but 90% of the work is on the 7.5 book). So I think for 9x9 at some point we will all agree that 7.0 komi is the right thing to do. And my experience from working on book development is that a perfect book is a very difficult thing to achieve for 7.0 so tournament games will be more exciting for a long time before we eventually end up with just draws. For 19x19 I see no reason for integral komi, because as long computer programs are not much stronger than professionals the problem of one sided games depending on the komi will not be a problem. Best Magnus ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:35 PM, steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote: but they might be most fair. Only when there is ample evidence that the integer komi is in fact the perfect-play true komi. I'd say we have such evidence for 7x7, but certainly not for 9x9. The fact that Zen won all its games, both with black and white, means that most, if not all competitors are far enough away from perfect play to to make komi adjustments unnecessary. Another viewpoint is that, as long as tournaments are double round robin, two top programs that practically always beat the other with white, will have the same balanced score, whether one win and one loss in case of non-integer komi, or two jigo in case of integer komi. regards, -John ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
Quoting John Tromp john.tr...@gmail.com: The fact that Zen won all its games, both with black and white, means that most, if not all competitors are far enough away from perfect play to to make komi adjustments unnecessary. I think your argument only holds when a superior program plays a much weaker program. Programs of almost equal strength will play 1-1 almost every time. With integral komi we would also get 1.5-0.5 results in addition which improves discrimination. The majority of participants in a tournament are usually close in strength. In the next tournament Zen might not be superior anymore and then we could have a trouble even finding a clear winner. It is of course necessary to play 2 games with alternating colors no matter what komi is used in 9x9 tournaments. Even with integral komi one color might be favored because it may be harder to find perfect play for that color. Magnus ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 2:12 PM, valky...@phmp.se wrote: Quoting John Tromp john.tr...@gmail.com: The fact that Zen won all its games, both with black and white, means that most, if not all competitors are far enough away from perfect play to to make komi adjustments unnecessary. I think your argument only holds when a superior program plays a much weaker program. Programs of almost equal strength will play 1-1 almost every time. With integral komi we would also get 1.5-0.5 results in addition which improves discrimination. Right; to get that level of discrimination with fractional komi requires a double-double round robin, playing at both komi 6.5 and komi 7.5 Such mixed-komi tournaments may be a good alternative to integer komi tournaments. regards, -John ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 7:17 PM, John Tromp john.tr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:35 PM, steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote: but they might be most fair. Only when there is ample evidence that the integer komi is in fact the perfect-play true komi. By definition of the scoring procedure the perfect-play komi must be integer. The only question is *which* integer? Due to the low probability of final positions with seki and an odd number of neutral (non-scoring) intersections, for area scoring (which is used at the olympiad) even number komi is far less likely to be optimal on an odd-surface board size (so this pretty much rules out 6.0 and 8.0). I'd say we have such evidence for 7x7, but certainly not for 9x9. There is of course no proof yet, but all statistics are IMO quite clearly pointing in the direction of 7.0 as the optimal komi; it is certainly the one that currently provides the most balanced winning ratio. (and btw, once we get that proof there really isn't much point in having such 9x9 tournaments any more anyway, right?). Perhaps needless to say, but I'm also in favor of lowering the komi. I'd really love to see a return to 6.5 komi combined with territory scoring (Steenvreter has supported that for years but I never had the chance to try it in a real tournament). However, given the difficulties some may have implementing Japanese style rules, I'd be quite happy with 7.0 komi also. Erik ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
2011/8/1 Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com: I'd really love to see a return to 6.5 komi combined with territory scoring (Steenvreter has supported that for years but I never had the chance to try it in a real tournament). However, given the difficulties some may have implementing Japanese style rules, I'd be quite happy with 7.0 komi also. Why not use chinese style rules but giving an extra point to white if black plays one move more? That would do the trick. Andrés ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
2011/8/1 Andrés Domínguez andres...@gmail.com: 2011/8/1 Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com: I'd really love to see a return to 6.5 komi combined with territory scoring (Steenvreter has supported that for years but I never had the chance to try it in a real tournament). However, given the difficulties some may have implementing Japanese style rules, I'd be quite happy with 7.0 komi also. Why not use chinese style rules but giving an extra point to white if black plays one move more? That would do the trick. It's a bit more subtle than that (e.g., think of mid-game passes, handicap stones, points in seki, game vs confirmation phase, etc.), but roughly speaking, yes, that does the trick. It is certainly feasible to 'translate' and area score to a territory score (in fact that is what I do in my program). However, when talking about the rules it just seems so much more natural to just describe the normal procedure for territory scoring :-) Erik ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
Hi Jean, I and Yamato concluded that this must be kgsGtp's (or the server's) bug because there are no kgs-genmove_cleanup command on my log file of the communications between the server and the client in that game. In contrast, in the game Zen vs MyGoFriend in which Zen did correct cleanup, the commands are. Hideki Jean-loup Gailly: caasp4a2n8veoex7cmnqfiwjo0j+d+reavdaknnh8osfzv3z...@mail.gmail.com: At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, The actual result is Zen 8 wins (won all its games, didn't play in two games because of parity), and Pachi still rank 2 but with 4 points only. In the last game against Pachi, Zen did not implement the KGS cleanup phase correctly, it passed while leaving dead stones on the board. So KGS indicates that Pachi has won. However the tournement rules http://www.egc2011.eu/index.php/en/computer-go/75-computer-go-reglement indicate In case of trouble in the KGS counting of the score, the human referee is allowed to change the result - the situation on the board as the priority. So it is fair to say that Zen has won the game. ManyFaces also failed to implement the cleanup phase correctly in another game, but this did not affect the result. Jean-loup 2011/8/1 Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de Today a 9x9 computer-go tournament was played within the European Go Congress: 5 bots participating, for each pairing two rounds (with different colours). At the end Zen was a convincing winner, with 9 wins out of ten games. Pachi on rank 2 with 5 points, ahead of ManyFaces, MyGoFriend, and MoGo. http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=608 Komi was 7.5. 16 out of the 20 games ended with wins for White. From the four wins with Black three were achieved by Zen, the other one by Pachi. I think it is really necessary to play in the Tilburg Olympiad with a smaller komi value. Probably 7.0 would be a fair choice. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go inline file ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] EGC computer-go tournament 9x9
I was thinking that integer komi would then make 9x9 very drawish but in my experience it does not appear to be so So I think for 9x9 at some point we will all agree that 7.0 komi is the right thing to do. And my experience from working on book development is that a perfect book is a very difficult thing to achieve for 7.0 so tournament games will be more exciting for a long time before we eventually end up with just draws. There is also the nice quality that programs (or their authors?) can make a strategic decision to go for a draw, or gamble and go for a win. Thinking about this, it requires the tournament rules to specify if a program is allowed to be aware of the results (or even current board position) of the other games in the same round. Darren P.S. As for correct komi, I'm convinced that 8pt or 9pt favours white. I'm not yet convinced that 5pt or 6pt (in Japanese rules) favours black. But I agree that perfect komi is likely to turn out to be 7pt. Magnus, do you have an opening line for 5.5pt komi that you think is a certain black win? -- Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work) http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles) ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
