[Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Did you use it on Many Faces? How much benefit did you see there? On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote: Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
This is the info on KGS user crazystone: running on a 24-core PC. I've watched a few games. It impresses me, and more to the point, impresses the high-dan players. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Unix/Linux Systems Administration Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice. From: David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On 02.01.2012 20:42, terry mcintyre wrote: impresses the high-dan players. We know that PCs are fast at fast calculations. Let them play slow games so that human 5d get their chance to think. I would play a couple of games if a) thinking times are reasonable and b) I do not have to lose the fight of clicking the fastest and having the fastest internet connection to KGS for the program's game requests. -- robert jasiek ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Some side information: Robert is a strong human go player, see http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player_Card.php?key=10213203 and also the author of books on go theory. He also has experience playing against the current CrazyStone on KGS, his KGS account is rsun. I would like to see him playing against CrazyStone and/or Zen at slow time controls. For the programmers, he as an opponent might also give valuable feedback. Ingo. Original-Nachricht Datum: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:00:22 +0100 Von: Robert Jasiek jas...@snafu.de An: computer-go@dvandva.org Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen On 02.01.2012 20:42, terry mcintyre wrote: impresses the high-dan players. We know that PCs are fast at fast calculations. Let them play slow games so that human 5d get their chance to think. I would play a couple of games if a) thinking times are reasonable and b) I do not have to lose the fight of clicking the fastest and having the fastest internet connection to KGS for the program's game requests. -- robert jasiek ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
What time control was used for these games or did it vary? Don On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:42 PM, terry mcintyre terrymcint...@yahoo.comwrote: This is the info on KGS user crazystone: running on a 24-core PC. I've watched a few games. It impresses me, and more to the point, impresses the high-dan players. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Unix/Linux Systems Administration Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice. -- *From:* David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org *Sent:* Monday, January 2, 2012 2:12 PM *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Hello Don, What time control was used for these games or did it vary? In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with 9 byoyomi phases. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance! Don On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.dewrote: Hello Don, What time control was used for these games or did it vary? In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with 9 byoyomi phases. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Sorry, I made a mistake and have to correct myself: ... He [Robert Jasiek] also has experience playing against the current CrazyStone on KGS, his KGS account is rsun. rsun is NOT Robert Jasiek. Robert's account on KGS is sum. Thanks to Thomas Wolf for pointing this out. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
A 24 core SMP PC should be a little more efficient/stronger than the 26 core cluster that Zen uses. David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:43 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen This is the info on KGS user crazystone: running on a 24-core PC. I've watched a few games. It impresses me, and more to the point, impresses the high-dan players. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Unix/Linux Systems Administration Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice. _ From: David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On 2 janv. 2012, at 20:12, David Fotland wrote: Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Thanks for the nice comments. I am running on 24 cores (Dell PowerEdge R905 Rack Server, 4 x Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 8439 SE, 2.8GHz). But it is only one machine. So my 24 cores are probably much more efficient than the 26 cores of Zen. Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had forgotten to tune for a few years. I tuned it with CLOP, but I would have probably got the same result if I had tuned it manually (about +100 Elo in self play, both on 9x9 and 19x19). CLOP simply makes tuning a lot more convenient. I really enjoy using it very much. I am glad if people like it too. I also fixed a silly bug that was worth 30 Elo in self-play. Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012. Rémi -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
I tried it, but got no benefit so far. It claimed to find better settings for most parameters, but when I used them the program wasnt any stronger. From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:22 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Did you use it on Many Faces? How much benefit did you see there? On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 year=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 year=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On 02/01/2012 21:05, Don Dailey wrote: That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance! Maintaining a 5-dan performance certainly is impressive - but the fast time limit makes it somewhat less so. Programs handle fast time limits better than humans do. This sounds as if I am decrying CrazyStone's performance. That is certainly not my intention. I'll try again: A 5.4-dan performance is pretty awesome. A 5.4-dan performance with a strong positive slope is even more awesome. A 5.4-dan performance with a positive second derivative is unheard of! Nick Don On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de mailto:3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Hello Don, What time control was used for these games or did it vary? In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with 9 byoyomi phases. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org mailto:Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
that's great to hear! there's a categorical and strong empirical difference between players on kgs that are over 5d from those who are below 5d. it's shockingly clear in slowish games. i'd love to see a machine at 6d, and expect that there's nothing stopping it from happening soon. keep up the great work -- the bigger the pool of strong machine players, the better for everyone. s. On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr wrote: On 2 janv. 2012, at 20:12, David Fotland wrote: Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Thanks for the nice comments. I am running on 24 cores (Dell PowerEdge R905 Rack Server, 4 x Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 8439 SE, 2.8GHz). But it is only one machine. So my 24 cores are probably much more efficient than the 26 cores of Zen. Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had forgotten to tune for a few years. I tuned it with CLOP, but I would have probably got the same result if I had tuned it manually (about +100 Elo in self play, both on 9x9 and 19x19). CLOP simply makes tuning a lot more convenient. I really enjoy using it very much. I am glad if people like it too. I also fixed a silly bug that was worth 30 Elo in self-play. Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012. Rémi -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote: On 02/01/2012 21:05, Don Dailey wrote: That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance! Maintaining a 5-dan performance certainly is impressive - but the fast time limit makes it somewhat less so. Programs handle fast time limits better than humans do. I'm glad that is finally understood. Go back just a few years ago on this list where I got blasted by almost everyone for saying the same thing. The idea being put forth was that computers need more time to think and that humans are intuitive (which apparently means they don't need to time to think) and extra time isn't of much use to them because they know pretty much at a glance what to play.Sound pretty stupid doesn't it?I felt like I was beating my head against the wall trying to explain how it works. Don This sounds as if I am decrying CrazyStone's performance. That is certainly not my intention. I'll try again: A 5.4-dan performance is pretty awesome. A 5.4-dan performance with a strong positive slope is even more awesome. A 5.4-dan performance with a positive second derivative is unheard of! Nick Don On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de mailto:3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Hello Don, What time control was used for these games or did it vary? In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with 9 byoyomi phases. Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/**freephonehttp://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org mailto:Computer-go@dvandva.**orgComputer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.dewrote: Hello Don, What time control was used for these games or did it vary? In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with 9 byoyomi phases. I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long for the byoyomi phases? I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all, but if you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that this is going to make the computer really look good. For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard. You could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more by setting the time to 1 second per move. Don Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
For the last year or so, all the bots have been using this time control (nine 15-second periods), so the bot ratings can be compared. All the periods are the same 15 seconds. So any time over 15 seconds uses one of the periods (over 30 seconds would use two periods, etc). 15 seconds is pretty reasonable for a quick game, and 9 periods allows a couple of long thinks. David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Don Dailey Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 2:28 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Hello Don, What time control was used for these games or did it vary? In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with 9 byoyomi phases. I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long for the byoyomi phases? I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all, but if you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that this is going to make the computer really look good. For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard. You could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more by setting the time to 1 second per move. Don Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
I have played several games with the 5 dan CrazyStone (24 cores) and felt that it is pretty close to the 5 dan Zen (26 cores) in playing strength. In fact, CrazyStone’s playing style is much more balanced and human-like than Zen. Specifically, CrazyStone is better than Zen at winning without killing or fighting. It has a very good sense of territory and features very good pattern shapes, though it is still weaker than Zen in handling semeais. Blitz games such as 15s/move favor MCTS programs. I expect both Zen and CrazyStone will drop to 4d in longer games. The reason is that MCTS programs are still not able to (in my opinion) read deepily like human players in situations such as big semeai or life-and-death. Also, when against strong Go players in fast games MCTS programs rely heavily on accurate territory counting. In longer games, this advantage will decrease most if not at all. Aja From: Don Dailey Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 3:28 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Hello Don, What time control was used for these games or did it vary? In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with 9 byoyomi phases. I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long for the byoyomi phases? I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all, but if you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that this is going to make the computer really look good. For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard. You could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more by setting the time to 1 second per move. Don Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote: keep up the great work -- the bigger the pool of strong machine players, the better for everyone. Right. Having a pool of several bots with similar strength in the top typically results in faster progress. And one day (maybe in two years or so) we need someone like Fabien Letouzy in chess: making the source of his Fruit public in 2005 was the starting point for an explosion in performance. (By the way: congratulations to Don Dailey for his strong new chess program Komodo 4! He made it public a few days before Christmas. It jumped immediately to rank 2 in one of the most serious rating lists, see at http://www.inwoba.de/ But one day after Christmas another new program (Critter 1.4) entered the scene and surpassed Komodo by 2 Elo points. So, Don's baby is now on a very strong third rank in chess.) *** One point I forgot in the original message: Congratulations to Remi for the fine performance of his bot! Remi Coulom wrote: The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had forgotten to tune for a few years. That is one of the errors one can make. Two others are: (i) forgetting to introduce new parameters; (ii) forgetting to kick out some old parameters, when new ones come in. Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. One question out of interest: At which time controls did you run these selfplay games? Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Thanks for the nice explanation.So this is a kind of defacto standard then - that is a good thing. Don On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:47 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote: For the last year or so, all the bots have been using this time control (nine 15-second periods), so the bot ratings can be compared. All the periods are the same 15 seconds. So any time over 15 seconds uses one of the periods (over 30 seconds would use two periods, etc). 15 seconds is pretty reasonable for a quick game, and 9 periods allows a couple of long thinks. ** ** David ** ** *From:* computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] *On Behalf Of *Don Dailey *Sent:* Monday, January 02, 2012 2:28 PM *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen ** ** ** ** On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote: Hello Don, What time control was used for these games or did it vary? In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with 9 byoyomi phases. ** ** I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long for the byoyomi phases? ** ** I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all, but if you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that this is going to make the computer really look good. ** ** For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard. You could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more by setting the time to 1 second per move. ** ** Don ** ** ** ** Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ** ** ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Rémi Coulom: 4f1b78d7-1591-4921-9483-f81825d5a...@free.fr: On 2 janv. 2012, at 20:12, David Fotland wrote: Very impressive. Does anyone know the relative hardware? I think the 5 dan Zen was running on 26 cores. Thanks for the nice comments. I am running on 24 cores (Dell PowerEdge R905 Rack Server, 4 x Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 8439 SE, 2.8GHz). But it is only one machine. So my 24 cores are probably much more efficient than the 26 cores of Zen. The main pc of my cluster is a dual Xeon X5680, 2 x six-core of 4.2 GHz (total 50.4 GHz), and Rémi's pc is 67.2 (12 x 2.8) GHz in total. Also the IPC (instructions per clock) of Gulftown Xeon could be slightly better than Istanbul Opteron. So, I believe the difference of the hardware is not so much. Hideki Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP? It's an excellent tool BTW. Thank you for sharing it. The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had forgotten to tune for a few years. I tuned it with CLOP, but I would have probably got the same result if I had tuned it manually (about +100 Elo in self play, both on 9x9 and 19x19). CLOP simply makes tuning a lot more convenient. I really enjoy using it very much. I am glad if people like it too. I also fixed a silly bug that was worth 30 Elo in self-play. Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d in 2012. Rémi -David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen Hello everybody, let us start the new year also in the mailing list. It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for its position as leading bot on KGS. Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom) has started a long playing session in KGS computer room, and has now established a stable 5-dan rating. See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone and the list of games at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12 and http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1 Ingo (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS before the European Go Congress in July 2012) -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Hideki Kato mailto:hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
