Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On 7 janv. 2012, at 21:07, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't happen in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January, out of 56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive, although there is long way to beat 6d's in even game. I take the bet. Zen19D is 5.99 dan today. No way it won't improve to 6d. I would take the bet for Crazy Stone too. Rémi ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] January KGS bot tournament
The January KGS bot tournament will be held next Sunday, January 15th, starting at 08:00 UTC and finishing at 16:00. It will be an 8-round Swiss with 19x19 boards and 29 minutes each (plus some fast Canadian overtime). It will use Chinese rules with 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=669 . Please send your registration email (with the words KGS Tournament Registration in the title) to me at maproom at gmail dot com (converted to a valid address by using @ and .). -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Rémi Coulom wrote: On 7 janv. 2012, at 21:07, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't happen in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January, out of 56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive, although there is long way to beat 6d's in even game. I take the bet. Zen19D is 5.99 dan today. No way it won't improve to 6d. I would take the bet for Crazy Stone too. Reaching 6 Dan may well happen, I only want to say that the difference between 5.99 dan and a stable 6.00 dan can be big because then all players get one more stone, all games are somewhat different. Thomas Rémi ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On 8 janv. 2012, at 16:25, Thomas Wolf wrote: Reaching 6 Dan may well happen, I only want to say that the difference between 5.99 dan and a stable 6.00 dan can be big because then all players get one more stone, all games are somewhat different. This all depends on the rating system. Depending on how well the rating system is calibrated, reaching 6d might make things easier or harder. I expect that for computers, reaching 6d will make things easier, because the level of play of computers is very uneven. Some of the fast progress of Crazy Stone when it passed the 5d bar might come from that phenomenon. Rémi ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
Hmm, Remi and Thomas, good fodder to meditate about. Remi wrote: Thomas Wolf wrote: Reaching 6 Dan may well happen, I only want to say that the difference between 5.99 dan and a stable 6.00 dan can be big because then all players get one more stone, all games are somewhat different. This all depends on the rating system. Depending on how well the rating system is calibrated, reaching 6d might make things easier or harder. So far, your opinion are compatible. Remi went on: I expect that for computers, reaching 6d will make things easier, because the level of play of computers is very uneven. Some of the fast progress of Crazy Stone when it passed the 5d bar might come from that phenomenon. That sounds very interesting but also very complicated. Can you try to explain it in more detail? Has there been this phenomenon with other bots at other barriers? Did the Zen team experience it at some k-dan/(k+1)-dan barrier(s)? What a wonderfully complicated world, Ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
On 8 January 2012 14:27, Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr wrote: On 7 janv. 2012, at 21:07, Jouni Valkonen wrote: 6d for MC-gobot seems a bit optimistic, I would bet €5 that it won't happen in 2012. 6d's are ridiculously strong. I calculated that in January, out of 56 games against 5d's CS won 48%. This is indeed impressive, although there is long way to beat 6d's in even game. I take the bet. Zen19D is 5.99 dan today. No way it won't improve to 6d. I would take the bet for Crazy Stone too. oh, Zen is drifting more than I expect, when old games are dropping. It did not look like getting into 6d when she played actively in November. I guess that I already lost the bet. Is it ok, that I pay the bet as buying CS for iPad2? It is only €5.99, so after reducing Apple's share and taxes, it may be a little less than 5 euros for you. –Jouni ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] Lines of code
Has there been any studies into the number of lines of code in the top chess/go programs over time? Another measure would be bytes of executable or bytes of executable+data. Obviously the latter grows in chess with endgame databases, so maybe that's less interesting. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Lines of code
Go programs can have databases too. They can be a compact representation of information which might otherwise be a large amount of case-specific code. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Unix/Linux Systems Administration Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice. From: Michael Williams michaelwilliam...@gmail.com To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2012 3:13 PM Subject: [Computer-go] Lines of code Has there been any studies into the number of lines of code in the top chess/go programs over time? Another measure would be bytes of executable or bytes of executable+data. Obviously the latter grows in chess with endgame databases, so maybe that's less interesting. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function
(2012/01/09 9:56), Jouni Valkonen wrote: There is indeed a problem with Dynamic komi with Zen. Zen often loses the handicap games if black tries to minimize the move count. Often if it is possible to bring game to small yose in around move 180 or so and if not too much behind, then Zen most likely will lose. I have played few games where Zen noted only when filling last dames that it is losing the game by few or half points and then resign. Although, one game was that I lost by ½ points, because I accidentally defended unnecessarily instead of taking the last dame. One game was that i was about ten points behind around move 180, but then Zen played a slack small yose, and lost by 2½ points. Also good and very easy strategy against zen in handicap games is to take all the sides and give center territory to the Zen. Zen almost always will take the center territory as too small and gives sides as too big. I think people often confuse the evaluation problem and the dynamic komi problem. A more urgent problem is the underestimation of the edge and corner territory. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function
underestimation? s. On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Yamato yamato...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: (2012/01/09 9:56), Jouni Valkonen wrote: There is indeed a problem with Dynamic komi with Zen. Zen often loses the handicap games if black tries to minimize the move count. Often if it is possible to bring game to small yose in around move 180 or so and if not too much behind, then Zen most likely will lose. I have played few games where Zen noted only when filling last dames that it is losing the game by few or half points and then resign. Although, one game was that I lost by ½ points, because I accidentally defended unnecessarily instead of taking the last dame. One game was that i was about ten points behind around move 180, but then Zen played a slack small yose, and lost by 2½ points. Also good and very easy strategy against zen in handicap games is to take all the sides and give center territory to the Zen. Zen almost always will take the center territory as too small and gives sides as too big. I think people often confuse the evaluation problem and the dynamic komi problem. A more urgent problem is the underestimation of the edge and corner territory. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Lines of code
For Many Faces, all engine code is c, and line counts are from wc (includes blank lines and comments for .c and .h files) today: The uct/playout code is 10K lines. The old go engine is 55K lines. Some of the is code is not used by the strongest level, but the weaker levels still use the old alpha-beta searcher. There are about 2500 playout pattern gamma constants, about 62K joseki patterns, and about 2K old program patterns (with 51K move-value pairs). version 10, in 1997, had 42K lines of code in 2001 the old engine had 53K lines of code version 11, in 2002, had 52K lines of code The original version 12, 10/2008, had 5.2K lines in the uct/playout code. This was the first release that used MCTS. I don't have any on-line source older than version 10, and the older backups are on floppies, so I can't read them any more J I don't think I even have backups any more for any code before 1990. Everything from version 10 forward is in Git, so I could in theory see how many lines are unchanged since 1997. David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 12:14 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] Lines of code Has there been any studies into the number of lines of code in the top chess/go programs over time? Another measure would be bytes of executable or bytes of executable+data. Obviously the latter grows in chess with endgame databases, so maybe that's less interesting. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function
Yes. That's why MCTS prefers the center. Sometimes the playouts let an invasion work, so corner territory is not evaluated as being as secure as it should be. It seems easier for MCTS to kill groups in the center in the playouts. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 8:03 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function underestimation? s. On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Yamato yamato...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: (2012/01/09 9:56), Jouni Valkonen wrote: There is indeed a problem with Dynamic komi with Zen. Zen often loses the handicap games if black tries to minimize the move count. Often if it is possible to bring game to small yose in around move 180 or so and if not too much behind, then Zen most likely will lose. I have played few games where Zen noted only when filling last dames that it is losing the game by few or half points and then resign. Although, one game was that I lost by ½ points, because I accidentally defended unnecessarily instead of taking the last dame. One game was that i was about ten points behind around move 180, but then Zen played a slack small yose, and lost by 2½ points. Also good and very easy strategy against zen in handicap games is to take all the sides and give center territory to the Zen. Zen almost always will take the center territory as too small and gives sides as too big. I think people often confuse the evaluation problem and the dynamic komi problem. A more urgent problem is the underestimation of the edge and corner territory. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Lines of code
awesome. :) s. On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 8:12 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: For Many Faces, all engine code is c, and line counts are from wc (includes blank lines and comments for .c and .h files) today: The uct/playout code is 10K lines. The old go engine is 55K lines. Some of the is code is not used by the strongest level, but the weaker levels still use the old alpha-beta searcher. There are about 2500 playout pattern gamma constants, about 62K joseki patterns, and about 2K old program patterns (with 51K move-value pairs). version 10, in 1997, had 42K lines of code in 2001 the old engine had 53K lines of code version 11, in 2002, had 52K lines of code The original version 12, 10/2008, had 5.2K lines in the uct/playout code. This was the first release that used MCTS. I don’t have any on-line source older than version 10, and the older backups are on floppies, so I can’t read them any more J I don’t think I even have backups any more for any code before 1990. Everything from version 10 forward is in Git, so I could in theory see how many lines are unchanged since 1997. David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 12:14 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] Lines of code Has there been any studies into the number of lines of code in the top chess/go programs over time? Another measure would be bytes of executable or bytes of executable+data. Obviously the latter grows in chess with endgame databases, so maybe that's less interesting. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function
No long ago I was considering a scheme something like bias uct formula by solid points to cure the problem of underestimation of the edge and corner territory, but still have no time to try. I believe it is one of the solutions to the notorious problem that MCTS programs usually like center territory more. Take the empty position as an example: a center move A and a corner move B might both have 47% winning rate, but B should have higher score in UCT formula computation. The reason is simple: from the ownership information of the playouts, there is no solid points for A (everywhere both sides own almost 50%) while B has some solid points at the corner (such as Black owns that corner points in 60% of the playouts). Aja -原始郵件- From: Yamato Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 8:30 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function (2012/01/09 9:56), Jouni Valkonen wrote: There is indeed a problem with Dynamic komi with Zen. Zen often loses the handicap games if black tries to minimize the move count. Often if it is possible to bring game to small yose in around move 180 or so and if not too much behind, then Zen most likely will lose. I have played few games where Zen noted only when filling last dames that it is losing the game by few or half points and then resign. Although, one game was that I lost by ½ points, because I accidentally defended unnecessarily instead of taking the last dame. One game was that i was about ten points behind around move 180, but then Zen played a slack small yose, and lost by 2½ points. Also good and very easy strategy against zen in handicap games is to take all the sides and give center territory to the Zen. Zen almost always will take the center territory as too small and gives sides as too big. I think people often confuse the evaluation problem and the dynamic komi problem. A more urgent problem is the underestimation of the edge and corner territory. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function
even with the joseki libraries, MCTS prefers center? that seems to favor the idea of center actually being good. s. On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 8:13 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: Yes. That's why MCTS prefers the center. Sometimes the playouts let an invasion work, so corner territory is not evaluated as being as secure as it should be. It seems easier for MCTS to kill groups in the center in the playouts. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 8:03 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function underestimation? s. On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Yamato yamato...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: (2012/01/09 9:56), Jouni Valkonen wrote: There is indeed a problem with Dynamic komi with Zen. Zen often loses the handicap games if black tries to minimize the move count. Often if it is possible to bring game to small yose in around move 180 or so and if not too much behind, then Zen most likely will lose. I have played few games where Zen noted only when filling last dames that it is losing the game by few or half points and then resign. Although, one game was that I lost by ½ points, because I accidentally defended unnecessarily instead of taking the last dame. One game was that i was about ten points behind around move 180, but then Zen played a slack small yose, and lost by 2½ points. Also good and very easy strategy against zen in handicap games is to take all the sides and give center territory to the Zen. Zen almost always will take the center territory as too small and gives sides as too big. I think people often confuse the evaluation problem and the dynamic komi problem. A more urgent problem is the underestimation of the edge and corner territory. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function
middle game playouts are far out of the joseki library, and in any case the joseki library moves are not used in the playouts, only the uct tree. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 8:23 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function even with the joseki libraries, MCTS prefers center? that seems to favor the idea of center actually being good. s. On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 8:13 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: Yes. That's why MCTS prefers the center. Sometimes the playouts let an invasion work, so corner territory is not evaluated as being as secure as it should be. It seems easier for MCTS to kill groups in the center in the playouts. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 8:03 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] replacing dynamic komi with a scoring function underestimation? s. On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Yamato yamato...@yahoo.co.jp wrote: (2012/01/09 9:56), Jouni Valkonen wrote: There is indeed a problem with Dynamic komi with Zen. Zen often loses the handicap games if black tries to minimize the move count. Often if it is possible to bring game to small yose in around move 180 or so and if not too much behind, then Zen most likely will lose. I have played few games where Zen noted only when filling last dames that it is losing the game by few or half points and then resign. Although, one game was that I lost by ½ points, because I accidentally defended unnecessarily instead of taking the last dame. One game was that i was about ten points behind around move 180, but then Zen played a slack small yose, and lost by 2½ points. Also good and very easy strategy against zen in handicap games is to take all the sides and give center territory to the Zen. Zen almost always will take the center territory as too small and gives sides as too big. I think people often confuse the evaluation problem and the dynamic komi problem. A more urgent problem is the underestimation of the edge and corner territory. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
