Re: [Computer-go] minirock2
Sorry, my guess is wrong. I tested 3 games vs Minirock2. Aya won 2 games and lost one. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=ayamc4 But Minirock2 runs on 2 cores 2.8GHz, and Aya is on 6 cores 3.3GHz. I think Minirock2 is 1d or 2d, and if it uses faster machine, 2d or 3d. Zen19 also played 2 games vs Minirock2, and Zen won 2 games. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=zen19 Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] minirock2 No, not Steenvreter. Erik On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp wrote: I thought it is Steenvreter. Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] minirock2 Interesting speculation. Independent of the programmer question I woukd like to see Minirock2 playing rated games. Ingo. Original-Nachricht Datum: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:33:32 +0100 Von: Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr An: computer-go@dvandva.org Betreff: [Computer-go] minirock2 Anybody knows what is minirock2? Was it programmed by rock2? That would be big news :-) Fabien, are you reading? Rémi ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] minirock2
I tried 3 games with Crazy Stone: http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=bonobot Each time reducing CPU. First game was full power, second game was 4 cores, third game was 2 cores and very fast play. 3rd game was close. Minirock2 looks rather strong. Info now says author is minirock. Maybe we could ask questions to minirock. Rémi On 28 janv. 2012, at 22:30, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote: Sorry, my guess is wrong. I tested 3 games vs Minirock2. Aya won 2 games and lost one. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=ayamc4 But Minirock2 runs on 2 cores 2.8GHz, and Aya is on 6 cores 3.3GHz. I think Minirock2 is 1d or 2d, and if it uses faster machine, 2d or 3d. Zen19 also played 2 games vs Minirock2, and Zen won 2 games. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=zen19 Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] minirock2 No, not Steenvreter. Erik On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp wrote: I thought it is Steenvreter. Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] minirock2 Interesting speculation. Independent of the programmer question I woukd like to see Minirock2 playing rated games. Ingo. Original-Nachricht Datum: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:33:32 +0100 Von: Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr An: computer-go@dvandva.org Betreff: [Computer-go] minirock2 Anybody knows what is minirock2? Was it programmed by rock2? That would be big news :-) Fabien, are you reading? Rémi ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
Here is the 1998 Many Faces of Go against the released version 12, 40 minute game, two cores, 29 stones. White did not make a living group. David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go mfgo98-mfgo.sgf Description: Binary data ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
I tried 29 stones once and it crushed me J David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
You should let me try. :) Aja From: David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:45 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones I tried 29 stones once and it crushed me J David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
ok, its set up to only play ajahuang. give it a try. From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Aja Huang Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:47 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones You should let me try. :) Aja From: David Fotland mailto:fotl...@smart-games.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:45 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones I tried 29 stones once and it crushed me J David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go _ ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
Awesome attempt! 285 at R8 and you would have crushed it in the first try. Stefan On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: You should let me try. :) Aja *From:* David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:45 PM *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones I tried 29 stones once and it crushed me J David *From:* computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Williams *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:43 PM *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones** ** Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
Yes, thanks. Actually in the last try, I lost only 30 points and was having a chance as well. ManyFaces is not unbeatable with 29 stones. I also tried 2 games against Minirock2 with 6 stones, 1 win 1 loss. The first game was a test. Minirock2 is obviously a MCTS program and it handles ladders very well. In the second, I killed a big group. Minirock2 also has the popular semeai problem. I think its playing strength is maybe around 1d. My guess would be Minirock2 is the Japanese program blast. Aja From: Stefan Kaitschick Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:41 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Awesome attempt! 285 at R8 and you would have crushed it in the first try. Stefan On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: You should let me try. :) Aja From: David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:45 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones I tried 29 stones once and it crushed me J David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
ok, mfgo98 is back open to everyone. David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Aja Huang Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:03 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Yes, thanks. Actually in the last try, I lost only 30 points and was having a chance as well. ManyFaces is not unbeatable with 29 stones. I also tried 2 games against Minirock2 with 6 stones, 1 win 1 loss. The first game was a test. Minirock2 is obviously a MCTS program and it handles ladders very well. In the second, I killed a big group. Minirock2 also has the popular semeai problem. I think its playing strength is maybe around 1d. My guess would be Minirock2 is the Japanese program blast. Aja From: Stefan Kaitschick mailto:stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:41 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Awesome attempt! 285 at R8 and you would have crushed it in the first try. Stefan On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: You should let me try. :) Aja From: David Fotland mailto:fotl...@smart-games.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:45 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones I tried 29 stones once and it crushed me J David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go _ ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go _ ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] Pachi on cygwin
I just build the latest Pachi on the patest Cygwin. I got some warnings but no errors. It does not crash when I run it. It does show it's thinking process when I give it a genmove command. But when it is done thinking, it does not print the result and prompt for the next command as expected. Instead it just hangs. Any ideas? $ ./pachi.exe Random seed: 1327809195 play b e5 IN: play b e5 got move 1,5,5 Fresh board with random seed 1327809195 Warning: Cannot promote move node! Several play commands in row? Move: 1 Komi: 0.0 Handicap: 0 Captures B: 0 W: 0 A B C D E F G H JA B C D E F G H J +---++---+ 9 | . . . . . . . . . | 9 | : : : : : : : : : | 8 | . . . . . . . . . | 8 | : : : : : : : : : | 7 | . . . . . . . . . | 7 | : : : : : : : : : | 6 | . . . . . . . . . | 6 | : : : : : : : : : | 5 | . . . . X). . . . | 5 | : : : : : : : : : | 4 | . . . . . . . . . | 4 | : : : : : : : : : | 3 | . . . . . . . . . | 3 | : : : : : : : : : | 2 | . . . . . . . . . | 2 | : : : : : : : : : | 1 | . . . . . . . . . | 1 | : : : : : : : : : | +---++---+ = genmove w IN: genmove w Fresh board with random seed 1327809195 [1] best 0.395954 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.396) F6(0.397) F7(0.423) F8(0.410) [2] best 0.405934 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.406) F6(0.388) G7(0.394) F7(0.423) [3] best 0.412510 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.413) F6(0.385) G7(0.387) G8(0.393) [4] best 0.417998 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.418) F6(0.385) G7(0.387) G8(0.392) [5] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.431) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [6] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.428) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [7] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.425) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [8] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.430) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Pachi on cygwin
maybe you need a fflush(stdout)? David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 9:11 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: [Computer-go] Pachi on cygwin I just build the latest Pachi on the patest Cygwin. I got some warnings but no errors. It does not crash when I run it. It does show it's thinking process when I give it a genmove command. But when it is done thinking, it does not print the result and prompt for the next command as expected. Instead it just hangs. Any ideas? $ ./pachi.exe Random seed: 1327809195 play b e5 IN: play b e5 got move 1,5,5 Fresh board with random seed 1327809195 Warning: Cannot promote move node! Several play commands in row? Move: 1 Komi: 0.0 Handicap: 0 Captures B: 0 W: 0 A B C D E F G H JA B C D E F G H J +---++---+ 9 | . . . . . . . . . | 9 | : : : : : : : : : | 8 | . . . . . . . . . | 8 | : : : : : : : : : | 7 | . . . . . . . . . | 7 | : : : : : : : : : | 6 | . . . . . . . . . | 6 | : : : : : : : : : | 5 | . . . . X). . . . | 5 | : : : : : : : : : | 4 | . . . . . . . . . | 4 | : : : : : : : : : | 3 | . . . . . . . . . | 3 | : : : : : : : : : | 2 | . . . . . . . . . | 2 | : : : : : : : : : | 1 | . . . . . . . . . | 1 | : : : : : : : : : | +---++---+ = genmove w IN: genmove w Fresh board with random seed 1327809195 [1] best 0.395954 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.396) F6(0.397) F7(0.423) F8(0.410) [2] best 0.405934 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.406) F6(0.388) G7(0.394) F7(0.423) [3] best 0.412510 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.413) F6(0.385) G7(0.387) G8(0.393) [4] best 0.417998 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.418) F6(0.385) G7(0.387) G8(0.392) [5] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.431) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [6] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.428) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [7] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.425) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [8] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.430) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Pachi on cygwin
I don't think that's it because it doesn't seem to respond to additional commands, such as a second genmove. On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:14 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote: maybe you need a fflush(stdout)? ** ** David ** ** *From:* computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Williams *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2012 9:11 PM *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org *Subject:* [Computer-go] Pachi on cygwin ** ** I just build the latest Pachi on the patest Cygwin. I got some warnings but no errors. It does not crash when I run it. It does show it's thinking process when I give it a genmove command. But when it is done thinking, it does not print the result and prompt for the next command as expected. Instead it just hangs. Any ideas? $ ./pachi.exe Random seed: 1327809195 play b e5 IN: play b e5 got move 1,5,5 Fresh board with random seed 1327809195 Warning: Cannot promote move node! Several play commands in row? Move: 1 Komi: 0.0 Handicap: 0 Captures B: 0 W: 0 A B C D E F G H JA B C D E F G H J +---++---+ 9 | . . . . . . . . . | 9 | : : : : : : : : : | 8 | . . . . . . . . . | 8 | : : : : : : : : : | 7 | . . . . . . . . . | 7 | : : : : : : : : : | 6 | . . . . . . . . . | 6 | : : : : : : : : : | 5 | . . . . X). . . . | 5 | : : : : : : : : : | 4 | . . . . . . . . . | 4 | : : : : : : : : : | 3 | . . . . . . . . . | 3 | : : : : : : : : : | 2 | . . . . . . . . . | 2 | : : : : : : : : : | 1 | . . . . . . . . . | 1 | : : : : : : : : : | +---++---+ = genmove w IN: genmove w Fresh board with random seed 1327809195 [1] best 0.395954 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.396) F6(0.397) F7(0.423) F8(0.410) [2] best 0.405934 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.406) F6(0.388) G7(0.394) F7(0.423) [3] best 0.412510 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.413) F6(0.385) G7(0.387) G8(0.393) [4] best 0.417998 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.418) F6(0.385) G7(0.387) G8(0.392) [5] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.431) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [6] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.428) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [7] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.425) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) [8] best 0.420043 komi 0.0 | seq E6 F6 F7 D6 | can E6(0.420) F7(0.430) F6(0.385) G7(0.386) ** ** ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] minirock2
I tried 3 games with Erica: http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=Erica19B In the 1st, 2nd games, Erica was running with 5k playouts/move (1 thread) and Erica lost both games. In the 3rd game, Erica was running with 2 threads and 10s/move (around 15-20k playouts/move). Erica won. My feeling is that Minirock2's playing style is similar to that of Erica. One interesting moment is Black's 13th at C3 in the 2nd game. Minirock'2 C3 is clearly a bad move but it was Erica's ponder hit. Aja -原始郵件- From: Rémi Coulom Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 3:23 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] minirock2 I tried 3 games with Crazy Stone: http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=bonobot Each time reducing CPU. First game was full power, second game was 4 cores, third game was 2 cores and very fast play. 3rd game was close. Minirock2 looks rather strong. Info now says author is minirock. Maybe we could ask questions to minirock. Rémi On 28 janv. 2012, at 22:30, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote: Sorry, my guess is wrong. I tested 3 games vs Minirock2. Aya won 2 games and lost one. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=ayamc4 But Minirock2 runs on 2 cores 2.8GHz, and Aya is on 6 cores 3.3GHz. I think Minirock2 is 1d or 2d, and if it uses faster machine, 2d or 3d. Zen19 also played 2 games vs Minirock2, and Zen won 2 games. http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=zen19 Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Erik van der Werf erikvanderw...@gmail.com To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] minirock2 No, not Steenvreter. Erik On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita y...@bd.mbn.or.jp wrote: I thought it is Steenvreter. Hiroshi Yamashita - Original Message - From: Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] minirock2 Interesting speculation. Independent of the programmer question I woukd like to see Minirock2 playing rated games. Ingo. Original-Nachricht Datum: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 09:33:32 +0100 Von: Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr An: computer-go@dvandva.org Betreff: [Computer-go] minirock2 Anybody knows what is minirock2? Was it programmed by rock2? That would be big news :-) Fabien, are you reading? Rémi ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
No, the first game was finished without playing a move. I kept playing pass and at one pass ManyFaces played pass well. Then the game was scored immediately as Black having the whole board, B+327.5. http://files.gokgs.com/games/2012/1/29/ajahuang-mfgo1998.sgf Aja From: Stefan Kaitschick Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 9:35 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Oops, that was the fourth try - the one with the 29.5 point loss. On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Stefan Kaitschick stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de wrote: Awesome attempt! 285 at R8 and you would have crushed it in the first try. Stefan On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: You should let me try. :) Aja From: David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:45 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones I tried 29 stones once and it crushed me J David From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones
Hello all, many thanks to David Fotland for setting up mfgo1998 on KGS. I will analyse a little bit if the differences between this version and the one from the Martin-Mueller-game are a serious problem. (If not, my bet will stand for this version.) I just replayed Aja's fourth trial game. Fantastic, how fast he adapts to the bot. I analysed his fourth game with the help of modern MFoG, with interesting results. You can find three files on the following website: sgf of game4: http://www.althofer.de/handicap-29/h29-ajahuang-mfgo1998-4.sgf territory estimate by modern MFoG: http://www.althofer.de/handicap-29/h29-territory-ajahuang4.jpg mc-percents by modern MFoG: http://www.althofer.de/handicap-29/h29-percents-ajahuang4.jpg Interesting: Btween move 20 and 40 modern MFoG gives minus 10 percent for the wining chances of White! Thanks again to David for his service. Cheers, Ingo. Original-Nachricht Datum: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 04:41:38 +0100 Von: Stefan Kaitschick stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de An: computer-go@dvandva.org Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Awesome attempt! 285 at R8 and you would have crushed it in the first try. Stefan On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:47 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: You should let me try. :) Aja *From:* David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:45 PM *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones I tried 29 stones once and it crushed me J David *From:* computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Williams *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:43 PM *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones** ** Nice. This should be interesting... On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: mfgo1998 is up on kgs if anyone wants to try it. To get a big handicap, set up a 9 stone game and pass until you get up to 29 stones in the same pattern as Martin's game. Regards, David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of David Fotland Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones The game with Martin was played on 8/5/1998 at the US Go Congress. My closest source is dated 7/3/1998. I have this built into a gtp front end now, and it's playing different moves from Martin's game, so the engine is not identical. Do you still want to continue with this bet? David -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:22 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Beating old ManyFaces at 29 handicap stones Which old Manyface, I have a DOS version from 1990 :) In 1997 ManyFaces 10.0 came to the market (and is sol still nowadays). David Fotland wrote that in the game against Martin Mueller he likely used a source from July 1998. He will try to reanimate that. ingo. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
