Re: [Computer-go] Supporting Japanese rules
I would start with implementing the Ikeda Area rules III ( http://gobase.org/studying/rules/ikeda/?sec=e_rules and more precise http://gobase.org/studying/rules/ikeda/?sec=e401 and following ) they approach to the complete Japanese rules (where Robert Jasiek is an expert) but i do think they are easier to implement in a program. (just area score but check for the first pass, the rules make the first pass valuable, so you do need to implement a routine that passes can be valued and investigated. the only change i would make to them is where Ikeda has: Rule 7 Rule of scoring: A player's score is the number of that player's played stones plus the number of grid points in that player's territory. If the first pass was made by White, however, then 1/2 point is subtracted from Black's score and added to White's score. The winner is determined by comparing the players' scores. i would use If the first pass was made by White, however, then 1point is subtracted from Black's score(or 1 point is added to white's score. The winner is determined by comparing the players' scores. I am not sure how far these rules differ from the japanese rules, (Robert did once compare the japanese rules with the Ikeda Territory rules, but this is no territory rule, hope he will compare them sometime) On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Robert Jasiek jas...@snafu.de wrote: Here are conceptual rules ideas: http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/rules.html#ruletextsJapaneseStyleRules http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/rules.html#RuleTextCommentaries In particular, the Simplified Japanese Rules can be a pragmatic start: http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/sj.html Obviously, you would need to replace superko, exclude territory from sekis and add Japanese style game end phases. What you get your program should be able to handle: detecting independently alive by the possibility of creating the player's two-eye-formation. Needless to say, pathological, rare cases can lead to differences from real Japanese rules. Otherwise, Simplified Japanese Rules with the mentioned modifications should be good enough for a program's internal move prediction, if only it can construct representative playout sequences from typical territories to two-eye-formations. -- robert jasiek ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Supporting Japanese rules
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Martin Mueller mmuel...@ualberta.ca wrote: ... Do people consider this a solved problem? I do. BTW I think it would be nice to have some kgs tournaments with Japanese rules; good for testing, and it might even make 9x9 a bit more interesting... Erik ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] Japanese rules in KGS tournaments
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 07:37:35PM +0100, Erik van der Werf wrote: On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Martin Mueller mmuel...@ualberta.ca wrote: ... Do people consider this a solved problem? I do. BTW I think it would be nice to have some kgs tournaments with Japanese rules; good for testing, and it might even make 9x9 a bit more interesting... I second that idea. Having tournaments with Chinese rules by default is friendly to Computer Go beginners, but having a Japanese rules tournament once in a while would be nice to help weed out any bugs (and assess how often some corner cases actually happen :-), especially considering that some important non-KGS tournaments have Japanese rules. -- Petr Pasky Baudis For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H. L. Mencken ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Japanese rules in KGS tournaments
Yes, it would be good to put the Japanese scoring to the test and nothing does this better than a tournament. Don On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz wrote: On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 07:37:35PM +0100, Erik van der Werf wrote: On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Martin Mueller mmuel...@ualberta.ca wrote: ... Do people consider this a solved problem? I do. BTW I think it would be nice to have some kgs tournaments with Japanese rules; good for testing, and it might even make 9x9 a bit more interesting... I second that idea. Having tournaments with Chinese rules by default is friendly to Computer Go beginners, but having a Japanese rules tournament once in a while would be nice to help weed out any bugs (and assess how often some corner cases actually happen :-), especially considering that some important non-KGS tournaments have Japanese rules. -- Petr Pasky Baudis For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H. L. Mencken ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Japanese rules in KGS tournaments
If my version of the gtp protocol is the latest, there is no command for scoring (it is in the missing feature section). Should we try to extend the specification? Detlef Am Samstag, den 23.02.2013, 13:50 -0500 schrieb Don Dailey: Yes, it would be good to put the Japanese scoring to the test and nothing does this better than a tournament. Don On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz wrote: On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 07:37:35PM +0100, Erik van der Werf wrote: On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Martin Mueller mmuel...@ualberta.ca wrote: ... Do people consider this a solved problem? I do. BTW I think it would be nice to have some kgs tournaments with Japanese rules; good for testing, and it might even make 9x9 a bit more interesting... I second that idea. Having tournaments with Chinese rules by default is friendly to Computer Go beginners, but having a Japanese rules tournament once in a while would be nice to help weed out any bugs (and assess how often some corner cases actually happen :-), especially considering that some important non-KGS tournaments have Japanese rules. -- Petr Pasky Baudis For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H. L. Mencken ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Japanese rules in KGS tournaments
A command something like rule_set japanese might be good. Other rule sets such as Ing and AGA are also popular, see http://senseis.xmp.net/?RulesOfGo Aja 2013/2/23 ds d...@physik.de If my version of the gtp protocol is the latest, there is no command for scoring (it is in the missing feature section). Should we try to extend the specification? Detlef Am Samstag, den 23.02.2013, 13:50 -0500 schrieb Don Dailey: Yes, it would be good to put the Japanese scoring to the test and nothing does this better than a tournament. Don On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz wrote: On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 07:37:35PM +0100, Erik van der Werf wrote: On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 5:18 AM, Martin Mueller mmuel...@ualberta.ca wrote: ... Do people consider this a solved problem? I do. BTW I think it would be nice to have some kgs tournaments with Japanese rules; good for testing, and it might even make 9x9 a bit more interesting... I second that idea. Having tournaments with Chinese rules by default is friendly to Computer Go beginners, but having a Japanese rules tournament once in a while would be nice to help weed out any bugs (and assess how often some corner cases actually happen :-), especially considering that some important non-KGS tournaments have Japanese rules. -- Petr Pasky Baudis For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H. L. Mencken ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Supporting Japanese rules
For the Japanese rules, you can find what I did in Erica at http://www.mail-archive.com/computer-go@dvandva.org/msg00195.html For seki, simply ignore all empty points *connected* with seki groups. Aja 2013/2/22 Martin Mueller mmuel...@ualberta.ca I want to support Japanese rules in Fuego for UEC cup (and for human opponents who prefer these rules). I looked at test cases and previous discussions on the list. My summary so far is on http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/fuego/wiki/JapaneseRules I did not find any discussions younger than 2009. I also did not find a complete solution. Do people consider this a solved problem? Martin ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
