subject:"\[Computer\-go\] CrazyStone in the 5\-dan footsteps of Zen"


On 03/01/2012 07:47, Jouni Valkonen wrote:



On 3 January 2012 00:53, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com
mailto:ajahu...@gmail.com wrote:

Blitz games such as 15s/move favor MCTS programs. I expect both Zen
and CrazyStone will drop to 4d in longer games.


It would be nice to have bot Zen and CS in slower (ca. 60min)
tournaments. I remember that Zen has participated at least to one KGS
tournament, and did good, but more data would be nice. from slower
thinking time. Byouyomi playing is always little bit difficult for humans.


The tournaments I organise on KGS do not include any with an hour each. 
 This is because most of them are held within a single 8-hour session, 
and are Swiss, so an hour each would mean only for rounds, which I think 
is not enough.  A few of them are held over most of a week, and have all 
had at least two hours per player per game.


These tournaments all use something close to absolute time (Canadian 
overtime of 10 moves in 30 seconds) so as to use the time effectively.


I am open to persuasion to change any of this.

Zen has been taking a short holiday from these tournaments, and 
CrazyStone has not played in one since April 2010

  http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/58/index.html
when it came second, behind Zen.

The next one will be on January 15th, with 19x19 boards and time limits 
of ~30 minutes each.  I am hoping that Zen and CrazyStone will both take 
part.


Nick



Also, especially, I would love to see strong gobot playing in EGC 2012
main tournament. Of course there is lots of organizing thing to do, but
those two evil gobots are good enough and still not yet too good to
participate into serious human tournaments with long thinking times.

I personally prefer to play 80×20sec at KGS. It quite nice playing pace.
There is 28 minutes for thinking + 20 sec for each moves. It is
significantly better for humans than 20 min + 5×30 sec, although total
game is length is roughly the same.

–Jouni




___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go



--
Nick Wedd
n...@maproom.co.uk
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Jouni Valkonen

On 3 January 2012 13:25, Petr Baudis pa...@ucw.cz wrote:

 On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 08:42:31AM +0100, Robert Jasiek wrote:
  but almost as bad to set computer-friendly conditions all the time.
 Do you have any precise idea in mind that would allow reasonable number
 of (strong) people to play a program, avoid clicking matches and be
 friendlier to the humans?

 yes there is very clear idea, that we want strong gobots into human
tournaments. Especially into slow KGS tournaments and I think that this
would be sufficient and objective enough source for data.

These conditions are more friendly for humans. Although they are not
perfect such as in EGC main tournament.

  –Jouni
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 The tournaments I organise on KGS do not include any with an hour each.

it would be nice for machines to be allowed to enter the regular
tournaments as well. :)

or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
the machine tournaments. ;)

s.
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


On 03/01/2012 11:25, Petr Baudis wrote:

 snip 


Have the courage to
compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!


That's easy to say.  Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?
I have tried few times with Pachi, never successfully yet. I think some
other authors tried as well in the past.


Many years ago, when running a Go tournament for humans, I allowed a 
program to enter.  It only played in rounds in which the number of human 
entrants was odd, so as to avoid byes (I thought, surely playing a game 
against a program is better than sitting around reading a newspaper for 
a round?).  But I was reprimanded by the British Go Association, and 
told never to do this again.


Nick
--
Nick Wedd
n...@maproom.co.uk
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

i think that kgs players might be more open-minded about this.

s.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote:
 On 03/01/2012 11:25, Petr Baudis wrote:

  snip 


 Have the courage to
 compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!


 That's easy to say.  Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?
 I have tried few times with Pachi, never successfully yet. I think some
 other authors tried as well in the past.


 Many years ago, when running a Go tournament for humans, I allowed a program
 to enter.  It only played in rounds in which the number of human entrants
 was odd, so as to avoid byes (I thought, surely playing a game against a
 program is better than sitting around reading a newspaper for a round?).
  But I was reprimanded by the British Go Association, and told never to do
 this again.

 Nick
 --
 Nick Wedd
 n...@maproom.co.uk

 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


On 03.01.2012 12:25, Petr Baudis wrote:

What is blunder rate?


The blunder rate is the average number of blunders per game. A blunder 
is a mistake that is a) big and b) the player could have avoided rather 
easily by thinking a bit more and given his go insight.



When you watch a professional review of
a high dan amateur game, there certainly does seem to be a lot of
blunders.


I am not speaking of ordinary mistakes (like choosing a wrong direction) 
but of blunders (like overlooking an atari in three moves). While the 
difference between ordinary mistake and blunder is hard to define, I can 
always identify either in my games because there is a quantum jump 
between the different levels of mistakes.



Isn't it a matter of perspective? :-)


No. It is a matter of proper usage of the phrases ordinary mistake and 
blunder.



It is not as bad as Nihon Kiin certificates for programs

Wow, did that ever happen?!


I though it was like that when the programs were about 9k but given 3k 
certificates.



Do you have any precise idea in mind that would allow reasonable number
of (strong) people to play a program, avoid clicking matches and be
friendlier to the humans?


Play for the humans real world games. Ask players of appropriate 
strength. Assign match schedules.



Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?


I agree that it requires work.

--
robert jasiek
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


On 03/01/2012 11:42, steve uurtamo wrote:

The tournaments I organise on KGS do not include any with an hour each.


it would be nice for machines to be allowed to enter the regular
tournaments as well. :)


Sometimes, they are.  See
  http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=600
  http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=601
Zen came second in both of these; pachi also did well.

The decision here will probably be with KGS admin 'sweety'.

Most regular tournaments on KGS are open only to paying customers, i.e. 
KGS+ subscribers.  So an issue is likely to be - do these paying 
customers want bots playing in their tournaments?



or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
the machine tournaments. ;)


I can consider that.  How would I select the human players?  I can't let 
people join without restriction, that might produce many more human 
players than bots, and undermine a major source of KGS revenue.  Though 
I guess the tough schedule, close to eight hours of solid play, would be 
a deterrent.


Nick
--
Nick Wedd
n...@maproom.co.uk
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 I can consider that.  How would I select the human players?  I can't let
 people join without restriction, that might produce many more human players
 than bots, and undermine a major source of KGS revenue.  Though I guess the
 tough schedule, close to eight hours of solid play, would be a deterrent.

i dunno, the first 4 (8?) people to mail you from the list with kgs
accounts? i'd be surprised if there were a flood of people willing to
play that very tough schedule. or if there were, more than once.

s.
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Hello, my two cent:
 
  or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
  the machine tournaments. ;)
 
 I can consider that.  How would I select the human players? 

People may apply. Only players with several KGS games (for instance = 10 
within the last 30 days before the application) against strong bots
are acceptable. If there are still more applicants than slots
those with the highest KGS ratings should be accepted.

Ingo.

-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!   
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

i'd remove or alter the second requirement, it's actually quite hard
to get that many games against strong bots, and doesn't add much
(anything?) to the play for people to have done so.

what you would want to see is strong players in a tournament, right? i
agree about the rank ordering.

s.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 4:14 AM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote:
 Hello, my two cent:

  or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
  the machine tournaments. ;)

 I can consider that.  How would I select the human players?

 People may apply. Only players with several KGS games (for instance = 10
 within the last 30 days before the application) against strong bots
 are acceptable. If there are still more applicants than slots
 those with the highest KGS ratings should be accepted.

 Ingo.

 --
 NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!
 Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Don Dailey

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:42 AM, Robert Jasiek jas...@snafu.de wrote:

On 02.01.2012 23:47, David Fotland wrote:
15 seconds is

pretty reasonable for a quick game, and 9 periods allows a couple of long
thinks.

LOL. Long thinks means allowing for 30 minutes of difficult LD solving!

reasonable for a quick game is too imprecise. It is only a special type
of quick game: online byoyomi only style. E.g., real world sudden death
quick games have a very different nature.

Reasonable? As long as a player does not know when he going to play
(because he has to participate in the game match accepting click war), he
suffers from the psychological disadvantage of suddenly being involved in a
game.

Humans make blunders in byoyomi only games. I do not know how many but it
is quite some number. I also do not know how many blunders computers make.
One thing I do know: In a real world game with long thinking times, the 5d+
human's blunder rate per game is below 1 move on average. IOW, you cannot
compare online byoyomi games with human long thinking time games at all. It
is not as bad as Nihon Kiin certificates for programs but almost as bad to
set computer-friendly conditions all the time. Have the courage to compete
under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!

I know byoyomi is traditional, but I believe the Fischer clock is far more
sane for human play. I believe you could play the games with less time
using Fischer with higher quality too. With Fischer the time you don't
use is never taken from you and there is not the constant clock pressure.
Even if the main time was 5 minutes with 5 seconds fischer increment I
think it would be far more conducive to strong play than 15 seconds
byoyomi.

Do they use fischer clock at all in any go competitions?

--
robert jasiek

__**_
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread terry mcintyre

The American Go Association allows computer entrants. 

I found the following in the AGA tournament guide:


C. Computer entry. Computers may enter tournaments under certain conditions: 1. 
Only the inventor of the hardware/program or his/her designated agent may enter 
the computer (hereafter, either inventor or agent are called the operator.); 

2. The computer must correctly handle any move legal for it or its opponent to 
make andmust not make any illegal moves; 

3. Both computer and operator must be AGA members;
4. The operator must play computer moves on a regular board and punch the 
clock for the computer;
5. The operator may enter or adjust playing parameters before a round begins, 
but not during a round;
6. The computer's clock must be left ticking if the operator must fix hardware 
or software problems.
7. The operator may offer to resign on the computer's behalf.
D. Classes of computer participation. There are three classes of computer 
tournament participation. Tournament publicity should indicate what class a 
tournament is ahead of time; if not announced, the tournament is automatically 
class B. The TD should also announce the class of tournament before first round 
pairings.
1. Class A: no computer entrants allowed. 

2. Class B: computers allowed, but humans have the right to refuse computer 
opponents.
Humans wishing to do so must notify the TD before first round pairings.
3. Class C: computers allowed; humans may not refuse computer opponents.

 
Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com


Unix/Linux Systems Administration
Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.


___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


steve uurtamo wrote:
 i'd remove or alter the second requirement, it's actually quite hard
 to get that many games against strong bots, and doesn't add much
 (anything?) to the play for people to have done so.

The main reason to have is to avoid that someone enters who has
no (or almost no) experience with bot play and later starts complaining
(or steps back silently) when the tournament does not run well.

10 games against strong bots within 30 days would be one possible condition;
it might also be okay to ask instead for 5 games within the last 90 days.

Ingo.

PS: By strong bot I mean not only Zen and CrazyStone, but also Pachi,
Aya, ManyFaces, GinseiIgo, Steenvreter, Gomorra ...


 what you would want to see is strong players in a tournament, right? i
 agree about the rank ordering.
 
 s.
 
 On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 4:14 AM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de
 wrote:
  Hello, my two cent:
 
   or, if that's too hard to organize, to allow people to enter some of
   the machine tournaments. ;)
 
  I can consider that.  How would I select the human players?
 
  People may apply. Only players with several KGS games (for instance =
 10
  within the last 30 days before the application) against strong bots
  are acceptable. If there are still more applicants than slots
  those with the highest KGS ratings should be accepted.
 
  Ingo.
 
  --
  NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!
  Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
  ___
  Computer-go mailing list
  Computer-go@dvandva.org
  http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

-- 
Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Hello Peter,

  Have the courage to
  compete under human conditions! Enter human tournaments!
 
 That's easy to say.  Do you know a tournament where a program can enter?
 I have tried few times with Pachi, never successfully yet. I think some
 other authors tried as well in the past.

Years ago (in 2001, 2002, 2003; before the Monte Carlo revolution) we
had human go tournaments in Jena where some human+bot-constructions
(3-Hirn and others) participated. Three details made it a success:
* Participants declared before round 1 if they were willing to play against
such beasts.
* We had prizes (little books) for those who actually played against them.
* For the local and regional press (and TV) computer participation was
a highlight. They mainly reported on these experiments, but also about
the tournament itself.

Ingo.


 
   Petr Pasky Baudis
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

-- 
Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Hi David,

David Fotland on CLOP-optimization:
 I tried it, but got no benefit so far.  It claimed to find better settings
 for most parameters, but when I used them the program wasn’t any
 stronger.
 
Interestant. Had it similar strength or did it even become weaker?
How often did the move proposals by your older ManyFaces and the
CLOP-MF differ?

Ingo.
-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!   
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

[Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Jacques Basaldúa

Maybe a tournament is not the best way to see quality computer/human games.
There are better ways to measure the computer/computer performance and the
human/human performance is not interesting here. We could simply schedule
computer/human games on KGS (e.g., 3 times a year, one in each time zone
afternoon) with around 4 KGS 5d+ humans and the 2 bots Zen and CrazyStone.
Obvious human candidates are: Aja Huang, Robert Jasiek, Stefan Kaitschick,
BotHater (don't know his name). Humans could use this list to subscribe and
the pairings could be listed in advance. I don't think there are masses of
KGS 5d+ players. It would be fun to watch.

 

Jacques.

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


On 03.01.2012 13:09, Ingo Althöfer wrote:
 The open tournament has 10 rounds

A human championship is not suitable for computers near top ranks. Other 
EGC tournaments are an option more easily. In particular, CG tournaments 
or side events specifically for computers and humans.


--
robert jasiek
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Don Dailey

An observation:   When computers get strong enough to be a threat to the
stronger players in these tournaments (which is probably already the case),
 tournaments will end up all being Class A.   It will become a default.
Even being called Class A (no computers) will make it the defacto
standard.If you didn't know the difference would you rather tell your
friends you were in a class A tournament or a class C tournament?
They built some bias into the rules for this just by their naming
convention.   Of course it is their right to make the rules,   this is just
an observation.

Years ago in computer chess there were very similar rules about when a
computer could participate and it was basically up to the discretion of the
organizer - but the default policy was NO,  it had to be stated if they
were allowed. Almost immediately that closed the doors on computers
playing at almost every event.

I think there are 2 or 3 improvements here to what we had in chess, such as
the possibility of Class C tournaments.I also like that computers
should not be given additional consideration such as time-outs for hardware
issues - that only serves to antagonize people who don't care about
computers and have to suffer the scheduling consequences.I also agree
that computers should not win prize money.

To be perfectly frank about this my own experience with bringing my own
chess program to tournaments has been rather negative and I tend to side
with the human players who come expecting to play other humans even if they
don't (or forget) to say so.So it makes sense (to me) that there should
only be class A and class C tournaments.

Class C tournaments should be organized specifically for computer
participation with a kind of equal status between computers and humans.
 Humans can be enticed to come to these with the right incentives.  One
incentive is that computers can win prize money but that a portion (or all)
of it is distributed to whoever played the computer.

Don



The TD should also announce the class of tournament before first round
pairings.

 1. Class A: no computer entrants allowed.

2. Class B: computers allowed, but humans have the right to refuse computer
 opponents.

Humans wishing to do so must notify the TD before first round pairings.

3. Class C: computers allowed; humans may not refuse computer opponents.



Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com


 Unix/Linux Systems Administration

Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.



 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


On 03.01.2012 13:58, Ingo Althöfer wrote:

10 games against strong bots within 30 days would be one possible condition;


How? The clicking fastest to accept a game match is still the problem.

--
robert jasiek
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Erik van der Werf

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Robert Jasiek jas...@snafu.de wrote:
 On 03.01.2012 13:58, Ingo Althöfer wrote:

 10 games against strong bots within 30 days would be one possible
 condition;


 How? The clicking fastest to accept a game match is still the problem.


So the problem is that too many humans want to play strong bots?

Perhaps it would help if kgs provided an option in the kgsgtp config
to limit the rank difference where challenges are accepted. Humans can
be picky about their opponents; maybe bots should also be allowed into
that game :-)

Erik
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


On 03/01/2012 13:55, Erik van der Werf wrote:

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Robert Jasiekjas...@snafu.de  wrote:

On 03.01.2012 13:58, Ingo Althöfer wrote:


10 games against strong bots within 30 days would be one possible
condition;



How? The clicking fastest to accept a game match is still the problem.



So the problem is that too many humans want to play strong bots?


Yes.  Getting a game on KGS against a strong bot is difficult.  It 
requires fast reactions to accept the game offer before any other user.


We are considering ways of restricting the number of human entrants to a 
bot tournament on KGS.  If such a tournament is ever held, it is likely 
that I will be running it.  Rather than using rules such as 10 games 
against strong bots within 30 days, I will prefer:
to use my discretion, giving preference to players such as 
BotHater, who I know to understand what is involved

to seek applications only via this list
to deter applications, by pointing out that eight solid hours of 
play against opponents who do not make yose mistakes will not be fun.


My objective will be to avoid people who think that playing in a bot 
tournament will be cool, and then quit when they find that it isn't. 
Ordinary human KGS tournaments have many quitters - see e.g.

  https://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=sid=625


Perhaps it would help if kgs provided an option in the kgsgtp config
to limit the rank difference where challenges are accepted. Humans can
be picky about their opponents; maybe bots should also be allowed into
that game :-)


There are many options which could usefully be added to the KGS 
bot-server interface.  You are certainly not the first person to have 
suggested this one.  I think it unlikely that any of them will be 
implemented, at least within the next year.

Nick
--
Nick Wedd
n...@maproom.co.uk
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


On 03.01.2012 15:37, Petr Baudis wrote:
 My hope is that the games might finally become beautiful to watch

They are.

--
robert jasiek
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Rémi Coulom

As a human player, I would be opposed to playing against a program in a 
tournament. So I don't wish to participate in human tournaments with Crazy 
Stone.

Also, having to operate the program manually would be a huge pain. Playing 
casual games automatically on KGS is much more pleasant for me, and not less 
interesting to watch than tournament games. Regardless of time control, the 
level of play is immensely higher than mine, anyway.

Rémi

On 3 janv. 2012, at 13:09, Ingo Althöfer wrote:

 Hello,
 
 I am in charge of organizing the computer go parts of the European
 Go Congress 2012. 
 Before asking the main congress organizers if they were willing to allow
 a computer player in the main tournament I would like to make sure that
 - when allowed - really a programmer with a strong bot shows up.
 So, programmers of strong bots: Feel free to contact me soon (best
 by email - I will treat them confidential) if you are willing to come
 to Bonn. Your machine may be remote, but you or a member of your team
 should be in Bonn to operate the program.
 Some of the strong programs that come to my mind as possible participants
 are (in rather random order) Zen, CrazyStone, Steenvreter (Bonn is not very 
 far from the NL), Erica, ManyFaces, Pachi, MoGo, Aya, Gomorra.
 
 Of course, such a participation would mean that each human participant
 has to declare at the start of the tournament whether he/she is willing to
 be paired against the bot - and these declarations have to be obeyed.
 Also, computer participants should be excluded from prize money.
 
 Jouni wrote:
 ... I would love to see strong gobot playing in EGC 2012 main
 tournament. Of course there is lots of organizing thing to do, but those
 two evil gobots are good enough and still not yet too good to participate
 into serious human tournaments with long thinking times.
 
 
 EGC 2012 takes place in Bonn (Germany, Rhine area), starting on July 21,
 and ending on August 04, 2012. The open tournament has 10 rounds, see at:
 http://www.egc2012.eu/congress/tournaments/open-european-championship
 
 In case of a/one computer participant in the main tournament I am willing
 to help by providing a present for each human player who plays the computer.
 
 Ingo.
 -- 
 Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
 belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Don Dailey

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr wrote:

 As a human player, I would be opposed to playing against a program in a
 tournament. So I don't wish to participate in human tournaments with Crazy
 Stone.

 When I was bringing my chess program to human tournaments,   I was in a
sort of conflict of interest because I sympathized with the human players.
   I wanted to get some experience with human play because when developing
I always played other programs or self-play but I felt bad when one of the
players felt that they were manipulated into playing the computer. Many
did NOT sign the no-computer list simply because they forgot or were not
asked to or knew the odds were low that they would play.

My worst experience was in one of the US opens where my program was allowed
to play only in the main tournament,  but most of the side events including
the speed chess tournaments I was not allowed to play. I payed a lot of
money to travel that year and to get a lot of games with a lot of feedback
from humans and felt cheated.

I'm afraid that human and computers don't mix.   Or at least they don't mix
unless someone is willing to play them.




 Also, having to operate the program manually would be a huge pain. Playing
 casual games automatically on KGS is much more pleasant for me, and not
 less interesting to watch than tournament games. Regardless of time
 control, the level of play is immensely higher than mine, anyway.

 Rémi

 On 3 janv. 2012, at 13:09, Ingo Althöfer wrote:

  Hello,
 
  I am in charge of organizing the computer go parts of the European
  Go Congress 2012.
  Before asking the main congress organizers if they were willing to allow
  a computer player in the main tournament I would like to make sure that
  - when allowed - really a programmer with a strong bot shows up.
  So, programmers of strong bots: Feel free to contact me soon (best
  by email - I will treat them confidential) if you are willing to come
  to Bonn. Your machine may be remote, but you or a member of your team
  should be in Bonn to operate the program.
  Some of the strong programs that come to my mind as possible participants
  are (in rather random order) Zen, CrazyStone, Steenvreter (Bonn is not
 very
  far from the NL), Erica, ManyFaces, Pachi, MoGo, Aya, Gomorra.
 
  Of course, such a participation would mean that each human participant
  has to declare at the start of the tournament whether he/she is willing
 to
  be paired against the bot - and these declarations have to be obeyed.
  Also, computer participants should be excluded from prize money.
 
  Jouni wrote:
  ... I would love to see strong gobot playing in EGC 2012 main
  tournament. Of course there is lots of organizing thing to do, but those
  two evil gobots are good enough and still not yet too good to
 participate
  into serious human tournaments with long thinking times.
 
 
  EGC 2012 takes place in Bonn (Germany, Rhine area), starting on July 21,
  and ending on August 04, 2012. The open tournament has 10 rounds, see at:
  http://www.egc2012.eu/congress/tournaments/open-european-championship
 
  In case of a/one computer participant in the main tournament I am willing
  to help by providing a present for each human player who plays the
 computer.
 
  Ingo.
  --
  Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
  belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
  ___
  Computer-go mailing list
  Computer-go@dvandva.org
  http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen


On 03/01/2012 15:19, terry mcintyre wrote:

Does KGS support the ability to challenge a specific opponent?


Yes.

 Could

computer programs respond to such challenges, modulo specific criteria
such as player rank, games per period, notoriety, etc?


Bots playing on KGS cannot, I believe, accept existing challenges.

Nick


Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com

Unix/Linux Systems Administration



___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go



--
Nick Wedd
n...@maproom.co.uk
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Petr Baudis

On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 04:02:18PM +, Nick Wedd wrote:
 On 03/01/2012 15:19, terry mcintyre wrote:
 Does KGS support the ability to challenge a specific opponent?
 
 Yes.
 
  Could
 computer programs respond to such challenges, modulo specific criteria
 such as player rank, games per period, notoriety, etc?
 
 Bots playing on KGS cannot, I believe, accept existing challenges.

They can, using mode=wait and the 'opponent' variable.

With little work, it would be possible to make e.g. a web-based
challenging system where you could choose challengers in a more
controlled way than KGS offers. kgsGtp would terminate after each game
and be restarted with a newly generated config file with the appropriate
opponent settings. It's just a matter of spending time on it. I didn't
feel the incentive since Pachi is not so strong yet. ;-)

-- 
Petr Pasky Baudis
The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will
last at least until we've finished building it.
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread ds

The can take place in the auto pairing and choose some of the criteria
as far as I know.


Am Dienstag, den 03.01.2012, 16:02 + schrieb Nick Wedd: 
 On 03/01/2012 15:19, terry mcintyre wrote:
  Does KGS support the ability to challenge a specific opponent?
 
 Yes.
 
   Could
  computer programs respond to such challenges, modulo specific criteria
  such as player rank, games per period, notoriety, etc?
 
 Bots playing on KGS cannot, I believe, accept existing challenges.
 
 Nick
 
  Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com
 
  Unix/Linux Systems Administration
 
 
 
  ___
  Computer-go mailing list
  Computer-go@dvandva.org
  http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
 
 


___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread Jouni Valkonen

That would be great idea. it would be interesting to watch. Although with
slow thinking times, I feel sad for the gobots, because they do not have a
chance against any of those. Anyway, this kind of matches would be great to
watch, because there might be surprises, still.

  –Jouni

On 3 January 2012 15:11, Jacques Basaldúa jacq...@dybot.com wrote:

  Maybe a tournament is not the best way to see quality computer/human
 games. There are better ways to measure the computer/computer performance
 and the human/human performance is not interesting here. We could simply
 schedule computer/human games on KGS (e.g., 3 times a year, one in each
 time zone afternoon) with around 4 KGS 5d+ humans and the 2 bots Zen and
 CrazyStone. Obvious human candidates are: Aja Huang, Robert Jasiek, Stefan
 Kaitschick, BotHater (don't know his name). Humans could use this list to
 subscribe and the pairings could be listed in advance. I don't think there
 are masses of KGS 5d+ players. It would be fun to watch.

 ** **

 Jacques.

 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-03 Thread David Fotland

It was weaker, but I have to do more experiments.  I didn’t compare move 
proposals.  I just ran 2000-game tournaments vs gnugo before and after.  Win 
rage went from 84.9% to 78.9%.  I need to try it again with fewer variables and 
more games.  I still think it is a great tool.

David

 -Original Message-
 From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
 boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
 Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:09 AM
 To: computer-go@dvandva.org
 Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
 Hi David,
 
 David Fotland on CLOP-optimization:
  I tried it, but got no benefit so far.  It claimed to find better settings
  for most parameters, but when I used them the program wasn�t any
  stronger.
 
 Interestant. Had it similar strength or did it even become weaker?
 How often did the move proposals by your older ManyFaces and the
 CLOP-MF differ?
 
 Ingo.
 --
 NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur�ck-Garantie!
 Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

[Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Hello everybody,

let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
its position as leading bot on KGS.
Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.

See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone

and the list of games at
http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
and
http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1

Ingo 
(wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS 
before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
-- 
Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
Zen was running on 26 cores.

Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

-David

 -Original Message-
 From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
 boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
 Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
 To: computer-go@dvandva.org
 Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
 Hello everybody,
 
 let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
 It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
 its position as leading bot on KGS.
 Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
 has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
 and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
 
 See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
 http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
 
 and the list of games at
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
 and
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1
 
 Ingo
 (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
 before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
 --
 Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
 belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-02 Thread Michael Williams

Did you use it on Many Faces?  How much benefit did you see there?

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.comwrote:

 Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5
 dan
 Zen was running on 26 cores.

 Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
 excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

 -David

  -Original Message-
  From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
  boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
  Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
  To: computer-go@dvandva.org
  Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
  Hello everybody,
 
  let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
  It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
  its position as leading bot on KGS.
  Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
  has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
  and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
 
  See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
  http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
 
  and the list of games at
  http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
  and
  http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1
 
  Ingo
  (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
  before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
  --
  Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
  belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
  ___
  Computer-go mailing list
  Computer-go@dvandva.org
  http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-02 Thread terry mcintyre

This is the info on KGS user crazystone:
running on a 24-core PC. 


 I've watched a few games. It impresses me, and more to the point, impresses 
the high-dan players. 


Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com


Unix/Linux Systems Administration
Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.



 From: David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com
To: computer-go@dvandva.org 
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
Zen was running on 26 cores.

Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

-David

 -Original Message-
 From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
 boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
 Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
 To: computer-go@dvandva.org
 Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
 Hello everybody,
 
 let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
 It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
 its position as leading bot on KGS.
 Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
 has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
 and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
 
 See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
 http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
 
 and the list of games at
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
 and
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1
 
 Ingo
 (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
 before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
 --
 Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
 belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go


___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-02 Thread Robert Jasiek


On 02.01.2012 20:42, terry mcintyre wrote:
 impresses the high-dan players.

We know that PCs are fast at fast calculations. Let them play slow games 
so that human 5d get their chance to think. I would play a couple of 
games if a) thinking times are reasonable and b) I do not have to lose 
the fight of clicking the fastest and having the fastest internet 
connection to KGS for the program's game requests.


--
robert jasiek
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Some side information:
Robert is a strong human go player, see
http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Player_Card.php?key=10213203
and also the author of books on go theory. He also has experience
playing against the current CrazyStone on KGS, his KGS account is rsun.

I would like to see him playing against CrazyStone and/or Zen
at slow time controls. For the programmers, he as an opponent
might also give valuable feedback.

Ingo.


 Original-Nachricht 
 Datum: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:00:22 +0100
 Von: Robert Jasiek jas...@snafu.de
 An: computer-go@dvandva.org
 Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 On 02.01.2012 20:42, terry mcintyre wrote:
   impresses the high-dan players.
 
 We know that PCs are fast at fast calculations. Let them play slow games 
 so that human 5d get their chance to think. I would play a couple of 
 games if a) thinking times are reasonable and b) I do not have to lose 
 the fight of clicking the fastest and having the fastest internet 
 connection to KGS for the program's game requests.
 
 -- 
 robert jasiek
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

-- 
Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

Don

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:42 PM, terry mcintyre terrymcint...@yahoo.comwrote:

 This is the info on KGS user crazystone:
 running on a 24-core PC.

  I've watched a few games. It impresses me, and more to the point,
 impresses the high-dan players.

 Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com

 Unix/Linux Systems Administration
 Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.

   --
 *From:* David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com
 *To:* computer-go@dvandva.org
 *Sent:* Monday, January 2, 2012 2:12 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5
 dan
 Zen was running on 26 cores.

 Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
 excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

 -David

  -Original Message-
  From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
  boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
  Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
  To: computer-go@dvandva.org
  Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
  Hello everybody,
 
  let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
  It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
  its position as leading bot on KGS.
  Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
  has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
  and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
 
  See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
  http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
 
  and the list of games at
  http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
  and
  http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1
 
  Ingo
  (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
  before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
  --
  Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
  belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
  ___
  Computer-go mailing list
  Computer-go@dvandva.org
  http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go



 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Hello Don,

 What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
9 byoyomi phases.

Ingo.


-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!   
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance!

Don


On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.dewrote:

 Hello Don,

  What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

 In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
 9 byoyomi phases.

 Ingo.


 --
 NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!
 Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Sorry, I made a mistake and
have to correct myself:

 ... He [Robert Jasiek] also has experience
 playing against the current CrazyStone on KGS, his KGS account is rsun.

rsun is NOT Robert Jasiek.
Robert's account on KGS is sum.

Thanks to Thomas Wolf for pointing this out.

Ingo.



-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!   
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

A 24 core SMP PC should be a little more efficient/stronger than the 26 core
cluster that Zen uses.

 

David

 

From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of terry mcintyre
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:43 AM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 

This is the info on KGS user crazystone:

running on a 24-core PC. 

 

 I've watched a few games. It impresses me, and more to the point, impresses
the high-dan players. 

Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com

Unix/Linux Systems Administration
Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice.

  _  

From: David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com
To: computer-go@dvandva.org 
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
Zen was running on 26 cores.

Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

-David

 -Original Message-
 From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
 boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
 Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
 To: computer-go@dvandva.org
 Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
 Hello everybody,
 
 let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
 It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
 its position as leading bot on KGS.
 Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
 has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
 and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
 
 See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
 http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
 
 and the list of games at
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
 and
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1
 
 Ingo
 (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
 before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
 --
 Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
 belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go



___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-02 Thread Rémi Coulom

On 2 janv. 2012, at 20:12, David Fotland wrote:

 Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
 Zen was running on 26 cores.

Thanks for the nice comments. I am running on 24 cores (Dell PowerEdge R905 
Rack Server, 4 x Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 8439 SE, 2.8GHz). But it is 
only one machine. So my 24 cores are probably much more efficient than the 26 
cores of Zen.

 
 Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
 excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had 
forgotten to tune for a few years. I tuned it with CLOP, but I would have 
probably got the same result if I had tuned it manually (about +100 Elo in self 
play, both on 9x9 and 19x19). CLOP simply makes tuning a lot more convenient. I 
really enjoy using it very much. I am glad if people like it too.

I also fixed a silly bug that was worth 30 Elo in self-play.

Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental 
version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than one 
stone difference on KGS. But I am sure both Zen and Crazy Stone will reach 6d 
in 2012.

Rémi

 
 -David
 
 -Original Message-
 From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
 boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
 Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
 To: computer-go@dvandva.org
 Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen
 
 Hello everybody,
 
 let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
 It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
 its position as leading bot on KGS.
 Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
 has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
 and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.
 
 See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
 http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone
 
 and the list of games at
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
 and
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1
 
 Ingo
 (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
 before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
 --
 Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
 belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
 
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

I tried it, but got no benefit so far.  It claimed to find better settings
for most parameters, but when I used them the program wasnt any stronger.

From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Michael Williams
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:22 AM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Did you use it on Many Faces?  How much benefit did you see there?

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com
wrote:

Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
Zen was running on 26 cores.

Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

-David

 -Original Message-
 From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
 boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
 Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
 To: computer-go@dvandva.org
 Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 Hello everybody,

 let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
 It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
 its position as leading bot on KGS.
 Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
 has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
 and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.

 See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
 http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone

 and the list of games at
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone
http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
year=2011month=12
 and
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystone
http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1
year=2012month=1

 Ingo
 (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
 before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
 --
 Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
 belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-02 Thread Nick Wedd


On 02/01/2012 21:05, Don Dailey wrote:

That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance!


Maintaining a 5-dan performance certainly is impressive - but the fast 
time limit makes it somewhat less so.  Programs handle fast time limits 
better than humans do.


This sounds as if I am decrying CrazyStone's performance.  That is 
certainly not my intention.  I'll try again:


A 5.4-dan performance is pretty awesome.  A 5.4-dan performance with a 
strong positive slope is even more awesome.  A 5.4-dan performance with 
a positive second derivative is unheard of!


Nick



Don


On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de
mailto:3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote:

Hello Don,

  What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
9 byoyomi phases.

Ingo.


--
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org mailto:Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go




___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go



--
Nick Wedd
n...@maproom.co.uk
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-02 Thread steve uurtamo

that's great to hear!

there's a categorical and strong empirical difference between players
on kgs that are over 5d from those who are below 5d. it's shockingly
clear in slowish games. i'd love to see a machine at 6d, and expect
that there's nothing stopping it from happening soon.

keep up the great work -- the bigger the pool of strong machine
players, the better for everyone.

s.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Rémi Coulom remi.cou...@free.fr wrote:
 On 2 janv. 2012, at 20:12, David Fotland wrote:

 Very impressive.  Does anyone know the relative hardware?  I think the 5 dan
 Zen was running on 26 cores.

 Thanks for the nice comments. I am running on 24 cores (Dell PowerEdge R905 
 Rack Server, 4 x Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 8439 SE, 2.8GHz). But it 
 is only one machine. So my 24 cores are probably much more efficient than the 
 26 cores of Zen.


 Remi, can you tell us how much of the benefit was due to CLOP?  It's an
 excellent tool BTW.  Thank you for sharing it.

 The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I had 
 forgotten to tune for a few years. I tuned it with CLOP, but I would have 
 probably got the same result if I had tuned it manually (about +100 Elo in 
 self play, both on 9x9 and 19x19). CLOP simply makes tuning a lot more 
 convenient. I really enjoy using it very much. I am glad if people like it 
 too.

 I also fixed a silly bug that was worth 30 Elo in self-play.

 Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental 
 version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than 
 one stone difference on KGS. But I am sure both Zen and Crazy Stone will 
 reach 6d in 2012.

 Rémi


 -David

 -Original Message-
 From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go-
 boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Ingo Althöfer
 Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:04 AM
 To: computer-go@dvandva.org
 Subject: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 Hello everybody,

 let us start the new year also in the mailing list.
 It seems that Zen is finding a strong contender for
 its position as leading bot on KGS.
 Starting on December 29, Crazy Stone (by Remi Coulom)
 has started a long playing session in KGS computer room,
 and has now established a stable 5-dan rating.

 See the rating diagram for CrazyStone at
 http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=crazystone

 and the list of games at
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2011month=12
 and
 http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=crazystoneyear=2012month=1

 Ingo
 (wishes to see bots with 6-dan ranks on KGS
 before the European Go Congress in July 2012)
 --
 Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
 belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote:

 On 02/01/2012 21:05, Don Dailey wrote:

 That's pretty awesome to maintain a 5 dan performance!


 Maintaining a 5-dan performance certainly is impressive - but the fast
 time limit makes it somewhat less so.  Programs handle fast time limits
 better than humans do.


I'm glad that is finally understood.   Go back just a few years ago  on
this list where I got blasted by almost everyone  for saying the same
thing.

The idea being put forth was that computers need more time to think and
that humans are intuitive (which apparently means they don't need to time
to think) and extra time isn't of much use to them because they know pretty
much at a glance what to play.Sound pretty stupid doesn't it?I felt
like I was beating my head against the wall trying to explain how it works.


Don



 This sounds as if I am decrying CrazyStone's performance.  That is
 certainly not my intention.  I'll try again:

 A 5.4-dan performance is pretty awesome.  A 5.4-dan performance with a
 strong positive slope is even more awesome.  A 5.4-dan performance with a
 positive second derivative is unheard of!

 Nick


 Don


 On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de
 mailto:3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de wrote:

Hello Don,

  What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
9 byoyomi phases.

Ingo.


--
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!
Jetzt informieren: 
 http://www.gmx.net/de/go/**freephonehttp://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
__**_
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org 
 mailto:Computer-go@dvandva.**orgComputer-go@dvandva.org
 

 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go





 __**_
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go



 --
 Nick Wedd
 n...@maproom.co.uk

 __**_
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.dewrote:

 Hello Don,

  What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

 In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
 9 byoyomi phases.


I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player
exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long
for the byoyomi phases?

I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all,  but if
you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that
this is going to make the computer really look good.

For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard.   You
could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more  by setting the time to
1 second per move.

Don





 Ingo.


 --
 NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!
 Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
 ___
 Computer-go mailing list
 Computer-go@dvandva.org
 http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

For the last year or so, all the bots have been using this time control
(nine 15-second periods), so the bot ratings can be compared.  All the
periods are the same 15 seconds.  So any time over 15 seconds uses one of
the periods (over 30 seconds would use two periods, etc).  15 seconds is
pretty reasonable for a quick game, and 9 periods allows a couple of long
thinks.

 

David

 

From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org
[mailto:computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of Don Dailey
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 2:28 PM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

 

 

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de
wrote:

Hello Don,


 What time control was used for these games or did it vary?

In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
9 byoyomi phases.

 

I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player
exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long
for the byoyomi phases?  

 

I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all,  but if
you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that
this is going to make the computer really look good.  

 

For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard.   You
could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more  by setting the time to
1 second per move. 

 

Don 

 

 

 


Ingo.


--
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

 

___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

2012-01-02 Thread Aja Huang

I have played several games with the 5 dan CrazyStone (24 cores) and felt 
that it is pretty close to the 5 dan Zen (26 cores) in playing strength. In 
fact, CrazyStone’s playing style is much more balanced and human-like than 
Zen. Specifically, CrazyStone is better than Zen at winning without killing 
or fighting. It has a very good sense of territory and features very good 
pattern shapes, though it is still weaker than Zen in handling semeais.

Blitz games such as 15s/move favor MCTS programs. I expect both Zen and 
CrazyStone will drop to 4d in longer games. The reason is that MCTS programs 
are still not able to (in my opinion) read deepily like human players in 
situations such as big semeai or life-and-death. Also, when against strong 
Go players in fast games MCTS programs rely heavily on accurate territory 
counting. In longer games, this advantage will decrease most if not at all.

Aja

From: Don Dailey
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 3:28 PM
To: computer-go@dvandva.org
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen




On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de 
wrote:

  Hello Don,


   What time control was used for these games or did it vary?


  In the last few days it was 15 seconds per move, with
  9 byoyomi phases.

I don't think that specifies the time control does it?So if a player 
exceeds 15 seconds he starts to use one of his byoyomi periods?How long 
for the byoyomi phases?

I don't think 15 seconds per move average is bad for humans at all,  but if 
you have to make each move in 15 seconds it's horrible and I can see that 
this is going to make the computer really look good.

For making strength claims there should be some sort of standard.   You 
could take almost any program and get 5 dan or more  by setting the time to 
1 second per move.

Don




  Ingo.


  --
  NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!
  Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone

  ___
  Computer-go mailing list
  Computer-go@dvandva.org
  http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go





___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go 
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen

Steve uurtamo uurt...@gmail.com wrote:
 keep up the great work -- the bigger the pool of strong machine
 players, the better for everyone.

Right. Having a pool of several bots with similar strength in
the top typically results in faster progress.

And one day (maybe in two years or so) we need someone like Fabien Letouzy
in chess: making the source of his Fruit public in 2005 was the starting
point for an explosion in performance. (By the way: congratulations to
Don Dailey for his strong new chess program Komodo 4! He made it public
a few days before Christmas. It jumped immediately to rank 2 in one of the
most serious rating lists, see at
http://www.inwoba.de/
But one day after Christmas another new program (Critter 1.4) entered the
scene and surpassed Komodo by 2 Elo points. So, Don's baby is now on a
very strong third rank in chess.)

***
One point I forgot in the original message:
Congratulations to Remi for the fine performance of his bot!

Remi Coulom wrote:
  The big improvement I got recently came from tuning one parameter that I
  had forgotten to tune for a few years. 

That is one of the errors one can make. Two others are:
(i) forgetting to introduce new parameters;
(ii) forgetting to kick out some old parameters, when new ones come in.


  Improving the KGS rank at 5d is very difficult. The current experimental
  version of Crazy Stone wins 78% against Crazy Stone 2011. That's less than
  one stone difference on KGS. 

One question out of interest: At which time controls did you run these
selfplay games?

Ingo.




-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie!   
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@dvandva.org
http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] CrazyStone in the 5-dan footsteps of Zen