Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
Hi Hiroshi, I made a graph of KGS highest rank Bot. http://www.yss-aya.com/kgs_botrank.png We have a rank increase of 1.5d / year, since 2007. If this pace is continued, 2012 6.5d 2013 8 d 2014 9.5d 2015 11 d human champion? We can see X-day in four years. Perhaps I am blind, but I do not see X-day, even not before 2020. date rank soft 2006/11 6k GnuGo (KCC and Handtalk are maybe 4k.) Mentioning Handtalk is ok, but KCC was an illegal Handtalk clone. So you should NOT mention it. http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings The ranks you mention are from KGS. Is there something like a KGS World Championship, let it be with or without prize money? Winning such an online championship might be easier for a bot then winning over the board. Just by blind cents. Ingo PS, seriously: I like that we have in our community both optimists and pessimists. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
Ingo wrote: »The ranks you mention are from KGS. Is there something like a KGS World Championship, let it be with or without prize money? Winning such an online championship might be easier for a bot then winning over the board.» Is it allowed for gobots to participate to online Kgs tournaments? It would very nice if they could. I think that there should be 2-4 places open for gobots, because computer go is such an important aspect of go. Chessbots could participate into some offline tournaments until they were too strong to play with humans. This is the best way to observe the development of gobots. —Jouni ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
kgs recently had a tournament where bots were allowed to play -- it was on nonstandard-sized boards, and zen did fantastically well, taking second place in the 21x21 tournament, in both american/european and asian/european divisions. there are also a stable of people throwing themselves at zen in the computer go room on kgs, solidifying its rank at 5d (as it slowly creeps toward 6d). (to be clear, this is the version playing at roughly (15s?/move), which in my experience is at-speed or slower than most non-tournament play happens in practice without a clock, so totally fair for humans to play at). so even if it can't play in human tournaments, everyone knows that it is at least as strong as the strongest 5d's on KGS. i think that it'd be great if bots could play in the 19x19 tournaments on kgs. that is a far cry from playing as an actual player over the board on a regular basis at regular tournaments. does anyone have an example of *any* game that existed before computers where computers have been accepted/allowed to play as a regular practice (instead of as a highly debated issue?). s. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: Ingo wrote: »The ranks you mention are from KGS. Is there something like a KGS World Championship, let it be with or without prize money? Winning such an online championship might be easier for a bot then winning over the board.» Is it allowed for gobots to participate to online Kgs tournaments? It would very nice if they could. I think that there should be 2-4 places open for gobots, because computer go is such an important aspect of go. Chessbots could participate into some offline tournaments until they were too strong to play with humans. This is the best way to observe the development of gobots. —Jouni ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
The American Go Association has allowed bots in tournaments since at least the mid 80's. This is from their 1988 Tournament Rules. Later they gave people the option to declare at the start of the tournament if they refused to be paired with computers. In practice very few people refused. C. Computer entry. Computers may enter tournaments under certain conditions: 1. Only the inventor of the hardware/program or his/her designated agent may enter the computer (hereafter, either inventor or agent are called the operator.); 2. The computer must correctly handle any move legal for it or its opponent to make and must not make any illegal moves; 3. Both computer and operator must be AGA members; 4. The operator must play computer moves on a regular board and punch the clock for the computer; 5. The operator may enter or adjust playing parameters before a round begins, but not during a round; 6. The computer's clock must be left ticking if the operator must fix hardware or software problems. 7. The operator may offer to resign on the computer's behalf. -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 6:21 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot kgs recently had a tournament where bots were allowed to play -- it was on nonstandard-sized boards, and zen did fantastically well, taking second place in the 21x21 tournament, in both american/european and asian/european divisions. there are also a stable of people throwing themselves at zen in the computer go room on kgs, solidifying its rank at 5d (as it slowly creeps toward 6d). (to be clear, this is the version playing at roughly (15s?/move), which in my experience is at-speed or slower than most non-tournament play happens in practice without a clock, so totally fair for humans to play at). so even if it can't play in human tournaments, everyone knows that it is at least as strong as the strongest 5d's on KGS. i think that it'd be great if bots could play in the 19x19 tournaments on kgs. that is a far cry from playing as an actual player over the board on a regular basis at regular tournaments. does anyone have an example of *any* game that existed before computers where computers have been accepted/allowed to play as a regular practice (instead of as a highly debated issue?). s. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: Ingo wrote: The ranks you mention are from KGS. Is there something like a KGS World Championship, let it be with or without prize money? Winning such an online championship might be easier for a bot then winning over the board. Is it allowed for gobots to participate to online Kgs tournaments? It would very nice if they could. I think that there should be 2-4 places open for gobots, because computer go is such an important aspect of go. Chessbots could participate into some offline tournaments until they were too strong to play with humans. This is the best way to observe the development of gobots. -Jouni ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
neat! is this regularly exercised? :) s. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:47 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: More from the 1988 AGA tournament rules... D. Classes of computer participation. There shall be three types of tournament with respect to participation by computer programs. 1. Humans only -- no computer programs may compete. This fact must appear clearly on all pre-tournament announcements. 2. Human right to refuse computer program as opponent. a. The right to refuse to compete against a computer program must be exercised globally, at the time of registration. b. The player may play the program if the alternative is a bye. However, in this case the computer is a competitor, and both will be scored accordingly. 3. Open - no right to refuse any opponent. a. Computer programs are entered as any other player, and have the same rights as any other plaer. Such rights will be asserted and exercised by the owner of the program. b. Tournament announcements must clearly state the conditions. -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 6:21 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot kgs recently had a tournament where bots were allowed to play -- it was on nonstandard-sized boards, and zen did fantastically well, taking second place in the 21x21 tournament, in both american/european and asian/european divisions. there are also a stable of people throwing themselves at zen in the computer go room on kgs, solidifying its rank at 5d (as it slowly creeps toward 6d). (to be clear, this is the version playing at roughly (15s?/move), which in my experience is at-speed or slower than most non-tournament play happens in practice without a clock, so totally fair for humans to play at). so even if it can't play in human tournaments, everyone knows that it is at least as strong as the strongest 5d's on KGS. i think that it'd be great if bots could play in the 19x19 tournaments on kgs. that is a far cry from playing as an actual player over the board on a regular basis at regular tournaments. does anyone have an example of *any* game that existed before computers where computers have been accepted/allowed to play as a regular practice (instead of as a highly debated issue?). s. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: Ingo wrote: The ranks you mention are from KGS. Is there something like a KGS World Championship, let it be with or without prize money? Winning such an online championship might be easier for a bot then winning over the board. Is it allowed for gobots to participate to online Kgs tournaments? It would very nice if they could. I think that there should be 2-4 places open for gobots, because computer go is such an important aspect of go. Chessbots could participate into some offline tournaments until they were too strong to play with humans. This is the best way to observe the development of gobots. -Jouni ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:12 PM, David Doshay ddos...@mac.com wrote: I took my program and a small cluster to run it to the Cotsen Open in Los Angeles several times. There was even a specific prize for the highest placing program. Enjoy it while it lasts! At some point when computers become contenders the humans will start to resent them being at their tournaments. I cannot blame them, but I can see it happening. However, I think go players have a somewhat different mentality than chess players and more yielding.Perhaps because chess is more of western game and western culture is more violent and confrontational. Cheers, David On 9, Aug 2011, at 9:21 AM, steve uurtamo wrote: neat! is this regularly exercised? :) s. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:47 AM, David Fotland fotl...@smart-games.com wrote: More from the 1988 AGA tournament rules... D. Classes of computer participation. There shall be three types of tournament with respect to participation by computer programs. 1. Humans only -- no computer programs may compete. This fact must appear clearly on all pre-tournament announcements. 2. Human right to refuse computer program as opponent. a. The right to refuse to compete against a computer program must be exercised globally, at the time of registration. b. The player may play the program if the alternative is a bye. However, in this case the computer is a competitor, and both will be scored accordingly. 3. Open - no right to refuse any opponent. a. Computer programs are entered as any other player, and have the same rights as any other plaer. Such rights will be asserted and exercised by the owner of the program. b. Tournament announcements must clearly state the conditions. -Original Message- From: computer-go-boun...@dvandva.org [mailto:computer-go- boun...@dvandva.org] On Behalf Of steve uurtamo Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 6:21 AM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot kgs recently had a tournament where bots were allowed to play -- it was on nonstandard-sized boards, and zen did fantastically well, taking second place in the 21x21 tournament, in both american/european and asian/european divisions. there are also a stable of people throwing themselves at zen in the computer go room on kgs, solidifying its rank at 5d (as it slowly creeps toward 6d). (to be clear, this is the version playing at roughly (15s?/move), which in my experience is at-speed or slower than most non-tournament play happens in practice without a clock, so totally fair for humans to play at). so even if it can't play in human tournaments, everyone knows that it is at least as strong as the strongest 5d's on KGS. i think that it'd be great if bots could play in the 19x19 tournaments on kgs. that is a far cry from playing as an actual player over the board on a regular basis at regular tournaments. does anyone have an example of *any* game that existed before computers where computers have been accepted/allowed to play as a regular practice (instead of as a highly debated issue?). s. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: Ingo wrote: The ranks you mention are from KGS. Is there something like a KGS World Championship, let it be with or without prize money? Winning such an online championship might be easier for a bot then winning over the board. Is it allowed for gobots to participate to online Kgs tournaments? It would very nice if they could. I think that there should be 2-4 places open for gobots, because computer go is such an important aspect of go. Chessbots could participate into some offline tournaments until they were too strong to play with humans. This is the best way to observe the development of gobots. -Jouni ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
In my 3 visits to the Cotsen Open, I had only 2 people decline to play against my program. One traveled from a remote location so he felt that his travel budget was better spent doing something he could not do online from home, and the other was a parent of a child who simply rejected the idea completely. The child wanted to play against the program, and did so later after the official games. At this time games played against bots do not have any effect upon your AGA ranking. The problem from the perspective of the guy who was in charge of the AGA ranking system is that there is no uniform way of giving a program its rating. He is completely against using KGS ratings because on the internet people can hide behind fake names and can game their ratings in various ways. Cheers, David On 9, Aug 2011, at 2:52 PM, Michael Williams wrote: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com wrote: ... Even though I wanted to play my programs in these tournaments, I was sympathetic to the humans point of view. ... Are you accusing them of being androids or something? :P ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
Why not ask for volunteers with known AGA ratings to play games in KGS under tournament conditions with the top bots? You can use the KGS playing interface without trusting the KGS rating system. Terry McIntyre terrymcint...@yahoo.com Unix/Linux Systems Administration Taking time to do it right saves having to do it twice. From: David Doshay ddos...@mac.com To: computer-go@dvandva.org Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot In my 3 visits to the Cotsen Open, I had only 2 people decline to play against my program. One traveled from a remote location so he felt that his travel budget was better spent doing something he could not do online from home, and the other was a parent of a child who simply rejected the idea completely. The child wanted to play against the program, and did so later after the official games. At this time games played against bots do not have any effect upon your AGA ranking. The problem from the perspective of the guy who was in charge of the AGA ranking system is that there is no uniform way of giving a program its rating. He is completely against using KGS ratings because on the internet people can hide behind fake names and can game their ratings in various ways. Cheers, David On 9, Aug 2011, at 2:52 PM, Michael Williams wrote: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Don Dailey dailey@gmail.com wrote: ... Even though I wanted to play my programs in these tournaments, I was sympathetic to the humans point of view. ... Are you accusing them of being androids or something? :P ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
[Computer-go] KGS highest rank Bot
I made a graph of KGS highest rank Bot. http://www.yss-aya.com/kgs_botrank.png We have a rank increase of 1.5d / year, since 2007. If this pace is continued, 2012 6.5d 2013 8 d 2014 9.5d 2015 11 d human champion? We can see X-day in four years. date rank soft 2006/11 6k GnuGo (KCC and Handtalk are maybe 4k.) 2007/10 2k Crazy Stone 2008/02 1k Crazy Stone 2009/03 1d Zen 2009/06 2d Zen 2010/08 3d Zen 2010/12 4d Zen 2011/05 5d Crazy Stone http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings Hiroshi Yamashita ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
