Re: AGAINST ID CARDS

2001-10-09 Thread Bill McGonigle


On Thursday, October 4, 2001, at 06:41 , Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:

 The licenses would still be issued by the states so there would be no 
 new bureaucracy.

 Thoughts?

We have the technology to implement a good electronic ID system, but it 
wouldn't solve any security problems:

---
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
srv/aponline/20011004/aponline204714_000.htm


Pa. Jury Indicts 20 in License Scam

By Mike Crissey
Associated Press Writer
Thursday, Oct. 4, 2001; 8:47 p.m. EDT

PITTSBURGH –– Sixteen men from six states were indicted by a federal 
grand jury Thursday on charges of falsely obtaining Pennsylvania 
commercial driver's licenses.

The men were among 21 of Middle Eastern descent who were arrested last 
week as part of an investigation of a Pittsburgh licensing office where 
an examiner has told authorities he helped people fraudulently obtain 
licenses.

Four men from Washington state were indicted Wednesday.

Eighteen of those indicted had permits to transport hazardous chemicals.

They were arrested amid concerns about possible terrorist attacks 
involving chemical or biological weapons. Federal authorities have since 
said they found no link between the alleged scam and the Sept. 11 
attacks.

The only man arrested last week who has not been indicted is Elmeliani 
Ben Benmoumen, 36, of Pittsburgh. Federal prosecutors say Benmoumen 
was a middleman who helped others obtain the licenses from a 
Pennsylvania Department of Transportation employee for bribes.

Federal authorities are not identifying the employee, who has since been 
fired, but have said he is a cooperating witness in the case.

Benmoumen was scheduled for a hearing Friday at which the government 
must present their probable cause for arresting him.

U.S. Magistrate Kenneth L. Benson also may hold bail hearings or 
arraignments for some of the 20 other men Friday, but Benson's staff 
could not immediately say which of the suspects are likely to appear in 
court.

Some of the men are jailed in their home states or otherwise may be 
unable to travel to Pennsylvania immediately.

State transportation officials have canceled 111 commercial and 
noncommercial licenses traced to the alleged scam.

Federal authorities charged only those men who received commercial 
licenses because they have no jurisdiction over noncommercial licenses.

The men indicted Thursday were arrested in Pennsylvania, Illinois, 
Michigan, Missouri, Tennessee, and Texas.




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Re: AGAINST ID CARDS

2001-10-06 Thread Carl Ellison

Declan,

we already have a national ID card: a passport.

Knowing that some government (or forger) has attached some name to a
picture that looks like the person holding the card gives you some
information about that person, with a non-0 probability.  But, is it
the information you want?

At least some of the 9/11 hijackers had passports.

 - Carl



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|Carl M. Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://world.std.com/~cme |
|PGP: 08FF BA05 599B 49D2  23C6 6FFD 36BA D342 |
+--Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.-+



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Re: AGAINST ID CARDS

2001-10-06 Thread Ben Laurie

Carl Ellison wrote:
 
 Declan,
 
 we already have a national ID card: a passport.

Are you required to have one? Certainly in the UK its only required if
you want to leave the EU (though there are still some people manning the
borders that believe it is required for travel within the EU).

Cheers,

Ben.

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff



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Re: AGAINST ID CARDS

2001-10-05 Thread Arnold G. Reinhold

I too am very nervous about the prospect of national ID cards.  I 
have an idea for a possible compromise, but I have not made up my 
mind on it. I'm interested in hearing other people's opinions.

The idea is a federal standard for secure  drivers' licenses. These 
would be cards containing a chip that stores an electronically signed 
and time stamped data file consisting of the driver's name, date of 
birth, height, address, photo, and scanned signature, as well as 
endorsements such as truck, school bus, motorcycle and hazmat 
operator licenses. All this information is contained in existing 
drivers' licenses, but in a way that is too easy to forge.

The licenses would still be issued by the states so there would be no 
new bureaucracy.  People who don't drive could get proof of age 
cards using the same technology. Many states now issue such cards in 
conventional formats for liquor purchase. There would be pressure to 
expand the use of these licenses to other uses. That has already 
happened for conventional DLs with liquor purchase and airline 
boarding. Some new uses might be acceptable, e.g. using the cards to 
contain  pilot or boating licenses. Limitations on new uses could be 
included in the enabling legislation.

The security model of the card would be privacy oriented, i.e. 
limiting who could access the cards to authorized users and the 
owner. The integrity of the information would come from the 
electronic signatures.  As I understand it, much of the forgery of 
DLs that now takes place involves unauthorized use of the equipment 
that produces legitimate cards. The secure DL would cut down on this 
because the information on the card would be signed by by the 
operator of the equipment, making the forgery more traceable. The 
data would also be signed using a key that is only available at a 
central location and a copy of the signed info would be retained in 
the driver database (this information is already collected anyway). 
This would make it more difficult to change just the photo on the 
license, for example.

The main difference between a secure driver's license and a national 
ID is that there would be no new requirement to obtain or carry the 
card.  One can look at it as the nose in the camel's tent or as a way 
to deflect pressure for more Draconian solutions.

Thoughts?

Arnold Reinhold


At 1:47 PM -0400 10/3/2001, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
--- begin forwarded text


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From: National Review D.C. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: AGAINST ID CARDS
Date: Wed,  3 Oct 2001 13:58:40 +
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Washington Bulletin: National Review's Internet Update for
October 3, 2001
http://www.nationalreview.com

AGAINST ID CARDS
[The worse way to fight terrorism]

Only a bare majority of Americans--51 percent--support the creation of a
national identity card, according to a new poll by Fabrizio, McLaughlin
 Associates. This is a substantial loss of support since the Pew
Research Center found 70 percent endorsing the concept in a survey it
conducted immediately after the September 11 attacks.

Yet plenty of warning signs remain. Westerners are only demographic
group with a majority opposing ID cards (53 percent) and senior citizens
are the only segment with a plurality against it (47 percent).
Republicans and men are evenly split on the issue, with Democrats and
women likely to favor it. Most troubling, however, may be that the poll
shows overall support jumping to 61 percent when the ID card is
described as ìa measure to combat terrorism and make the use of false
identities more difficult.î

If ever the American public was primed to accept an ID card, the time is
now. A recent Washington Post survey reports that 64 percent of
Americans say they trust the federal government to do the right thing
ìnearly alwaysî or ìmost of the timeî--the highest level of trust
recorded since 1966 and twice the level measured just a year ago. ìThis
is the most collective mood weíve seen in America for a long time,î
Democratic pollster Celinda Lake told the New York Times. ìAnd itís
coming off one of the most individualistic eras in American history.î

The Bush administration already has signaled through a spokesman that it
does not support the idea, though several members of Congress have
embraced it and House immigration subcommittee chairman George Gekas, a
Pennsylvania Republican, says ID cards will definitely receive
consideration. Oracle CEO Larry Ellison has said his company, a leader
in databases, would donate the software to make it happen.

Conservatives must oppose these internal passports with vigor. They may
be promoted now as tools for combating terrorism, but their potential
for abuse is enormous. How long before the federal government also
starts tracking gun sales through them? Or auditing income-tax

Re: AGAINST ID CARDS

2001-10-05 Thread R. A. Hettinga

At 6:41 PM -0400 on 10/4/01, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:


 Thoughts?

See the work of Stephan Brands, and others, on capabability based credentials.

You don't need anything but the proof of a permission to drive, and
linkability of that proof-token to driving offenses in the database. Nobody
needs to see the identity credentials in the database unless you have to go
to trial.

Poof. No ID card. You can do this for all kinds of stuff, proof of age,
right to carry a concealed weapon on an aircraft, :-), or anything else.

Cheers,
RAH


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experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'



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