Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Stopforth, Jamie]

Title: RE: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam






Every time I bring this up in public there is a dead silence. How can
churches get away with running for profit schools, factories, rentals,
and such and not pay taxes? The Organized Chruches in this country are
vastly rich, and getting ever richer. Yet they do not pay taxes.
Jayson


 I think the question we should be asking ourselves is how can the government get away with forcing everyone to pay taxes as if it's citizens obligation? Well, that's another issue all-together, when you look at how the income tax amendment was ratified and how the system is supposed to be a voluntary system... Anyways, the Churches have it right. We should all follow suit. 

Jamie

Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Marilyn Wright]

-Caveat Lector-

On 7 Jan 01, at 14:01, Jayson R. Jones wrote:

 Every time I bring this up in public there is a dead silence.  How can
 churches get away with running for profit schools, factories, rentals,
 and such and not pay taxes?  The Organized Chruches in this country
 are vastly rich, and getting ever richer.  Yet they do not pay taxes.
 Jayson

Actually, money and  poverty has always been a major issue within
the church and I do believe that some groups who advocated
following Jesus' example and living austerely, frugally, and sharing
cooperatively with others --which you may call "socialistic" or even
"communistic" --have been excommunicated for the commission of
heresy. I believe this was one of the issues between the Cathars
and the Church leading to horrific massacres--See The
Albegensian heresy.

The Church, it seems, is aligned with money--since money gives
power. Humility and poverty are reserved for poor priests whose
parishes embrace the poor in remote outposts. "The Name of the
Rose" by Umberto Ecco also had this issue of money/poverty as a
central issue and it did involve, if I remember correctly, advocating
poverty as a heresy.


sno0wl

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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Jayson R. Jones]

-Caveat Lector-

On Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:09:55 -0500 Marilyn Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
-Caveat Lector-

On 7 Jan 01, at 14:01, Jayson R. Jones wrote:
 Every time I bring this up in public there is a dead silence.  How
can churches get away with running for profit schools, factories,
rentals, and such and not pay taxes?  The Organized Chruches in this
country
 are vastly rich, and getting ever richer.  Yet they do not pay taxes.
 Jayson

Actually, money and  poverty has always been a major issue within
the church and I do believe that some groups who advocated
following Jesus' example and living austerely, frugally, and sharing
cooperatively with others --which you may call "socialistic" or even
"communistic" --have been excommunicated for the commission of
heresy. I believe this was one of the issues between the Cathars
and the Church leading to horrific massacres--See The
Albegensian heresy.

I very much admire the way the Amish, and others of that mindset, live.
I do not mean the beliefs they hold or their religious practices.  What I
mean is they live simply, and well.  They take care of the land, and
themselves at the same time.  The are respectfull to each other and share
equally.  That is neither socialism nor communism.

The Church, it seems, is aligned with money--since money gives
power. Humility and poverty are reserved for poor priests whose
parishes embrace the poor in remote outposts. "The Name of the
Rose" by Umberto Ecco also had this issue of money/poverty as a
central issue and it did involve, if I remember correctly, advocating
poverty as a heresy.
sno0wl

I don't know where you're going here.

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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Jayson R. Jones]

-Caveat Lector-

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:41:28 -0800 Cliff Hume [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
-Caveat Lector-
When you are checking out you history of Christianity, also look for
the numbers of people who have been turned away from Christianity for
the
atrocities perpetrated in the name of religion or faith.

Millions of people belong to churches who listen to and believe the
pastors or preachers, or whatever name they might be called, but the
majority
of them are turning people away from Christianity. Some of those who are
preaching from the pulpits are socialists and communists, the
difference between the two being nil.

Most of the preachers are pretty right wing republicans.  I don't get the
impression that they are either communist or socialist.  Isn't the
Religious Right the driving force in the republican party?

The churches which operate with a government sanctioned, tax-free
status, should be suspect, because the minute they begin to teach and
preach
the truth, their free ride at the expense of the tax-payers is canceled.
Of course, the tax thing is a whole new topic to cover, because it is
an illegal, 'voluntary' scam, enforced by criminal governments.
Yours very truly,
Cliff Hume.

Every time I bring this up in public there is a dead silence.  How can
churches get away with running for profit schools, factories, rentals,
and such and not pay taxes?  The Organized Chruches in this country are
vastly rich, and getting ever richer.  Yet they do not pay taxes.
Jayson

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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Jayson R. Jones]

-Caveat Lector-

On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:30:29 -0500 Ynr Chyldz Wyld [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
-Caveat Lector-
Generally this is true...but Indonesia has been having a lot of civil
turmoil the past couple of years, and
the divisions are drawn along religion lines -- Islam against
Christianity against Buddhists and animists
(immigrants from China and other far-eastern countries); it is like
the Catholics and Protestants of Northern
Ireland...while factions are drawn along the lines of religious
affiliation, the actual gripes have little to
do with religion...

Unfortunately there HAVE been a number of slaughters occuring in
Indonesia over the past 2 years...
June

So it would be fair to say that their "Christianity" had less to do with
their deaths than their political standing?  I'll bet the christians will
make a big issue out of the fact that they were christians and play down
the political reality.
Jayson

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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

I'll bet the christians will make a big issue out of the fact that they
were christians and play down the political reality.

Any Christian who condemns the slaughter of anybody for their religious
beliefs is a hypocrite. Even a cursory perusal of history demonstrates
conclusively that blood drips from Christendom's fangs. They have stolen
entire continents and enslaved entire races. They are NOT what they say
they are. Brotherly love!?! Gimme a break. Mass murder, rape and rapine
have been their main contributions to history. Look it up. This is not
to say Muslims have not striven mightily to outstrip them in slaughter,
only that the Christians had a head start, and better weapons.

But what's happening in Indonesia is mainly about imperialism, not
religion. Indonesia is an empire. It is armed, and to some extent
financed, by America. It's victims grow weary of being exploited. The
chickens are coming home to roost.

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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[BB]

 SO, ... then, after it's all hashed out,
is it a GOOD thing that
93 Christians were Killed For Not Coverting to Islam 
"Stopforth, Jamie" wrote:

So if a person kills in the name of Christianity, they're
true Christians and all other true Christians should be bunched into the
same group? Umm, Okay. That's logical. Just to clarify,
there is a difference in being a Christian rather then claiming to be one.
"you will know them by their fruit."
Jamie
-Original Message-
From: Nessie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 1:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting
to Islam
-Caveat Lector-
>I'll bet the christians will make a big issue out of
the fact that they
were christians and play down the political reality.
Any Christian who condemns the slaughter of anybody for
their religious
beliefs is a hypocrite. Even a cursory perusal of history
demonstrates
conclusively that blood drips from Christendom's fangs.
They have stolen
entire continents and enslaved entire races. They are
NOT what they say
they are. Brotherly love!?! Gimme a break. Mass murder,
rape and rapine
have been their main contributions to history. Look it
up. This is not
to say Muslims have not striven mightily to outstrip
them in slaughter,
only that the Christians had a head start, and better
weapons.
But what's happening in Indonesia is mainly about imperialism,
not
religion. Indonesia is an empire. It is armed, and to
some extent
financed, by America. It's victims grow weary of being
exploited. The
chickens are coming home to roost.
A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org/A>
DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
=CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange
list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance-not soap-boxing-please!
These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many
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directions and outright frauds-is used politically by
different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum
of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity
of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read.
CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Nessie]

-Caveat Lector-

there is a difference in being a Christian rather then claiming to be
one.  "you will know them by their fruit."


Then the "real" Christians should do something about the "imposters" who
are besmearching the name of their  faith. If a guy called himself
"nessie" and went around committing atrocities so that people thought I
was somehow to blame, I'd hunt him down and kill him. It's the only sane
course of action. Why do "real" Christians allow these "imposters" to
live? After fifteen hundered years of bloody slaughter, torture and
slavery, the rest of us are getting mighty damn sick of excuses.

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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[kl]

-Caveat Lector-

From: "Jayson R. Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 In the first place, I have some grave reservations about the
 veracity of this blurb.  It does not correspond to what little I
 know of Islam, in that Islam does not have any evangelicism (convert
 or die) in its history.

 http://www.secularislam.org/jihad/

Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society


Home

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A Skeptic's Guide to the Koran

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---

Jihad, the Arab Conquests and the Position of Non-
Muslim Subjects

Apologists of Islam still insist on perpetuating the
myth of an Islam which accorded equality to her non-
Muslim subjects, they talk of a time when all the
various religious communities lived in perfect harmony
in the Islamic lands. The same apologists minimize, or
even excuse, the persecution, the discrimination, the
forced conversions, the massacres, the destruction of
the churches, synagogues, fire temples and other
places of worship.  This rosy but totally false
picture of Islam is also built up by

(1) ignoring the destruction and the massacres during
the actual process of the Arab conquests;

(2) by concentrating almost exclusively on the fate of
Jews and Christians, and consequently dismissing the
fate of idolaters (are they not human?), Zoroastrians,
Hindus and Buddhists

(3) by relying on Muslim sources, as though they are
bound to be less biased!

(4) by ignoring, or excusing the appalling behaviour
of the Prophet towards the Jews;

(5) by ignoring the intolerant, hostile, anti- Jewish,
anti-Christian, and above all, anti-pagan sentiments
expressed in the Koran which were the source of much
intolerant, fanatical and violent behaviour throughout
the history of Islam against all non-Muslims.

EARLY ATTITUDES: Muhammad and the Koran

The Koran has been divided into early and late Suras,
the Meccan and Medinan Suras respectively.  Most of
the tolerant sentiments of Muhammad are to be found in
the early, Meccan Suras:

cix  "Recite: O Unbelievers, I worship not what you
worship, and you do not worship what I worship.  I
shall never worship what you worship. Neither will you
worship what I worship. To you your religion, to me my
religion l.45   "We well know what the infidels say:
but you are not to compel them."

xliii. 88,89 "And [Muhammad] says, "O Lord, these are
people who do not believe." Bear with them and wish
them 'Peace' . In the end they shall know their
folly."

The exceptions are to be found in Sura ii, which is
usually considered Medinan i.e. late:

ii.256 "There is no compulsion in religion";

ii.62"Those who believe [i.e.Muslims] and those who
follow the Jewish scriptures, and the Christians and
the Sabians, and who believe in God and the Last Day
and work righteousness, shall have their reward with
their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they
grieve."

Unfortunately, as he gained in confidence and
increased his political and military power, Muhammad
turned from being a "persuader to being a legislator
and warrior, dictating obedience." The Medinan
chapters such as Suras ix, v, iv, xxii, xlvii, viii,
and ii reveal Muhammad at his most belligerent,
dogmatic and intolerant.

 Muslim theologians are unanimous in declaring that no
religious toleration was extended to the idolaters of
Arabia at the time of Muhammad. The only choice given
them was death or the acceptance of Islam. This total
intolerance never seems to be taken into consideration
by the apologists of Islam when they lay claims to
Islamic tolerance.  Unbelievers in general are shown
no mercy in the Koran which is full of lurid
descriptions of the punishments awaiting them.
xxii.9:"As for the unbelievers for them garments of
fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their
heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their
bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be
punished with hooked iron- rods.  The Koran also
enjoins all Muslims to fight and kill non-believers:
xlvii.4: "When you meet the unbelievers, strike off
their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter
among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."

Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Cliff Hume]

-Caveat Lector-

Nessie:

When you are checking out you history of Christianity, also look for the
numbers of people who have been turned away from Christianity for the
atrocities perpetrated in the name of religion or faith.

Millions of people belong to churches who listen to and believe the pastors
or preachers, or whatever name they might be called, but the majority of
them are turning people away from Christianity. Some of those who are
preaching from the pulpits are socialists and communists, the difference
between the two being nil.

The churches which operate with a government sanctioned, tax-free status,
should be suspect, because the minute they begin to teach and preach the
truth, their free ride at the expense of the tax-payers is canceled.

Of course, the tax thing is a whole new topic to cover, because it is an
illegal, 'voluntary' scam, enforced by criminal governments.

Yours very truly,

Cliff Hume.

From: Jana Janus [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Accept-Language: en
Subject: TSR ISRAEL, YOU'RE BUSTED!
To: undisclosed-recipients:;

The Slazon Report #010501
Israel, You're Busted!

"As they returned home, the brothers stained with blood Joseph's
distinctive coat, which they had torn from him, thus following their
plan to cover their own guilt and attribute Joseph's absence to his
death in an encounter with a wild animal. This news caused much sorrow
to their aged father [Jacob], who mourned inconsolably for the supposed
demise of his favorite son (see verses [Genesis] 33-35)." (p. 29)
--Thomas Linton Leishman "The Continuity of the Bible, the Patriarchs"
(The Christian Science Publishing Society 1968)

This paragraph, and the verses referred to in Genesis, proves beyond a
doubt that Jacob, aka "Israel", was nothing more than an ordinary man,
and certainly not a very bright one. In fact, Jacob is downright
ignorant. Had he been special, "inspired by God", he would have been
INTELLIGENT. Had he been Intelligent he would have possessed Creative
Thought, Intuition, Wonder and Imagination. Jacob possessed none of
these qualities or he would have known that his sons were jealous
monsters, liars, and perfectly capable of selling one of their own into
slavery for 20 pieces of silver. But no, Jacob, the father of monsters
"mourned inconsolably for the supposed demise of his favorite son" and
continued on in ignorance until his undead son eventually wreaked enough
havoc on Egypt to provide a cushy place for him and his monsters to
fertilize the seeds of destruction and world domination.

Israel, YOU'RE BUSTED!

Jana Janus
Timelessly Present on The Mean Planet


At 02:46 PM 1/5/01 -0700, you wrote:
SO, ...  then, after it's all hashed out,  is it a GOOD thing
that
93 Christians were Killed For Not Coverting to Islam 

"Stopforth, Jamie" wrote:



 So if a person kills in the name of Christianity, they're true
 Christians and all other true Christians should be bunched into the
 same group?  Umm, Okay. That's logical.   Just to clarify, there is
 a difference in being a Christian rather then claiming to be one.
 "you will know them by their fruit."

 Jamie

 -Original Message-
 From: Nessie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 1:38 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

 -Caveat Lector-

 I'll bet the christians will make a big issue out of the fact that
 they
 were christians and play down the political reality.

 Any Christian who condemns the slaughter of anybody for their
 religious
 beliefs is a hypocrite. Even a cursory perusal of history
 demonstrates
 conclusively that blood drips from Christendom's fangs. They have
 stolen
 entire continents and enslaved entire races. They are NOT what they
 say
 they are. Brotherly love!?! Gimme a break. Mass murder, rape and
 rapine
 have been their main contributions to history. Look it up. This is
 not
 to say Muslims have not striven mightily to outstrip them in
 slaughter,
 only that the Christians had a head start, and better weapons.

 But what's happening in Indonesia is mainly about imperialism, not
 religion. Indonesia is an empire. It is armed, and to some extent
 financed, by America. It's victims grow weary of being exploited.
 The
 chickens are coming home to roost.

 A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 =CTRL is a discussion  informational exchange list.
 Proselytizing propagandic
 screeds are unwelcomed. Substance-not soap-boxing-please!  These are

 sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many half-truths,
 mis-
 directions and outright frauds-is used politically by different
 groups with
 major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and
 thought.
 That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts,
 and
 always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL g

Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Jayson R. Jones]

-Caveat Lector-

On Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:25:53 EST William Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
-Caveat Lector-
In a message dated 1/3/01 4:54:44 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Jakarta:  Muslims have slaughtered 93 Christians  on  a
   small island of the  Maluku chain for refusing to convert to
   Islam, a church activist said

And this compares to the wholesale slaughter of non-xians during the
Crusades and up 'til today how?
Bill.

In the first place, I have some grave reservations about the veracity of
this blurb.  It does not correspond to what little I know of Islam, in
that Islam does not have any evangelicism (convert or die) in its
history.  No religion other than christianity does.  Secondly, as Bill
points out, it is christians who have historically slaughtered
nonbelievers when they object to forced conversion.  I suspect that, if
this 'slaughter' actually happened, it was for far different reasons than
given here.
--part1_e3.e8b2247.27852b21_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

HTMLFONT FACE=arial,helveticaFONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="FIXED"
FACE="Courier New" LANG="0"In a message dated 1/3/01 4:54:44 PM
Central Standard Time, BR[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
BR
BR/FONTFONT  COLOR="#00" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
FACE="Arial" LANG="0"
BRBLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"gt;
nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;Jakarta:
nbsp;Muslims have slaughtered 93 Christians nbsp;on nbsp;a
BRgt; nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;small island of the
nbsp;Maluku chain for refusing to convert to
BRgt; nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;nbsp;Islam, a church activist said
nbsp;yesterday./BLOCKQUOTE
BR/FONTFONT  COLOR="#00" SIZE=2 FAMILY="FIXED" FACE="Courier
New" LANG="0"
BR
BRAnd this compares to the wholesale slaughter of non-xians during
the Crusades BRand up 'til today how?
BR
BRBill./FONT/HTML

--part1_e3.e8b2247.27852b21_boundary--

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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Ynr Chyldz Wyld]

-Caveat Lector-

From: "Jayson R. Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Jakarta:  Muslims have slaughtered 93 Christians  on  a
small island of the  Maluku chain for refusing to convert to
Islam, a church activist said

 And this compares to the wholesale slaughter of non-xians during the
 Crusades and up 'til today how?
 Bill.

 In the first place, I have some grave reservations about the veracity of
 this blurb.  It does not correspond to what little I know of Islam, in
 that Islam does not have any evangelicism (convert or die) in its
 history.

Generally this is true...but Indonesia has been having a lot of civil turmoil the past 
couple of years, and
the divisions are drawn along religion lines -- Islam against Christianity against 
Buddhists and animists
(immigrants from China and other far-eastern countries); it is like the Catholics and 
Protestants of Northern
Ireland...while factions are drawn along the lines of religious affiliation, the 
actual gripes have little to
do with religion...

Unfortunately there HAVE been a number of slaughters occuring in Indonesia over the 
past 2 years...


June

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Re: [CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Vera Harper]

-Caveat Lector-

Oh Bill, that was a pretty flimsy argument. How many Jews have been slaughtered 
throughout the ages? Yet we get nightly news reports of how many palestinians have 
been killed by the Israelis. How many blacks have been lynched throughout this 
country's history? Yet if black people rose up and slaughtered whites, it would be 
horrible AND newsworthy. The heinous history of any group does not give another group 
the right to murder too. This massacre would be horrible whether the killers were 
muslim or Christian. Have a heart, man! This guy escaped with his children. If he 
hadn't, they all might be dead. Killing a child NEVER has a good excuse.

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[CTRL] 93 Christians Killed For Not Coverting to Islam

[Tenorlove]

-Caveat Lector-

Source at bottom, I wasn't given a URL.

Tenorlove
~~
   INDONESIA

   Jakarta:  Muslims have slaughtered 93 Christians  on  a
  small island of the  Maluku chain for refusing to convert to
  Islam, a church activist said  yesterday.

   A  lawyer  with the Maranatha Christian Centre  in  the
  Malukus  capital  of  Ambon, Mr Sammy  Weileruni,  said  the
  "forced  Islamisation  of Christians in  Kasiui  island  has
  been continuing since last week, and by Saturday a total  of
  93 people have been killed".

   Mr  Weileruni said a man who escaped from Kasiui  on  a
  boat with his  children, and who arrived in Ambon yesterday,
  had given him the  information. Kasiui is a small island  in
  the Watubela island group east of  Ambon island.

   The  man,  a  teacher, told him that when  he  left  on
  Saturday,  a  total of 763  other  Christians,  fearing  for
  their lives, had agreed to convert to Islam.

   The  victims  were among about 3,000 people  from  four
  villages  on the island  who fled into the jungles  after  a
  mass  attack  by Muslims last Tuesday week  in  which  eight
  villagers were killed.

   Those  captured were given the choice of converting  to
  Islam or being  killed.

   The  spokesman for the military headquarters  in  Ambon
  could not be reached  for comment.

   The  Maluku  islands,  previously known  as  the  Spice
  Islands,  have been torn  apart by almost two years of  Mus-
  lim-Christian conflict, leaving more than  4,000 people dead
  and more than 500,000 as refugees.

   The sectarian violence was sparked by a dispute between
  a  Christian public  transport driver and a Muslim in  Ambon
  City  in  January last year that  quickly  degenerated  into
  fights  between Muslims and Christians before  spreading  to
  other islands.

   In June, Jakarta imposed a state of civil emergency  in
  the Malukus and the  North Malukus, but it has so far failed
  to  rein in the violence. Both sides   haveaccused  security
  forces of taking part in the fighting.

   Agence France-Presse

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