Re: [CTRL] Community morality
-Caveat Lector- This post is slightly different than the one you sent me on SAT , no? Unfortunately I accidentally deleted that puppy - I think it was more cogent. I don't think I mentioned anything about sexual morality - so I'm not sure what your disclaimer is about. I think just be a good human being would be an excellent law - too bad it has never been tried. Maybe there are too few good human beings. God? Cosmic consciousness? My beliefs are certainly not based on either of those problematic concepts. In your original post you implied that My view was that any belief system is valid, and that I would allow anyone any action because I accepted all beliefs as equal. I don't think that is what I said. What I said was that a person who acts correctly because of external pressure to act that way is not behaving Morally. Moral behavior is when you act correctly because you believe it is the right way to act. People can think what they like. That is freedom. Does that mean anything they think is moral? No. never said that. Does that mean any act is permissible? Nope - never said that either. Did I deny community? Nope - I just said that I define my community rather more broadly than you define yours. I was very explicit about what I think is moral - I did not say that everyone's morality was equally correct. Let me repeat: I stand for freedom of thought and action, guided by compassion. You focused on the 1st half of that, and ignored the compassion part. Typical really. Now lets rein this in a bit and get back to the discussion - I made a joke - a tasteless joke, especially in the context - but a joke none the less. You told me my joke was not serving the Jewish community. My joke was not made by, for, or in behalf of the Jewish community, as I am not the Jewish community. I am a person, perhaps with an inappropriate sense of humor. You then told me you have no sense of humor when it comes to the Jewish community. I tell you - you have not learned the behavior patterns or survival skills of the community you claim to typify. The Jewish response has ALWAYS been humor - it is our greatest strength - the ability to disarm tragedy through humor. If anyone is not true to the ideals of the so-called Jewish community then, it is you not I. Because I defended humor, you asked me where I stood about morality - And told me I was outside the morality of the Jewish community. I agreed - that is not the community that I primarily define myself by. I am not sure where you get from that the idea that I think all morals are equal, all communities equally legitimate ,and all actions acceptable. I just think that basing morality on fairy tales and bloodlines is ridiculous at best, and more often dangerous than not. on 01/08/03 1:31 AM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I reached my posting limit on Sunday, so I could not reply to you then. Here is the response to your comments which appear after mine. Let me say here when I talk of morality, I am not just talking about sexual morality. I am talking about all interactions between individuals, individuals as community members and those actions which link an individual's life to a plan that seems to go beyond the world immediately around us. There is no contradiction in what I say. The history of the determination of what is moral behavior toward others is demonstrated very clearly in the Talmud for example where the leaders of the Jewish community analyzed thru argument using precedent and review of accepted religious writings the basics of what was moral behavior in given situations. Community law had to conform to moral law. Moral law was not determined by what community law was. Nor was it not left to what each individual community member considered valid in their own thinking, because individual belief is limited by one's own experience and one's own exposure to information. In addition, human beings seem to very successfully rationalize any kind of action they want in their life. There would have been no necessity for religious law or civil law if Just be a good human being was good enough law. Your do-it-yourself moral code is very New Age and rests on the idea that every person is part of God energy and is tapping into some sort of cosmic consciousness to determine what is acceptable individual morality which needs no other justification. Authorized community morality, or laws, then become determined by those who are in power and have the strongest will as not all individual moral positions can be accommodated where there is community life. You talk of your morality not as a response, but as of your own determination. Idealistic. How will you resolve the differences between your morality, the morality of others and the morality of those in power when there is a conflict? How can you hold on to your moral beliefs in the face of those in power whose moral beliefs are different than yours and
Re: [CTRL] Community morality
-Caveat Lector- Thew, several points. You identify yourself continuously as someone who is Jewish as if that determines your views. I don't see you consistently singularly associating your views to gender, profession, locality, family type, age, wealth, political choice, religious connection or any other marker. If you did, I'm sure there would be others who would correctly point out that your views aren't the views of everyone in that group, particularly if your remarks are nasty and insulting toward others outside of that group. It's obvious your thoughts about morality aren't very thought out and are rather simplistic and self-serving. (Compassion...I'd rather not start listing what can be done to others in the name of compassion.) I just wanted to point out to others that that this is so not because you a Jewish spokesman, but because you are just someone who is entitled to voice any kind of opinion on a site like this. -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Community morality -Caveat Lector- This post is slightly different than the one you sent me on SAT , no? Unfortunately I accidentally deleted that puppy - I think it was more cogent. I don't think I mentioned anything about sexual morality - so I'm not sure what your disclaimer is about. I think just be a good human being would be an excellent law - too bad it has never been tried. Maybe there are too few good human beings. God? Cosmic consciousness? My beliefs are certainly not based on either of those problematic concepts. In your original post you implied that My view was that any belief system is valid, and that I would allow anyone any action because I accepted all beliefs as equal. I don't think that is what I said. What I said was that a person who acts correctly because of external pressure to act that way is not behaving Morally. Moral behavior is when you act correctly because you believe it is the right way to act. People can think what they like. That is freedom. Does that mean anything they think is moral? No. never said that. Does that mean any act is permissible? Nope - never said that either. Did I deny community? Nope - I just said that I define my community rather more broadly than you define yours. I was very explicit about what I think is moral - I did not say that everyone's morality was equally correct. Let me repeat: I stand for freedom of thought and action, guided by compassion. You focused on the 1st half of that, and ignored the compassion part. Typical really. Now lets rein this in a bit and get back to the discussion - I made a joke - a tasteless joke, especially in the context - but a joke none the less. You told me my joke was not serving the Jewish community. My joke was not made by, for, or in behalf of the Jewish community, as I am not the Jewish community. I am a person, perhaps with an inappropriate sense of humor. You then told me you have no sense of humor when it comes to the Jewish community. I tell you - you have not learned the behavior patterns or survival skills of the community you claim to typify. The Jewish response has ALWAYS been humor - it is our greatest strength - the ability to disarm tragedy through humor. If anyone is not true to the ideals of the so-called Jewish community then, it is you not I. Because I defended humor, you asked me where I stood about morality - And told me I was outside the morality of the Jewish community. I agreed - that is not the community that I primarily define myself by. I am not sure where you get from that the idea that I think all morals are equal, all communities equally legitimate ,and all actions acceptable. I just think that basing morality on fairy tales and bloodlines is ridiculous at best, and more often dangerous than not. on 01/08/03 1:31 AM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I reached my posting limit on Sunday, so I could not reply to you then. Here is the response to your comments which appear after mine. Let me say here when I talk of morality, I am not just talking about sexual morality. I am talking about all interactions between individuals, individuals as community members and those actions which link an individual's life to a plan that seems to go beyond the world immediately around us. There is no contradiction in what I say. The history of the determination of what is moral behavior toward others is demonstrated very clearly in the Talmud for example where the leaders of the Jewish community analyzed thru argument using precedent and review of accepted religious writings the basics of what was moral behavior in given situations. Community law had to conform to moral law. Moral law was not determined by what community law was. Nor was it not left to what each individual community member considered valid in their own thinking, because
Re: [CTRL] Community morality
-Caveat Lector- Jewish is just one of many influences that shaped who I am, but it did not DETERMINE anything. It's a small piece in the puzzle. Funny, it seemed more like chastisement to me than a shout out to others. My thoughts on morality have hardly been dipped into here, for they really were not the point. I made a joke you found distasteful. You told me that joke shamed the jewish community. Whatever. It's a funny joke. Still makes me laugh. Get over it. on 01/08/03 11:01 PM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Thew, several points. You identify yourself continuously as someone who is Jewish as if that determines your views. I don't see you consistently singularly associating your views to gender, profession, locality, family type, age, wealth, political choice, religious connection or any other marker. If you did, I'm sure there would be others who would correctly point out that your views aren't the views of everyone in that group, particularly if your remarks are nasty and insulting toward others outside of that group. It's obvious your thoughts about morality aren't very thought out and are rather simplistic and self-serving. (Compassion...I'd rather not start listing what can be done to others in the name of compassion.) I just wanted to point out to others that that this is so not because you a Jewish spokesman, but because you are just someone who is entitled to voice any kind of opinion on a site like this. -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Community morality -Caveat Lector- This post is slightly different than the one you sent me on SAT , no? Unfortunately I accidentally deleted that puppy - I think it was more cogent. I don't think I mentioned anything about sexual morality - so I'm not sure what your disclaimer is about. I think just be a good human being would be an excellent law - too bad it has never been tried. Maybe there are too few good human beings. God? Cosmic consciousness? My beliefs are certainly not based on either of those problematic concepts. In your original post you implied that My view was that any belief system is valid, and that I would allow anyone any action because I accepted all beliefs as equal. I don't think that is what I said. What I said was that a person who acts correctly because of external pressure to act that way is not behaving Morally. Moral behavior is when you act correctly because you believe it is the right way to act. People can think what they like. That is freedom. Does that mean anything they think is moral? No. never said that. Does that mean any act is permissible? Nope - never said that either. Did I deny community? Nope - I just said that I define my community rather more broadly than you define yours. I was very explicit about what I think is moral - I did not say that everyone's morality was equally correct. Let me repeat: I stand for freedom of thought and action, guided by compassion. You focused on the 1st half of that, and ignored the compassion part. Typical really. Now lets rein this in a bit and get back to the discussion - I made a joke - a tasteless joke, especially in the context - but a joke none the less. You told me my joke was not serving the Jewish community. My joke was not made by, for, or in behalf of the Jewish community, as I am not the Jewish community. I am a person, perhaps with an inappropriate sense of humor. You then told me you have no sense of humor when it comes to the Jewish community. I tell you - you have not learned the behavior patterns or survival skills of the community you claim to typify. The Jewish response has ALWAYS been humor - it is our greatest strength - the ability to disarm tragedy through humor. If anyone is not true to the ideals of the so-called Jewish community then, it is you not I. Because I defended humor, you asked me where I stood about morality - And told me I was outside the morality of the Jewish community. I agreed - that is not the community that I primarily define myself by. I am not sure where you get from that the idea that I think all morals are equal, all communities equally legitimate ,and all actions acceptable. I just think that basing morality on fairy tales and bloodlines is ridiculous at best, and more often dangerous than not. on 01/08/03 1:31 AM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I reached my posting limit on Sunday, so I could not reply to you then. Here is the response to your comments which appear after mine. Let me say here when I talk of morality, I am not just talking about sexual morality. I am talking about all interactions between individuals, individuals as community members and those actions which link an individual's life to a plan that seems
[CTRL] Community morality
-Caveat Lector- I reached my posting limit on Sunday, so I could not reply to you then. Here is the response to your comments which appear after mine. Let me say here when I talk of morality, I am not just talking about sexual morality. I am talking about all interactions between individuals, individuals as community members and those actions which link an individual's life to a plan that seems to go beyond the world immediately around us. There is no contradiction in what I say. The history of the determination of what is moral behavior toward others is demonstrated very clearly in the Talmud for example where the leaders of the Jewish community analyzed thru argument using precedent and review of accepted religious writings the basics of what was moral behavior in given situations. Community law had to conform to moral law. Moral law was not determined by what community law was. Nor was it not left to what each individual community member considered valid in their own thinking, because individual belief is limited by one's own experience and one's own exposure to information. In addition, human beings seem to very successfully rationalize any kind of action they want in their life. There would have been no necessity for religious law or civil law if Just be a good human being was good enough law. Your do-it-yourself moral code is very New Age and rests on the idea that every person is part of God energy and is tapping into some sort of cosmic consciousness to determine what is acceptable individual morality which needs no other justification. Authorized community morality, or laws, then become determined by those who are in power and have the strongest will as not all individual moral positions can be accommodated where there is community life. You talk of your morality not as a response, but as of your own determination. Idealistic. How will you resolve the differences between your morality, the morality of others and the morality of those in power when there is a conflict? How can you hold on to your moral beliefs in the face of those in power whose moral beliefs are different than yours and still survive as a member of a political community? You say that individuals can think what they wish. Can they act on what they believe or are they only allowed to think what they wish? Read Gene Veith's book, Modern Fascism. Modern Fascism is not what you think it is. -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice -Caveat Lector- Do you not see your own contradiction here? Here let me make it explicit: Morality is the basis of community. And New Age morality is based on the idea of what is good for the community rather than on respect for the individual My community is somewhat larger than yours I guess - it is not limited by ethnicity or creed. It is not the community of secular Judaism, nor the community of Judaism. It is the community of humanity. My response to another is not based on a need to know what they believe in - my response is based on what I believe in REGARDLESS of their beliefs. While I don't think it is particularly healthy for the species for either fundamentalist Judaism or Christianity to continue, I will fight to the death the right of individuals to HOLD those beliefs. Your mind is your own. As I understand what it means to be a good Jew is to repair the shattered unity of the universe, or in less esoteric terms, to behave in a manner that increases the overall good and weal of the universe and the individuals in it. Behavior not belief defines a good Jew. It also defines a good human being. As to depending on the morality of others - well that will always fall short on depending on the morality of one's self. The key question is how to balance the need for the good of the community against the need to enhance the freedom of the individual. It is a difficult line to walk, especially because it is shifting constantly. Not only constantly, but at an ever increasing rate. That is why we cannot rely solely on some 5000 year old book and 1 year old metaphors to define what is or is not moral. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always,
