Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- flw wrote: -Caveat Lector- --- Richard makes some good points as far as it goes. My criticism is that his examples of fascism are too one dimensional. He basically relates to "bottom up" fascism. What we are experiencing now in the good ole USA is "top down" fascism. A long term plan through a partnership between the political class (politico-paths) and the Corporate Elite to destroy individual freedom through Corporate Statism. Why? Simply for the economic benefit of the Elite and the sheer joy of power exercised by the political class. flw Fascism with power behind it exists where FLW points to. It is not the political philosophy of choice by the current crop though. They are too liberal. This will change with the continued failure of their economic plans for the world. They could easily be replaced by corporate fascists like the ones that populated the Reagan administration during the cold war. We are not there yet. The subject is premature, and the paranoia is overblown. Joshua2 My God man! Look about you! Not there yet? The journey of 1000 miles is near its end. The locomotive engineer can see the station in the distance. To make a distinction between the current crop of "liberals" and the Reagan "conservatives"is like trying to make a distinction between Robert (let them eat interest) Rubin, Madeline (bombs away) Albright and James Baker and George Schultz. These corrupt Statists are all peas from the same pod. Yes they are. I was referring more to the background groups like The Committee on the Present Danger and their ilk. Old george shultz and many others among the conservatives were about as fascist as they could get away with being, and that wasn't " fascism " either. Do you really mean what you posted or are you a victim of MK ULTRA? FLW I mean what I posted. I spent a brief time in Greece when the Colonels were running it. That was a fascist state. Not Nazi fascism mind you, but fascist none the less. What you have here is nothing like the fear that people conducted their lives under. These exaggerations are silly. It's like you guys ( Libertarians and Paranoids ) have gone off the deep end. There are groups in this country which face a fascist government daily in their lives. You middle class white guys with computers are not among them yet. Chill out. Making you crazy fuckers get a license for a gun is not fascism even if Hitler did it too. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- Howard Davis wrote: So now I do not have the single question of whether or not it happened, but now I have two questions, first: Why did the allies do nothing about it? After the above was released I expected a lot of discussion on the above question. I did not see any on the major news web sites. Then last fall I went by the Holocaust Museum in Washington. I went by the library there to see what they had on this. The librarian knew nothing about it and even questioned if I might be mistaken. And, I could find nothing in any of the Journals they carried about this revelation. The second question, of course, is why not? Something is very fishy about this whole thing. You would think that there would have been a lot more about it in the news then, for instance, the Nazi gold in Switzerland. Also, the documents should set the total number killed much more accurately then was possible previously. Any ideas? Howard Davis Do you know any popular history that isn't simplified to a few basic points? Any that doesn't have clearly delineated good guys and bad guys? And it seems that the main defence against Holocaust deniers is to simplify further and focus all of the blame on those who committed the genocide and none on those who may have been complicit through acts of omission. The whole effect is to turn the Holocaust into an historical icon which has no meaning outside of itself; all those resolutions of "Never again" are as firm as a blade of grass in a hurricane. Anyway, I'm not convinced that this information is as suppressed as you imply (although it is surprising that the Holocaust museum professes to have no knowledge of it). I recall hearing Allied excuses years ago and I believe that there were a few posts on this list some weeks ago about whether or not the train tracks to Auschwitz should have been bombed. Nevertheless your concerns have some resonance with a current scandal that made a blip in the news and then disappeared: who knew what, and when, and failed to act on that information to prevent the genocide in Rwanda. Put Dallaire+Rwanda into a search engine to get the dirty details, but here are some of the highlights: -- General Dallaire asks for authorization to confiscate an arms cache. Not only is permission refused but Dallaire is instructed to relay his informant's intelligence and the U.N. decision not to act to the Rwandan president and his political party, even though they were the very people who were planning the massacre. (btw that's Gen. ROMEO Dallaire, an apt name for a peacekeeper: see Romeo Juliet Act 3, Sc. 1) -- Dallaire faxed the U.N. quoting a senior Rwandan security official as saying he had been ordered to register all Tutsis in Kigali for the purpose, he suspected, of "their extermination" Kofi Annan is head of peacekeeping operations at this time. -- Dallaire comes up with a plan to break the momentum of the slaughter. The U.N. Security Council dithers and the idea is finally scotched when Bill Clinton refuses to allow the use of American planes to transport troops from Nigeria and Ghana to Rwanda. (The Ghanaians probably come out best in the whole affair. The general in charge of their meagre forces already in Rwanda disobeys a direct order from the U.N. to evacuate, saving 5-10,000 Rwandans.) Later analysis of Dallaire's plan by Gen. Schroeder of the Carnegie Corp. suggests that it had a good chance of working and certainly could have been no worse than the U.N.'s (in)action. -- Dallaire and other U.N. officials are refused permission to testify at a Belgian inquiry. Annan cites "diplomatic immunity" and claims that all necessary information had already been furnished by the U.N. Coverup? (the Belgians are pissed at Dallaire because he dawdled while their soldiers were killed; Dallaire had been negotiating for the safety of the Rwandan prime minister, but she was probably already dead at the time) Annan later waives diplomatic immunity to allow Dallaire to testify at the trial of the Rwandan massacrists. Apparently his testimony regarding the insanity of the situation is to be used to mitigate the sentences of the killers. And so on. About a year ago a black Congresswoman from Georgia was pressing to find out what Clinton knew, and when he knew it, but apparently there's something about black Congresswomen that makes their voices inaudible to the media. But blaming Clinton won't help, especially with analysis from the Carnegie Corp.: "The
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- Do you REALLY write Frasier?? What happens to Daphne and Niles in the next series?? Brown, Jeremy wrote: This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The complete text has been enclosed as a file. -Caveat Lector- You know, this whole thing takes me back to the time when I wrote "A Tale of Two Cities". It took quite a while to finish it, though, as I was busy with the Polio vaccine at the same time, as well as having just returned from walking on the moon. Of course, none of this compares to the work I had to do on "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band". That George Martin is a real douchebag. Well, I'd love to keep talking about this, but I have to go and accept my Oscar for directing "Saving Private Ryan" and my emmy for my writing on "Frasier". Richard -Original Message- From: MARK [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- Wrong, wrong, wrong, Again you are falsely claiming credit for which you should not. The leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" was in fact written by my Good Friend, Alison Stalegrey, and I am sure she will have no reason not to begin proceedings for you claiming her work as your own, (As you did with Francis Dunnery's excellent paper "Anti-Statism - more than a state of mind" back in 1993). I do not wish to get into a personal battle on this list, however, if you continue to claim the hard work of others as that of your own, measures will have to be taken. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 16:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip and fall upon your own dagger. It was me who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who published it and me who distributed it. Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff away. Richard B. MARK wrote: -Caveat Lector- Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they were published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" freely available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous increase in public awarenss. I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU claim them as your own. You are a Charlatan and a Fraud. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In particular regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a large number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K. (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2 and Alamaine). With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout Europe and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the presence of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September 1993, Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a council seat in East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he increased his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists as a bunch of skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than then on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs' does hold true for the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by small cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi revival is not just a mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996), but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority opinion (take note Teo1000). How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in a Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most importantly, by not appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous suggestion last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the American Nazi Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that: "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the mire of the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he had not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British public were not prepared to accept
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- flw wrote: -Caveat Lector- What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In particular regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a large number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K. (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2 and Alamaine). With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout Europe and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the presence of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. I still believe many of you on the list have a lot of catching up to do regarding the current resurgance of the Neo-nazis and Fascist ideals amongst todays society, and hope that we can build a strong, meaningful and hopefully effective discussion on this most essential of lists. Come on CTRL, pull your socks up!!! Richard B. Richard makes some good points as far as it goes. My criticism is that his examples of fascism are too one dimensional. He basically relates to "bottom up" fascism. What we are experiencing now in the good ole USA is "top down" fascism. A long term plan through a partnership between the political class (politico-paths) and the Corporate Elite to destroy individual freedom through Corporate Statism. Why? Simply for the economic benefit of the Elite and the sheer joy of power exercised by the political class. flw Fascism with power behind it exists where FLW points to. It is not the political philosophy of choice by the current crop though. They are too liberal. This will change with the continued failure of their economic plans for the world. They could easily be replaced by corporate fascists like the ones that populated the Reagan administration during the cold war. We are not there yet. The subject is premature, and the paranoia is overblown. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- --- Richard makes some good points as far as it goes. My criticism is that his examples of fascism are too one dimensional. He basically relates to "bottom up" fascism. What we are experiencing now in the good ole USA is "top down" fascism. A long term plan through a partnership between the political class (politico-paths) and the Corporate Elite to destroy individual freedom through Corporate Statism. Why? Simply for the economic benefit of the Elite and the sheer joy of power exercised by the political class. flw Fascism with power behind it exists where FLW points to. It is not the political philosophy of choice by the current crop though. They are too liberal. This will change with the continued failure of their economic plans for the world. They could easily be replaced by corporate fascists like the ones that populated the Reagan administration during the cold war. We are not there yet. The subject is premature, and the paranoia is overblown. Joshua2 My God man! Look about you! Not there yet? The journey of 1000 miles is near its end. The locomotive engineer can see the station in the distance. To make a distinction between the current crop of "liberals" and the Reagan "conservatives"is like trying to make a distinction between Robert (let them eat interest) Rubin, Madeline (bombs away) Albright and James Baker and George Schultz. These corrupt Statists are all peas from the same pod. Do you really mean what you posted or are you a victim of MK ULTRA? FLW DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- -- What is interesting is that European Fascists also claimed "victimhood". Derogation of Individual Freedom in the name of Victimhood is a time honored Fascist Rite. "Fascism ends in concentration camps, it does not begin with them". flw A friend of mine said the exact same thing to me today. He said that the only difference between the US today and Nazi Germany is that they got to wear "really cool uniforms" and we don't. The Fourth Reich is alive and well in the good old US of A. Teo1000 This is only true for some minorities and political views. Otherwise, the above statements are way exaggerated as far as most Americans are concerned. J2 Hmm. Many Germans thought the same thing in the early 1930's. flw DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
:09:49 -0500 (EST) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: 00c201be4eb2$fef273c0$6ccc0dd0@network Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:50:26 -0500 Reply-To: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: Conspiracy Theory Research List [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: flw [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order" To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they were published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" freely available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous increase in public awarenss. I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU claim them as your own. You are a Charlatan and a Fraud. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In particular regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a large number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K. (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2 and Alamaine). With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout Europe and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the presence of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September 1993, Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a council seat in East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he increased his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists as a bunch of skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than then on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs' does hold true for the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by small cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi revival is not just a mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996), but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority opinion (take note Teo1000). How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in a Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most importantly, by not appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous suggestion last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the American Nazi Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that: "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the mire of the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he had not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British public were not prepared to accept open Nazism yet; so the NF must "hide behind the Union Jack and phoney patriotic jargon until the time was ripe to go public with a mass Nazi movement" (John Tyndall quoted in Gable, 1991). Obviously, Tyndall was aware of the Zietgeist (The overall direction of social norms) in Britain at the time and realised that declaring themselves to be openly Nazi, would do more harm to their cause than good. Around that time, members of the NF stopped using the obviously Nazi sun-wheel symbol, and adopted the Union Jack as their most prominent badge. Various Nazi organisations throughout Europe have begun in this manner, using patriotism to get a foot in the door whilst maintaining good relations with other secretly, or openly, Nazi groups at home or abroad. We can see evident in the behaviour of neo-fascist outfits at least three of the four behavioural styles proposed by Moscovici (1976). The first two are Consistancy and Rigidity. A minority that remains consistant in it's argument is more likely to influence a majority, than one that is inconsistant. The Neo-Fascists remain undaunted in their convictions that events such as the holocaust did not happen, their racist views and especially their anti-Semitism have lead Nazi Revisionists such as David Irving, for who the BNP supply 'bodyguards', to publish articles and books in an attempt to rewrite a history that is against them. In BNP literature a study by none other than Hans Eysenck that appears to support the belief that whites are more intelligent than blacks, is constantly referred to without reference to criticisms of Eysencks methodology, or reference to counter-arguments or alternative interpretations of the data. Labov's (1970) study into 'Black English' is a good example of how scientists can interpret data incorrectly. Labov (1970) and Stewart (1970) both pointed out that many Afro-Americans speak a grammatically different form of English. Since IQ tests are administered in Standard English, the lower scores of Afro-Americans (which could be perceived as due to lower intelligence) are probably due to their different dialect. There are far more general arguments, especially in recent years, rejecting the validity of IQ tests and other psychometric testing altogether. Some psychologists, such as Gardener (1983), with his t
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip and fall upon your own dagger. It was me who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who published it and me who distributed it. Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff away. Richard B. MARK wrote: -Caveat Lector- Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they were published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" freely available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous increase in public awarenss. I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU claim them as your own. You are a Charlatan and a Fraud. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In particular regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a large number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K. (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2 and Alamaine). With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout Europe and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the presence of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September 1993, Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a council seat in East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he increased his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists as a bunch of skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than then on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs' does hold true for the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by small cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi revival is not just a mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996), but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority opinion (take note Teo1000). How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in a Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most importantly, by not appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous suggestion last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the American Nazi Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that: "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the mire of the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he had not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British public were not prepared to accept open Nazism yet; so the NF must "hide behind the Union Jack and phoney patriotic jargon until the time was ripe to go public with a mass Nazi movement" (John Tyndall quoted in Gable, 1991). Obviously, Tyndall was aware of the Zietgeist (The overall direction of social norms) in Britain at the time and realised that declaring themselves to be openly Nazi, would do more harm to their cause than good. Around that time, members of the NF stopped using the obviously Nazi sun-wheel symbol, and adopted the Union Jack as their most prominent badge. Various Nazi organisations throughout Europe have begun in this manner, using patriotism to get a foot in the door whilst maintaining good relations with other secretly, or openly, Nazi groups at home or abroad. We can see evident in the behaviour of neo-fascist outfits at least three of the four behavioural styles proposed by Moscovici (1976). The first two are Consistancy and Rigidity. A minority that remains consistant in it's argument is more likely to influence a majority, than one that is inconsistant. The Neo-Fascists remain undaunted in their convictions that events such as the holocaust did not happen, their racist views and especially their anti-Semitism have lead Nazi Revisionists such as David Irving, for who the BNP supply 'bodyguards', to publish articles and books in an attempt to rewrite a history that is against them. In BNP literature a study by none other than Hans Eysenck that appears to support the belief that whites are more intelligent than blacks, is constantly referred to without reference to criticisms of Eysencks methodology, or reference to counter-arguments or alternative interpretations of the data. Labov's (1970) study into 'Black English' is a good example of how scientists can interpret data incorrectly. Labov (1970) and Stewart (1970) both pointed out that many Afro-Americans speak a grammatically different form of English. Since IQ tests are administered in Standard English, the lower s
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- Wrong, wrong, wrong, Again you are falsely claiming credit for which you should not. The leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" was in fact written by my Good Friend, Alison Stalegrey, and I am sure she will have no reason not to begin proceedings for you claiming her work as your own, (As you did with Francis Dunnery's excellent paper "Anti-Statism - more than a state of mind" back in 1993). I do not wish to get into a personal battle on this list, however, if you continue to claim the hard work of others as that of your own, measures will have to be taken. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 16:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip and fall upon your own dagger. It was me who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who published it and me who distributed it. Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff away. Richard B. MARK wrote: -Caveat Lector- Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they were published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" freely available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous increase in public awarenss. I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU claim them as your own. You are a Charlatan and a Fraud. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In particular regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a large number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K. (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2 and Alamaine). With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout Europe and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the presence of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September 1993, Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a council seat in East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he increased his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists as a bunch of skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than then on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs' does hold true for the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by small cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi revival is not just a mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996), but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority opinion (take note Teo1000). How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in a Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most importantly, by not appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous suggestion last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the American Nazi Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that: "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the mire of the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he had not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British public were not prepared to accept open Nazism yet; so the NF must "hide behind the Union Jack and phoney patriotic jargon until the time was ripe to go public with a mass Nazi movement" (John Tyndall quoted in Gable, 1991). Obviously, Tyndall was aware of the Zietgeist (The overall direction of social norms) in Britain at the time and realised that declaring themselves to be openly Nazi, would do more harm to their cause than good. Around that time, members of the NF stopped using the obviously Nazi sun-wheel symbol, and adopted the Union Jack as their most prominent badge. Various Nazi organisations throughout Europe have begun in this manner, using patriotism to get a foot in the door whilst maintaining good relations with other secretly, or openly, Nazi groups at home or abroad. We can see evident in the behaviour of neo-fascist outfits at least three of the four behavioural styles proposed by Moscovici (1976). The first two are Consistancy and Rigidity. A minority that remains consistant in it's argument is more likely to influence a majority, than one that is inconsistant. The Neo-Fascists
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- Pure fluff and twaddle. MARK wrote: This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The complete text has been enclosed as a file. -Caveat Lector- Wrong, wrong, wrong, Again you are falsely claiming credit for which you should not. The leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" was in fact written by my Good Friend, Alison Stalegrey, and I am sure she will have no reason not to begin proceedings for you claiming her work as your own, (As you did with Francis Dunnery's excellent paper "Anti-Statism - more than a state of mind" back in 1993). I do not wish to get into a personal battle on this list, however, if you continue to claim the hard work of others as that of your own, measures will have to be taken. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 16:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip and fall upon your own dagger. It was me who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who published it and me who distributed it. Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff away. Richard B. MARK wrote: -Caveat Lector- Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they were published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" freely available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous increase in public awarenss. I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU claim them as your own. You are a Charlatan and a Fraud. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In particular regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a large number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K. (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2 and Alamaine). With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout Europe and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the presence of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September 1993, Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a council seat in East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he increased his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists as a bunch of skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than then on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs' does hold true for the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by small cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi revival is not just a mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996), but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority opinion (take note Teo1000). How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in a Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most importantly, by not appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous suggestion last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the American Nazi Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that: "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the mire of the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he had not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British public were not prepared to accept open Nazism yet; so the NF must "hide behind the Union Jack and phoney patriotic jargon until the time was ripe to go public with a mass Nazi movement" (John Tyndall quoted in Gable, 1991). Obviously, Tyndall was aware of the Zietgeist (The overall direction of social norms) in Britain at the time and realised that declaring themselves to be openly Nazi, would do more harm to their cause than good. Around that time, members of the NF stopped using the obviously Nazi sun-wheel symbol, and adopted the Union Jack as their most prominent badge. Various Nazi organisations throughout Europe have begun in this manner, using patriotism to get a foot in the door whilst maintaining good relations with other secretly, or openly, Nazi groups at home or abroad. We can see evident in the behaviour of neo-fascist outfits at least three of the four behavioural styles proposed by Moscovici (1976). The first two are Consistancy and Rig
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In particular regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a large number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K. (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2 and Alamaine). With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout Europe and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the presence of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. I still believe many of you on the list have a lot of catching up to do regarding the current resurgance of the Neo-nazis and Fascist ideals amongst todays society, and hope that we can build a strong, meaningful and hopefully effective discussion on this most essential of lists. Come on CTRL, pull your socks up!!! Richard B. Richard makes some good points as far as it goes. My criticism is that his examples of fascism are too one dimensional. He basically relates to "bottom up" fascism. What we are experiencing now in the good ole USA is "top down" fascism. A long term plan through a partnership between the political class (politico-paths) and the Corporate Elite to destroy individual freedom through Corporate Statism. Why? Simply for the economic benefit of the Elite and the sheer joy of power exercised by the political class. flw DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 2/2/99 10:14:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Neo-Nazi revival is not just a mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996), but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority opinion (take note Teo1000). I fail to see what you are asking me to take note of. This is nothing different from what I believe of the movement. Fascism has been alive and well for a long time. After W.W.II it had to go underground for a time but retained much of it's power covertly. Now fascists take on different labels and are using all of the resources that are available to any political party or other powerful group in order to sway opinion cause societal change and gain power. I can't really speak of Britain, but it is apparent that we have a strong fascist (Nazi) underground movement in the USA. What we see of "skinheads" and tattooed yahoos beating up gay men and marching in parades with the ridiculous KKK and other groups is only a small portion of the movement and it is put in the public limelight for a specific reason, ridicule. This way the more "reasonable" elements of the movement, three- piece-business-suit-wearing men with degrees, and "well thought out" plans for solving the "racial war/problem", and ideas to help us deal with the "criminal" element, and save us from the rising tide of immigration which is damaging to out "nationhood", are seen in a positive light and not associated with the fascism that is decried in popular media. Teo1000 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- You know, this whole thing takes me back to the time when I wrote "A Tale of Two Cities". It took quite a while to finish it, though, as I was busy with the Polio vaccine at the same time, as well as having just returned from walking on the moon. Of course, none of this compares to the work I had to do on "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band". That George Martin is a real douchebag. Well, I'd love to keep talking about this, but I have to go and accept my Oscar for directing "Saving Private Ryan" and my emmy for my writing on "Frasier". Richard -Original Message- From: MARK [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- Wrong, wrong, wrong, Again you are falsely claiming credit for which you should not. The leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" was in fact written by my Good Friend, Alison Stalegrey, and I am sure she will have no reason not to begin proceedings for you claiming her work as your own, (As you did with Francis Dunnery's excellent paper "Anti-Statism - more than a state of mind" back in 1993). I do not wish to get into a personal battle on this list, however, if you continue to claim the hard work of others as that of your own, measures will have to be taken. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 16:30 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- M.A.R.K. again, in your desperation to make me look foolish, you trip and fall upon your own dagger. It was me who wrote the 1992 leaflet 'A Nation Under Threat', me who published it and me who distributed it. Please can you add something to the discussion, not try and take stuff away. Richard B. MARK wrote: -Caveat Lector- Richard, how dare you claim these thoughts as your own, when they were published in the Anti-Fascist leaflet "A Nation Under Threat" freely available in the Tower Hamlets area since the BNP's horrendous increase in public awarenss. I agree unequivocally with these thoughts, however, how DARE YOU claim them as your own. You are a Charlatan and a Fraud. M.A.R.K. -Original Message- From: Source - Richard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 1999 14:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order -Caveat Lector- What i find most interesting with this current debate is the distinct lack of knowledge being displayed across the CTRL community. In particular regarding the rise of fascism in Britain (i know for sure we have a large number of UK members on this list including the outspoken M.A.R.K. (psuedonym)). I beg of you all to read my comments (particularly Teo1000, flw, J2 and Alamaine). With the re-emergence of Fascist and far-right parties throughout Europe and America, especially during the 1980's, we have been alerted to the presence of Racist and Fascist beliefs in our own country. In September 1993, Derek Beackon of the Nazi British National Party was elected to a council seat in East London. Despite being defeated at the next election, he increased his vote by a third. It would be a mistake to think of Neo-Fascists as a bunch of skinhead thugs picking on ethnic groups that they see as lower than then on the social ladder. The traditional stereotype of Nazi 'thugs' does hold true for the majority, but their actions are often organised and directed by small cliques of, intelligent and systematic individuals. The Neo-Nazi revival is not just a mish-mash of 'fascist filth' and 'racist scum' (ANL newsletter, 1996), but a highly organised and well orchestrated attempt to sway majority opinion (take note Teo1000). How do Neo-Fascist organisations attempt to win over the public in a Britain that is greatly opposed to them? Firstly, and most importantly, by not appearing to be Nazi in origin (unlike M.A.R.Ks ridiculous suggestion last week!!). In 1967, in a letter to William Pierce of the American Nazi Party, John Tyndall, then leader of the National Front said that: "The NF could not be openly Nazi because it would be stuck in the mire of the Second World War and the death camps". He went on to say how he had not abandoned his faith in Hitler or the Swastika, but the British public were not prepared to accept open Nazism yet; so the NF must "hide behind the Union Jack and phoney patriotic jargon until the time was ripe to go public with a mass Nazi movement" (John Tyndall quoted in Gable, 1991). Ob
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- Source - Richard wrote: I still believe many of you on the list have a lot of catching up to do regarding the current resurgance of the Neo-nazis and Fascist ideals amongst todays society, and hope that we can build a strong, meaningful and hopefully effective discussion on this most essential of lists. Come on CTRL, pull your socks up!!! As, I believe, you do as well. Who do you think is behind this movement and what is their purpose in pushing it? About two years ago I spent a great deal of time studying the question of whether or not the Holocaust happened as we are taught in the schools and media. I went at it as neutral as possible, realizing long before my studies began that we are lied to constantly. In fact, at the end of my studies I came to the conclusion that the Holocaust was not truthfully portrayed by our common history books. So, I guess you might call me a "revisionist". However, the anomalies that had lead many to doubt the whole genocide story lead me to believe that, in fact, that the British intelligence had known through their ability to break the German codes of details of the Holocaust from near its beginning. And, I believe that this has been one of the reasons why no debate on this subject is allowed. For it was obvious to me after a while that many details of the Holocaust which the deniers were bringing out could only be explained by the fact that British Intelligence had known from the beginning. I gave a speech at a meeting in Atlanta to a group called "Americans for Lawful Government" reporting my findings. It was well received and of those few members who had been leaning towards the denier's position, most saw the error of their arguments and renounced them and the rest stopped attending. During my speech I mentioned my belief that the British Intelligence had known of the systematic killings. Less then a month later AP verified my belief in the following report: Documents show Britain was aware of Holocaust Secret transcripts follow killings 'as they happened' May 19, 1997 Web posted at: 11:14 p.m. EDT (0314 GMT) LONDON (AP) -- Winston Churchill and other British leaders knew Nazi Germany was killing Jews from the first massacres in June 1941 to the final concentration camp gassings in 1945, according to intelligence documents released Monday. The previously classified transcripts of German police radio messages, intercepted by British code-breakers, show senior officials knew where Jews were being killed almost from day to day. As Hitler's Third Reich conquered most of Europe and marched into the Soviet Union, the transcripts document the executions that followed -- some involving just a few Jews and others tens of thousands. It has long been known that Allied leaders were aware of the genocide before it became widespread public knowledge. But the hundreds of pages of documents released Monday suggest senior wartime British officials had more information about the killing than previously believed. "What these records reveal is how much the British knew of the atrocities as they were happening," said John Fox, a lecturer in Jewish history and Holocaust studies at Jew's College in London. Britain was able to obtain great amounts of enemy material because it broke Germany's top-secret code -- nicknamed Enigma. The information was given only to Churchill and a few senior intelligence officials. Last fall, the U.S. National Security Agency declassified a handful of documents from the Public Record Office, the British government's archive. The records, which were loaned to the U.S. government in 1981 to aid in its war crimes investigation, revealed that the British knew the Nazis were systematically killing Jews in the Soviet Union as early as June 1941. That was more than a year earlier than previously acknowledged. It was not until December 17, 1942, that the
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 2/2/99 6:08:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And, I could find nothing in any of the Journals they carried about this revelation. The second question, of course, is why not? Something is very fishy about this whole thing. You would think that there would have been a lot more about it in the news then, for instance, the Nazi gold in Switzerland. Also, the documents should set the total number killed much more accurately then was possible previously. Any ideas? Howard Davis Well, as to why you could find nothing out about the allies knowledge of the Holocaust it seems to me to be perfectly obvious. They do not want to implicate themselves in the mass murder by allowing the fact that they knew what was going on to get out. It would show them guilty for complicity for not doing something about it at the time or at least denouncing the Germans and their genocidal efforts at the time. It also would explain Britains desire to give the Jews Palestine after the war as a sort of payoff. There is much more to the issue as well, I believe that there were many people in both the American political machine and military, as well as in Britain who saw nothing wrong with the wholesale slaughter and thus did nothing to bring it to light until later when it served their purposes. The fault for what happened is not only Germany's that's for sure. Teo1000 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- flw wrote: -Caveat Lector- -- What is interesting is that European Fascists also claimed "victimhood". Derogation of Individual Freedom in the name of Victimhood is a time honored Fascist Rite. "Fascism ends in concentration camps, it does not begin with them". flw A friend of mine said the exact same thing to me today. He said that the only difference between the US today and Nazi Germany is that they got to wear "really cool uniforms" and we don't. The Fourth Reich is alive and well in the good old US of A. Teo1000 This is only true for some minorities and political views. Otherwise, the above statements are way exaggerated as far as most Americans are concerned. J2 Hmm. Many Germans thought the same thing in the early 1930's. flw Hey. I'm not defending fascists. I'm just saying that there is too much exaggeration going on here. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-01-31 16:42:46 EST, you write: But none of this is real democracy. The writer said so himself earlier.It's Fascism diguised as democracy. Fascism is Capitalism plus state power. Joshua2 I don't think so. Fascism = Communism = Statism. There is no effective difference between Fascism, Communism. They are both Statism. The Communists replaced the Owner Elite with the Party Elite. The Fascists left the Owner Elite but made them subservient to The Party. Hitler's plan was for The Party to then replace the Owner Elite with the Party Elite. WWII intervened. In the US we have the Owner Elite allied with the Polito Paths. One supplies money, the other supplies them services. Smiley Face Fascism/ Corporate Socialism. Suits and ties rather then Brownshirts or Red Banners. People broken by the IRS rather then the Gestapo. Why bother to put them in camps, just take their money, businesses or professions. They will then become Nonpersons. Sad shells that put the fear of God (The Govt?) in others who have politically incorrect thoughts. The really obstreperous ones? Gas and burn them. They are only "cultists." Show it live on CNN. The Attorney General will proudly take credit for the massacre and "the media" will applaud her. God Bless America! flw I agree 99% with you flw. Who gives a shit about the other 1%. Gavin. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 2/1/99 4:46:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A friend of mine said the exact same thing to me today. He said that the only difference between the US today and Nazi Germany is that they got to wear "really cool uniforms" and we don't. The Fourth Reich is alive and well in the good old US of A. Teo1000 This is only true for some minorities and political views. Otherwise, the above statements are way exaggerated as far as most Americans are concerned. J2 This might be true in an operative sense, but I do believe that we are just one step away from tyranny. There IS much exaggeration on both sides of this issue; the "Patriots" say we live in an oppressive Nazi regime where we have no freedoms left, while the "left" tells us that all is well on the home front. The truth is in between somewhere, BUT IMO it is leaning heavily in the direction of fascistic "Nazi-like" tyranny. We DO have a measure of freedom left to us, but anyone who examines things can see that those freedoms that we do have are dwindling under the oppressiveness of national law and statute, as well as corporate constructs which are supported by the government in a very fascistic way I might add. So the statement may be exaggeration but not much IMO. Teo1000 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- But none of this is real democracy. The writer said so himself earlier.It's Fascism diguised as democracy. Fascism is Capitalism plus state power. Joshua2 I don't think so. Fascism = Communism = Statism. There is no effective difference between Fascism, Communism. They are both Statism. The Communists replaced the Owner Elite with the Party Elite. The Fascists left the Owner Elite but made them subservient to The Party. Hitler's plan was for The Party to then replace the Owner Elite with the Party Elite. WWII intervened. In the US we have the Owner Elite allied with the Polito Paths. One supplies money, the other supplies them services. Smiley Face Fascism/ Corporate Socialism. Suits and ties rather then Brownshirts or Red Banners. People broken by the IRS rather then the Gestapo. Why bother to put them in camps, just take their money, businesses or professions. They will then become Nonpersons. Sad shells that put the fear of God (The Govt?) in others who have politically incorrect thoughts. The really obstreperous ones? Gas and burn them. They are only "cultists." Show it live on CNN. The Attorney General will proudly take credit for the massacre and "the media" will applaud her. God Bless America! flw DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- I think that this is a very informative post, but it comes to some phony conclusions. -- J2 - Mike Moxley wrote: -Caveat Lector- Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order" Madeleine Albright Makes it Plain On January 18th the San Francisco Chronicle carried a story, originally published in the Los Angeles Times, detailing the plans of U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to establish "a new international order, one that would revamp existing global institutions and spawn entirely new ones." According to the L.A. Times, Albright is referring to "the new order" as a kind of "international democracy club" where the U.S. would be the "organizing principle." "The 21st century ... ought to be the century of democracy," Albright told the L.A. Times. "We're going to be putting an awful lot more emphasis on organizing the democracies, working with them ... so they can work with each other better." Only those who understand what kind of "democracy" she's talking about know what this means for the world. In case the reader fails to grasp the meaning behind Albright's government-speak, we will translate. "Organize" means nothing less than "control", and this "new international order" means "world wide control." Albright said that "we [the foreign policy establishment] are the organizing principle." Other nations will "either organize with us or against us," she declared, meaning that those nations who won't play ball will be branded as pariahs and ostracized by the international community. When Albright says "democracy" she really means "doing it my way." Fascism in Democracy's Clothing In the minds of many well-meaning folks "democracy" is synonymous with government of, by, and for "the people", self-determination, rule of law and an open society. Often President Clinton claims to be working "for the American people," as do many in the U.S. Congress. This is the illusion of democracy, but the reality is far different. This reality was aptly defined by Noam Chomsky, a self-defined Socialist and professor at M.I.T. He wrote: "Democracy," in the United States rhetoric refers to a system of governance in which elite elements based in the business community control the state by virtue of their dominance of the private society, while the population observes quietly. So understood, democracy is a system of elite decision and public ratification, as in the United States itself. Correspondingly, popular involvement in the formation of public policy is considered a serious threat. It is not a step towards democracy; rather it constitutes a 'crisis of democracy' that must be overcome. (Noam Chomsky, On Power and Ideology, 1987 The evidence is overwhelming that Albright's "new international order" will not be much different from Hitler's "neue ordnung" and Mussolini's "ordine nuovo." It is the amalgamation of government and big business, as well as state direction of the economy that defines fascism, and, when Albright says "democracy" she really means "fascism" -- the current form of government in America today. So far, so good. But. Comparing the situation to Nazi Germany doesn't work. It doesn't work because the WWII fascists were NATIONALISTS looking for empire. The globalists are anti nationalist elitists. Perhaps it was their dedication to Western tradition that led our forefathers to mount the Roman fasces behind the Speaker's chair in the U.S. House of Representatives. Made up of rods bound about an ax, this ancient symbol has appropriately become the trademark of modern fascism, "a system of government characterized by dictatorship, belligerent nationalism, and racism, militarism, etc..." (Webster's New World Dictionary) This "binding up", or as Albright puts it, "organizing" of the world's democracies, reveals the truth about her definition of democracy. The new order will be totalitarian, on the global scale as it is on the local, which indicates what is ahead for the world if the 21st century becomes "the century of democracy" as Albright and the rest of the foreign policy cabal would like. Hitler solidified his political power by joining an alliance with the industrialists of Germany. In turn, he protected the large corporations and extended them favorable treatment. Hitler reigned in Nazi radicals who sought to topple big business in what was called "the second revolution." On July 1, 1933, Hitler told his S.A. and S.S. leaders: "I will suppress every attempt to disturb the existing order as ruthlessly as I will deal with the so-called second revolution, which would lead only to chaos." (William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, 1950) The marriage of money and demagoguery was consummated in Hitler's Third Reich and Mussolini's Italy. While wealth and political power have always colluded to some degree, there comes a point where apathy, pseudo-tolerance and ignorance
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/30/99 1:01:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that this is a very informative post, but it comes to some phony conclusions. -- J2 - Mike Moxley wrote: -Caveat Lector- Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order" Madeleine Albright Makes it Plai Quick, Joshua II, tell me what are the phony conclusions. I want to feel better about things. Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- -Original Message- From: Mike Moxley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 2:50 AM Subject: Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order" Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order" Madeleine Albright Makes it Plain On January 18th the San Francisco Chronicle carried a story, originally published in the Los Angeles Times, detailing the plans of U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to establish "a new international order, one that would revamp existing global institutions and spawn entirely new ones (SNIP).. Mike is so right. The difference between 1930's European Fascism and present day US Fascism is the lack of military style uniforms. The American Fascist leaders wear suit and ties and rant about Group Rghts. Their shock troops wear jeans and sneakers, not black shirts. What is interesting is that European Fascists also claimed "victimhood". Derogation of Individual Freedom in the name of Victimhood is a time honored Fascist Rite. "Fascism ends in concentration camps, it does not begin with them". flw DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Fascism On The Move Toward New Order
-Caveat Lector- Fascism On The Move Toward "New Order" Madeleine Albright Makes it Plain On January 18th the San Francisco Chronicle carried a story, originally published in the Los Angeles Times, detailing the plans of U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to establish "a new international order, one that would revamp existing global institutions and spawn entirely new ones." According to the L.A. Times, Albright is referring to "the new order" as a kind of "international democracy club" where the U.S. would be the "organizing principle." "The 21st century ... ought to be the century of democracy," Albright told the L.A. Times. "We're going to be putting an awful lot more emphasis on organizing the democracies, working with them ... so they can work with each other better." Only those who understand what kind of "democracy" she's talking about know what this means for the world. In case the reader fails to grasp the meaning behind Albright's government-speak, we will translate. "Organize" means nothing less than "control", and this "new international order" means "world wide control." Albright said that "we [the foreign policy establishment] are the organizing principle." Other nations will "either organize with us or against us," she declared, meaning that those nations who won't play ball will be branded as pariahs and ostracized by the international community. When Albright says "democracy" she really means "doing it my way." Fascism in Democracy's Clothing In the minds of many well-meaning folks "democracy" is synonymous with government of, by, and for "the people", self-determination, rule of law and an open society. Often President Clinton claims to be working "for the American people," as do many in the U.S. Congress. This is the illusion of democracy, but the reality is far different. This reality was aptly defined by Noam Chomsky, a self-defined Socialist and professor at M.I.T. He wrote: "Democracy," in the United States rhetoric refers to a system of governance in which elite elements based in the business community control the state by virtue of their dominance of the private society, while the population observes quietly. So understood, democracy is a system of elite decision and public ratification, as in the United States itself. Correspondingly, popular involvement in the formation of public policy is considered a serious threat. It is not a step towards democracy; rather it constitutes a 'crisis of democracy' that must be overcome. (Noam Chomsky, On Power and Ideology, 1987) The evidence is overwhelming that Albright's "new international order" will not be much different from Hitler's "neue ordnung" and Mussolini's "ordine nuovo." It is the amalgamation of government and big business, as well as state direction of the economy that defines fascism, and, when Albright says "democracy" she really means "fascism" -- the current form of government in America today. Perhaps it was their dedication to Western tradition that led our forefathers to mount the Roman fasces behind the Speaker's chair in the U.S. House of Representatives. Made up of rods bound about an ax, this ancient symbol has appropriately become the trademark of modern fascism, "a system of government characterized by dictatorship, belligerent nationalism, and racism, militarism, etc..." (Webster's New World Dictionary) This "binding up", or as Albright puts it, "organizing" of the world's democracies, reveals the truth about her definition of democracy. The new order will be totalitarian, on the global scale as it is on the local, which indicates what is ahead for the world if the 21st century becomes "the century of democracy" as Albright and the rest of the foreign policy cabal would like. Hitler solidified his political power by joining an alliance with the industrialists of Germany. In turn, he protected the large corporations and extended them favorable treatment. Hitler reigned in Nazi radicals who sought to topple big business in what was called "the second revolution." On July 1, 1933, Hitler told his S.A. and S.S. leaders: "I will suppress every attempt to disturb the existing order as ruthlessly as I will deal with the so-called second revolution, which would lead only to chaos." (William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, 1950) The marriage of money and demagoguery was consummated in Hitler's Third Reich and Mussolini's Italy. While wealth and political power have always colluded to some degree, there comes a point where apathy, pseudo-tolerance and ignorance binds the will of the masses to a fanatical idea that brings their destruction. It is this subjective, enervated, and brain-dead mental state that led the Germans to embrace the Nazi regime. "The masses are like an animal that obeys its instincts," Hitler observed of the Germans. "They do not reach conclusions by reasoning." (Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels, p.47) This same collective state-of-mind is what the Hitlers of
