Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty]
-Caveat Lector- nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike Moxley wrote: -Caveat Lector- Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty by Mike Moxley Libertarians claim to be the promoters and defenders of Liberty in the truest sense of the intentions of the founding fathers of our nation. Is this so? To the Libertarian, the ULTIMATE VALUE of Libertarianism is Liberty, rather than Liberty being the result of a moral government of, by, and for a moral people. Up until this point Moxley has it right. The rest is crap. The morality being based in religious principle. The founders knew that morality could not exist outside of religious principle: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."-John Adams That was his opinion. The founders knew how corrosive was the power of organized religion and always tried to keep it weak in regard to the state while allowing individual use of religious addiction to supernatural nonsense. "The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. See http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/ Bob = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty
-Caveat Lector- Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty by Mike Moxley Libertarians claim to be the promoters and defenders of Liberty in the truest sense of the intentions of the founding fathers of our nation. Is this so? To the Libertarian, the ULTIMATE VALUE of Libertarianism is Liberty, rather than Liberty being the result of a moral government of, by, and for a moral people. The morality being based in religious principle. The founders knew that morality could not exist outside of religious principle: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."-John Adams "Our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits, they believed, cannot safely be entrusted on any other foundation than religious principle, not any government secure which is not supported by moral habits Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens." - Daniel Webster We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams, Oct.11, 1798 Address to the military "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles." -George Washington While the Libertarians have a form of morality as in their oft quoted: "Our liberties stop at another's nose", the libertarians lack of a moral STANDARD causes them to overshoot the nose and land one right between the eyes of another. In other words, because of a lack of a moral standard, 100 Libertarians have 100 different ideas just exactly where your nose starts. So what religious principle is this American morality based in? Well, who were the fathers and grandfathers of our revolutionary founders? The pilgrims and men such as Smith, Raleigh, William Penn. The morals of these men came from the religious principles set forth in the Holy Bible. They dedicated this land to the God of the Bible. To wit: Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. -Mayflower Compact, 1620 The founders spoke of the morality of the Christian faith. The writings, speeches, and quotes of the founders show that the Bible was their source of morality. To the founders liberty was from God and was a direct result of living that morality and believing, despite overwhelming adversity, that God would bring them to victory and to true liberty. They actually believed that "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty" -II Corinthians 3:17. Proof? History will also afford the frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition, c. and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern. -Ben Franklin "I shall now entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for "there is no salvation in any other", [Acts 4:12]. If you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish." -John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence "My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!" -Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence "I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and
Re: [CTRL] Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty
-Caveat Lector- Dear List, Just re*subs*rib*d to CTRL shortly ago and wish to comment on Mike Moxley's post, but first I wanna tell ya'll that last Sunday, a week ago today my computer crashed. Needless to say I lost everything :( One of the things I was researching for was sound information regarding Y2K. I had found several websites with good info but when the crash came I lost it all. I had no backup, don't even know how backup is done for I am quite ignorant about computers, but trying to learn, and am having to gather info from scratch again. I wish to ask a favor of you, please. If any of you may know of websites with sound information about the Y2K thingy, would you please let me know? I would be ever so grateful. Thanking you in advance. Now, about Mr. Moxley's postSir, just wanna say I enjoyed so much reading your most informative note on Libertarians and it's one that I shall print up to keep if you don't mind. I appreciate your taking the time to inform us about this. And, tooall those marvelous quotes of our Founding Fathers you submitted are little treasures as far as I'm concerned. Thank you again. God bless you. Southron Regards, Linda of the Palmetto State -Caveat Lector- Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty by Mike Moxley [SNIP] DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty
-Caveat Lector- Mike Moxley wrote: -Caveat Lector- Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty by Mike Moxley Libertarians claim to be the promoters and defenders of Liberty in the truest sense of the intentions of the founding fathers of our nation. Is this so? To the Libertarian, the ULTIMATE VALUE of Libertarianism is Liberty, rather than Liberty being the result of a moral government of, by, and for a moral people. Up until this point Moxley has it right. The rest is crap. The morality being based in religious principle. The founders knew that morality could not exist outside of religious principle: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."-John Adams That was his opinion. The founders knew how corrosive was the power of organized religion and always tried to keep it weak in regard to the state while allowing individual use of religious addiction to supernatural nonsense. "Our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits, they believed, cannot safely be entrusted on any other foundation than religious principle, not any government secure which is not supported by moral habits Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens." - Daniel Webster Can they be good citizens if they are not Christians? Can they be moral if they are not Christians? What is moral anyway? We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams, Oct.11, 1798 Address to the military Hey Moxley, how do you feel about Capitalism? How does it fit into your Christian morality as expressed above? "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles." -George Washington This from a man who got to be the richest man in the country by stealing the land he promised as payment to his soldiers for fighting a revolution of the rich. While the Libertarians have a form of morality as in their oft quoted: "Our liberties stop at another's nose", the libertarians lack of a moral STANDARD causes them to overshoot the nose and land one right between the eyes of another. In other words, because of a lack of a moral standard, 100 Libertarians have 100 different ideas just exactly where your nose starts. You got that right. So what religious principle is this American morality based in? Well, who were the fathers and grandfathers of our revolutionary founders? The pilgrims and men such as Smith, Raleigh, William Penn. The morals of these men came from the religious principles set forth in the Holy Bible. They dedicated this land to the God of the Bible. To wit: Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. -Mayflower Compact, 1620 The founders spoke of the morality of the Christian faith. The writings, speeches, and quotes of the founders show that the Bible was their source of morality. To the founders liberty was from God and was a direct result of living that morality and believing, despite overwhelming adversity, that God would bring them to victory and to true liberty. They actually believed that "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty" -II Corinthians 3:17. So a bunch of superstitious bigots steal a continent in the name of Christian morality. That's typical. Proof? History will also afford the frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition, c. and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.
Re: [CTRL] Libertarians: The Cult of Liberty
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/17/99 11:51:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is the Libertarians ultimate value really even Liberty? It seems that what they really seek is selfish gratification of various vices and the freedom to partake in those vices. This is NOT liberty but rather licentiousness and avarice. This is what happens when freedom is not tempered by virtue and a moral standard. You got that right. Liberty is not liberty if defined by those who seek to limit the bahavior of those who do not harm or take. THAT is often referred to as not having a life of one's own. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
