Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- One would've hoped that even old metaphors at core held some "truth" so age would not diminish them because the substance of them is derived from some innate human wisdom and experience. If we discard them as unworthy husks merely because of age, do we not also discard our own humanity? Whilst our only certainty seems to be our uncertainly, peopleseem struck with the perennial search for something akin to utopia amid constant societal flux. There does appear at core some eternal verities, ideas of right andwrong which we appeal to and express throughout all time. For example, if one expects of others to treat them in a certain manner, it seems inconsistent to treat them in a way you do not wish to be treated yourself. Dave. The key question is how to balance the need for the good of the community against the need to enhance the freedom of the individual. It is a difficult line to walk, especially because it is shifting constantly. Not only constantly, but at an ever increasing rate. That is why we cannot rely solely on some 5000 year old book and 1 year old metaphors to define what is or is not moral. A HREF=""www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=""Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=""ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- http://stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/263AD85EB409B D2786256CA40076DBA4?OpenDocumentHeadline=Nuns+as+sex ual+victims+get+little+notice Nuns as sexual victims get little notice By Bill Smith Of the Post-Dispatch 01/04/2003 02:40 PM Already shaken by a yearlong sex abuse scandal involving priests and minors, the Roman Catholic Church has yet to face another critical challenge - how to help thousands of nuns who say they have been sexually victimized. A national survey, completed in 1996 but intentionally never publicized, estimates that a minimum of 34,000 Catholic nuns, or about 40 percent of all nuns in the United States, have suffered some form of sexual trauma. Some of that sexual abuse, exploitation or harassment has come at the hands of priests and other nuns in the church, the report said. The survey was conducted by researchers at St. Louis University and was paid for, in part, by several orders of Catholic nuns. The study, recently obtained by the Post-Dispatch, indicates that the victimization often has had devastating psychological effects on the women. Many of the nuns said they were left with feelings of anger, shame, anxiety and depression. Some said it made them consider leaving religious life, and a few said they had attempted suicide. These women have been the stalwarts of the church for centuries, and a significant percentage of them have been victimized as a result of the structure of the very institution to which they have dedicated their lives, said study co-author John T. Chibnall, a research psychologist and associate professor at St. Louis University. Another of the researchers, Ann Wolf, said she believes it is vital that the Catholic Church recognize the problem. The bishops appear to be only looking at the issue of child sexual abuse, but the problem is bigger than that, Wolf said. Catholic sisters are being violated, in their ministries, at work, in pastoral counseling. A spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said the group was unaware of the St. Louis University study on nuns and its members have not addressed the issue. Officials with local orders of nuns who participated in the study say they remain concerned but have made no changes as a result of the report. The survey is the only national scientific study dealing with the sexual victimization of nuns in the Catholic Church, according to its researchers. Despite the scope of its findings several years ago, no further studies have been done, they say. The survey also solicited comments - many of them poignant - from the nuns who were questioned. Of the more than 1,100 surveys returned to the university, several included brief, personal stories from women who said they had been targeted. One woman wrote that after a priest fondled one of her breasts during confession, she remained so upset that she did not return to confession for the next 18 years. Another wrote that as a young girl, her uncle, who also was a priest, insisted on touching holy oil to her genital area to keep me safe while dating. Later, her superiors forced her to attend religious retreats with the same uncle, she said. Still another wrote that a priest-therapist treating her for severe depression encouraged her to become involved in sexual experimentation. The woman said she later began a relationship with another nun. Several of the women said such research was long overdue. Thanks for taking the time to admit there is a problem in this area, wrote one. Best wishes. God bless. Study is kept quiet Findings of the study were published in two religious research journals in the spring and winter of 1998 but have never been reported by the mainstream press. Review for Religious, published at St. Louis University, printed a summary of the survey results in its May-June 1998 issue. Review of Religious Research, an academic journal published by the Religious Research Association, printed the full results in December of that year. Both are respected journals with limited circulations. Chibnall said researchers agreed not to prepare a press release about the findings because a national women's Catholic group, Leadership Conference of Women Religious, believed that the information would be sensationalized. It was like this: 'We don't wash our dirty laundry in public; we'll take care of it,' Chibnall said. Paul N. Duckro, the St. Louis University professor who headed the survey team, said researchers guaranteed religious communities that we would not handle this in any way that sought publicity. The two publications chosen to report the results, Duckro said, were chosen carefully to get information to the people who needed it but not out in front of everybody's eyes. But a former Catholic priest who has said he was sexually abused as a boy by three different priests said last week that he believes it is crucial to get the results of the St. Louis University survey to the public. Christopher Dixon,
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- What's the best way to get a nun pregnant? Dress her as an altar boy. on 01/05/03 10:42 AM, klewis at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- http://stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/263AD85EB409B D2786256CA40076DBA4?OpenDocumentHeadline=Nuns+as+sex ual+victims+get+little+notice Nuns as sexual victims get little notice By Bill Smith Of the Post-Dispatch 01/04/2003 02:40 PM Already shaken by a yearlong sex abuse scandal involving priests and minors, the Roman Catholic Church has yet to face another critical challenge - how to help thousands of nuns who say they have been sexually victimized. A national survey, completed in 1996 but intentionally never publicized, estimates that a minimum of 34,000 Catholic nuns, or about 40 percent of all nuns in the United States, have suffered some form of sexual trauma. Some of that sexual abuse, exploitation or harassment has come at the hands of priests and other nuns in the church, the report said. The survey was conducted by researchers at St. Louis University and was paid for, in part, by several orders of Catholic nuns. The study, recently obtained by the Post-Dispatch, indicates that the victimization often has had devastating psychological effects on the women. Many of the nuns said they were left with feelings of anger, shame, anxiety and depression. Some said it made them consider leaving religious life, and a few said they had attempted suicide. These women have been the stalwarts of the church for centuries, and a significant percentage of them have been victimized as a result of the structure of the very institution to which they have dedicated their lives, said study co-author John T. Chibnall, a research psychologist and associate professor at St. Louis University. Another of the researchers, Ann Wolf, said she believes it is vital that the Catholic Church recognize the problem. The bishops appear to be only looking at the issue of child sexual abuse, but the problem is bigger than that, Wolf said. Catholic sisters are being violated, in their ministries, at work, in pastoral counseling. A spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said the group was unaware of the St. Louis University study on nuns and its members have not addressed the issue. Officials with local orders of nuns who participated in the study say they remain concerned but have made no changes as a result of the report. The survey is the only national scientific study dealing with the sexual victimization of nuns in the Catholic Church, according to its researchers. Despite the scope of its findings several years ago, no further studies have been done, they say. The survey also solicited comments - many of them poignant - from the nuns who were questioned. Of the more than 1,100 surveys returned to the university, several included brief, personal stories from women who said they had been targeted. One woman wrote that after a priest fondled one of her breasts during confession, she remained so upset that she did not return to confession for the next 18 years. Another wrote that as a young girl, her uncle, who also was a priest, insisted on touching holy oil to her genital area to keep me safe while dating. Later, her superiors forced her to attend religious retreats with the same uncle, she said. Still another wrote that a priest-therapist treating her for severe depression encouraged her to become involved in sexual experimentation. The woman said she later began a relationship with another nun. Several of the women said such research was long overdue. Thanks for taking the time to admit there is a problem in this area, wrote one. Best wishes. God bless. Study is kept quiet Findings of the study were published in two religious research journals in the spring and winter of 1998 but have never been reported by the mainstream press. Review for Religious, published at St. Louis University, printed a summary of the survey results in its May-June 1998 issue. Review of Religious Research, an academic journal published by the Religious Research Association, printed the full results in December of that year. Both are respected journals with limited circulations. Chibnall said researchers agreed not to prepare a press release about the findings because a national women's Catholic group, Leadership Conference of Women Religious, believed that the information would be sensationalized. It was like this: 'We don't wash our dirty laundry in public; we'll take care of it,' Chibnall said. Paul N. Duckro, the St. Louis University professor who headed the survey team, said researchers guaranteed religious communities that we would not handle this in any way that sought publicity. The two publications chosen to report the results, Duckro said, were chosen carefully to get information to the people who needed it but not out in front of everybody's
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- Thew, you sometimes respond like a very clever 17 year old who thinks he has the entire picture when no one else has seen what is going on. You do the Jewish community no service with your ignorant comments. Think before you write. -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice -Caveat Lector- What's the best way to get a nun pregnant? Dress her as an altar boy. on 01/05/03 10:42 AM, klewis at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- http://stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/263AD85EB409B D2786256CA40076DBA4?OpenDocumentHeadline=Nuns+as+sex ual+victims+get+little+notice Nuns as sexual victims get little notice By Bill Smith Of the Post-Dispatch 01/04/2003 02:40 PM Already shaken by a yearlong sex abuse scandal involving priests and minors, the Roman Catholic Church has yet to face another critical challenge - how to help thousands of nuns who say they have been sexually victimized. A national survey, completed in 1996 but intentionally never publicized, estimates that a minimum of 34,000 Catholic nuns, or about 40 percent of all nuns in the United States, have suffered some form of sexual trauma. Some of that sexual abuse, exploitation or harassment has come at the hands of priests and other nuns in the church, the report said. The survey was conducted by researchers at St. Louis University and was paid for, in part, by several orders of Catholic nuns. The study, recently obtained by the Post-Dispatch, indicates that the victimization often has had devastating psychological effects on the women. Many of the nuns said they were left with feelings of anger, shame, anxiety and depression. Some said it made them consider leaving religious life, and a few said they had attempted suicide. These women have been the stalwarts of the church for centuries, and a significant percentage of them have been victimized as a result of the structure of the very institution to which they have dedicated their lives, said study co-author John T. Chibnall, a research psychologist and associate professor at St. Louis University. Another of the researchers, Ann Wolf, said she believes it is vital that the Catholic Church recognize the problem. The bishops appear to be only looking at the issue of child sexual abuse, but the problem is bigger than that, Wolf said. Catholic sisters are being violated, in their ministries, at work, in pastoral counseling. A spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said the group was unaware of the St. Louis University study on nuns and its members have not addressed the issue. Officials with local orders of nuns who participated in the study say they remain concerned but have made no changes as a result of the report. The survey is the only national scientific study dealing with the sexual victimization of nuns in the Catholic Church, according to its researchers. Despite the scope of its findings several years ago, no further studies have been done, they say. The survey also solicited comments - many of them poignant - from the nuns who were questioned. Of the more than 1,100 surveys returned to the university, several included brief, personal stories from women who said they had been targeted. One woman wrote that after a priest fondled one of her breasts during confession, she remained so upset that she did not return to confession for the next 18 years. Another wrote that as a young girl, her uncle, who also was a priest, insisted on touching holy oil to her genital area to keep me safe while dating. Later, her superiors forced her to attend religious retreats with the same uncle, she said. Still another wrote that a priest-therapist treating her for severe depression encouraged her to become involved in sexual experimentation. The woman said she later began a relationship with another nun. Several of the women said such research was long overdue. Thanks for taking the time to admit there is a problem in this area, wrote one. Best wishes. God bless. Study is kept quiet Findings of the study were published in two religious research journals in the spring and winter of 1998 but have never been reported by the mainstream press. Review for Religious, published at St. Louis University, printed a summary of the survey results in its May-June 1998 issue. Review of Religious Research, an academic journal published by the Religious Research Association, printed the full results in December of that year. Both are respected journals with limited circulations. Chibnall said researchers agreed not to prepare a press release about the findings because a national women's Catholic group, Leadership Conference of Women Religious, believed that the information would
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- Funny - I feel the same way quite often when you post - like last week's the Jews will do whatever they want comment. More to the point - It's a joke son - you missed it. on 01/05/03 11:02 AM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Thew, you sometimes respond like a very clever 17 year old who thinks he has the entire picture when no one else has seen what is going on. You do the Jewish community no service with your ignorant comments. Think before you write. -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 9:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice -Caveat Lector- What's the best way to get a nun pregnant? Dress her as an altar boy. on 01/05/03 10:42 AM, klewis at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- http://stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/263AD85EB409B D2786256CA40076DBA4?OpenDocumentHeadline=Nuns+as+sex ual+victims+get+little+notice Nuns as sexual victims get little notice By Bill Smith Of the Post-Dispatch 01/04/2003 02:40 PM Already shaken by a yearlong sex abuse scandal involving priests and minors, the Roman Catholic Church has yet to face another critical challenge - how to help thousands of nuns who say they have been sexually victimized. A national survey, completed in 1996 but intentionally never publicized, estimates that a minimum of 34,000 Catholic nuns, or about 40 percent of all nuns in the United States, have suffered some form of sexual trauma. Some of that sexual abuse, exploitation or harassment has come at the hands of priests and other nuns in the church, the report said. The survey was conducted by researchers at St. Louis University and was paid for, in part, by several orders of Catholic nuns. The study, recently obtained by the Post-Dispatch, indicates that the victimization often has had devastating psychological effects on the women. Many of the nuns said they were left with feelings of anger, shame, anxiety and depression. Some said it made them consider leaving religious life, and a few said they had attempted suicide. These women have been the stalwarts of the church for centuries, and a significant percentage of them have been victimized as a result of the structure of the very institution to which they have dedicated their lives, said study co-author John T. Chibnall, a research psychologist and associate professor at St. Louis University. Another of the researchers, Ann Wolf, said she believes it is vital that the Catholic Church recognize the problem. The bishops appear to be only looking at the issue of child sexual abuse, but the problem is bigger than that, Wolf said. Catholic sisters are being violated, in their ministries, at work, in pastoral counseling. A spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said the group was unaware of the St. Louis University study on nuns and its members have not addressed the issue. Officials with local orders of nuns who participated in the study say they remain concerned but have made no changes as a result of the report. The survey is the only national scientific study dealing with the sexual victimization of nuns in the Catholic Church, according to its researchers. Despite the scope of its findings several years ago, no further studies have been done, they say. The survey also solicited comments - many of them poignant - from the nuns who were questioned. Of the more than 1,100 surveys returned to the university, several included brief, personal stories from women who said they had been targeted. One woman wrote that after a priest fondled one of her breasts during confession, she remained so upset that she did not return to confession for the next 18 years. Another wrote that as a young girl, her uncle, who also was a priest, insisted on touching holy oil to her genital area to keep me safe while dating. Later, her superiors forced her to attend religious retreats with the same uncle, she said. Still another wrote that a priest-therapist treating her for severe depression encouraged her to become involved in sexual experimentation. The woman said she later began a relationship with another nun. Several of the women said such research was long overdue. Thanks for taking the time to admit there is a problem in this area, wrote one. Best wishes. God bless. Study is kept quiet Findings of the study were published in two religious research journals in the spring and winter of 1998 but have never been reported by the mainstream press. Review for Religious, published at St. Louis University, printed a summary of the survey results in its May-June 1998 issue. Review of Religious Research, an academic journal published by the Religious Research Association, printed the full results in December of that year. Both
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- Thew, This is not the time to joke. Unless you have been out of the country, you should know that the Jews are being pitted against the Christians and the Christians against the Jews at many levels. Every joke adds to the problem. The New Agers will pick up the banner of People Who Love Each Other. Both Jews and Christians who refuse to compromise their moral beliefs are being demonized, even if these beliefs are not being pushed in the political arena. The key word is moral here. In the New Age agenda, that which causes separation is considered evil. Where will you draw the line as to which moral beliefs you are willing to compromise? Don't look to the Christians. Find out what the moral beliefs of New Agers are and ask yourself if that is where you want to go, because New Age is against Jews and Christians. Your messages say you are anti-religion. Are you pro-New Age thinking? -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice -Caveat Lector- Funny - I feel the same way quite often when you post - like last week's the Jews will do whatever they want comment. More to the point - It's a joke son - you missed it. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- Guess what I AM anti-religion. Get a grip. BTW - laughter - the ability to find humor, even in the darkest of days is the highest of human virtues. Embrace the cosmic goof. on 01/05/03 11:40 AM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Thew, This is not the time to joke. Unless you have been out of the country, you should know that the Jews are being pitted against the Christians and the Christians against the Jews at many levels. Every joke adds to the problem. The New Agers will pick up the banner of People Who Love Each Other. Both Jews and Christians who refuse to compromise their moral beliefs are being demonized, even if these beliefs are not being pushed in the political arena. The key word is moral here. In the New Age agenda, that which causes separation is considered evil. Where will you draw the line as to which moral beliefs you are willing to compromise? Don't look to the Christians. Find out what the moral beliefs of New Agers are and ask yourself if that is where you want to go, because New Age is against Jews and Christians. Your messages say you are anti-religion. Are you pro-New Age thinking? -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice -Caveat Lector- Funny - I feel the same way quite often when you post - like last week's the Jews will do whatever they want comment. More to the point - It's a joke son - you missed it. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om - -- --- - You should view the world as a conspiracy run by a very closely-knit group of nearly omnipotent people, and you should think of those people as yourself and your friends. --Robert Anton Wilson NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- I don't find laughter where the future of Jews and Judaism are concerned. I know you are anti-religion; that is obvious. Where do you stand with regard to morality? Since you are presenting yourself as a defender of Jews and since Judaism and Jews cannot be separated, what do you stand for, not just what you stand against? I ask the same of Christians who read this: What do you stand for and not just what you stand against? New Age thinking has infiltrated Jewish and Christian thinking on organizational and individual levels. Christians attack New Age thinking in Judaism. Jews attack New Age thinking in Christianity. Very few know what New Age thinking is. Do we have to wait 30 years before academics look back to see what is occurring now? -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 10:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice -Caveat Lector- Guess what I AM anti-religion. Get a grip. BTW - laughter - the ability to find humor, even in the darkest of days is the highest of human virtues. Embrace the cosmic goof. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- That inability to separate Jews, the ethnicity, from Judaism, the religion, is what will kill us off in the long run. It is the inability , of both Jews and non-Jews to distinguish between the 2 that has been the greatest cause of harm, through misunderstanding, to Jews world-wide. Morality is only morality when it comes from within, not because it is mandated by some external threat, whether that threat is the punishment by god or man. I have a very strong sense of morality, a sense of outrage at the mistreatment of humans at the hands of other humans. A sense of outrage informed by the mores of Jewish culture. I stand for freedom of thought and action, guided by compassion. The big questions (all of which really boil down to one question - what does it mean to be a human?) need to be answered, and sticking to 1 year old metaphors holds back the entire species from moving on and seeking newer, better, and more complete answers. It is time to shed the fairy tales of childhood, and move on. Quite frankly your initial sentence is extremely Un-Jewish. The Jewish response to tragedy and oppression has always been humor. (dear god - for just a little while can't you choose some one else) Can you define this new age phrase for me? I can't quite get a handle on what you mean, and thus cannot respond to it. If by new age you mean unfettered by ancient metaphors that no longer jibe with our understanding of how the universe works - I am all for it. If you just mean substituting the majority culture's nonsense with other nonsense, leave me out of it. on 01/05/03 12:16 PM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- I don't find laughter where the future of Jews and Judaism are concerned. I know you are anti-religion; that is obvious. Where do you stand with regard to morality? Since you are presenting yourself as a defender of Jews and since Judaism and Jews cannot be separated, what do you stand for, not just what you stand against? I ask the same of Christians who read this: What do you stand for and not just what you stand against? New Age thinking has infiltrated Jewish and Christian thinking on organizational and individual levels. Christians attack New Age thinking in Judaism. Jews attack New Age thinking in Christianity. Very few know what New Age thinking is. Do we have to wait 30 years before academics look back to see what is occurring now? -- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - - - - -- --- -- - - - - -- - - - -- -- - -- - Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and truth. Henrik Ibsen NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- You state the inability to separate Jews from religious Judaism will kill us off. You say that morality comes from within. Then if morality comes from within, one cannot depend on what the morality of any individual is. This is the basis of anti-Semitism, where the morality of Jews is categorized as evil. The theory is the predominant idea. What Thew's view of morality are is just a blip. What antisemites say is the morality of 99.9% of the Jews is will hold in the face of what you say your personal morality is. In opposition I say that the Jews hold to the morality of Judaism and that you are outside of the definition of the morality of the community. I see no written idea of what you think is the morality of the secular Jewish community. Morality is the basis of community. When we look to our fellow man, we need to know what they believe in for our response. Granted that not everyone who professes to a morality follows it. New Age morality is based on the idea of what is good for the community rather than on respect for the individual. Jews were killed off during the Holocaust because of what the Nazis believed was the good of the larger community. The entire abortion, euthanasia, ecology, individual rights arguments are based on whose interests are more important, the individual or the community. You need to show how you think the morality of the community you espouse will help the individual who disagrees with what you believe. Can you show how your idea of community morality will allow fundamentalist Judaism and Christianity to continue and still allow for community morality? I can't see how it will be done under New Age thinking where that which causes separation is considered evil. ---Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of thew Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 11:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice -Caveat Lector- That inability to separate Jews, the ethnicity, from Judaism, the religion, is what will kill us off in the long run. It is the inability , of both Jews and non-Jews to distinguish between the 2 that has been the greatest cause of harm, through misunderstanding, to Jews world-wide. Morality is only morality when it comes from within, not because it is mandated by some external threat, whether that threat is the punishment by god or man. I have a very strong sense of morality, a sense of outrage at the mistreatment of humans at the hands of other humans. A sense of outrage informed by the mores of Jewish culture. I stand for freedom of thought and action, guided by compassion. The big questions (all of which really boil down to one question - what does it mean to be a human?) need to be answered, and sticking to 1 year old metaphors holds back the entire species from moving on and seeking newer, better, and more complete answers. It is time to shed the fairy tales of childhood, and move on. Quite frankly your initial sentence is extremely Un-Jewish. The Jewish response to tragedy and oppression has always been humor. (dear god - for just a little while can't you choose some one else) Can you define this new age phrase for me? I can't quite get a handle on what you mean, and thus cannot respond to it. If by new age you mean unfettered by ancient metaphors that no longer jibe with our understanding of how the universe works - I am all for it. If you just mean substituting the majority culture's nonsense with other nonsense, leave me out of it. on 01/05/03 12:16 PM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- I don't find laughter where the future of Jews and Judaism are concerned. I know you are anti-religion; that is obvious. Where do you stand with regard to morality? Since you are presenting yourself as a defender of Jews and since Judaism and Jews cannot be separated, what do you stand for, not just what you stand against? I ask the same of Christians who read this: What do you stand for and not just what you stand against? New Age thinking has infiltrated Jewish and Christian thinking on organizational and individual levels. Christians attack New Age thinking in Judaism. Jews attack New Age thinking in Christianity. Very few know what New Age thinking is. Do we have to wait 30 years before academics look back to see what is occurring now? -- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - - - - -- --- -- - - - - -- - - - -- -- - -- - Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and truth. Henrik Ibsen NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions
Re: [CTRL] Nuns as sexual victims get little notice
-Caveat Lector- Do you not see your own contradiction here? Here let me make it explicit: Morality is the basis of community. And New Age morality is based on the idea of what is good for the community rather than on respect for the individual My community is somewhat larger than yours I guess - it is not limited by ethnicity or creed. It is not the community of secular Judaism, nor the community of Judaism. It is the community of humanity. My response to another is not based on a need to know what they believe in - my response is based on what I believe in REGARDLESS of their beliefs. While I don't think it is particularly healthy for the species for either fundamentalist Judaism or Christianity to continue, I will fight to the death the right of individuals to HOLD those beliefs. Your mind is your own. As I understand what it means to be a good Jew is to repair the shattered unity of the universe, or in less esoteric terms, to behave in a manner that increases the overall good and weal of the universe and the individuals in it. Behavior not belief defines a good Jew. It also defines a good human being. As to depending on the morality of others - well that will always fall short on depending on the morality of one's self. The key question is how to balance the need for the good of the community against the need to enhance the freedom of the individual. It is a difficult line to walk, especially because it is shifting constantly. Not only constantly, but at an ever increasing rate. That is why we cannot rely solely on some 5000 year old book and 1 year old metaphors to define what is or is not moral. on 01/05/03 1:29 PM, Zuukie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You state the inability to separate Jews from religious Judaism will kill us off. You say that morality comes from within. Then if morality comes from within, one cannot depend on what the morality of any individual is. This is the basis of anti-Semitism, where the morality of Jews is categorized as evil. The theory is the predominant idea. What Thew's view of morality are is just a blip. What antisemites say is the morality of 99.9% of the Jews is will hold in the face of what you say your personal morality is. In opposition I say that the Jews hold to the morality of Judaism and that you are outside of the definition of the morality of the community. I see no written idea of what you think is the morality of the secular Jewish community. Morality is the basis of community. When we look to our fellow man, we need to know what they believe in for our response. Granted that not everyone who professes to a morality follows it. New Age morality is based on the idea of what is good for the community rather than on respect for the individual. Jews were killed off during the Holocaust because of what the Nazis believed was the good of the larger community. The entire abortion, euthanasia, ecology, individual rights arguments are based on whose interests are more important, the individual or the community. You need to show how you think the morality of the community you espouse will help the individual who disagrees with what you believe. Can you show how your idea of community morality will allow fundamentalist Judaism and Christianity to continue and still allow for community morality? I can't see how it will be done under New Age thinking where that which causes separation is considered evil. -- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - - - - -- --- -- - - - - -- - - - -- -- - -- - Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. Justice Louis D. Brandeis NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A
