Re: [CTRL] Why I am a Homophobe response
-Caveat Lector- Is it your contention that one should be free to discuss issues, such as the "immorality of homosexuality" and other related issues openly and in public? If so, I agree. Whatever one is in agreement with or opposed to one should be free to discuss and proclaim. The libertarian view would hold that you have no right to infringe upon my right to be free from your interference, and certainly that you have no right to impose your views, by enacting laws for example, onto me and my beliefs because they do not agree with yours. There are issues of respect toward fellow human beings that should be observed in all of this, unless, of course, you are a sociopath (I use the YOU in a general sense, not directed at you individually) then you have no such constraints. One must be able discuss ones beliefs in a manner that does not deny the inherent humanity in the people that one is opposed to. This is something that in practice is nearly impossible to do, thus governments and communities, in order to preserve this state of societal politeness pass laws against such behavior or make it a taboo topic and "make fun of" those who hold the opposing views. This is not the ideal. Typically discussion and opposition degrade to name calling and then to violence between opposing groups, because of such strongly held positions. That is not the ideal either. Incidentally on the topic of taxation, this country had adequate policing, military, etc. before there was a national tax. Why not now? In a message dated 11/29/99 1:34:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: although the libertarian system has much to commend it, and of all the secular systems it is the most attractive, it fails on a number of key areas. Primarily it avoids the whole issue of community. It imposes on the state that people are not allowed to express deep seated convictions in a public arena and ultimately denying freedom of association. a society without common value system will remain at war with itself and will fight until a certain value system predominates. Also it has no ability to define values systems. What purpose is there in honesty except if it contradicts the power of the state. If liberterians are consistent, then there should be no tax, if no tax who polices, if no police how are conflicts settled, if there is no state, who is to stop invasion. Libertarianism will be not self consistent and unmanageable. In SA we have moved from one form of racist corporatist state to another form of racist corpoatist state(with a 4 year liberal interlude). In multiracial state with strong group identities, the libertarian ideal again falls apart. Also all government systems have a fundamental world view that is based on faith. those who think that they are fully bound by reason are usually those most deluded by their own faith. John ** *** "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, "The Matrix". "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of seas of infinity, and it is not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P.Lovecraft; "The Call of Cthulhu" DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why I am a Homophobe response
-Caveat Lector- although the libertarian system has much to commend it, and of all the secular systems it is the most attractive, it fails on a number of key areas. Primarily it avoids the whole issue of community. It imposes on the state that people are not allowed to express deep seated convictions in a public arena and ultimately denying freedom of association. a society without common value system will remain at war with itself and will fight until a certain value system predominates. Also it has no ability to define values systems. What purpose is there in honesty except if it contradicts the power of the state. If liberterians are consistent, then there should be no tax, if no tax who polices, if no police how are conflicts settled, if there is no state, who is to stop invasion. Libertarianism will be not self consistent and unmanageable. In SA we have moved from one form of racist corporatist state to another form of racist corpoatist state(with a 4 year liberal interlude). In multiracial state with strong group identities, the libertarian ideal again falls apart. Also all government systems have a fundamental world view that is based on faith. those who think that they are fully bound by reason are usually those most deluded by their own faith. John Interesting sites on homosexuality(and related topics) Christian http://home.earthlink.net/~lively/pscont.htm#anchor210167 http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/index.html Darwinian http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/em_homosexuality.html http://home.att.net/~nuenke1/ Homosexual http://www.glaad.org/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 November 1999 06:10 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Why I am not a Homophobe response -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 11/28/99 4:08:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thankfully ,there are laws that prevent Christians and all religions from using the force of a gun as an evangelistic tool in the US. If you have experienced such a thing you do have recourse.And lastly I did not see any other posts that pointedly expressed a Christian belief other than mine,so I must assume that you meant those remarks toward me. I do not assume that the world revolves around me or any single group of people. I do not like in your face tactics but if you truly beleive such assaults help win people to your cause---well, only time will tell if they are effective. Karen Kerr Do not think this is directed at anyone in particular (if I might speak for nessie). There are many on this list that espouse Christian views. The FACT that Christian thought has dominated the Western Tradition for hundreds of years cannot be denied. This is what makes comments like those of nessie and other have validity. There is a view in SOME Christian circles that TAKE FOR GRANTED the inherent "rightness" and "superiority" of their viewpoint, and also take for granted that Christian thought dominates the mindset of this country so that they can espouse their views to the detriment of others with impunity, knowing that the majority of people will at least pay lip service to what they are saying if not openly defending it. Christianity AS IT IS PRACTICED BY ORGANIZED MAINSTREAM CHURCHES is remarkably intolerant, in that ALL OTHER religious groups (except perhaps a small number of Jews) are doomed to be destroyed unless they convert. To be sure their are other groups that do this as well, so I do not paint the established church as the only culprit, neither do I presume that all members of even the established churches hold to this view. But this idea manifests in the way in which these Christian groups interact with others. The idea that their position is the only one that offers salvation and a moral imperative to "save" others, even from themselves, makes the tactics described almost inevitable, even if the best intentions are meant. Do not take my words to be a diatribe against anyone's belief, or faith, since such things are of individual import, thus even if one wants to follow a system that I wholly disagree with I will defend their right to practice and preach it (though in a "Libertarian" framework, which does not allow their practice to encroach upon my right to be free from the actions of others that I consider harmful or a nuisance to me). There is much to be commended within the Christian system, and much to hold in contempt, it is best to examine it AND all other religious systems in light of one's own belief structure and come to conclusions that have meaning and validity to your own life, based upon your own faith. ** *** "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, "The Matrix". "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the ina
