Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-12-21 17:48:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is probably true also. But only because the Phoenicians traded along the coasts. Many nations, including Egypt, sailed along the coasts. Egypt had an AVERSION to the sea. So, when it came to seafaring, the Egyptians "contracted out" to the Phoenicians, Mycenaeans, and perhaps earlier the Minoans. The Phoenicians were tolerated as "colonial governors" for absentee-landlord Egypt, particularly around the time of the early Israelite "Kingdom." The Mycenaeans were virtually nobodies until they settled in the Delta and signed on as Egypt's mercenaries, to fill the vacuum left by the deterioration of Phoenician control of its "colony" Canaan. After the civil war under King Solomon (who married an Egyptian princess as a token of his "fealty" to the Pharaoh) which split Israel into Judah, isolated inland in the far south, and Israel (the Ten Tribes) in the north, nextdoor to Tyre and Sidon, Judah declined in all aspects of culture while the Northern Kingdom, "Phoenicia's" partner, prospered and excelled in its culture -- reflecting its mercantile relations with both Egypt and Greece. Only the Assyrians, elbowing into the area from Mesopotamia, hoping to gain control of Mediterranean trade by conquering "Phoenicia" plus "Israel," changed that equation. The Canaanite-Phoenicians were THEN driven more westward into the Mediterranean and became primarily "Phoenicians," i.e., COLONIAL seaport settlers, instead of urban Canaanites on Near Eastern coastlines. The histories of the Canaanite-Phoenicians written by Sancthuniathon sp? et al., who had access to more ancient archives still in Byblos, referred explicitly to their origin as an URBANIZED people in the Holy Land who LATER just happened to develop a sea trade (after the MINOAN civilization fell). They too declined as the Mycenaeans, evolving into "Greeks," grew in greater favor with Egypt, who, as "breadbasket of the Mediterranean," was always in "remote-control" of the Levant -- until itself conquered by Persia, and by Persia's conqueror, Alexander. The sea-rule of the Phoenicians and Mycenaeans spanned a mere 500 years, 1100 to 600 BC, coinciding with Israel's history. That was "Egypt's" only great maritime period too -- excluding seafaring feats attributed to Old Kingdom pharaohs 1500 years earlier. (And that EARLIER epoch, according to Herodotus, was when Egypt founded Byblos, first of its "colonies" in the Near East [and ALSO when Egyptians colonized Crete?].) DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- You're assuming that both "Israel" and "Phoenicia" were nations as we know that concept today. They weren't. They were a collection of cities (i.e. trading stations) loosely held together by cultural ties and fealty to a "high king." As we've discussed in other threads, there is considerable evidence of close cultural contact between Syria-Canaan-Israel and Mycenaean Greeks, both in Greece and in Anatolia. The "Philistines" (who gave their name, via a convoluted route, to "Filistina" [Palestine]) seem to have been a particularly heterogeneous group, some of whom were usually fighting with various Israelites at any given time...while at the same time other Philistines were *allied* with various Israelites. The same was true of Phoenicia, as well as Ammon, Midian, and the other "nations" of the Fertile Crescent. It wasn't the non-existent "king of Phoenicia" who was allied with Solomon of Israel, for example, but rather Hiram of Tyre...and it is not at all beyond the realm of possibility that there were Israelites on ships sailing out of Tyre and other Phoenician cities. -Original Message- From: YnrChyldzWyld [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 8:25 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd) -Caveat Lector- On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Nurev Ind Research wrote: snip cities on the Eastern Mediterranean evolved into Philistia. The Philistines were the enemies of the Jews then and down to this day. Both tribes were warring over the same territory. Down to this very day. Not according to the archeological evidence presented in the article -- before they became Philistines, apparantly Israel and Phoenicia were quite cordial with each other...Phoenicia in the beginning apparantly acted as an outpost of its neighbor to the south... June ;-) DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- "Tatman, Robert" wrote: -Caveat Lector- You're assuming that both "Israel" and "Phoenicia" were nations as we know that concept today. They weren't. They were a collection of cities (i.e. trading stations) loosely held together by cultural ties and fealty to a "high king." This is certainly true of the Phoenicians, but I'm not so sure about other people who were tribal and had tribal territories. As we've discussed in other threads, there is considerable evidence of close cultural contact between Syria-Canaan-Israel and Mycenaean Greeks, both in Greece and in Anatolia. The "Philistines" (who gave their name, via a convoluted route, to "Filistina" [Palestine]) seem to have been a particularly heterogeneous group, some of whom were usually fighting with various Israelites at any given time...while at the same time other Philistines were *allied* with various Israelites. The same was true of Phoenicia, as well as Ammon, Midian, and the other "nations" of the Fertile Crescent. It wasn't the non-existent "king of Phoenicia" who was allied with Solomon of Israel, for example, but rather Hiram of Tyre This is true. ...and it is not at all beyond the realm of possibility that there were Israelites on ships sailing out of Tyre and other Phoenician cities. This is probably true also. But only because the Phoenicians traded along the coasts. Many nations, including Egypt, sailed along the coasts. In coastal trading, it is possible that Israelites, and maybe even others sailed with them. But that did not apply to trans oceanic sailing. The Phoenicians had a monopoly on that and didn't share their secrets with anyone. Joshua2 -Original Message- From: YnrChyldzWyld [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 8:25 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd) -Caveat Lector- On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Nurev Ind Research wrote: snip cities on the Eastern Mediterranean evolved into Philistia. The Philistines were the enemies of the Jews then and down to this day. Both tribes were warring over the same territory. Down to this very day. Not according to the archeological evidence presented in the article -- before they became Philistines, apparantly Israel and Phoenicia were quite cordial with each other...Phoenicia in the beginning apparantly acted as an outpost of its neighbor to the south... June ;-) DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Nurev Ind Research wrote: How does this give life to the " lost tribes come to America theory? How big do you think their ships were? Phoenicia wasn't Israel's navy. I'm only relating what was in the article, which speculated that Phoenicia was comprised mostly of Israelite immigrants, and acted as Israel's navy and merchant fleet... We may be agreeing here. The above statement could be true in the Era of Solomon's reign when Israel was the preeminent power in the region. This was a rare condition though. That land was usually part of someone else's empire. Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Greece, Rome, and then it ceased to exist. The Romans then named it Palestina - the land of the Philistines. When they did this 135/6 CE, the Philistines no longer existed. I'm not certain about this though. How big do I think their ships were? I can only go by the archeological evidence, which shows them to be as big as other countries' ships of the era, but somewhat more sleek and hence faster and more maneverable. There is no question that Phoenica had the upperhand when it came to seafaring of the era... I simply meant that their ships were neither big enough, nor numerous enough to transport the ten tribes to proto America. Thor Heyerdahl proved that Egyptian boats made out of reeds could have made it to the New World, therefore the infinitely more seaworthy Phoenician ships could have, also... I agree. cities on the Eastern Mediterranean evolved into Philistia. The Philistines were the enemies of the Jews then and down to this day. Both tribes were warring over the same territory. Down to this very day. Not according to the archeological evidence presented in the article -- before they became Philistines, apparantly Israel and Phoenicia were quite cordial with each other...Phoenicia in the beginning apparantly acted as an outpost of its neighbor to the south... June ;-) I think we are saying the same thing. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- On Sat, 18 Dec 1999, Nurev Ind Research wrote: How does this give life to the " lost tribes come to America theory? How big do you think their ships were? Phoenicia wasn't Israel's navy. I'm only relating what was in the article, which speculated that Phoenicia was comprised mostly of Israelite immigrants, and acted as Israel's navy and merchant fleet... How big do I think their ships were? I can only go by the archeological evidence, which shows them to be as big as other countries' ships of the era, but somewhat more sleek and hence faster and more maneverable. There is no question that Phoenica had the upperhand when it came to seafaring of the era... Thor Heyerdahl proved that Egyptian boats made out of reeds could have made it to the New World, therefore the infinitely more seaworthy Phoenician ships could have, also... cities on the Eastern Mediterranean evolved into Philistia. The Philistines were the enemies of the Jews then and down to this day. Both tribes were warring over the same territory. Down to this very day. Not according to the archeological evidence presented in the article -- before they became Philistines, apparantly Israel and Phoenicia were quite cordial with each other...Phoenicia in the beginning apparantly acted as an outpost of its neighbor to the south... June ;-) |===SEASONS===GREETINGS==| | \ /| | *~o) )_ )_ )_ )_ - * - | | |`--) , ,_),_),_),_/ / \| | ``^^^`` /~\/~\/~\/~\| || | / / / | | | \ / (((((( -+- | | - * -.-#--..-#-..--#-. | | | /|\/__\ /_\ /__\ /-\ | |__//|\\| [] [] || [] [] || [] [] |___/---\___ldb__| artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb) *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: Nurev wrote: cities on the Eastern Mediterranean evolved into Philistia. The Philistines were the enemies of the Jews then and down to this day. Both tribes were warring over the same territory. Down to this very day. Not according to the archeological evidence presented in the article -- before they became Philistines, apparantly Israel and Phoenicia were quite cordial with each other...Phoenicia in the beginning apparantly acted as an outpost of its neighbor to the south... The Phoenicians never 'became Philistines' -- the Philistines were always the enemies of Israel, Judah, and the Phoenician Canaanites. The Philistines were/are Hamites (as were the Phoenician Canaanites), but not Semites; they are often said to be of Indo-European ancestry. excerpt from: 'Ph£;nicia' - http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/12041a.htm The oldest historical references to Ph£;nicia are found in the Egyptian inscriptions of the Pharaohs, Aahmes (1587-62 B.C.) and his successors Thothmes I (1541-16 B.C.), and Thothmes III (1503-1449 B.C.) in which the Ph£;nicians are called "Dahe" or "Zahi", and "Fenkhu". In the Tell-el-Amarna letters is found much interesting information concerning their cities and especially Tyre, famous for her wealth. During all this period Egyptian suzerainty was more or less effective. Sidon was gradually eclipsed by the rising power and wealth of Tyre, against which the Philistines were powerless, though they constantly attacked the former. About the year 1250, after conquering Ashdod, Askelon, Ekron, Gaza, and Gath, they forced the Sidonians to surrender the city of Dor. At this time Tyre became foremost in Ph£;nicia and one of the greatest and wealthiest cities of the Mediterranean region. Its first king was Hiram, the son of Abi-Baal and contemporary of David and Solomon. His reign lasted some forty years, and to his energy Tyre owed much of its renown. He enlarged the city, surrounding it with massive walls, improved its harbours, and rebuilt the temple of Melkarth. He forced the Philistine pirates to retreat, thus securing prosperity in maritime commerce and caravan trade, and Ph£;nician colonization spread along the coast of Asia Minor, Sicily, Greece, and Africa. He established a commercial alliance with the Hebrews, and his Ph£;nician artists and craftsmen greatly aided them in building the temple, and palaces of Solomon. He quelled the revolt in Utica and established Ph£;nician supremacy in North Africa where Carthage, the most important of all Ph£;nician colonies, was later built. excerpt from: 'Phoenician Government and Politics' http://phoenicia.org/govern.html King Hiram's enemies were the Philistines, who kept the Tyrians and Sidonians from prospering on the sea. They were King David's first enimies. The latter, by training the Israelite infantry, especially the bowmen, he proved more than a match for Philistine and other foes who employed horses and chariots. In addition, King Hiram made common cause with King David, forming a land and sea alliance that endured into Solomon's reign. Solomon, accordingly, inherited a considerable empire, along with a Phoenician ally of prime importance for naval and merchant-marine operations. excerpt from: 'History of the Phoenician' http://phoenicia.org/history.html At the beginning of the Iron Age, as part of the invasion of the Sea Peoples (groups from the Greek islands, especially Crete), the Philistines occupied the coastal area south of Mt. Carmel, including Dor, Ashdod, Ashkelon, and Gaza. By the eighth century B.C., however, the material culture of the Phoenicians extended southward, and Sidon controlled Dor and Joppa during the Persian period (539-333 B.C). The Achaemenians, an Iranian dynasty under the leadership of Cyrus II, conquered the area in 538 B.C. Sidon became a principal coastal city of this empire. The history of Tyre and Sidon is intertwined (indeed they were only twenty-two miles [35 km.] apart). Classical tradition suggests that Sidon was the more powerful at first but by the tenth century B.C. Tyre dominated. Tyre's kings ruled a stretch of the coast that included Sidon and often they were referred to as kings of the Sidonians (1 Kings 16:31). excerpt from: 'The Nations of Ham' http://www.best.com/~dolphin//cooper/appen2.html 17. Casluhim: The precise whereabouts of their country is uncertain, although the book of Genesis does record that the Philistines came from this people. Some cite Crete as their possible place of settlement, which, if true, would make the Ethiopic War of Josephus a truly international conflict, as he records the destruction of the Casluhim in that war. This, however, only serves to make Crete a most unlikely place for their settlement, the northern areas of Egypt being a far more reasonable proposition (but see
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Tatman, Robert wrote: ISTR that the primary evidence for Phoenician or Carthaginian landings in the Americas is a heavily-eroded monument found in Brazil (sorry, can't remember when or exactly where). I remember reading an article in the early to mid-1980s in I believe "The Smithsonian" magazine (altho it could have been "The National Geographic" which I also got at the time), in which the showed (with many photos and drawings) studies which lead the researchers to conclude that the infamous "Bimini Road" (of Edgar Cayce fame) was really a Phoenician seaport, that it pointed to a time when the Phoenicians were a great seafaring power, coinciding with a time when sea levels were lower The 'road' actually being a seawall, along which ships docked... Not long after that, I read an article in "The Biblical Archeology Review" which pointed out how little we actually know about Phoenicia and its people (the article was positing a question as to why ancient Israel was the only country on the Mediterranean who seemingly never had a navy, or even plied commerce via water, and concluded that Phoenicia was indeed Israel's 'navy') Which, if true, and if Phoenicians made it to the New World, would give new life to the 'lost tribes came to America' theories... ;-) June ;-) |===SEASONS===GREETINGS==| | \ /| | *~o) )_ )_ )_ )_ - * - | | |`--) , ,_),_),_),_/ / \| | ``^^^`` /~\/~\/~\/~\| || | / / / | | | \ / (((((( -+- | | - * -.-#--..-#-..--#-. | | | /|\/__\ /_\ /__\ /-\ | |__//|\\| [] [] || [] [] || [] [] |___/---\___ldb__| artist -SheDragon (Laura) (ldb) *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: -Caveat Lector- On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Tatman, Robert wrote: ISTR that the primary evidence for Phoenician or Carthaginian landings in the Americas is a heavily-eroded monument found in Brazil (sorry, can't remember when or exactly where). I remember reading an article in the early to mid-1980s in I believe "The Smithsonian" magazine (altho it could have been "The National Geographic" which I also got at the time), in which the showed (with many photos and drawings) studies which lead the researchers to conclude that the infamous "Bimini Road" (of Edgar Cayce fame) was really a Phoenician seaport, that it pointed to a time when the Phoenicians were a great seafaring power, coinciding with a time when sea levels were lower The 'road' actually being a seawall, along which ships docked... Not long after that, I read an article in "The Biblical Archeology Review" which pointed out how little we actually know about Phoenicia and its people (the article was positing a question as to why ancient Israel was the only country on the Mediterranean who seemingly never had a navy, or even plied commerce via water, and concluded that Phoenicia was indeed Israel's 'navy') Which, if true, and if Phoenicians made it to the New World, would give new life to the 'lost tribes came to America' theories... ;-) June ;-) How does this give life to the " lost tribes come to America theory? How big do you think their ships were? Phoenicia wasn't Israel's navy. King Solomon had a good working relationship with the King of Tyre who brought the Cedars of Lebanon to him to build the Temple. The Phoenicians' cities on the Eastern Mediterranean evolved into Philistia. The Philistines were the enemies of the Jews then and down to this day. Both tribes were warring over the same territory. Down to this very day. There is every likelihood that the Phoenicians had bases on Proto America. Phoenicia itself was not a country as we know it today, but a number of cities and ports around the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts. Their sailing methods were secret, and any Phoenician who spilled the beans, was killed. I have seen speculation that they had the loadstone and used it as a compass. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- ISTR that the primary evidence for Phoenician or Carthaginian landings in the Americas is a heavily-eroded monument found in Brazil (sorry, can't remember when or exactly where). IIRC, near the end of his life, the great Semitic-language scholar and archaeologist Cyrus Gordon did a rough translation of this stone; he believed it to be Phoenician, and said that it recorded a trading expedition down the coast of West Africa that got blown badly off course and crashed on the Brazilian coast (near Bahia?). They worked their way inland and finally wound up totally stranded in the Matto Grosso. There are some much more iffy "inscriptions" found in Oklahoma, which could either be West Semitic script or grooves cut by years of plowing. Of all the pre-Columbian traders, the Phoenicians were certainly the finest seafarers. I am not familiar with the New Zealand evidence, and will watch with interest to see whether some of our Kiwi sistern and brethren can contribute more detailed information on these sites. I *have* seen some of the work of the "radical diffusionist" Heine-Gelderen, who believed that ancient stoneworks in New Zealand were actually Egyptian in origin. Heine-Gelderen is often derided as a crackpot, but recent anthropological discoveries, such as the DNA/virus link between aboriginal populations in Japan and Peru, suggest that we have just barely begun to document the wanderings of our human ancestors...in short, you really *can't* rule out the possibility of Phoenicians or Egyptians (or Egyptians with a Phoenician crew?) reaching New Zealand. I'm not prepared to believe it outright, but neither am I prepared to *dis*believe it. -Original Message- From: Bill Kingsbury [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 9:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd) -Caveat Lector- snip If anyone has any information about ancient Phoenician landings in America, I would be pleased to hear them. One message had mention of proof that this was so, but did not say what he evidence was. snip DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd)
-Caveat Lector- There was information on this Phoenician "cargo platform" in the book "America BC" by Fell. Out of print now, but one of the used book searchers may locate a copy for you. He covered LOTS of finds in the upper East coast of the US, with more spotty coverage of the rest of the country. Many photographs and a removable fold out map really put you in the scene he was discussing. AmPat -Original Message- From: Tatman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 11:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd) -Caveat Lector- ISTR that the primary evidence for Phoenician or Carthaginian landings in the Americas is a heavily-eroded monument found in Brazil (sorry, can't remember when or exactly where). IIRC, near the end of his life, the great Semitic-language scholar and archaeologist Cyrus Gordon did a rough translation of this stone; he believed it to be Phoenician, and said that it recorded a trading expedition down the coast of West Africa that got blown badly off course and crashed on the Brazilian coast (near Bahia?). They worked their way inland and finally wound up totally stranded in the Matto Grosso. There are some much more iffy "inscriptions" found in Oklahoma, which could either be West Semitic script or grooves cut by years of plowing. Of all the pre-Columbian traders, the Phoenicians were certainly the finest seafarers. I am not familiar with the New Zealand evidence, and will watch with interest to see whether some of our Kiwi sistern and brethren can contribute more detailed information on these sites. I *have* seen some of the work of the "radical diffusionist" Heine-Gelderen, who believed that ancient stoneworks in New Zealand were actually Egyptian in origin. Heine-Gelderen is often derided as a crackpot, but recent anthropological discoveries, such as the DNA/virus link between aboriginal populations in Japan and Peru, suggest that we have just barely begun to document the wanderings of our human ancestors...in short, you really *can't* rule out the possibility of Phoenicians or Egyptians (or Egyptians with a Phoenician crew?) reaching New Zealand. I'm not prepared to believe it outright, but neither am I prepared to *dis*believe it. -Original Message- From: Bill Kingsbury [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 9:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [CTRL] Phoenicians in ancient New Zealand ? (fwd) -Caveat Lector- snip If anyone has any information about ancient Phoenician landings in America, I would be pleased to hear them. One message had mention of proof that this was so, but did not say what he evidence was. snip DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. == == Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ == == To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe
