CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention UK
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, I am in favour and would travel anywhere in UK, but Steve's suggestion of holding it at the NEC in Birmingham is probably the most practical. I agree that there is a need to distance ourselves from the NRA althought I am not convinced that distancing ourselves from Target Shooting is a good idea at this stage, because that would also distance us from the present gun owners and from their support, both moral and financial. Is it a better strategy to demand a repeal of a very recent act of Parliament, which we can prove to have been totally ineffective and misplaced, or to attempt to restore a "right" that can be argued that we have not had for 80 years and which is very much under attack world wide? Whilst we are on this subject may I say that I believe that the GCN have the right to be anti-gun, but we have the equal right to be pro-gun AND TO SAY WHAT WE BELIVEVE AND WANT TO THEIR FACES! The only logical reason why the six members of GCN are always listenened to and invited to sit on various committees is because they are Governmnent sponsored, so let us not kid ourselves any longer that they are a genuine anti-gun body. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to lobby the government on any issue, but they are not entitled to do so from complete secrecy. So, let us have their names, addresses, emails and any other way to reach them with our opinions! Alex -- I suggested the motorcycle museum, not the NEC! The GCN is not Government sponsored. They do seem to have reasonably competent PR though. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention USA
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] That doesn't necessarily matter, to be frank, but getting people to lecture on the rights of self-defence and so on I suspect would go down like a lead balloon. Steve. __ I agree that raising the "right of self defence" would get strong opposition from the police and the government, but it would be relatively easy to collect statistics of cases where unarmed and physically disadvantaged people have been killed, mugged, injured and violently robbed and present each case as an incident that the police failed to prevent! These cases must run into thousands each year, proving beyond doubt that catching criminals after the event is not good enough or effective crime prevention! How difficult would it be to form a Pro-GCN consisting of several hundreds (several thousands would be better) of former victims of violent crime. Let us press the government for a new Act making it a serious offence to mug or rob anyone without a 40 minute warning to give the police the chance to defend prospective victims (Home Secretary to be given powers to extend the period of warning to one hour or longer to compensate for the shortage of police on the beat).This Act would be as effective as the Firearms (Amendment) Act, 1977, so why can't we have it on the next Labour election manifesto? I am not sure whether we already lead the World with ineffective and stupid legislation, but give us time and we'll get there! -- I think you're missing my point. It's not that the Government and police would get upset, it's that you'd likely be talking to a brick wall because most field and target shooters simply don't care, or else think it's distasteful to broach the topic. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-King's African Rifles
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] My father served with the KARs in East Africa at the start of WW2 and about 200 KARs served with my uncle Jock's regiment and my father in North Africa and up through Italy into Germany and were "topped-up" with fresh KARs when necessary. Ever heard this song: "Funga safari Funga safari Oom riawa na Oom riawa na, Kapitini Oom ri Ah Kay Ah" (We're going on safari We're going on safari We'll know where we're going when we get there, says the Captain We are the KAR) My maternal grandfather was in the Boer War and the Great War and my mother had some interesting memories of him. She was telling me about playing "Soldiers and Brave Nurses" as a child after the Great War. The boys had father-made rifles (with door bolts) painted the correct khaki colour and the girls had rectangles of white cloth tied to their foreheads with bits of string. The girls crawled across to "wounded soldiers" in no-mans-land with bits of string held between their teeth in imitation of the nurses doing the same with ropes to drag wounded soldiers back with. Her father came home and saw this one day with a Ho, Ho, Ho! and commented that the nurses wore grey uniforms about the same colour as the Germans did and you had to be careful about who you shot in no-mans-land. Mothers weren't so keen on this game as the girls were crawling round in the dust and the dogshit full-length with their dresses. The girls liked the game because they didn't usually get the chance to be Brave - they usually got Captured, tied up and Rescued. She also recalled him standing on the corner with his rifle while police bullets from Lewis and Vickers guns were cracking and whining along the street - that was Ardwick just east of the centre of Manchester and just after the Great War. Lest we forget. If any one of you digs in your memory you'll come up with gems - do it. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Cybershooters award
I've decided to make the Cybershooters award a bit different this year, and as it will probably take forever to decide on the recipient, I thought I'd better get started now! This year (or rather 2001) we're going to give the award to the person or company that made the greatest contribution to shooting in the 20th century in the UK. Obviously it's going to have to be a person or company that still has some sort of existence in one shape or another otherwise it's a waste of time. Nominations? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Mass. shooting. Daily Telegraph editorial.
From: "David M", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Daily Telegraph editorial 28-12-00 This man wasn't mad about guns - he was just mad By Toby Harnden International: Seven killed for sake of a $2,000 tax bill A HAND-WRINGING Boston Globe editorial lamented the "nightmare that stalks the nation" and "bright river of blood" bursting forth because the country "refuses to pass stringent controls on firearms". Just as with the Columbine school massacre and the Michigan six-year-old who shot a classmate, the tragedy in Wakefield has already ushered in calls for "common sense gun control" and more laws to limit the Second Amendment right of Americans to own weapons. Expect an appearance from President Bill Clinton, his bottom lip trembling as he feels the nation's pain, in which he all but blames the Republican Party and the National Rifle Association for McDermott's actions. While such performances no doubt help liberal consciences, they can all too easily act as a substitute for thought - the terrible events in Wakefield on Boxing Day could well be used to illustrate the argument against further gun control. Massachusetts, the most safely Democratic state of the 50 in the Union, is something close to gun control heaven. An FBI instant background check has to be carried out on anyone buying a gun and there is a seven-day waiting period for handguns. There are strict licensing requirements with mandatory jail sentences for breaking them and no one under 21 can buy a gun. McDermott, it seems, had no licence for any gun. He also used an AK47 the world's favourite terrorist weapon and the subject of a federal ban since 1994. Curiously, one Democratic aide in Boston used these facts to reach the conclusion: "Massachusetts has some of the nation's toughest gun laws but this demonstrates that even those laws can be improved." OK, let's follow the logic here. A wacko ignores every gun law on the books and blows away his workmates. But if there had been even tougher laws, then he would have meekly laid down his AK47 and spoken to the human resources manager instead. Mr Clinton used a similar logic himself when hammering Republicans over the death of Kayla Rolland, the Michigan six-year-old. If only Congress had passed a mandatory trigger-lock law, then little Kayla would be alive today, he said. But the unpalatable truth is that if the weapon that killed Kayla had been the last gun in America it would not have had a trigger-lock. The boy who killed her lived in a crack house. His father was in prison and his mother an addict. The gun was stolen. All the gun laws in the world would not have saved Kayla. While the Michigan shooting and the Wakefield massacre prompt worldwide headlines, much of the hysteria about violence in America is the result of carefully twisted statistics. Democrats are fond of stating that 13 children die every day from gun violence. But about 70 per cent of those "children" are aged between 17 and 19, the vast majority of them killed in gang-related murders. Another favourite is that American children - it was Mr Clinton who taught Tony Blair that the justification "it's for the children" is the best substitute of all for reason - are more likely to die from gunfire than the combined total of juveniles in the next 25 industrialised nations. These nations, however, include Hong Kong (ask Chris Patten but it wasn't a nation the last time I checked) and Kuwait but not Russia or Brazil - countries that have largely banned guns but have murder rates four times higher than in the United States. That is not to say that America does not have a problem with gun violence or that politicians and police officers should not be doing all they can to tackle it. But this is difficult to do without defining the problem's scale and nature. Gun ownership in America is both enshrined in the constitution and one of its citizens' most cherished rights of freedom. Al Gore found this out to his cost in the election when his gun control rhetoric was one of the factors that cost him the presidency. George W Bush, in contrast, emphasised enforcing existing gun laws - an approach that seems sensible enough in the light of Wakefield. Moreover, America is already awash with guns and preventing the law-abiding from having access to a means of self-defence would be little more than positive discrimination for the criminal. If there is any answer to why Mike McDermott finally decided "enough already" on Boxing Day, it lies in the dark recesses of his mind rather than any draft legislation. However, as Bob Geldof concluded in his 1979 song I Don't Like Mondays - about Brenda Spencer, the San Diego schoolgirl who opened fire on her teachers and schoolmates - even the search for psychological explanations can be fruitless. "He can see no reasons 'cos there are no reasons," Bob Geldof sang of Spencer's father. More than 20 years on, the reasons why the "silicon chip inside a head gets switched to overload" are as elusive as
CS: Admin-website update
Another update to the website, this one covers the Swiss Ammunition Enterprise: http://www.cybershooters.org/swiss_ammunition_enterprise.htm Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention UK
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My view is that our sport is faced with extermination within the next ten years. Anything we do now to organise and oppose the anti's can ultimately be to our collective benefit. Absolutley spot on, we are in such a position now that anything we do may not do us much good but it can't really put us in a worse position than we already are. Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention UK
From: "VinceB", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Listers, If such a convention is to take place, why on earth do we want to exclude any shooters? At least the NRA do shoot, shoot frequently and competitively. Exactly who do you mean by 'Target Shooters' anyway? I thought we were all target shooters - except those who shoot only animals. Like it or not, the NRA must be the most influential group of shooters in the Country. How many other organisations - shooting or not - does the Queen give a prize to? Let's not start off by deciding who we can exclude but by who we can get to attend. We must have a commitment from every significant shooting body, otherwise non-attendance will be used against us by the press. Cheers VinceB -- If we do it, the press is not invited, who gives a toss what the press think? They'll probably portray it as a bunch of homicidal maniacs getting together to bugger each other or something daft, who cares. If we do it, invite _everyone_ from the shooting world, otherwise we will end up with whomever is not invited moaning about it ad infinitum. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-Intruder shot, killed
From: "N. L. Cobb", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Note the similarity to the Tony Martin case ("shot through the back") and
the contrast ("a clear case of self-defense and they will not refer the case
to the Marion County Prosecutor's office.") Guess that there are no
"lovable rogues" in Indiana or, if there are some, now there is one less!
Intruder shot, killed
By Kevin O'Neal
Indianapolis Star
December 27, 2000
Four men somehow heard that the residents of a Near-Eastside house had a
lot of money. There was no money, but there was a loaded shotgun and a
resident who was willing to use it on the robbers.
"There really wasn't very much brilliance here," said IPD homicide Det.
Michael A. Mitchell about the four suspects.
The attempted residence robbery on Tuesday night ended with one robber
dead
and a second man wounded, shot by one of the people in the house.
The other two suspects disappeared.
Police said the shooting was a clear case of self-defense and they will
not
refer the case to the Marion County prosecutor's office to consider
charges.
However, the wounded man could be charged with the dead man's death, and
the two suspects who ran could face similar charges.
The incident happened at 9:38 p.m. Tuesday in the 300 block of South Villa
Avenue. Killed was Gary Emler, 28, 300 block of North Holmes Avenue.
Wounded and later arrested was Andy Whobrey, 18, who lived at the same
address as Holmes.
Emler had been wanted on an arrest warrant in Hamilton County for
violating
his probation after a disorderly conduct conviction. Whobrey faces
preliminary charges of robbery and felony murder.
The preliminary murder charge comes because Whobrey was part of a crime in
which a person was killed.
Mitchell declined to identify the man who fired the fatal shots, saying he
was concerned that he might face reprisals from the two suspects who
escaped. However, the detective noted that the shooter was not the person
who owned the house where the incident happened.
Detectives aren't sure how the four men got the idea that there was money
in the house or why they decided to break in on Tuesday night.
Mitchell said there was no large amount of money in the house.
The homeowner and the man who fired the shots were asleep in separate
bedrooms of the house. Next to the shooter's bed was a 12-gauge shotgun,
loaded with deer slugs, that the man had used during a recent hunting trip
to Kentucky.
The four robbery suspects reportedly drove to the house, went to the back
door and kicked it open. There was nothing subtle about the entry. "They
took the door right off the frame," Mitchell said.
Armed with a small .25-caliber semi-automatic handgun, Emler apparently
led
the four men into the house. As he went down a hall, he was confronted by
the man who was armed with the loaded shotgun.
Emler pointed his handgun at the man with the shotgun, but that man got
off
a shot, putting a deer slug through Emler's chest from 10 feet away,
Mitchell said. Emler was knocked to the floor, then tried to crawl to the
handgun that he had dropped and took a second deer slug through the back.
One of those shots grazed Whobrey in the back. He and the other two
would-be robbers ran from the house, with Whobrey surfacing a couple of
hours later at the Methodist Hospital emergency room.
--
I'm amazed he was still going after one hit with a slug.
Steve.
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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CS: Misc-King's African Rifles
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My Dad served as an engineer in North Africa during World War Two and had contact with the King's African Rifles. One night he drove a jeep back to the compound after a heavy night with, I think, some American troops. He used to swap stuff with the Yanks to get cigs and US rations. He fell out with the KAR guardsmen at the compound gate and another KAR soldier intervened and fired a shot into the radiatior grill of Dad's jeep. In the ensuing inquiry the man who fired the shot was found to be a certain big black guy-- called Idi Amin On another occasion he crashed a lorry into a car carrying King Farouk, which caused masses of trouble. No wonder he gave up drinking before he was twenty five! I don't know how true these stories are, I merely report them. Later in life he was more than a match for Alf Garnett! Barry Woodward Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Gun Rights Convention UK
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whilst we are on this subject may I say that I believe that the GCN have the right to be anti-gun, but we have the equal right to be pro-gun AND TO SAY WHAT WE BELIVEVE AND WANT TO THEIR FACES! --snip-- Alex -- I suggested the motorcycle museum, not the NEC! The GCN is not Government sponsored. They do seem to have reasonably competent PR though. Steve. Steve, Alex, Well, do be sure to have people who can represent your cause who won't wilt under fire. I've seen enough of that from men and women here who just are not prepared to face the inevitable trained and hostile proponent of hate. To be able to calmly, cooly, and efficiently tackle every argument with great aplomb is a characteristic that is sorely lacking in all but a few speakers on our side of the argument, because most speakers on the local scene are not practiced enough. The antis almost always employ the emotion card, and they do it very effectively, especially when the debaters are a woman on the antis side, and a man on the pro side. Invariably, they try to make the man appear to look like a some kind of pervert, who could care less about the welfare of the children who are sometimes the targets. In cases like these, where a good woman speaker cannot be availed to, it helps beyond words for a progun speaker to have his own children with him, and maybe a few of their friends whom are shooters as well. You can't believe the effect that having a young person speak lucidly for the cause can have. There are so many times where their welfare is discussed, but their input is not addressed. The antis dare not attack the young person, for fear that it will detract from their position, especially when the young person can out-talk them on the issue. It helps immeasurably for those young people to be well versed to begin with, especially with the facts, and how those facts are misused, and twisted to mean what they are not. When the debaters are women only, then the debate can proceed from the standpoint of real facts. The antis don't talk facts unless it appears to help their side. It helps as well to have a woman who is comely, and whose elocution is a cut above the average. Having the whole family can even do the wonders that the antis will only stutter along trying to effuse their thoughts in a less effective way. The great object here is get this to become a family sport -- as it used to be, and the more family members that get involved the better. This is why you absolutely must endeavor to fill your ranks with women who can speak the issues, clearly, calmly, and be able to take on the hype by exposing it for the crass lie it is. And the more woman the better. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- My suggestion is Prince William, I cannot believe the amount of criticism he has gotten from these anti-hunting nutters. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Supplemental Chambers
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I read an interesting article in an old copy of "Handloader" about supplemental chambers for full bore rifles. These chambers look like cartridge cases on the outside, but are made of solid metal and bored to accept pistol cartridge that uses bullets close to the groove size of the full bore rifle in which they are to be fired. Winchester made them from 1914 to 1924 in several popular 30 calibres and also in .303 and they all used .32 Smith Wesson or .32 Colt New Police revolver cartridges. Using these chambers would enable firing of rifles chambered for 7.62NATO and .303" on indoor ranges approved for pistol and gallery rifles, so there might be interest in them on this side of the Atlantic even though they did not survive in the States. I would like to ask knowledgeable members of this list two questions, as follows:- 1. Do these supplemental chambers require British proof? 2. Has anyone tried manufacturing them recently, preferably in UK and who? Any information would be most appreciated, Thanks, Alex -- I think Peter Jackson knows more than me on this one, as I recall a chamber insert is considered to be a component part of ammunition if it not permanently a part of the firearm, if it is then it is a firearm component and must be proved and you must have authority for it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Wipe out Brushless foam bore cleaner
From: "Adrian Burdett", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hope you Steve and all Cybershooters have had a good Christmas? I have been trying to get hold of some of Paul Company Inc. product "Wipe-out" Brushless foam bore cleaner over the past 8 months in the UK. They said they did not have a stockist in the UK in April. They thought Parker-Hale might take up the agent role but PH said they would not. Does any one know where I can get it in the UK or a mail order source in the US? Hope all the Cybeshooters have a Happy, hopliphoba free 2001. Adrian Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
