CS: Crime-Getting the guns off the street!!
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] A police source said they found "enough weapons to start a war" at the semi-detached cottage I seem to recall that some rather large dust-up in 1914 was largely started by a young chap with one pistol... Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Legal-Mercy for boy who cut bullies
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The term we use is 'barrack room lawyer'. Someone who thinks he knows it all, but can't put it into practise. But does that make them wrong? If they have the luxury of being able to sift through law as it was written and find the original meaning, as opposed to the way it has been applied (some would say corrupted), is that a bad thing if it all appears to be going pear-shaped? All very laudable, but I can also see the other side of the coin... Unfortunately, I suspect the patches and modifications to law, illegally placed or otherwise, would take a lifetime to undo even if one had the legal and financial resources to do so, not withstanding the excellent work of the likes of Mike Burke, and in the meantime it's business as usual. So, even if IG had a sudden revelation of libertarian fervour to restore everybody's freedom to exercise all their rights, unless he was in a very senior position, I suspect his superiors and the vested interests of the establishment would very soon restrict his ability to attain any such senior position... Can there be anyone else on this group who is subject to such intense scrutiny and hatred? IG I can think of a few, but it's probably your turn...G Actually, I would hope that the more intemperate comments I have read are "passionate" debate (even some of the handbag throwing) rather than hatred. Tim -- If you make statements that you think gun control is wonderful, with little to support the assertion, in front of a group of people who don't think it's wonderful, with libraries full of information that show it isn't, methinks you are going to be villified somehow! I have to say quite honestly that I have met people who can argue with lots of stats and research that gun control is a good thing, but I can only think of three off the top of my head, one was American, one was Dutch, and one was Swiss! I've never met anyone in this country who can argue statistically that our controls make sense, even the Home Office RDS and all their resources do pretty badly at it. The reason being quite honestly that the bulk of our controls don't make sense and things like the handgun ban were based on bigotry, with a flimsy attempt at scientific justification. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-drugs
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] . One thing I do want to say here is that gun crime may have not been a problem pre-1920, but heroin abuse was, why was it banned in the first place? Why did the Chinese go to war to stop it being imported? If I recall my agricultural and medicinal chemistry course unit correctly, heroin was developed much later (40s?) to be a more effective analgesic - and with the intention of being less addictive - than morphineoops. Opium was what the chinese were trying to restrict. Tim (still pedantic) -- Heroin nowadays is extremely pure stuff. I don't know how it compares with simple opium or the 1940s stuff, but it can be smoked and so was opium. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Unity
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good thread. Any presentation of ideas, commercial, academic or otherwise, loses its impact by rambling into details; Statements of common objectives should be short and punchy, and instantly understandable. If those objectives are, for example: Restoration of pistol ownership; Restoration of self-loading rifle ownership; Reform of the licencing system; then they should be stated in the same words from each organisation; different words purveying the same ideas, whilst making a more interesting read, are NOT as memorable as exactly the same words repeated. Any qualifying discussion just detracts from the message. Even the thickest antis en mass can remember the phrase "Ban the..." Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.308 Win Target Rifle Proof
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The following is the text from a proof house document published in the latest NRA Journal. It may have relevence to some list members. Also accompanying it in the Journal are the CIP drawings. (- it's not of much interest to me personally, as my use of this calibre would be rather rare) Tim. --- THE WORSHIPFUL COMPANY OF GUNMAKERS OF LONDON BRITISH PROOF AUTHORITY MEMORANDUM JUNE 1999. .308 Win Target Rifle Proof The effect on chamber pressure of reduced dimensions, not complying with the minimum specified by the CIP, was investigated and quantified by the 'Pressure Trials Consortium' whose report was published in March 1998. This report indicates that pressures can be elevated to potentially dangerous levels with certain barrel/chamber/ammunition combinations. The matter having been raised at a recent CIP Sub-Panel Meeting will be subject to study by a special committee of that organisation. In the meantime, so as to allow proof to continue on barrels not complying with CIP minimum dimensions it was agreed with the NRA that any deviation from the minimum dimensions set by the CIP must be limited so as to ensure that chamber pressures remain within the maximum average allowed (Pt-max) by the CIP of 4150 bar when using CIP approved ammunition that does not exceed an average pressure of 3650 bar. This maximum of 3650 bar is as measured in a CIP pressure barrel using the CIP Radial Transducer method. An attestation that ammunition does not exceed an average pressure of 3650 bar should be obtained from the ammunition supplier or manufacturer. The practical application of data from the Pressure Trials Consortium's report has been applied in setting these limits on deviation for barrel and chamber dimensions. The minimum acceptable dimensions are:- (see page 74 for CIP data) GI- Throat = 0.3085 ( 7.8359 mm) F- Bore = 0.298 ( 7.5692 mm) Z- Groove= 0.3065 (7.7851 mm) These smaller dimensions than permitted by the CIP will be acceptable to the British Proof Authority on the following basis: 1) Certification in writing to the proof house confirming the actual dimensions of G I, F Z on submission for proof 2) The barrel will be marked .308 Win Non Standard as will the dimensions not complying with the CIP minimum, e.g. G l = 0.3085, F= 0.298 Z = 0.3065. 3) A mandatory Proof Certificate will be issued that will show the calibre as .308 win Non Standard, the dimensions not complying with the CIP minimum, and the statement 'Only CIP approved.308 Win ammunition producing a maximum average pressure (Pt-max) of 3650 bar (CIP Radial Method) should be fired in this barrel.' Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-clarissa dickson-wright
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I saw that programme; most interesting: When asked why she had not allowed the antis a word in at the hare coursing, the producer said they had planned to, but some of the protesters had started shouting "one fat lady dead, one to go", so they didn't approach them. Picking off crows by falconry was fascinating, in the most recent edition. Tim. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ah, there we go, we can have a Christmas Cybershooters' safari, lead by IG as the Professional Hunter, with his advice for the most suitable gun and load; the selected game being: drug dealer; crackhead; armed robber; lethal-joyrider; hot burglar; and armed loony (including any authorised person who has thrown a mental shoe). Top prize: to be mounted and stuffed by some of the iffier inmates of your elected maximun security prison. Tim. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh, the good old days. When men could go shooting whilst high as a kite on opium, get pissed, carry a flick knife and screw a bird without being bankrupted by the government, then have a fight on the way home. All in the same day as well. Sheer bliss. You've been to Rose Hill and Barton of a weekend, then? G Tim -- Actually I thought his comment about Gotham City was more amusing, he must have a beat in a fairly safe area of the country, I suggest he comes to Walsall on a Saturday night, or Blakenhall or Lozells. Within 1000 yards of my office there has been one murder, two attempted murders (one of whom was a WPC), one armed robbery, at least two shootings and more assaults that I care to mention. Within a mile there was a smack dealer who was ambushed by two guys with sawn-off shotguns and murdered only a few months ago. Welcome to the planet Walsolia, inhabited by beings who breath carbon monoxide, live on heroin, and procreate in the Inland Revenue building's car park. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Mohammed Al Fayed
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mohamed al Fayed put up this offer earlier this year, holding a similar level of respect for most ministers, shadow ministers and senior MPs, to that held by shooters, hunting folk, truckers and anybody else who has been alienated by HMG. The chief difference is that he's got buckets of cash, and can therefor attempt to do something about it with a bigger financial stick than we have. You could probably contact him via Punch, details from www.punch.co.uk , or via Harrods. Tim -- What's the party called? "The let-anyone-immigrate-who-has-loads- of-money-party"?G Not that I actually have a problem with that view, I think Canada has the best system of immigration. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Animal rights activists get upset, for a change
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are some good hunting cartoons around already, particularly an old Donegan: A large mounted stag's head hangs over a fire place. In front stand two gentlemen in evening dress, holding drinks. The stag has a great toothy grin on its face and on gent is looking up at it saying "I'm not too proud of that one. He thought I was taking his picture." You fix the processing of .gifs or .jpgs through the gateways, and I'll start working on a cartoon strip... - I suppose there's the website though... - whilst occasionally indulging in anthropomorphism in animals ( - and traffic cones come to that - ), I am also all for seeing more high velocity lead characteristics in animals, either if they are pests, or more especially (preferably as well) if they are to end up on my plate surrounded by vegetables and gravy. Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-Homeopath's killer may have psychic grudge
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This incident rather invites the comment: - the victim couldn't have been all that psychic then Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-police corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does anyone know any person who has justifiably had a cert revoked? I wager that no one will admit it here! (as it seems the overiding view is that anyone should be able to carry anything they want at any time and at any place.) It would be a fine line between whether the FAC lapsed, or whether it was revoked, but the person chucked out by a club I belong to no longer has it as far as I know. With a bit of effort, I could find out for sure, or IG could contact me off list and use his resources to do so. The person concerned seemed reasonable enough to start with - a bit exuberant perhaps - but he took a couple of years to cause the club major concern. Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Animal rights activists get upset, for a change
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] "You have to question the Queen's moral judgement when she is seen to be enjoying killing innocent creatures." -- What's that word for people who see human characteristics in animals? To answer you question, the first word that comes to mind is 'arse h--e', but the more commonly accepted term -- used in polite company -- is anthropomorphism. Actually, some of us who see human characteristics in animals, and vice versa, prefer to be called "cartoonists" (...but I'm sure I've been called ET's first suggestion by various victims in the past G). Animals are not innocent or guilty of anything, I can't remember the last time a pheasant was in the witness box. See above. Hmm...that conjures an interesting image. Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] As for examples of iffy FAC holders, a club I belong to chucked one out some years back: - not a very responsible individual, who brought some unsavoury friends in on a few occasions and left large numbers of "inaccurately placed holes" after each visit. He was definitely one of the there's_something_about_him types, though this took some time to surface. When his membership expired and no attempt was made to renew, the local constabulary were asked to look after his pistols (which had been stored in the club's armoury) until such time as he might be deserving of their return. Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-innocent animals
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There was a monkey from a shipwreck that was hanged in Sunderland in the 1790's for being a Frenchman. Perhaps that was an innocent animal. That was Hartlepool. It was apparently thought to be a spy and tried, its gibberings being assumed to be French (a bit like Celine Dion, only she ought to be hanged as a French Canadian). If you ever want to get close attention whilst up there, just shout "Who hung the monkey?" (sic). Tim. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-The Gun Control Network
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] These MPs deserve a favour from us - they deserve to be chucked out and into the real world where people have to work for a living. I voted for the "Anyone but David Mellor" Party in Putney last time and was delighted when he was ignominiously rejected by the electorate even though I am a natural Tory - I would cheerfully vote for the late Screaming Lord Sutch if it would help to dump out of Parliament any MP who supports gun control. Well if you fancy selling your soul, there's always Mohammed al Fayed's offer to support (upto about 300) independent candidates to try to displace some of the current chunks in the septic tank of HMG Tim . Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I also have trouble with the concept of "I trust you with this but not that" as steve experienced with variations for collecting. In my case I had a sec.1 shotgun that I was prohibited from using for clay pigeon shooting! I fully understood the law and the home office guidance but not only was I disturbed by the insane logic expressed by various officials but I was also deeply disturbed by the fact that they did not see anything wrong or bizarre about the situation. I think we all find this situation rather silly. With the qualification that some people will not be physically capable of controlling some firearms, why shouldn't non-prohibited persons use any kind of firearm (or any other thing) if there is no additional danger resultant from it's use in suitable conditions? You ask if we know of any way to judge character, are you asking members of this list to get into denouncing shooters in the same way as the police in other authoritarian regimes use public denunciations of individuals and groups oppress those they don't agree with? I wouldn't dare to pass judgement on another persons character. If I did, give me a reason why I shouldn't start with you? Or do you only see yourself as the stone thrower? Personally, I have always regarded it as the duty of every club member to judge the character of fellow shooters to a limited extent. As an instructor it tends to happen automatically, watching the novice victims that you are prodding and poking into position, but up to the point where everybody is comfortable with everyone else, you will always be keeping an eye on your fellow shooters' behaviour, however subconsciously. Poor old IG just has to do it to complete strangers faster and more overtly... Tim -- Talking about variations, West Midlands Police allow me to possess 9mm ammunition for target shooting, but they won't let me collect it, because, wait for it, I have a gun in which I could use it, so it couldn't possibly be safe to let me collect it, because I might violate the condition by shooting it. Oh yes, I'm a really dodgy character I am. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Crime-cameras and others
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] How do you spot these people? One way, they use cliches like " If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about." These same people presumably would have told Steven Waldorff not to worry about those annoying little bits of metal that were inconveniently tearing through his body, as he'd done nothing wrong... Tim : \ Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-armed police raid wrong house
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] A Scotland Yard spokesman confirmed that armed officers have raided the couple's house in search of a gunman who was threatening to kill himself. Hmm.. man threatens to kill himself - So the objective of raiding the house with armed people was...? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-robotic deer
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I found this quite funny in this week's Time magazine: Tim. Steve Lopez's America Michigan Bambi's Got a Little Secret Poachers may find this venison tough to swallow - WE CRAB AND CROUCH in the brush, low to the ground in the woods of Michigan. Deep, deep in the woods. Patient, silent, dressed as trees, we stalk our prey. Not the mighty bear or the trophy buck but an animal far more dangerous, and dumber than a bucket of rocks. The poacher. A white pickup slides to a Halt the driver spotting a white-tailed doe and a buck in the brush off Sucker Creek Road in Alcona County. The deer are on private property, so if this hacker grabs his rifle and takes a shot, he's under arrest. Bob Mills, my partner, radios to our backups, Sergeant Pete Malette and Officer Warren MacNeill, who are hiding in a nearby grove. 'We've got a looker," Mills tells them. The driver is backing up slowly, so as not to scare the deer away before he can get a clear shot. What he doesn't know, the poor sap, is that the deer are not real. They're robodeer. Yes. Robotic deer. Who can compete with American ingenuity? Malette just had a funeral for a buck that took so many bullets in the line of duty - more than 100 in seven years - they called him Sluggo. All across the country, conservation officers use mechanical Bambis, most of them made by a Wisconsin taxidermist, to nab poachers. The deer don't gallop through the woods or eat prize rhododendrons. Only their heads and tails move. But that's all it takes. "You can't believe the look on a guy's face," Malette says, when a brawny hunter discovers he has just blown holes in a stuffed animal with AA batteries in its head. Mills gives me a cue to flick the two joysticks that make my deer's head swivel and her tail twitch from 45 m away. This would be easier if not for the camouflage hat the officers gave me. With a curtain of dangling burlap strips, it looks like Bob Marley has joined a militia. My doe's head may be spinning around like something out of The Exorcist for all I know. 1 can't see through the dreadlocks. The driver may not know whether to lock and load or call a priest. But he's still watching. Go ahead, tough guy. Show some courage. Some poachers have argued entrapment, but Malette knows of no one who's got off on that defense, because the typical charge is trespassing, carrying a loaded weapon or shooting out of season, which can cost up to $500 in fines and 90 days in the brig. And he's come across some real All Stars. The Hemingway wannabe who wet his pants when he got caught. The jughead who was nabbed twice in one day. Malette uses a wild-turkey de- coy too, and had one cowboy go after it with a.357 Magnum. We're talking National Rifle Association Dream Team. But the all-time champ was the Lions Club president who asked Malette to bring a decoy to their fleeting. 'They were laughing, and the president said, 'WhoÆs going to take a shot at this thing?"' Three days later Malette had the decoy on a stakeout. Guy drives up, gets out with his rifle and blasts away. The Lions Club president. And that was back in the '80s, when the decoys had no moving parts. Brian Wolslegel, the Mosinee, Wis., taxidermist, with a former partner began experimenting with moving parts several years ago. He sells 200 to 300 robots a year at about $800 a pop. In the past six years, conservation officers from 45 states and Canada have bought Wolslegel's robotic elk, turkey, deer and bear. Wolslegel glues real animal hides to polyurethane molds, cuts off the heads and installs batteries and robotics, then slides the heads back on. (The very process, oddly enough, that's used to make presidential candidates.) "I'm backed up about 50 orders right now," says Wolslegel. He sells almost half the robots to hunters, who use them as decoys. And I'm backed up deep, deep in the woods of northern Michigan, stalking the ultimate game. I flick my doe's tail and turn her head so she's staring down the guy in the white pickup. A rookie mistake, maybe. So many poachers have been bagged, theyÆre taking a closer look now, and this guy just got wise to us. He hits the gas and disappears. No problem. We're on Sucker Creek Road after all. I crouch. 1 adjust my dreadlocks. Next guy down the road is mine. TIME, NOVEMBER 13 2000 Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Artists Rifles
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] A few years ago I donated a trophy box that I had acquired from an antiques fair to the Artists Rifles Club for their display cabinets. It was a small walnut box, approx. 5" x 7", with a blue baize lining, which probably originally contained a .22" four barrel Sharps. On the lid was a rectangular silver plaque with an 1864 London hallmark. The plaque was engraved with the following: 1st Middlesex Engineer Volunteers 2nd Art Students Company Presented by H.C.Crosbie Esq..er (final er raised as superscrpt - Tim) for highest score at 200, 300 600 Yards Won by SAPPER GOEPEL July 1864 I don't suppose 21 SAS use Sniders or Sharps either. Tim. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-how to deal with roadkill
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I had a rather unfortunate incident with a fox when on my way to my first day at a new pistol club ten years ago. I was driving my Hillman Minx (sixties classic car - braking distance of a pocket battleship) and having taken a wrong turning, found myself alone on a country road heading past a small hamlet at about 45mph. Suddenly a dog sized animal came bolting out and disappeared under the front of the Minx with a loud bang - and reappeared lying in the road several dozen yards back from where I stopped. Walking back to it, I found a rather beautiful vixen, gasping its last, but still alive enough to warrant me fetching the entrenching tool handle from the boot of the car with a view to a finishing tap on the bonce. To my relief it was dead by the time I got back to it. Next thought was; are you supposed to report dead beasties? and I supposed it would be common courtesy to let the people in the nearest house know, rather than leave them to find some festering carcase some time later, and to be honest, I was still a bit shocked. As I approached the house, the one in the direction from which the vixen had come, what do I see on the front door? A fox shaped knocker: "Oh Shit, I've killed the family pet" thinks I, timorously knocking on the door, which is answered by a chap who is rather taller than me... When I told him what had happened, he wasn't terribly concerned - it wasn't their fox - and said he'd deal with the body, and pointed me in the right direction to where I was supposed to be going. He also said how pleased his neighbours would be, as the foxes had just taken out all their chickens on the previous night Tim. Oh, and it was unfortunate because the original number plate on my Minx is now S shaped...bunnies don't cause that when you hit them. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-.577/.450 Martini Henry smokeless powder loads
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear 123, (that's a very unusual name, BTW) I have an old Handloader Magazine article (Nov-Dec 1978) by Jim Jukes on just this subject, and it gives the following data: .577-.450 Load Data Powder Charge(grains), Bullet Weight (grains) Velocity(fps) Remarks Gibbs Long Rifle: IMR-4759 27 Lee 400 1,172 Mild load Blue Dot27 Lee 400 1,422 Blue Dot good with lighter bullets Unique 16 Lee 400 1,124 Light recoil Green Dot16 Lee 400 1,094 Nice-shooting Red Dot 16Lee 4001,136 Nice-shooting Herco20 Lee 400 1,272 Efficient load Nobel 100 51 Lee 400 1,390 Some powder left in bore but ignition OK IMR-3031 45 Lee 400 1,424 Powder left in bore - wadding essential Blue Dot 19 (Loverin)457121 475 1,075 Nice load. Accurate Blue Dot 22 457121475 1,220 Very uniform, with wadding Blue Dot 25 457121475 1,374 Powerful, but OK pressure and very uniform velocity IMR-4759 23 457121475990 Very accurate, mild IMR-4759 25457121475 1,109 Very accurate, mild 2400 20 457121 475 1,132 Wadding a great help IMR-4756 20 457121 475 1,082 Very accurate load IMR-7625 18 457121 475 1,069 2-inch 100-yd group from benchrest Herco 20 457121 475 1,213 Good Ignition Unique 6 457121 475 1,197 Duplex load. Clean-burning FFg Black 52 IMR-4759 8.5 457121 475 1,102 Duplex load. Clean-burning FFg Black 50 Nobel 100 51 457121 475 1,378 Only 23 fps velocity spread Nobel 101 45 457121 475 1,342 Only 28 fps velocity spread IMR-303145 (Lyman)457125500 1,582 Plenty recoil. Some powder kernels in bore IMR-4064 50 457125 500 1,529 Unreliable ingition. Wide velocity spreads. Low reading was 1,270 fps. Reloder 737 457125 500 1,416 Unreliable Ignition IMR-475927 457125 500 1,170 Good-shooting load Nobel 101 50457125 500 1,540 Plenty recoil but extraction OK Army Navy Carbine: Blue Dot22 457121 475 1,145 Good load IMR-4227 30 457121 475 1,144 Wadding a must 1877 Enfield Carbine: Blue Dot22 457121475 1,160 Wadding a must IMR-4759 8.5 457121 475 1,042 Duplex load. Clean-burning FFg Black 50 There is also a good article in Target Gun (March 1992) by Geoff Allen on reloading for Martini in 577/450, mainly black powder and pyrodex, but there are some smokeless loads mentioned. Good detail of patching and lubing. Personally, for my 1871 Alexander Henry, I use black powder (80grn TPPH) behind an airmail paper patched 485 grn Henry (Custom Bullets) in NDFS cases, with shirt card overcharge disc and 50:50 beeswax/lard grease cookie and lubing. This is accurate (close to the service load), clean burning (and quite lively!) and I have not had any noticeable corrosion problems. It is also very unpleasent to shoot in a Mk 1 MartiniHenry because of the flat buttplate. The same ammunition in the AH is much less shoulder damage. Pyrodex is more corrosive than BP, but disciplined cleaning will avoid it anyway. If you can't get hold of those articles, I could send/fax them to you if I am in the right mood g I hope this is (a) helpful, and (b) not too scrambled by the mysterious workings of the internet Tim Jeffreys. -- Hmm, let's see if that table can make it through the listbot without being totally garbled! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Modern Pentathlon
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] They must have been very loud air pistols then, because the photo of Kate Allenby shown in Time Magazine earlier this year showed her wearing earmuffs - I'm not sure what the pistol was. Mind you, it was probably an old(ish) picture. Tim : \ Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Land Warrior
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmm What happens when an enemy sniper or FOO captures one of these headsets that so nicely show you where all your own troops are? Tim : ) Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-ignorance is rife
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Today I bumped into a friend who is a Labour party
activist, who wanted to know if I wanted go along to
the local MP-bating - er - question and answer
session this evening.
Knowing some of my shooting connections, he then
commented on what a good result the British medals in
the Olympic shotgun disciplines were. When I responded
about how it should stir up the antis by showing shooting
in a good light, he agreed, but then said that he still
thought the handgun ban was a good thing, because it had
removed them from people who had them for the wrong reasons.
As my hackles rose, rather than thumping him, I said to
him that I was one of those people, and that my shelves
were littered with medals and trophies for pistol shooting,
which I could no longer do in this country.
To my utter dispair, he replied that he thought I was
alright, because it was the "other ones" that were banned
and that I could still use mine in clubs, couldn't I ?
I set him straight
He was quite shocked to learn the truth, and agreed that
it was a vote grabbing exercise, destructive without
practical merit, while violence with illegal firearms is
rising, and now knows why we don't have an Olympic
pistol shooting team to bring back a bag of medals...
This chap isn't stupid, but after 2 years he was still
under the impression that pistols were still legal for
target shooting, and it was only the "other" (whatever
that may mean) ones that were banned. How many other
people are out there still under this impression?
Now one less, at least...
Tim : {
Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org
List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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CS: Crime-Bullets stop Lada's race against Putin
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wow! I've got one of those... Does anyone know where I can get some bullet-proof tyres...? (- oh, and some petrol) Tim ( looking at his Lada in an entirely new light) -- What's the difference between petrol and paraffin? There's no "f" in petrol! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Olympics
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are some reasonable bits about pistol shooters in the Time magazine Olympic preview edition (Sept 11). Nice article on Ralf Schumann, German rapid fire pistol shooter, who designed the pistol he uses; pretty colour picture and no sensationalism. Dramatic, but not over-the-top full page black and white picture of Kate Allenby, British modern pentathlete, in practice mode. Nothing anti mentioned or implied. Makes a pleasant change. Tim : ) Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-A bit of light relief
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] How about parliamentary intercourse? involuntary congress? statutory sodomy? bureaucratic buggery? and it, of course, wasn't between consenting adults, but under duress, so it would constitute some act of rape: regulatory ravishment? state violation? cabinet abuse ( - by the defiling cabinet)? Oh dear.. Tim. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Anonymity
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] By posting on this site you are taking part in a public debate. If you do not like it, then it may indeed be appropriate for you to "Stay with the professionals" and indulge in the Internet equivalent of funny handshakes in your own increasingly isolated little world. Regardless of the perceived bias or otherwise of "IG" and Mitch 's points of view, I think the list would be much the poorer without them. Although email gives a certain anonimity, it still takes a reasonable strength of character to defend your opinion at the risk of having it shot at by dozens of very angry people. Many of their opinions are bound to be coloured by the dregs of humanity with whom they come into contact daily, so like any group of "common purpose" there is going to be a feeling of "us and them", just like all us paranoid shooters have...g I have several non-shooting friends who are serving police officers - there is some definite "us and them", but they seem normal people to me - and it does make for interesting conversation. If the list was limited to only those who had the time and resources to have total perspective in 20 20 vision on all firearms issues then there would be no debate, no education, and the content would certainly be a lot less colourful (wouldn't it Dave). As for attitude, the only real piece of deliberate police licencing obstruction I have experienced personally is the following: I recall handing in my first application for a shotgun certificate; having just walked three miles to get to the police station, I naively expected in my law-abiding enthusiasm to just hand over the bits required on the form and the cheque. It was a Saturday afternoon, and the local football team were playing at home. As I walked up to the front desk, there was a radio on monitoring local events and it became apparent that a colleague of the chaps at the desk had just been clobbered and injured by a follower of the "beautiful game" - not a good start. - So, up walks muggins with shiny application form and payment, to be greeted by a very large, very displeased person, who, after scanning through the correctly completed form, asked me to supply the "height" of the person of good character (my local vicar). Well I didn't know, and at 17, I wasn't going to argue with a police sargeant who, as a figure of authority, obviously knew the Law far better than I did. Suffice it to say I obtained this spurious information, and with another six mile round trip dutifully supplied it and the correct items to a rather bemused (different) officer some days later... Tim : ) Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
