CS: Pol-Serfs' Privileges Restored
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jmcnair said: Well Kenneth if what you say is true then it looks like there is absolutely no point in voting at all doesn't it ?. Er well, to the best of my recollection what I said was true. I'm not sure just what you mean. The whole point was that you should vote for the candidate who you have personally verified would be most likely to support us. If you are confronted by all antis then just maybe Conservative is the least worst as a higher percentage of the party are pro compared to the other parties. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Serfs' Privileges Restored
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kenneth Pantling wrote. Sorry James but you can't count on the Tories. I would say that, faced with a choice of candidates that are all anti, the Tory is probably the least worst choice but I go with Steve. Pick your candidate and then vote for him regardless of party. ___ This may well be the best and the only thing to do now, but doing that alone will not get us anywhere whilst the antis continue to lobby parliament "unhindered". Is there not a way to convince MPs of all parties that it is their prime duty to protect the rights of minorities and that voting in favour of anything just because the majority seems to want it, or more probably cannot be bothered to even express an opinion, is neither just nor democratic? Parliament should adopt a procedure that would require them to prove (in a court of law if necessary) that a ban would be in the public interest. Had they had to prove a connection between pistol shooting fraternity and Dunblane they would not have been able to do so and they certainly could not prove that the ban was in the interset of public safety. If all that the MPs are prepared to do is follow the popular opinion that we certainly do not need them at all. A team of efficient secretaries could hold endless referenda and simply collate the results and issue orders!!! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Serfs' Privileges Restored
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Alder Hey Hospital bodysnatching-by-degrees scandal reminds us that there are some extremely unsavoury things going on in our society not very far beneath the surface. I will be interested to see if anything that was being unofficially done with the body parts emerges. Either the Dunblane Massacre was a paedophile scandal, or it was a firearms scandal. I think there were a lot of people not wanting it to be a paedophile scandal - because they were and are paedophiles - and they got the result they wanted. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Serfs' Privileges Restored
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alex wrote: Is there not a way to convince MPs of all parties that it is their prime duty to protect the rights of minorities 1. I wouldn't agree that it is their prime duty. IMHO the prime duty of gvernment is to facilitate. It should provide for the population that which they are totally unable to provide for themselves either individually or through group enterprise. I would probably include in this such things as national defence, foreign policy, major public works of infrastucture (sewers etc.) and care for those who simply are unable to care for themselves. Specifically it should pass as few laws as possible and shouldn't interfere in individuals lives. Protection of minorites should be the function of a constitution and a defence AGAINST government administered by the courts. 2. Also those in public office should have nooses around their necks. It serves to keep them upright. Not original but I don't know the source. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Serfs' Privileges Restored
From: "James McNair", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want to put it that way then yes , is there really an alternative ?. -- Yes, vote for the most pro candidate there is, who is standing! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Serfs' Privileges Restored
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well Kenneth if what you say is true then it looks like there is absolutely no point in voting at all doesn't it ?. At present I have a Lib Dem MP and she has admitted to me that although she knows nothing about shooting had she been in the 'House' at the time she would have voted for a ban. Where do we go from here with people like that representing us ??. -- Some of these people do come around if you bend their ears long enough. I told my MP I didn't vote for him at the last election and why. Then I told him I voted UKIP at the European election after that election, and soon it does sink in when the issue comes up that they had better support us. It doesn't take much, really. If every time the subject of shooting comes up they think: "Oh, those people come to see me about that all the time" and there is no counter view being presented to them, they are going to be more inclined not to get us mad. I doubt you will ever get an anti MP going 100% pro, but you can get an anti to become ambivalent. It's just human nature. It's harder to ignore a subject if it's personal to you, and you need to make sure your MP knows who you are and what you think. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
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From: "matthew.wright7", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I understand your points Steve and in many ways we are agreeing on strategy. Lets not sully the airwaves with the foul word Mellor who I wouldn't trust to sit the right way round on the toilet. Yes in theory we should "grill" all the candidates and some of us have been doing this and more will do so with others as we approach this election. You rightly say the Tories introduced a number of restrictions on shooting and it sticks in our throats. Two points about this, firstly the tories have been in power in long cycles which included tragedies - I dread to think what firearms would be left to debate about if Labour had been in power 18 years. Secondly after the ridiculous restrictions brought in on SLR's and pistols I didn't notice that many join the parties, become active branch workers or candidates despite some of us advocating this. The whole point I am making is that a political strategy breaks into two stages, a long term one of engaging and influencing (this has not been done properly by us, although BTW has been done by antis) and secondly a short term one which is not ideal and is more about booting the ass of those in power while making it known to the opposition who gave them a chance. I stress I'm not trying to advocate just voting Tory, if the main opposition in a constituency was Plaid for example I would have no problem with that. Yet many of the Lab and Lib Dem lot are antis and they work together. Given that a proper strategy has not happened the approach has to be more bangs for your bucks in nature. Time is limited, some of us (and correctly you Steve) were pushing things months ago knowing that an election was on the way. We're now going into Feb and In May this Govt aims to become a serial Govt and is changing the rules stealthily to keep it in power. Its that simple and I often wish we Brits cut the crap and were a bit more simplistic, definate and focused like our friends over the pond. Yet again I say get out there, join parties, get involved, link with other concerned groups and as Steve says grill 'em proper and vote accordingly. Matthew Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
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From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] So if David Mellor was not typical of the Tory party what then of Michael Forsyth, Sebastian Coe, Michael Howard, etc. etc. It makes one wonder if these individuals are "not typical" of the Tory party why the 1997 Firearms Act still had a majority of Conservative MP's voting for it in the Commons. Even WORSE is to examine the list of the hereditary Tory Peers who remain in the House of Lords and look at their voting record on the handgun ban! Yet, probably to a man, they will nearly all vote to protect hunting, their sport. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
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From: "James McNair", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Tories may have been the party that enacted the ban on handguns , however , do you think that they would have acted that way had it not been for Labour electioneering on the back of Dunblane ?. They had their hands forced. I certainly don't think there would have been a ban had the government not been near the end of its term and heading for an election. What you say about individual MP's is rifght and if you do have an MP who is willing to listen and is not bound by party dogma and the whip then your'e a lucky man .But I think that these are rare birds nowadays. Besides Steve we've tried all this 'talking' before and it got us no where then and I honestly don't see any reason to think it might be different now , although it should be. -- So you are saying we should blindly vote for the party that gave us the Firearms Act 1982, Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 1981, Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988, Firearms Acts (Amendment) Rules 1992, etc. when they were under virtually no pressure whatsoever? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Serfs' Privileges Restored
From: "matthew.wright7", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve wrote: I have to say a partly agree on the second point, but as I have been saying for umpteen years now and I am echoed by John Swift in the latest BASC magazine, don't vote by _party_, vote by _candidate_. And don't sit there hoping that one of them will be okay, figure out who the most likely person to win is and talk them around. Theoretically this sounds fine and I generally agree where plenty of time has been allocated to the task, but I think it doesn't quite work like that in the current situation. Parties have particular cultures and attract particular people, changing that involves a longer term commitment by people becoming active long term members in the branches etc. Simply asking a PPC his view on something is limited because: a) most Labour and Lib Dem ppc's will be against you (this is not a party political point merely a statement of fact), b) most of those that only indicate mild sympathy or some degree of support are lieing (I base this on hard experience over years), c) the only ones to trust are the ones that publicly and strongly speak out for you when they gain power (I stress again only 6 Labour MP's have done so re shooting and 2 re hunting). The Tories were stupid after Dunblane but Blair also deliberately electioneered on the issue. The Tory leadership before the 97 election bottled out on various issues and went too far in restricting pistol shooting, but many Tory MP's strongly rebeled against this policy by defying their whips. I know this sounds party political but many Tory MP's are supportive of us and I feel that a vague idea that we try to identify what all the party candidates really think so close to an election is impractical. As I said before there is no quick fix if we have not engaged fully in the party branches, an aim I've been pushing for years including on this site. This is only more so when candidates toe party lines and labour is instinctively very anti. I think Labours majority has to be severly curtailed, this means voting for the main opposition to the Labour ppc unless the said opposition candidate is a raving anti. The focus should be on rural areas and common threads and links should be forged between groups who want the Labour guy out. I stress I'm not saying this simply because I don't like the Labour party or some of their ideals. I am saying this because they are agin us and the utter arrogance and contempt they display and the blase way they will make decent people into criminals, without a bye or leave, cannot be rewarded. Matthew -- So what? You're saying we should all vote tory? Mellor and all? The only way to do it that I've seen work is to grill each candidate, then come up with a list of who to vote for. You don't need to rely solely on what they've told you, you can look back at their voting records in many instances as almost no candidates to be an MP who have a realistic chance of winning are complete political novices. Look, I appreciate what people have said in their emails, i.e. odds are long, it's difficult etc. but what is the realistic alternative? There isn't one as far as I can see, short of emigrating. No one makes a greater mistake than he who does nothing because he can only do a little, as Edmund Burke put it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
