Show me the WATER!!
Miracle or Science? A few days ago, I was told about a product that changes the molecular structure of water from H2O to H3O.OH. In youth, our body naturally converts H2O to H3O.OH, but this phenomenon diminishes (naturally and unnaturally) as we age! H3O.OH's role is to continually rejuvenate the body at the cellular level by cleansing, detoxifying and fortifying our entire systems! Just drinking the water has really changed some lives. Another So-Called Miracle Product? Same thing I thought until I learned that this SAME product has been used and distributed in Korea for over 8 years, and is just now coming to America. Get on a live daily call and hear these stories of what has happened to some people just by drinking water! This is the best water we know of to drink! Amazing! This is the first time I heard of a company with a 95% reorder rate WITHOUT obligating members to pay monthly! Why? This product seems to promote the well being of the human body so fast, for so little... AND you get paid even when you do not order! NO MONTHLY AUTOSHIP REQUREMENTS!!! Change your Water Change your Life! TESTIMONIALS WE HAVE HEARD: > Gray hair returning to natural color > New hair growth on scalp > Blood sugar readings returning to 120 > Increased energy > Scars disappearing > Skin smoothing out > Skin rashes disappearing and so much more... And this is happening in WEEKS, not months or years! Skeptical, but curious? We understand. Please email me with the words "Show Me The Water" for a link to the web site and a call schedule. Send E-mail HERE All you need is a U.S. shipping address to become a distributor. This is an 8 year old company! Not another Fly by Night! I look forward to hearing from you soon. Tim Gilpatrick 303-655-9944 To unsubscribe click here
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
R. A. Hettinga wrote: . . . Right, though I'm sure you're wishing it wasn't. Again, crime, illegal markets if you will are piddly bits of pocket fluff in the global economy. $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. Criminal activity is in the tens of billions, max, a year. . . . Um, that $4 trillion didn't move around in trucks speeding on highways. It's just a bunch of marks on hard drives and very little money actually changed owners. Already electronic. Already secure. Extremely mobile. As the article excerpted below states, in 2001 there was about $620 billion dollars in US currency out there somewhere and 65% was in $100 dollar bills. = . . . Why hasn't paper and metal currency already gone the way of the horse and buggy? With credit and debit cards, online banking, and so on, why isn't the demand for currency steadily shrinking to zero? This from the IMF quarter newsletter Finance in the article The Surprising Popularity of Paper Currency by Kenneth S. Rogoff at http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2002/03/rogoff.htm which continues: Curiously, all prognostications about Internet money to the contrary, there is not a shred of evidence that the public is about to give up currency in the United States, Europe, or Japan. Indeed, evidence of the reverse is stunning. Let's start with the United States. At the end of 2001, currency per capita (held by the public) exceeded $620 billion, or roughly $2,200 for every man, woman, and child. I don't know about you, but I usually don't carry one-tenth that much currency in my wallet, nor does my brother Harry. Moreover, over 65 percent of it was held in $100 bills (the largest denomination), which means that the typical American family should be holding sixty $100 bills. Yet Federal Reserve Board surveys find that, on average, the typical American family does not hold even a single $100 bill! Where is the missing money? Some of it can be found in obvious places like supermarket cash registers, but only a very little, according to extensive government surveys. In fact, surveys of domestic households and businesses can account for only 5 percent of the U.S. currency in circulation. Where is the rest, the other 95 percent? A big chunk is probably held abroad, though estimates vary wildly from 30 percent to 75 percent (my 1998 Economic Policy article estimated 50 percent). Even if the number is at the high end, say, 75 percent, that still leaves $2,200, held domestically within the United States, for every family of four. Economists presume that most of this cash can be found in the 'underground economy.'
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- At 9:30 PM -0700 on 5/13/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems to me that most of our economy is arguably illegal. Fine. Document that, please. Show me statistics. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, right? $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. Much of it illegal. Fine. How much. Say it with numbers, please. For example some large proportion of the capital formed in Ireland sneaks out, and then re-enters in the guise of foreign capital. No problem. How much, exactly? Even a reasonable estimate will do nicely, if you can point to actual data. The biggest number I've heard for money laundering worldwide for instance, over the last 6 years ago since Black Unicorn threw it around at DCSB in 1996, is a mostly made up number in the several hundred billion-dollar annual range. Compared, again, to, regulated, monitored, bank-to-bank foreign exchange of several *trillion* dollars a *day*, it's chicken feed. Illegal drugs are probably a few tens of billions of dollars a year. Timmy Leary quoted $50 billion in the early 80's at the height of the Columbian cocaine boom. I'll take triple that, now, just for fun. Chicken feed compared to the global commercial drug market. Money laundering and drugs are probably the largest illegal businesses. The rest is, again, chicken-feed in comparison to even that. Frankly, the amount of formerly illegal business now declared legal, in a gross sense, has gone up dramatically in the last 10-15 years, think most of Eurasia, for instance, and the number of de-regulated businesses increases that amount exponentially every year. Wait until various moslem dictatorships are freed, and you'll see even more. We're legislating crime out of statistical significance, just by making most of it legal, and in spite of the increase of financial crime legislation in the G-7, even before 9/11. Legitimate Internet commerce, boom, bust, or no, is going to be so huge that it will completely swamp the ability of governments to control business at all, much less their own economies and currencies, and, frankly, it can't happen soon enough for me. The pointy end of the stick isn't illegal business. It's anyone who wants to sell anything over the internet, particularly if it's anything that is *transported* over the internet, which, in a geodesic economy, will be the only stuff that matters. Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 7.5 iQEVAwUBPOCkdMUCGwxmWcHhAQGbvwgApTqp1zOtoVX8/WRrirtJeOVvW7mO37U4 pkqXBmS3UuBv3JDySwcNv5rlqBhigO+DNmMtDWbosTg9tbmftKtVCK4ikmTbXMu7 JOS9T1QrbckwvT7e7NhjOUO8kv/P6tDo8fdlRNuRgLlrfvTKOJSmHiZEM/U3qhoo I0ao8qlsTpq8vVX5UdioZmw/EP/e251BAo4ngvYEfNgocMUNz7ni4fDdeJEVZy2a WawiGsmoPeQ8H8lCAHYPDWcA6PBimbyyiz2IG5F8njCz+WkH0fAm6FCp7QYrfObt 4jCdnl4iVIKkcaM6M9uTLQQqUJg1cEhq4hSQ1LmtiXQKlvUbkq9Rig== =5lP9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Make $1,000 Commissions Per Sale
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Virus discarded
We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a virus according to File::Scan v0.25, a Perl module from CPAN at http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/H/HD/HDIAS This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has been discarded. For information on removing viruses from your computer, please visit http://www.mcafee.com or another virus software company's website. Postmaster Sender : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recipient : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id : 20020514074053.RESP13798.out017.verizon.net@Xhygcbwl Subject: Hello,your password Virus : W32/Klez.gen@MM Original headers: Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4E7ffK28460 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:41:41 -0400 Received: from out017.verizon.net (out017pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.94]) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4E7fRA28384 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:41:27 -0400 Received: from Xhygcbwl ([66.56.233.96]) by out017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP id 20020514074053.RESP13798.out017.verizon.net@Xhygcbwl for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 02:40:53 -0500 From: Ethan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Hello,your password MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=D22oV9qK2t5u4M Message-Id: 20020514074053.RESP13798.out017.verizon.net@Xhygcbwl Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 02:40:56 -0500
Virus discarded
We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a virus according to File::Scan v0.25, a Perl module from CPAN at http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/H/HD/HDIAS This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has been discarded. For information on removing viruses from your computer, please visit http://www.mcafee.com or another virus software company's website. Postmaster Sender : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recipient : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id : 20020514082259.ZIAH11739.out016.verizon.net@Bfhllzdj Subject: Cellpadding Virus : W32/Klez.gen@MM Original headers: Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4E8NOA00528 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:23:24 -0400 Received: from out016.verizon.net (out016pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.92]) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4E8NFA00511 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:23:15 -0400 Received: from Bfhllzdj ([198.77.105.4]) by out016.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP id 20020514082259.ZIAH11739.out016.verizon.net@Bfhllzdj for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:22:59 -0500 From: hpilatic [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cellpadding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=LD0spgZD0B Message-Id: 20020514082259.ZIAH11739.out016.verizon.net@Bfhllzdj Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 03:23:09 -0500
Virus discarded
We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a virus according to File::Scan v0.25, a Perl module from CPAN at http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/H/HD/HDIAS This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has been discarded. For information on removing viruses from your computer, please visit http://www.mcafee.com or another virus software company's website. Postmaster Sender : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recipient : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id : 20020514074053.RESP13798.out017.verizon.net@Xhygcbwl Subject: Hello,your password Virus : W32/Klez.gen@MM Original headers: Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22563 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 02:55:55 -0500 Received: from waste.minder.net ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [66.92.53.73]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22556 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 02:55:38 -0500 Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4E7ffO28459 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:41:41 -0400 Received: from out017.verizon.net (out017pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.94]) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4E7fRA28384 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:41:27 -0400 Received: from Xhygcbwl ([66.56.233.96]) by out017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP id 20020514074053.RESP13798.out017.verizon.net@Xhygcbwl for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 02:40:53 -0500 From: Ethan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Hello,your password MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=D22oV9qK2t5u4M Message-Id: 20020514074053.RESP13798.out017.verizon.net@Xhygcbwl Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 02:40:56 -0500
Tim May joins Trei on SIC list.
Snitch identifier and classifier,SIC list is forced to add Mongo after he dobbed in Jorlin Grabbe.Judas Priest Mongo,what were you thinking!? I used a VISA debit card to buy a $25,000 Ford Explorer. --Tim May Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat. --David Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11 Whoops wrong pompous ass quote,shame it didn't have firestones. The porn trading rings show this. Go after those markets. What are those markets? Recall my .sig from a while back: black markets and unsavory transactions, tax avoidance, and so on. This is what Orlin Grabbe has been targeting. Check his site out. Use Google. And Mongo has the cheek to call Shoate a rodent.Jorlinn if your reading this and want to APster,I'm good for some millicents.This could be humane APster like the funds go for a cat scan of Mongos plaques before we snuff the snitch.
Virus discarded
We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a virus according to File::Scan v0.25, a Perl module from CPAN at http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/H/HD/HDIAS This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has been discarded. For information on removing viruses from your computer, please visit http://www.mcafee.com or another virus software company's website. Postmaster Sender : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recipient : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id : 20020514082259.ZIAH11739.out016.verizon.net@Bfhllzdj Subject: Cellpadding Virus : W32/Klez.gen@MM Original headers: Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22957 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:37:45 -0500 Received: from waste.minder.net ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [66.92.53.73]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22913 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:37:23 -0500 Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4E8NO200527 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:23:24 -0400 Received: from out016.verizon.net (out016pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.92]) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4E8NFA00511 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:23:15 -0400 Received: from Bfhllzdj ([198.77.105.4]) by out016.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP id 20020514082259.ZIAH11739.out016.verizon.net@Bfhllzdj for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 03:22:59 -0500 From: hpilatic [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Cellpadding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=LD0spgZD0B Message-Id: 20020514082259.ZIAH11739.out016.verizon.net@Bfhllzdj Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 03:23:09 -0500
[no subject]
Virus discarded
We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a virus according to File::Scan v0.25, a Perl module from CPAN at http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/H/HD/HDIAS This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has been discarded. For information on removing viruses from your computer, please visit http://www.mcafee.com or another virus software company's website. Postmaster Sender : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recipient : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: AYA. All rights reserved. Virus : W32/Klez.gen@MM Original headers: Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4E9Ao205939 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 05:10:50 -0400 Received: from einstein.ssz.com (cpunks@[207.200.56.4]) by waste.minder.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4E9ARA05886 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 05:10:27 -0400 Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23391 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:24:18 -0500 Received: (from mdom@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23373 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:24:15 -0500 Received: from mailserv.idola.net.id (mailserv.idola.net.id [202.152.0.227]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA23343 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:23:51 -0500 Received: from Galgrl (smg-usr01-57.idola.net.id [202.152.9.185]) by mailserv.idola.net.id (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id g4E997124960 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 16:09:08 +0700 (JAVT) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:09:08 +0700 (JAVT) Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: womens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Old-Subject: CDR: AYA. All rights reserved. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=BI7Q2991661LBYh2WJL85zdk8 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailing-List: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr X-List-Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Loop: ssz.com X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish Subject: AYA. All rights reserved.
Virus discarded
We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a virus according to File::Scan v0.25, a Perl module from CPAN at http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/H/HD/HDIAS This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has been discarded. For information on removing viruses from your computer, please visit http://www.mcafee.com or another virus software company's website. Postmaster Sender : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recipient : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CDR: AYA. All rights reserved. Virus : W32/Klez.gen@MM Original headers: Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23393 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:24:18 -0500 Received: (from mdom@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23373 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:24:15 -0500 Received: from mailserv.idola.net.id (mailserv.idola.net.id [202.152.0.227]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA23343 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 04:23:51 -0500 Received: from Galgrl (smg-usr01-57.idola.net.id [202.152.9.185]) by mailserv.idola.net.id (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id g4E997124960 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 16:09:08 +0700 (JAVT) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:09:08 +0700 (JAVT) Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: womens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CDR: AYA. All rights reserved. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=BI7Q2991661LBYh2WJL85zdk8 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailing-List: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr X-List-Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Loop: ssz.com X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
[±¤°í]ÄÄÇ»Å͸¶¿ì½ºÀÇ ¶¡À» ½Ã¿øÇÏ°Ô ¾ø¾ÖÁÝ´Ï´Ù.
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professor (alleg) threatens entire police force with APster, is facing 10 year bid.
CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 20 Threats to kill 20. Threats to kill A person who, without lawful excuse, makes to another person a threat to kill that other person or any other person- (a) intending that that other person would fear the threat would be carried out; or (b) being reckless as to whether or not that other person would fear the threat would be carried out- is guilty of an indictable offence. Penalty: Level 5 imprisonment (10 years maximum). FROM (1A) Treasonable Offences 9A. Treason (2) Child Destruction 10. Offence of child destruction (3) Repealed 14 11-14. Repealed 14 (4) Offences against the person 15. Definitions 16. Causing serious injury intentionally 17. Causing serious injury recklessly 18. Causing injury intentionally or recklessly 19. Offence to administer certain substances 19A. Intentionally causing a very serious disease 20. Threats to kill 21. Threats to inflict serious injury 21A. Stalking 22. Conduct endangering life 23. Conduct endangering persons 24. Negligently causing serious injury 25. Setting traps etc. to kill 26. Setting traps etc. to cause serious injury 27. Extortion with threat to kill 28. Extortion with threat to destroy property etc. 29. Using firearm to resist arrest etc. 30. Threatening injury to prevent arrest 31. Assaults 31A. Use of firearms in the commission of offences 32. Offence to perform female genital mutilation AT http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/ My lawyer's writing to ask police (sen cont nic Conte) for discovery. We still have a few lawyers,juries and appeal courts here for the time being.
Verba Volant 14-MAY-2002
Verba Volant 14-MAY-2002, Every day a new quotation translated into many languages. _ Quotation of the day: Author - Truman Harry S. English- it's a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it's a depression when you lose your own Albanian- ka rënie ekonomike kur fqinji yt humb punën, depresion kur e humb ti Asturian- ye recensión cuando 'l to vecín pierde 'l trabayu, ye depresión cuando yes tu quien lu pierde Basque- atzeraldia da auzokoa lanik gabe geratzea eta beheraldia da lanik gabe norbera geratzea Bolognese- l'é una rezesiån quand al tô aSvén al pêrd al lavurîr; l'é una depresiån quand t al pêrd té Brazilian Portuguese- é recessão quando o teu vizinho perde o emprego, e depressão quando o perdes tu Bresciano- l'è recesiù quand che el pèrt el laurà el tò visì; l'è depresiù quand che tal pèrdet té Breton- ar resedin eo pa goll da amezeg e labour; un enkadenn eo pa gollez da hini Calabrese- è recessiuni quannu u vicinu tuo perdi lu lavoro;è depressiuni quannu lu perdisi tu Catalan- és recessió quan el teu veí perd el treball; és depressió quan el perds tu Danish- kaldes det recessionen hvis naboen mister jobbet og depressionen hvis det er dig der mister det Dutch- het is recessie wanneer je buur zijn job verliest, het is depressie wanneer je ze zelf verliest Emiliano Romagnolo- u's c'ema recesioun quand' e tu vicioin a perd e' post; depresioun quand' ci tò a perd Estonian- on madalkonjunktuur kui su naaber kaotab töö ja majanduskriis kui kaotad enda oma Ferrarese- l'az ciama recesione quand'al tò vsìn al perd al laör; l'az ciama depresione quand'a t'al perdi ti Finnish- on laskusuhdanne kun naapurisi menettää työpaikkansa ja lama kun menetät omasi Flemish- het is recessie wanneer je buur zijn job verliest, het is depressie wanneer je ze zelf verliest French- la récession, c¿est quand le voisin perd son emploi. La dépression, c¿est quand on se retrouve soi-même au chômage Furlan- 'e jè recession cuant che il to dongje al piert il lavôr; 'e jè depression cuant che tu lu pierdis tu Galician- é recensión cando o teu viciño perde o traballo; é depresión cando o perdes ti German- es ist eine Rezession wenn Dein Nachbar seinen Job verliert; es ist eine Depression wenn Du Deinen eigenen Job verlierst Hungarian- amikor a szomszéd munkanélküli lesz, akkor az recesszió; amikor te leszel az, akkor az depresszió Italian- è recessione quando il tuo vicino perde il lavoro; è depressione quando lo perdi tu Judeo Spanish- resesion es kuando tu vizino piedre su lavoro, depresion es kuando lo piedres tu Latin- remissio est cum vicinus tuus opus amittit, regressio cum tu amittis Leonese- recesión ye cuandu'l tou vecín pierde'l trabayu, depresión ye cuandu lu pierdes tú Limburgian- resêsse, da's as z'ne geboer ze wêrrek kweit ès; deprêsse ès as dich 't zaajn kweit bès Lombardo- l'è recession quand che el tò visin el gh'ha pù de lavorà; l'è depression quand che te ghe n'heet pù ti Mantuan- l'è recesion quand chi 't conosi al perd al post, l'è depresion quand t'al perdi ti Mudnés- l'è recèsiòun quand un conosèint l'armàin disocupè, ma l'è depresiòun quand t'è te a perdèr al lavòr Norwegian- det er nedgangstider når din nabo mister jobben - en depresjon når du mister din egen Occitan- es recession quora ton vesin perd lo trabalh, es depression quora lo perdes tu Papiamentu- ta un reseshon ora bo bisiña perde su trabou i un depreshon ora abo perde di bo Parmigiano- 'é recesión cuando tu sven al perda su lavor, l'é depresión cuando lo perdes tu Piemontese- la recession a l'é cand tò avzin a perd ël travaj, la depresson a l'é cand it lo perde ti Portuguese- é recessão quando o nosso vizinho perde o emprego; é depressão quando perdemos o nosso Reggiano- l'ecpnomia la gira sopa quand armagm disocupee al too visinant; l'an gira piò quand al disocupee t'è tè Roman- è recessione quanno er vicino tuo perde er lavoro; è depressione quanno 'o perdi te Sardinian- si tratat de retzessione cando su bighinu tuo perdet su traballu; de depressione cando lu perdes tue Spanish- recesión es cuando tu vecino pierde el trabajo; depresión es cuando lo pierdes tú Swedish- det är lågkonjunktur när din granne förlorat sitt jobb; det är depression när det gäller dig själv Zeneize- a se ciamma recescion quande o tò vexin o perde o travaggio; deprescion quande ti ô perdi ti _ All languages, please click on this link: http://www.logos.net/owa-l/press.datecorps2.go_to?codice=549 _ To unsubscribe from Verba Volant, please follow this link: http://www.logos.net/owa-l/press.rol_ml.verbavolant1?lang=en and write in the empty field next to unsubscribe the email address that you find after TO: in the Verba Volant emails alternatively write to the following address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] always copying the EMAIL address written after X-RCPT-TO:
trillions a day?
On 13 May 2002 at 18:27, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Right, though I'm sure you're wishing it wasn't. Again, crime, illegal markets if you will are piddly bits of pocket fluff in the global economy. $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? George
Virus discarded
We received a message claiming to be from you which contained a virus according to File::Scan v0.25, a Perl module from CPAN at http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/H/HD/HDIAS This message was not delivered to the intended recipient, it has been discarded. For information on removing viruses from your computer, please visit http://www.mcafee.com or another virus software company's website. Postmaster Sender : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recipient : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-Id : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CDR: Questionnaire Virus : W32/Klez.gen@MM Original headers: Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26567 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:18:45 -0500 Received: (from mdom@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26554 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:17:04 -0500 Received: from blizzard.rdven.lv (blizzard.rdven.lv [195.114.37.2]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26546 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 11:15:19 -0500 Received: from mail.seastar.lv (mail.seastar.lv [195.114.37.133]) by blizzard.rdven.lv (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA11088 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 19:02:00 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from Snddjqvb (unverified [195.114.37.150]) by mail.seastar.lv (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 14 May 2002 18:40:43 +0300 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 18:40:43 +0300 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: you [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CDR: Questionnaire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=A954Wx48uUa0z9K6F8 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailing-List: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Unsubscription-Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr X-List-Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Loop: ssz.com X-Acceptable-Languages: English, Russian, German, French, Spanish
Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
Ken Brown wrote: Er, I hit send prematurely, and I meant to go on to say that I have often used 1 or 200 UKP in folding money - it is easy to do with universal availability of ATMs. [...] Of course that doesn't apply to genuinely expensive items. I'm not sure I ever spend more than maybe 200 UKP (300 USD) in cash at one time. I've bought cars for more than that with cash. (Not $25,000 ones though). But that starts to need to be planned, rather than just withdrawn from an ATM in one go.
Dirty Money
Centre for Research on Globalisation http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/PET108A Dirty Money Foundation of US Growth and Empire Size and Scope of Money Laundering by US Banks by James Petras Professor of Sociology, Binghamton University La Jornada, Mexico, 19th May 2001 Posted at globalresearch.ca 29 August 2001 There is a consensus among U.S. Congressional Investigators, former bankers and international banking experts that U.S. and European banks launder between $500 billion and $1 trillion of dirty money each year, half of which is laundered by U.S. banks alone. As Senator Carl Levin summarizes the record: Estimates are that $500 billion to $1 trillion of international criminal proceeds are moved internationally and deposited into bank accounts annually. It is estimated that half of that money comes to the United States. Over a decade then, between $2.5 and $5 trillion criminal proceeds have been laundered by U.S. banks and circulated in the U.S. financial circuits. Senator Levin's statement however, only covers criminal proceeds, according to U.S. laws. It does not include illegal transfers and capital flows from corrupt political leaders, or tax evasion by overseas businesses. A leading U.S. scholar who is an expert on international finance associated with the prestigious Brookings Institute estimates the flow of corrupt money out of developing (Third World) and transitional (ex-Communist) economies into Western coffers at $20 to $40 billion a year and the flow stemming from mis-priced trade at $80 billion a year or more. My lowest estimate is $100 billion per year by these two means by which we facilitated a trillion dollars in the decade, at least half to the United States. Including the other elements of illegal flight capital would produce much higher figures. The Brookings expert also did not include illegal shifts of real estate and securities titles, wire fraud, etc. In other words, an incomplete figure of dirty money (laundered criminal and corrupt money) flowing into U.S. coffers during the 1990s amounted to $3-$5.5 trillion. This is not the complete picture but it gives us a basis to estimate the significance of the dirty money factor in evaluating the U.S. economy. In the first place, it is clear that the combined laundered and dirty money flows cover part of the U.S. deficit in its balance of merchandise trade which ranges in the hundreds of billions annually. As it stands, the U.S. trade deficit is close to $300 billion. Without the dirty money the U.S. economy external accounts would be totally unsustainable, living standards would plummet, the dollar would weaken, the available investment and loan capital would shrink and Washington would not be able to sustain its global empire. And the importance of laundered money is forecast to increase. Former private banker Antonio Geraldi, in testimony before the Senate Subcommittee projects significant growth in U.S. bank laundering. The forecasters also predict the amounts laundered in the trillions of dollars and growing disproportionately to legitimate funds. The $500 billion of criminal and dirty money flowing into and through the major U.S. banks far exceeds the net revenues of all the IT companies in the U.S., not to speak of their profits. These yearly inflows surpass all the net transfers by the major U.S. oil producers, military industries and airplane manufacturers. The biggest U.S. banks, particularly Citibank, derive a high percentage of their banking profits from serving these criminal and dirty money accounts. The big U.S. banks and key institutions sustain U.S. global power via their money laundering and managing of illegally obtained overseas funds. The URL of this article is: http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/PET108A Published with the permission of the author. For fair use only.
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
-- On 13 May 2002 at 22:34, Richard Fiero wrote: As the article excerpted below states, in 2001 there was about $620 billion dollars in US currency out there somewhere and 65% was in $100 dollar bills. Presumably most of those $100 bills are changing hands in suitcases and brown paper bags, exposing the owners to considerable personal risk in each transaction. However, in many countries, most for example Argentina, the government routinely engages in bank robbery, making the banking system pretty much unusable. Many of those holders of bags of $100 bills would find a quiet electronic version very handy. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG k5Q0ixYnXPGv/XDu2hDgLJoUHo/6YsmFCmLRq9VM 4Ziv9lrQKn6qjtcEQFPjaJcif82ptDYKZhIVWcPVM
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
-- James A. Donald: Seems to me that most of our economy is arguably illegal. R. A. Hettinga Fine. Document that, pease. Show me statistics. Obviously that is a claim that cannot be directly documented, since most people decline to register their business with the department of census and statistics as engaged primarily in illegal activity However every business that I have been involved in, where I have been in a position to know, has been extensively violating some laws in some fashion -- personal anecdotes, where I cannot give details. There are also many sweeping decrees where it is not clear what is intended, or what will be enforced, and one can make a plausible argument that current practice is arguably legal -- but not a very good argument. For example AOL, Verant, Yahoo, and perhaps Microsoft are arguably in violation of COPA. Almost everyone necessarily operates in gray areas, often fairly openly, and wherever I have been in a position to know, most people were in some respects operating in black areas, not at all openly. There are so many laws, that it is impossible to operate a business entirely legally. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, right? What is extraordinary about this claim: If most individuals can rack up multiple felony offenses while scarcely realizing it, think what a pickle the average business must be in. When the federal register is requires a fleet of trucks, when I have committed several hundred years worth of felonies without doing anything that the ordinary middle respectable middle class male would regard as very disreputable, I do not see what is so extraordinary about that claim. Illegal drugs are probably a few tens of billions of dollars a year. Timmy Leary quoted $50 billion in the early 80's at the height of the Columbian cocaine boom. I'll take triple that Add AOL, Yahoo, Verant, and Microsoft to the crips and the bloods. My usenet server has a sign up web page that emphasizes privacy, anonymity, lack of logs, absence of censorship, and completeness of newsgroups -- I get the impression that a large part of their customer base is people downloading child pornography. Frankly, the amount of formerly illegal business now declared legal, in a gross sense, has gone up dramatically in the last 10-15 years In Russia what we saw is not so much legalization, as collapse of enforcement -- the long existing illegal market that kept Stalin's economy going has now wholly displaced the socialist economy, a process that in restrospect was visible under Khruschev, and was visible to me at the time under Brezhnev. A similar collapse seems to be under way in America. Here in America we are in a situation equivalent to the early Brezhnev years. We're legislating crime out of statistical significance, just by making most of it legal, Most legislation makes more things illegal, not more things legal. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Nfak7kEQszUPr9gvDxWe7RF8jWE3evQwcUJgv8mR 4QWiykow35eQRRBIC3Q3w/0KHpuUKp1Aed3l+CSIK
Re: trillions a day?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13 May 2002 at 18:27, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Right, though I'm sure you're wishing it wasn't. Again, crime, illegal markets if you will are piddly bits of pocket fluff in the global economy. $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? George The $4 trillion doesn't actually go anywhere. It's mostly put up as risk-management and exchange tweaking. Like pork bellies, dig? You buy the options but no truck actually comes and unloads a mound of pork on your front lawn. Keep in mind that US currency is US Government debt. The more stashed under mattresses, the less debt has to ever be repaid. As the article mentions, if non-interest bearing currency becomes less popular, then the debt will have to be financed at higher cost through interest-bearing bonds.
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burbclave tech
TCM Wrote: The second is my favorite, by far. Robinson captures the essence of OC's crowds, the surfers, the burbclaves (years before Stephenson's Snow Crash, _also_ set in California!). Hmm. My OC burbclave just installed a laser-barcode scanner to admit cars. (The barcodes are discrete black on black in the visible and work in the IR; in my night vision device the barcode is quite visible.) I haven't seen pizza-carrying teens use dupes of the barcodes to skate inside, but its possible...
Spoliation
Yeah, I know, this is long gone... But... I still thought there would be interest. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Rae Cogar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 7:26 AM Subject: website case Here is a recently reported case from California that found a company guilty of spoliation of evidence by changing information on their website during litigation. One point made by the court in this case is there were no policies or procedures for the updating or deleting of material from the website. You can find this opinion at: http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/cand/tentrule.nsf/4f9d4c4a03b0cf70882567980073b 2e4/cf68f686007991fa88256af1006a9e16?OpenDocument (you will need to cut and paste url) Spoliation Sanctions for Deletion of Web Page The defendant corporation moved to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction, denying minimum contacts with the state of California. The plaintiff offered as evidence a page from the defendant's web site that listed a California office address. While the motion was pending, the California address disappeared from the defendant's web site. Though one employee of the defendant testified that he had deleted the page in routine maintenance, there was no corporate maintenance policy that would explain the deletion. The court granted the plaintiff's motion to enjoin further spoliation and ordered that the defendant pay plaintiff's attorney's fees as a sanction. Pennar Software Corp. v. Fortune 500 Sys., 51 Fed. R. Serv. 279 (N.D. Cal. 2001). Another case for good records management! Rae Cogar, Esq. RCS Consulting Hamburg, NY 716-646-6192 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- On 13 May 2002 at 22:34, Richard Fiero wrote: As the article excerpted below states, in 2001 there was about $620 billion dollars in US currency out there somewhere and 65% was in $100 dollar bills. Presumably most of those $100 bills are changing hands in suitcases and brown paper bags, exposing the owners to considerable personal risk in each transaction. However, in many countries, most for example Argentina, the government routinely engages in bank robbery, making the banking system pretty much unusable. Many of those holders of bags of $100 bills would find a quiet electronic version very handy. . . . As the article points out, $1 million fits in a briefcase nicely but the Euro's largest denomination is 500 which will allow $1 million to fit into a purse. From the article: I am not an expert in cryptography, but I think it may take quite a while to devise an electronic money that guarantees anonymity in the same way that cash does.
RE: trillions a day?
-- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: trillions a day? On 13 May 2002 at 18:27, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Right, though I'm sure you're wishing it wasn't. Again, crime, illegal markets if you will are piddly bits of pocket fluff in the global economy. $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? George Because the money that moves is not the same as the value of the goods that move. Back in the 80's, I worked at Irving Trust, a large, venerable (and since taken-over) major money center bank in NYC (I was literally across the street from the WTC). I worked on telecommunications software. In Federal Funds alone, we typically moved about 100 BILLION dollars a day. That was 15 years ago, on just one system, at just one bank. I was as incredulous as you, until I worked out what was going on - like the tide, the same money was passing through our computers each day. A massive, invisible tsunami of money flows all the way around the world every 24 hours, chasing the sun and the best return. Now there's in image to conjure with. Peter Trei
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Re: trillions a day?
On Tuesday, May 14, 2002, at 08:10 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13 May 2002 at 18:27, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Right, though I'm sure you're wishing it wasn't. Again, crime, illegal markets if you will are piddly bits of pocket fluff in the global economy. $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? Because GDP is a measure (flawed, of course) of _production_, not of money being shipped around. (I'm assuming Hettinga was talking about overall money flows, not just payment for goods purchased, a narrower definition of foreign exchange.) To see this simply, imagine your own annual income of, say, $50,000. (No insinuations intended as to your wealth or lack of it.) You could wire $20K to a bank, wire it again to another bank, wire it againeasy to have a total amount transferred that is many times your annual income. Economists talk about velocity of money and all, but this illustrates the point. The same money is being moved many times. Transactions are not just You grow corn. I pay you for corn. Here is money. I have no idea whether the $4 trillion figure for a day is correct, but it's plausible. Checking with Google, I find this: SWIFT is the industry-owned cooperative supplying secure messaging services and interface software to 7,000 financial institutions in 196 countries. SWIFT carried over 1.5 billion messages in 2001. The average daily value of payment messages on SWIFT is estimated to be above USD 6 trillion. http://www.globalcrossing.com/xml/news/2002/april/02.xml So, this is how the daily money flow can be so large compared to the daily GDP. --Tim May Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- At 10:34 PM -0700 on 5/13/02, Richard Fiero wrote: Um, that $4 trillion didn't move around in trucks speeding on highways. It's just a bunch of marks on hard drives and very little money actually changed owners. Already electronic. Already secure. Extremely mobile. Correct. And it can only be transferred, in very big chunks, from one bank to another, taking at least 24 hours to clear and settle because of still mostly batch-processed bookeeping applications. The stuff we're talking about is much more mobile, it clears instantly, and considerably less expensive, so that ordinary people with an internet connection, and eventually ordinary machines, can pay each other increasingly smaller and smaller amounts as technology evolves. As the article excerpted below states, in 2001 there was about $620 billion dollars in US currency out there somewhere and 65% was in $100 dollar bills. Sure. I've read Rogoff, and Doyle, who he cites, before. Rogoff says nothing new there that everyone in the money business doesn't say already -- and the Bank for International Settlement has much better data, by the way. http://www.bis.org/cpss/cpsspubl.htm is a good place to start. The Kansas City Fed also has a good database, called FRED :-), containing all the various monetary aggregate figures in it going back at least to the turn of the 20th century. *My* point is that there hasn't been implementation of a working bearer-settled internet transaction system yet. I would probably claim that that when it's up and running, and proven to be cheap enough, that the amount of cash in circulation of various national currencies will easily double in 5 years, and go up from there. I also expect that, if it's cheap enough, internet bearer transactions will almost completely replace book-entry settled payment and finance within 25 years. Or at least to the same ratio that book-entry transactions dominate physical delivery of paper bearer instruments today, which, as inadvertently noted above, is pocket lint. Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 7.5 iQEVAwUBPOEfaMUCGwxmWcHhAQF/4wgAtejiMUjA/QnTBqQKDUOxFDT0RsrjVjHb o79rKABKXuW49BL25LSTVpmQFzWUOKdG1Xte/DXDP2IREdPlDphmVvXl/7FnXhoj 4/tWaYSYteqsbA0O3oef5d4vmYDfR6HDzas/nHM3k5S7Nxb2w41bSmaUbkcmFO9W b0muJF1hxdf2Rd5/u7hDccbJJl+OUvjcR6mxW5qlbYlllFDAVAWwpZvIh8/qSpO6 IiCwPdeibbBHI6ixVy28Mo5sMet0XtkHen1FE2Li8jCW+PA+3cu7nxKYjWwXuc/U 9ZJs/x1ugdrmSlwt23s2PLknOcoxEEvRcQF2yoSOtvOwxJg/5J7SUg== =ScL3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Show me the WATER!!
Miracle or Science? A few days ago, I was told about a product that changes the molecular structure of water from H2O to H3O.OH. In youth, our body naturally converts H2O to H3O.OH, but this phenomenon diminishes (naturally and unnaturally) as we age! H3O.OH's role is to continually rejuvenate the body at the cellular level by cleansing, detoxifying and fortifying our entire systems! Just drinking the water has really changed some lives. Another So-Called Miracle Product? Same thing I thought until I learned that this SAME product has been used and distributed in Korea for over 8 years, and is just now coming to America. Get on a live daily call and hear these stories of what has happened to some people just by drinking water! This is the best water we know of to drink! Amazing! This is the first time I heard of a company with a 95% reorder rate WITHOUT obligating members to pay monthly! Why? This product seems to promote the well being of the human body so fast, for so little... AND you get paid even when you do not order! NO MONTHLY AUTOSHIP REQUREMENTS!!! Change your Water Change your Life! TESTIMONIALS WE HAVE HEARD: > Gray hair returning to natural color > New hair growth on scalp > Blood sugar readings returning to 120 > Increased energy > Scars disappearing > Skin smoothing out > Skin rashes disappearing and so much more... And this is happening in WEEKS, not months or years! Skeptical, but curious? We understand. Please email me with the words "Show Me The Water" for a link to the web site and a call schedule. Send E-mail HERE All you need is a U.S. shipping address to become a distributor. This is an 8 year old company! Not another Fly by Night! I look forward to hearing from you soon. Tim Gilpatrick 303-655-9944 To unsubscribe click here
Show me the WATER!!
Miracle or Science? A few days ago, I was told about a product that changes the molecular structure of water from H2O to H3O.OH. In youth, our body naturally converts H2O to H3O.OH, but this phenomenon diminishes (naturally and unnaturally) as we age! H3O.OH's role is to continually rejuvenate the body at the cellular level by cleansing, detoxifying and fortifying our entire systems! Just drinking the water has really changed some lives. Another So-Called Miracle Product? Same thing I thought until I learned that this SAME product has been used and distributed in Korea for over 8 years, and is just now coming to America. Get on a live daily call and hear these stories of what has happened to some people just by drinking water! This is the best water we know of to drink! Amazing! This is the first time I heard of a company with a 95% reorder rate WITHOUT obligating members to pay monthly! Why? This product seems to promote the well being of the human body so fast, for so little... AND you get paid even when you do not order! NO MONTHLY AUTOSHIP REQUREMENTS!!! Change your Water Change your Life! TESTIMONIALS WE HAVE HEARD: > Gray hair returning to natural color > New hair growth on scalp > Blood sugar readings returning to 120 > Increased energy > Scars disappearing > Skin smoothing out > Skin rashes disappearing and so much more... And this is happening in WEEKS, not months or years! Skeptical, but curious? We understand. Please email me with the words "Show Me The Water" for a link to the web site and a call schedule. Send E-mail HERE All you need is a U.S. shipping address to become a distributor. This is an 8 year old company! Not another Fly by Night! I look forward to hearing from you soon. Tim Gilpatrick 303-655-9944 To unsubscribe click here
Show me the WATER!!
Miracle or Science? A few days ago, I was told about a product that changes the molecular structure of water from H2O to H3O.OH. In youth, our body naturally converts H2O to H3O.OH, but this phenomenon diminishes (naturally and unnaturally) as we age! H3O.OH's role is to continually rejuvenate the body at the cellular level by cleansing, detoxifying and fortifying our entire systems! Just drinking the water has really changed some lives. Another So-Called Miracle Product? Same thing I thought until I learned that this SAME product has been used and distributed in Korea for over 8 years, and is just now coming to America. Get on a live daily call and hear these stories of what has happened to some people just by drinking water! This is the best water we know of to drink! Amazing! This is the first time I heard of a company with a 95% reorder rate WITHOUT obligating members to pay monthly! Why? This product seems to promote the well being of the human body so fast, for so little... AND you get paid even when you do not order! NO MONTHLY AUTOSHIP REQUREMENTS!!! Change your Water Change your Life! TESTIMONIALS WE HAVE HEARD: > Gray hair returning to natural color > New hair growth on scalp > Blood sugar readings returning to 120 > Increased energy > Scars disappearing > Skin smoothing out > Skin rashes disappearing and so much more... And this is happening in WEEKS, not months or years! Skeptical, but curious? We understand. Please email me with the words "Show Me The Water" for a link to the web site and a call schedule. Send E-mail HERE All you need is a U.S. shipping address to become a distributor. This is an 8 year old company! Not another Fly by Night! I look forward to hearing from you soon. Tim Gilpatrick 303-655-9944 To unsubscribe click here
Re: Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
Or my favorite 1000 swiss franc notes currently worth about $618 each. DCF Neat! I need to get out more. A thin sheaf of those would add considerable spice to the old slip the envelope out of the inside breast pocket of your suit coat transactions. -- Daniel J. Boone
[no subject]
there are signals coming from washington that something positive is starting to develop --
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
R. A. Hettinga e-said: Compared, again, to, regulated, monitored, bank-to-bank foreign exchange of several *trillion* dollars a *day*, it's chicken feed. On Bob's list, yesterday: About $1.2 trillion in currencies is traded daily, according to the Bank for International Settlements. Regards, Dave Birch. -- == My own opinion (I think!) given solely in my capacity as an == interested member of the general public == mail(at)davebirches.org, http://www.davebirch.org/
Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
--- begin forwarded text Status: U User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1331 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:21:01 +0200 Subject: Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys From: David G.W. Birch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bob Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED], Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED] R. A. Hettinga e-said: What the hell does *live* mean? There are quite a few folks on this planet who 'sell' nothing. They grow their own food, they build their own house. Any many of them live well into their thirties. Regards, Dave Birch. -- == My own opinion (I think!) given solely in my capacity as an == interested member of the general public == mail(at)davebirches.org, http://www.davebirch.org/ --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: trillions a day?
On 14 May 2002 at 13:47, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 8:10 AM -0700 on 5/14/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? You're confusing assets with transactions. Cheers, RAH I'm really not, I'm just wondering what the hell all these transactions are. I understand that in principle I could convert 100 dollars into Euros and back again 100 times to generate 10,000 dollars worth of transactions, but why would I? If I'm under the delusion that the dollar is overvalued, presumably somebody else must be of the opposite opinion for a trade to take place, right? So if I change my mind half an hour later, presumably it's because the dollar went down, right? So the people who thought the dollar was undervalued should be even more confident in their opinion, I would think. Yeah, I know, if the world worked that way stock price graphs would look like smooth slowly varying curves instead of spikey hairy monsters. But still, trillions a day? it just seems incredible to me that there should be that many transactions. George -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
convenience and advantages of cash (Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto)
You can apparently get Canadian $1,000 notes too, not that I've ever seen one. That would be worth almost exactly the same as 1000 swiss francs. If you get a bundle of 50 GBP notes from a bank in the UK they put them in a little sealed bag containing 10 notes (500 pounds). That note collection is convenient for counting etc for larger items also. Largest thing I bought cash was 2,000 GBP for a 2nd hand car some years ago. I did toy with trying to buy a house with paper cash to see if it could be done, but I didn't bother in the end -- but I think that all that would have happened is the seller's lawyer would go to the bank and pay it in to make sure it's good. I've also moved more than 2,000 GBP that between bank accounts and investment accounts in the past -- withdraw from current account 10,000 GBP, walk across the street and pay into another institutions investment account and the money is instantly available to write a check, and accrues interest from that day, rather than 3 days later. The bank charges 20 GBP or more to do the same day transfer electronically (CHAPs), where as the no fee option is BACs and takes 3 working days and they keep the interest on your money while it's moving. Adam On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 01:56:05PM -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: On Tue, 14 May 2002, Richard Fiero wrote: As the article points out, $1 million fits in a briefcase nicely but the Euro's largest denomination is 500 which will allow $1 million to fit into a purse. From the article: I am not an expert in cryptography, but I think it may take quite a while to devise an electronic money that guarantees anonymity in the same way that cash does. Or my favorite 1000 swiss franc notes currently worth about $618 each. DCF
Show me the WATER!!
Miracle or Science? A few days ago, I was told about a product that changes the molecular structure of water from H2O to H3O.OH. In youth, our body naturally converts H2O to H3O.OH, but this phenomenon diminishes (naturally and unnaturally) as we age! H3O.OH's role is to continually rejuvenate the body at the cellular level by cleansing, detoxifying and fortifying our entire systems! Just drinking the water has really changed some lives. Another So-Called Miracle Product? Same thing I thought until I learned that this SAME product has been used and distributed in Korea for over 8 years, and is just now coming to America. Get on a live daily call and hear these stories of what has happened to some people just by drinking water! This is the best water we know of to drink! Amazing! This is the first time I heard of a company with a 95% reorder rate WITHOUT obligating members to pay monthly! Why? This product seems to promote the well being of the human body so fast, for so little... AND you get paid even when you do not order! NO MONTHLY AUTOSHIP REQUREMENTS!!! Change your Water Change your Life! TESTIMONIALS WE HAVE HEARD: > Gray hair returning to natural color > New hair growth on scalp > Blood sugar readings returning to 120 > Increased energy > Scars disappearing > Skin smoothing out > Skin rashes disappearing and so much more... And this is happening in WEEKS, not months or years! Skeptical, but curious? We understand. Please email me with the words "Show Me The Water" for a link to the web site and a call schedule. Send E-mail HERE All you need is a U.S. shipping address to become a distributor. This is an 8 year old company! Not another Fly by Night! I look forward to hearing from you soon. Tim Gilpatrick 303-655-9944 To unsubscribe click here
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
At 10:26 AM +0200 on 5/14/02, David G.W. Birch wrote: Compared, again, to, regulated, monitored, bank-to-bank foreign exchange of several *trillion* dollars a *day*, it's chicken feed. On Bob's list, yesterday: About $1.2 trillion in currencies is traded daily, according to the Bank for International Settlements. Zing. :-). I wonder where the $3 trillion number a day number I've heard from various people over the last 10 years came from. The first time I heard it was from someone at Telerate in 1990 or so... Cheers, RAH The price of error, on a network of scientists, is bandwidth. -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: convenience and advantages of cash (Re: Eyes on the Prize...notthe Millicent Ghetto)
Adam Back wrote: The bank charges 20 GBP or more to do the same day transfer electronically (CHAPs), where as the no fee option is BACs and takes 3 working days and they keep the interest on your money while it's moving. BTW, pedantry: they're CHAPS (Clearing House Automated Payment System) and BACS (Bank Automated Clearing System). Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff
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Re: convenience and advantages of cash (Re: Eyes on the Prize...notthe Millicent Ghetto)
On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 10:38:21PM +0100, Ben Laurie wrote: Actually, the way house buying works (generally) in the UK is that you deposit your money with _your_ solicitor, who promises the seller's solicitor that they have it, contracts are exchanged (typically by fax!) and then they settle at their convenience. Scarily insecure, technically. Yes but in my case I acted as my own solicitor because I have this strange dislike of parting order 500 - 1000 GBP to fill in a few boiler-plate forms and make a few checks with government record departments. I've done 3 of them so far, the other parties solicitors don't like it, but then they don't have to. Adam
Re: trillions a day?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14 May 2002 at 13:47, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 8:10 AM -0700 on 5/14/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? You're confusing assets with transactions. Cheers, RAH I'm really not, I'm just wondering what the hell all these transactions are. I understand that in principle I could convert 100 dollars into Euros and back again 100 times to generate 10,000 dollars worth of transactions, but why would I? If I'm under the delusion that the dollar is overvalued, presumably somebody else must be of the opposite opinion for a trade to take place, right? So if I change my mind half an hour later, presumably it's because the dollar went down, right? So the people who thought the dollar was undervalued should be even more confident in their opinion, I would think. Yeah, I know, if the world worked that way stock price graphs would look like smooth slowly varying curves instead of spikey hairy monsters. But still, trillions a day? it just seems incredible to me that there should be that many transactions. Think arbitrage. Allegedly only 2% of foreign exchange transactions are actually related to anything real. The other 98% are just banks playing gambling games on the money markets. Scary, if you ask me. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff
Re: convenience and advantages of cash (Re: Eyes on the Prize...notthe Millicent Ghetto)
Adam Back wrote: Largest thing I bought cash was 2,000 GBP for a 2nd hand car some years ago. I did toy with trying to buy a house with paper cash to see if it could be done, but I didn't bother in the end -- but I think that all that would have happened is the seller's lawyer would go to the bank and pay it in to make sure it's good. Actually, the way house buying works (generally) in the UK is that you deposit your money with _your_ solicitor, who promises the seller's solicitor that they have it, contracts are exchanged (typically by fax!) and then they settle at their convenience. Scarily insecure, technically. In fact, many years ago I had a solicitor who trusted me to such an extent that he financed a house purchase from his firm's client slush fund (i.e. he promised that he had the money even though he hadn't, and was prepared to back it from that fund). That's the kind of personal touch bits on the wire will never replace :-) Oh, incidentally, this whole process is going to become bits on the wire very shortly, I believe - one of the first high-value transactions to become so in the UK. The UK Land Registry has been all electronic for a long time, too, I'm told. But because it works we don't hear about it much. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff
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Protect your family and business with an affordable lawyer B
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Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer wrote: I used a VISA debit card to buy a $25,000 Ford Explorer. You mentioned this for the fourth time this month. It would be refreshing if you could name some other merchandise next time, maybe some non-redneck items ? Not redneck. A redneck would buy a pickup truck, a gun rack, and about six extra rims, for lawn decoration. Half of my relatives are rednecks, so I know these things. An Explorer is more a soccer mom purchase. If you want to bust on Tim, try to aim a little more accurately. -- Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- At 9:30 PM -0700 on 5/13/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems to me that most of our economy is arguably illegal. Fine. Document that, please. Show me statistics. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, right? $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. Much of it illegal. Fine. How much. Say it with numbers, please. For example some large proportion of the capital formed in Ireland sneaks out, and then re-enters in the guise of foreign capital. No problem. How much, exactly? Even a reasonable estimate will do nicely, if you can point to actual data. The biggest number I've heard for money laundering worldwide for instance, over the last 6 years ago since Black Unicorn threw it around at DCSB in 1996, is a mostly made up number in the several hundred billion-dollar annual range. Compared, again, to, regulated, monitored, bank-to-bank foreign exchange of several *trillion* dollars a *day*, it's chicken feed. Illegal drugs are probably a few tens of billions of dollars a year. Timmy Leary quoted $50 billion in the early 80's at the height of the Columbian cocaine boom. I'll take triple that, now, just for fun. Chicken feed compared to the global commercial drug market. Money laundering and drugs are probably the largest illegal businesses. The rest is, again, chicken-feed in comparison to even that. Frankly, the amount of formerly illegal business now declared legal, in a gross sense, has gone up dramatically in the last 10-15 years, think most of Eurasia, for instance, and the number of de-regulated businesses increases that amount exponentially every year. Wait until various moslem dictatorships are freed, and you'll see even more. We're legislating crime out of statistical significance, just by making most of it legal, and in spite of the increase of financial crime legislation in the G-7, even before 9/11. Legitimate Internet commerce, boom, bust, or no, is going to be so huge that it will completely swamp the ability of governments to control business at all, much less their own economies and currencies, and, frankly, it can't happen soon enough for me. The pointy end of the stick isn't illegal business. It's anyone who wants to sell anything over the internet, particularly if it's anything that is *transported* over the internet, which, in a geodesic economy, will be the only stuff that matters. Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 7.5 iQEVAwUBPOCkdMUCGwxmWcHhAQGbvwgApTqp1zOtoVX8/WRrirtJeOVvW7mO37U4 pkqXBmS3UuBv3JDySwcNv5rlqBhigO+DNmMtDWbosTg9tbmftKtVCK4ikmTbXMu7 JOS9T1QrbckwvT7e7NhjOUO8kv/P6tDo8fdlRNuRgLlrfvTKOJSmHiZEM/U3qhoo I0ao8qlsTpq8vVX5UdioZmw/EP/e251BAo4ngvYEfNgocMUNz7ni4fDdeJEVZy2a WawiGsmoPeQ8H8lCAHYPDWcA6PBimbyyiz2IG5F8njCz+WkH0fAm6FCp7QYrfObt 4jCdnl4iVIKkcaM6M9uTLQQqUJg1cEhq4hSQ1LmtiXQKlvUbkq9Rig== =5lP9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
Nope, Usually credit card transactions are free for the payer Bullshit, they charge interest on the loans and such. You should read your credit card bills closer. Not sure if the rules are different over there then - after all, you add on extra charges to the ticket price when you reach the paypoint :) in the UK, almost all credit cards charge *no* interest at all on payments made with it provided you clear your balance when the bill comes in, and most charge no annual fee for usage either. A handling charge is applied if you use a cashpoint to withdraw money, but that is sensible as there there isn't a vendor to gouge :) The CC contract insists on no surcharge (to the customers) for CC payments ??? I guess the vendor who pays the fees to use credit cards just pulls the money out of thin air...not hardly. *shrug* I am not responsible for for your problems there. In my experience (limited to the uk, admittedly) card usage is free, and vendors are under a contractual obligation (and I know this because I have signed such a contract) to the CC swipe box supplier (the merchant account provider) not to add a surcharge for use of the card to pay; this leads to some strange situations, where companies will accept CCs to purchase goods, but will *not* accept them to pay bills. Mind you, if you wave a bundle of cash and mutter discount for cash payment? to a lot of companies, you can get a discount. but then, this is true *anyhow* particularly for payments over 100ukp to anything but the biggest of the high street names - and even then, usually a store manager has the discretionary power to apply discounts (usually booked as shop soiled (ie ex-display model) or manager's special promotion)
Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
Ken Brown wrote: Er, I hit send prematurely, and I meant to go on to say that I have often used 1 or 200 UKP in folding money - it is easy to do with universal availability of ATMs. If anything I use more cash than I did 15 years ago because it is so simple to get hold of. And saves the bother of waiting while they go online to validate the credit card if the latest series of Buffy on video exceeds the floor limit at the shop. Yes, that is because Bob's comments were originally biased to the American market. There, in the US (I don't know about Canada), compared to Europe and most other countries, the usage of the credit card is much higher, and ATMs are less used. The reason for this is the structure of the banking industry. In most countries, there are 3-4 huge national banks that dominate. Consequently, they drive banking, and they have powerful ATM networks that are national in scope. Also, they drive card usage more, and thus they don't advance the cause of the credit card any more than it suits them. In contrast, the US is one of the few countries with little national banking. There are something like 10,000 banks there, and there no national banks. Consequently, the glue that holds the system together is the credit card majors (amongst other things like the fed), and they drive much of the utilisation patterns. The US therefore has weaker ATM networks (compared with other countries). Whilst a lot of that ground has been caught up, it is the case that the CC majors own the two big networks (as Bob says). I use a debit card, one that draws against my bank current account the way a cheque does (probably check to you). It's the same card that is used as a cheque card. Lots of purchases over $100. I've bought a miniature video camera with it, maybe 1500 dollars US. Debit cards I think are relatively new development in the US, as they bypass the CC companies' interests. They have been strong in the rest of the world for a longer time. For that reason, there is a whole host of charges as they go through the different institutions, including the CC networks, which you won't find so strong elsewhere. Still involves merchant charges of course. As far as they are concerned it is no different from a credit card. The cashier at the till probably doesn't even know the difference (after all it says Visa on it). (PS: I could be wrong about the details above, I haven't checked any of them, but I think I have the big picture down.) -- iang
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- At 10:34 PM -0700 on 5/13/02, Richard Fiero wrote: Um, that $4 trillion didn't move around in trucks speeding on highways. It's just a bunch of marks on hard drives and very little money actually changed owners. Already electronic. Already secure. Extremely mobile. Correct. And it can only be transferred, in very big chunks, from one bank to another, taking at least 24 hours to clear and settle because of still mostly batch-processed bookeeping applications. The stuff we're talking about is much more mobile, it clears instantly, and considerably less expensive, so that ordinary people with an internet connection, and eventually ordinary machines, can pay each other increasingly smaller and smaller amounts as technology evolves. As the article excerpted below states, in 2001 there was about $620 billion dollars in US currency out there somewhere and 65% was in $100 dollar bills. Sure. I've read Rogoff, and Doyle, who he cites, before. Rogoff says nothing new there that everyone in the money business doesn't say already -- and the Bank for International Settlement has much better data, by the way. http://www.bis.org/cpss/cpsspubl.htm is a good place to start. The Kansas City Fed also has a good database, called FRED :-), containing all the various monetary aggregate figures in it going back at least to the turn of the 20th century. *My* point is that there hasn't been implementation of a working bearer-settled internet transaction system yet. I would probably claim that that when it's up and running, and proven to be cheap enough, that the amount of cash in circulation of various national currencies will easily double in 5 years, and go up from there. I also expect that, if it's cheap enough, internet bearer transactions will almost completely replace book-entry settled payment and finance within 25 years. Or at least to the same ratio that book-entry transactions dominate physical delivery of paper bearer instruments today, which, as inadvertently noted above, is pocket lint. Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 7.5 iQEVAwUBPOEfaMUCGwxmWcHhAQF/4wgAtejiMUjA/QnTBqQKDUOxFDT0RsrjVjHb o79rKABKXuW49BL25LSTVpmQFzWUOKdG1Xte/DXDP2IREdPlDphmVvXl/7FnXhoj 4/tWaYSYteqsbA0O3oef5d4vmYDfR6HDzas/nHM3k5S7Nxb2w41bSmaUbkcmFO9W b0muJF1hxdf2Rd5/u7hDccbJJl+OUvjcR6mxW5qlbYlllFDAVAWwpZvIh8/qSpO6 IiCwPdeibbBHI6ixVy28Mo5sMet0XtkHen1FE2Li8jCW+PA+3cu7nxKYjWwXuc/U 9ZJs/x1ugdrmSlwt23s2PLknOcoxEEvRcQF2yoSOtvOwxJg/5J7SUg== =ScL3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: trillions a day?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13 May 2002 at 18:27, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Right, though I'm sure you're wishing it wasn't. Again, crime, illegal markets if you will are piddly bits of pocket fluff in the global economy. $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? George The $4 trillion doesn't actually go anywhere. It's mostly put up as risk-management and exchange tweaking. Like pork bellies, dig? You buy the options but no truck actually comes and unloads a mound of pork on your front lawn. Keep in mind that US currency is US Government debt. The more stashed under mattresses, the less debt has to ever be repaid. As the article mentions, if non-interest bearing currency becomes less popular, then the debt will have to be financed at higher cost through interest-bearing bonds.
Spoliation
Yeah, I know, this is long gone... But... I still thought there would be interest. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Rae Cogar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 7:26 AM Subject: website case Here is a recently reported case from California that found a company guilty of spoliation of evidence by changing information on their website during litigation. One point made by the court in this case is there were no policies or procedures for the updating or deleting of material from the website. You can find this opinion at: http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/cand/tentrule.nsf/4f9d4c4a03b0cf70882567980073b 2e4/cf68f686007991fa88256af1006a9e16?OpenDocument (you will need to cut and paste url) Spoliation Sanctions for Deletion of Web Page The defendant corporation moved to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction, denying minimum contacts with the state of California. The plaintiff offered as evidence a page from the defendant's web site that listed a California office address. While the motion was pending, the California address disappeared from the defendant's web site. Though one employee of the defendant testified that he had deleted the page in routine maintenance, there was no corporate maintenance policy that would explain the deletion. The court granted the plaintiff's motion to enjoin further spoliation and ordered that the defendant pay plaintiff's attorney's fees as a sanction. Pennar Software Corp. v. Fortune 500 Sys., 51 Fed. R. Serv. 279 (N.D. Cal. 2001). Another case for good records management! Rae Cogar, Esq. RCS Consulting Hamburg, NY 716-646-6192 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
-- On 13 May 2002 at 22:34, Richard Fiero wrote: As the article excerpted below states, in 2001 there was about $620 billion dollars in US currency out there somewhere and 65% was in $100 dollar bills. Presumably most of those $100 bills are changing hands in suitcases and brown paper bags, exposing the owners to considerable personal risk in each transaction. However, in many countries, most for example Argentina, the government routinely engages in bank robbery, making the banking system pretty much unusable. Many of those holders of bags of $100 bills would find a quiet electronic version very handy. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG k5Q0ixYnXPGv/XDu2hDgLJoUHo/6YsmFCmLRq9VM 4Ziv9lrQKn6qjtcEQFPjaJcif82ptDYKZhIVWcPVM
burbclave tech
TCM Wrote: The second is my favorite, by far. Robinson captures the essence of OC's crowds, the surfers, the burbclaves (years before Stephenson's Snow Crash, _also_ set in California!). Hmm. My OC burbclave just installed a laser-barcode scanner to admit cars. (The barcodes are discrete black on black in the visible and work in the IR; in my night vision device the barcode is quite visible.) I haven't seen pizza-carrying teens use dupes of the barcodes to skate inside, but its possible...
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
-- James A. Donald: Seems to me that most of our economy is arguably illegal. R. A. Hettinga Fine. Document that, pease. Show me statistics. Obviously that is a claim that cannot be directly documented, since most people decline to register their business with the department of census and statistics as engaged primarily in illegal activity However every business that I have been involved in, where I have been in a position to know, has been extensively violating some laws in some fashion -- personal anecdotes, where I cannot give details. There are also many sweeping decrees where it is not clear what is intended, or what will be enforced, and one can make a plausible argument that current practice is arguably legal -- but not a very good argument. For example AOL, Verant, Yahoo, and perhaps Microsoft are arguably in violation of COPA. Almost everyone necessarily operates in gray areas, often fairly openly, and wherever I have been in a position to know, most people were in some respects operating in black areas, not at all openly. There are so many laws, that it is impossible to operate a business entirely legally. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, right? What is extraordinary about this claim: If most individuals can rack up multiple felony offenses while scarcely realizing it, think what a pickle the average business must be in. When the federal register is requires a fleet of trucks, when I have committed several hundred years worth of felonies without doing anything that the ordinary middle respectable middle class male would regard as very disreputable, I do not see what is so extraordinary about that claim. Illegal drugs are probably a few tens of billions of dollars a year. Timmy Leary quoted $50 billion in the early 80's at the height of the Columbian cocaine boom. I'll take triple that Add AOL, Yahoo, Verant, and Microsoft to the crips and the bloods. My usenet server has a sign up web page that emphasizes privacy, anonymity, lack of logs, absence of censorship, and completeness of newsgroups -- I get the impression that a large part of their customer base is people downloading child pornography. Frankly, the amount of formerly illegal business now declared legal, in a gross sense, has gone up dramatically in the last 10-15 years In Russia what we saw is not so much legalization, as collapse of enforcement -- the long existing illegal market that kept Stalin's economy going has now wholly displaced the socialist economy, a process that in restrospect was visible under Khruschev, and was visible to me at the time under Brezhnev. A similar collapse seems to be under way in America. Here in America we are in a situation equivalent to the early Brezhnev years. We're legislating crime out of statistical significance, just by making most of it legal, Most legislation makes more things illegal, not more things legal. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Nfak7kEQszUPr9gvDxWe7RF8jWE3evQwcUJgv8mR 4QWiykow35eQRRBIC3Q3w/0KHpuUKp1Aed3l+CSIK
Re: trillions a day?
On Tuesday, May 14, 2002, at 08:10 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13 May 2002 at 18:27, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Right, though I'm sure you're wishing it wasn't. Again, crime, illegal markets if you will are piddly bits of pocket fluff in the global economy. $4 trillion worth of foreign exchange alone happened today. How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? Because GDP is a measure (flawed, of course) of _production_, not of money being shipped around. (I'm assuming Hettinga was talking about overall money flows, not just payment for goods purchased, a narrower definition of foreign exchange.) To see this simply, imagine your own annual income of, say, $50,000. (No insinuations intended as to your wealth or lack of it.) You could wire $20K to a bank, wire it again to another bank, wire it againeasy to have a total amount transferred that is many times your annual income. Economists talk about velocity of money and all, but this illustrates the point. The same money is being moved many times. Transactions are not just You grow corn. I pay you for corn. Here is money. I have no idea whether the $4 trillion figure for a day is correct, but it's plausible. Checking with Google, I find this: SWIFT is the industry-owned cooperative supplying secure messaging services and interface software to 7,000 financial institutions in 196 countries. SWIFT carried over 1.5 billion messages in 2001. The average daily value of payment messages on SWIFT is estimated to be above USD 6 trillion. http://www.globalcrossing.com/xml/news/2002/april/02.xml So, this is how the daily money flow can be so large compared to the daily GDP. --Tim May Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound
Re: trillions a day?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? Because the money goes round more than once. Because most foreign exchange ends up right back where it started before the end of the day, with tiny bits shaved off for interest. Because vast proportions of the apparent US money traded are, and have been for years, in the euro-dollar market in London and never touches down in America at all. (the relative importance of that has declined but other non-US markets are growing to replace it) Because banks lend money they don't have, and the people they lend it to lend it to others, who can include banks, who can lend the same money to more than one person - and as long as no-one is *really* stupid (remember Nick Leeson?) most of the money comes back home at settlement time. Because lots of money doesn't really represent spending power at all. Say that A owes B a billion dollars. B owes C a billion dollars worth of euros. C owes A a billion dollars worth of yen. Minor fluctuations in exchange rates, combined with traders efforts to pull a fast one, mean that smaller amounts of money - say a few hundred thousand a day - permanently changes hands, and can be spent. But, absent the meltdown of one or another market, the whole pot never gets spent. It can't, because it is mostly always promised to someone else. Because people don't just trade money, whatever that is. They trade various kinds of rights and duties to money and other property. A has a billion dollars. How much is it worth to B to buy the right to borrow that billion for 1 day sometime next week, if they choose to? That has a value. A sells that right to B, and C and D. What happens if B C both want to cash in? Well, A has to borrow the second billion from E in a hurry... and so on. Because as Bruce Sterling told us many years ago, cyberspace is real, it is where the banks keep the money. Most of the money in the world is entries in databases in London banks and market traders that no-one will ever spend. Most of the rest is in banks in Singapore, Tokyo, and New York. No-where else has any at all, statistically speaking :-) Ken
Re: Eyes on the Prize...not the Millicent Ghetto
R. A. Hettinga e-said: Compared, again, to, regulated, monitored, bank-to-bank foreign exchange of several *trillion* dollars a *day*, it's chicken feed. On Bob's list, yesterday: About $1.2 trillion in currencies is traded daily, according to the Bank for International Settlements. Regards, Dave Birch. -- == My own opinion (I think!) given solely in my capacity as an == interested member of the general public == mail(at)davebirches.org, http://www.davebirch.org/
Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
--- begin forwarded text Status: U User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1331 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:21:01 +0200 Subject: Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys From: David G.W. Birch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bob Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED], Digital Bearer Settlement List [EMAIL PROTECTED] R. A. Hettinga e-said: What the hell does *live* mean? There are quite a few folks on this planet who 'sell' nothing. They grow their own food, they build their own house. Any many of them live well into their thirties. Regards, Dave Birch. -- == My own opinion (I think!) given solely in my capacity as an == interested member of the general public == mail(at)davebirches.org, http://www.davebirch.org/ --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: trillions a day?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 14 May 2002 at 13:47, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 8:10 AM -0700 on 5/14/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How could this possibly be true? :ast I checked, GDP for the US was about 10 trillion bucks a year, the combined GDP of every nation on earth per year can't be more than 100 trillion, most of which doesn't involve anything crosiing a border, so how can there possibly be trillions of dollars worth of foreign exchange a day? You're confusing assets with transactions. Cheers, RAH I'm really not, I'm just wondering what the hell all these transactions are. I understand that in principle I could convert 100 dollars into Euros and back again 100 times to generate 10,000 dollars worth of transactions, but why would I? If I'm under the delusion that the dollar is overvalued, presumably somebody else must be of the opposite opinion for a trade to take place, right? So if I change my mind half an hour later, presumably it's because the dollar went down, right? So the people who thought the dollar was undervalued should be even more confident in their opinion, I would think. Yeah, I know, if the world worked that way stock price graphs would look like smooth slowly varying curves instead of spikey hairy monsters. But still, trillions a day? it just seems incredible to me that there should be that many transactions. Think arbitrage. Allegedly only 2% of foreign exchange transactions are actually related to anything real. The other 98% are just banks playing gambling games on the money markets. Scary, if you ask me. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/ There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit. - Robert Woodruff
