Re: Spotting Trouble Identifying Faltering and Failing States (1997)
-- For these reasons it seems to us that military planners and decision makers should be interested in considering new approaches toward aiding failing and faltering states. 4 [...]The cure they propose is conservatorship, under which the United Nations would directly supervise or actually take over the government of a failed state until it became fully capable of administering its own affairs. 7 U.S. military and political leaders should immediately understand, these authors warn, that such a conservatorship would inevitably involve American military participation in some form or another. Oh wow, let us expand our current highly popular and successful Iraqi operation to embrace a quarter of the world. Wouldn't it be nice? No, come to think of it, it would not be nice. The problem is not failed states. The problem is states like North Korea, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, which are not failing, but damn well should. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG KZbrHZ/MYP584OnYd7NsjZjmUpn8Srn0ydIoe269 4ATqczLXXya6Ei6jVdqfx7nHh1/Fdp6s6+VCLrdwO
Re: Feral Cities
-- James A. Donald: Terrorists, as we discovered in Afghanistan, tend to piss people off. They need a government that is strong enough to intimidate the locals to refrain from killing them. Major Variola (ret) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since when did a few remote Al Q boot camps piss people off? Al Quaeda's job in Afghanistan was to perform the massacres that the Taliban could not trust Afghan troops to do. As reward, they got to do lots of rape. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG XS+RbeI9x56+eGEJSL0XpRb/V4lhlvJ+9hIFdozX 4U+LELZqarYEsN76W5PxOcuYS8LCrTCW7z5upagAP
RE: [IP] No expectation of privacy in public? In a pig's eye! (fwd from dave@farber.net)
At 10:07 AM 1/14/05 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: It would take some chutzpa, but tacking onto a cops car would send a message Too easy. 5 points for adding to cop's personal car 10 points for adding to cop's spouse's personal car 20 points for adding to cop's mistress' personal car Not sure about point assignments for adding to cop's offspring's car adding to cop's offspring's teacher's car
Re: Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun
On 2005-01-15T09:38:23+, Justin wrote: On 2005-01-14T15:42:18-0800, Bill Stewart wrote: Seems like scare-mongering to me, not a practical concern. Of course it's not a practical concern. Criminals already have access to handguns that will defeat common soft body armor. This media panic was instigated by a press release from the Violence Policy Center, which has evidently (for now) given up trying to pass a new assault weapon ban, and is instead finding new legislative targets. I didn't remember which group it was, and I guessed wrong. It wasn't the VPC. It was the Brady Campaign/MMM. http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41691 -- War is the father and king of all, and some he shows as gods, others as men; some he makes slaves, others free. -Heraclitus 53
Re: Spotting Trouble Identifying Faltering and Failing States (1997)
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:31:05 -0600 (CST), J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since Mein Fuhrer Bush is preparing to escalate to Iran in a few months, you'd better get used to it. It's interesting you called him that, given your next statement. No. The problem is states like the US who should keep their fascist noses out of other states business. Let those states rise or fall on their own merits or demerits, but allow nature to take it's course. It's not our place to be decisiding what is an appropriate government for others. Hell, we can't even figure out what's appropriate *here*. Isolationism didn't work 70 years ago; what makes you think it will work better in this new age of globalism? -- Pete Capelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.capelli.org PGP Key ID:0x829263B6 Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Re: US slaps on the wardriver-busting paint
The paint sounds like yet another sting operation to catch the goofuses who think they can hide RF on the cheap. The folks on the TSCM-L list think the paint is pure snake oil, that the electrophysics of it are crap. Still, phony Tempest protection is a pretty good business, no doubt promoted by the spooks who get better results from signals calling attention to themselves by way of half-assed protection: -- here, look at me trying to shield my nonsense. Several US companies have done quite well selling so-called NSA-grade Tempest protection, even requiring an export license for the hoakum, in cahoots with the agency which welcomes the pointers to users. Joel McNamara's Tempest site has a several references to RF snake oil, some of which appears to be honeypot-grade. Relatedlhy, we assume that the only reason NSA released to us a batch of Tempest docs was to promote the sale of weak systems. Docs which describe the truly good protection have never been released, presuming there is such high-quality of RF security. Tempest could be a diversion from more intricate and interception. Over-confidence in a security system is a bellweather for successful attack. Someday, now 5 years and counting, we hope to get NSA FOI docs on the Brit's Non-Secret Encryption which allegedly was invented before the PK if Diffie Hellman Merkle, and whether any of that pre-PK information was leaked so that DHM could access it, by guile or by accident, NSA by then having developed a crack, and set in motion the faith-based use of unbreakable public crypto.
Re: Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun
On 2005-01-14T16:54:32-0500, R.A. Hettinga wrote: http://www.wnbc.com/print/4075959/detail.html Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun I care? Well, perhaps I do... I should go pick one up before they're banned. The most shocking fact may be that the gun -- known as the five-seven -- is being marketed to the public, and it's completely legal The name is Five-seveN. It's made by Fabrique Nationale (FN). Allegedly the U.S. secret service likes the Five-seveN, along with the FN P90 (unavailable to civilians except title 2 firearms dealers because it's only made in a select-fire version). They both use the same 5.7mm rounds, which makes logistics easier. Of course, they also use MP5s and 9mm handguns... Other guns with civilian-legal armor-piercing ammo include the CZ-52, .223 pistols, and most all rifles. At a distance of 21 feet, Trumball police Sgt. Lenny Scinto fired the five-seven with the ammo sold legally to the public into a standard police vest. All three penetrated the vest. The real ammo penetrates CRISAT/PAGST armor at 100m and 300m respectively. Level 2 or 3a armor is really rather pathetic. Back in Trumball, Scinto said his officers would have to rethink how to protect the public and protect themselves. Police have no duty to protect the public. Anyway, most of the public doesn't walk around wearing vests, so protecting the public from these is no different than protecting them from other firearms. Protecting the police from these is no different than protecting them from rifles. Only trauma plates can stop pointy, high-velocity rounds. This is going to add a whole new dimension to training and tactics. With the penetration of these rounds, you're going to have to find something considerably heavier than we normally use for cover and concealment to stop this round, Scinto said. Cool, more LEOs instantly recognizable as beetles, having exoskeletons. I recommend Kafka's Metamorphoses to them as sociological grounding for what sort of reaction they can expect. -- War is the father and king of all, and some he shows as gods, others as men; some he makes slaves, others free. -Heraclitus 53
Re: Feral Cities
-- Feral cities would exert an almost magnetic influence on terrorist organizations. Such megalopolises will provide exceptionally safe havens for armed resistance groups, especially those having cultural affinity with at least one sizable segment of the city's population. Yet Mogadishu did *not* provide an exceptionally safe haven for terrorists On the contrary, terrorists hang out where there are strong governments to protect them, extremely strong governments, govenments that attempt to exercise totalitarian control over every aspect of every person's life, speech, and thought. They hung out in Taliban Afghanistan, and today they hang out in Syria. Terrorists, as we discovered in Afghanistan, tend to piss people off. They need a government that is strong enough to intimidate the locals to refrain from killing them. This hand wringing about failed states is nonsense. We would be a lot better off if more regimes failed - starting with Saudi Arabia, which is at present walking both sides of the road on terror, and speaking out of both sides of its mouth. We should send arms to those that hate the current Saudi regime - and worry which of those who received our arms are good guys and which are bad guys after the regime falls. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG lYYew1mXLqlqClNWre3iWNTQSdUjC3dM+wojwWKP 4ZzkUnYtfu/tX/c5VsLePUrbbJ15Ww5uBlRvLj+Ut
Re: US slaps on the wardriver-busting paint
At 09:35 AM 1/14/05 -0500, R.A. Hettinga wrote: It only remains for us to say that DefendAir costs a cool $69 per gallon (US gallon, presumably). How much is the TV tax in the UK? How long to pay off the costs of paint to hide one's IF oscillator from the White Vans? Surprising that the Register didn't pick up on this. The Al foil over the windows and screen over the appliance-vents might be telling. Otherwise its a waste of paint. And haven't these paint-scammers heard of foil-backed insulation?
Re: US slaps on the wardriver-busting paint
At 10:00 AM 1/16/2005, Major Variola (ret) wrote: At 09:35 AM 1/14/05 -0500, R.A. Hettinga wrote: It only remains for us to say that DefendAir costs a cool $69 per gallon (US gallon, presumably). How much is the TV tax in the UK? How long to pay off the costs of paint to hide one's IF oscillator from the White Vans? You weren't reading the how it works description carefully. It works by blocking RF, so if you put enough paint on to block outgoing RF from your IF oscillator, you'll also block incoming RF headed for your tuner, unless your TV set does a good job of isolating the IF from the antenna. Similarly, if it's doing a good enough job of blocking RF to keep 802.11 WLANs from getting out, it's also keeping cell phone signals from getting in. RF is surprisingly leaky stuff. Back when I ran a TEMPEST-shielded room, we'd find easily-measurable leaks if the copper-wool filler in the joints wasn't packed tightly, or if we stuck a paper clip in one of the fiber-waveguide holes. We were measuring at 450 MHz, which was a really high frequency for the mid 1980s when computers ran at 10 MHz, and our room was about 120 dB tight when everything was working. Looks like the tax is UKP 116, so if the paint is only sold in whole gallons, and the white vans come around monthly to test, it could pay off in 3-4 months if it worked, except that it probably won't work. Bill Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Searching with Images instead of Words
Expecting a front view of an image to match with a side view of the same image is impossible. They are both disjoint sets of information. If all the images are frontal images, we can match them with a hight probability, otherwise I doubt this technology has a future. I think it definitely has a future. I'm a bit skeptical about whether it's a _near_ future, though It sounds especially possible for specific classes of pictures, such as outdoor locations in major cities. Bill Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Carnivore No More
At 12:31 AM +0100 1/16/05, Eugen Leitl wrote: it is believed that unspecified commercial surveillance tools are employed now. It was always AGGroup's Skyline package to begin with. The FBI is like NASA. They never build anything, and take all the credit. Cheers, RAH -- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Spotting Trouble Identifying Faltering and Failing States (1997)
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005, James A. Donald wrote: Oh wow, let us expand our current highly popular and successful Iraqi operation to embrace a quarter of the world. Wouldn't it be nice? No, come to think of it, it would not be nice. Since Mein Fuhrer Bush is preparing to escalate to Iran in a few months, you'd better get used to it. The problem is not failed states. The problem is states like North Korea, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, which are not failing, but damn well should. No. The problem is states like the US who should keep their fascist noses out of other states business. Let those states rise or fall on their own merits or demerits, but allow nature to take it's course. It's not our place to be decisiding what is an appropriate government for others. Hell, we can't even figure out what's appropriate *here*. --digsig James A. Donald -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF Civilization is in a tailspin - everything is backwards, everything is upside down- doctors destroy health, psychiatrists destroy minds, lawyers destroy justice, the major media destroy information, governments destroy freedom and religions destroy spirituality - yet it is claimed to be healthy, just, informed, free and spiritual. We live in a social system whose community, wealth, love and life is derived from alienation, poverty, self-hate and medical murder - yet we tell ourselves that it is biologically and ecologically sustainable. The Bush plan to screen whole US population for mental illness clearly indicates that mental illness starts at the top. Rev Dr Michael Ellner
Re: panix.com hijacked
--- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:08:24 + (GMT) From: Christopher L. Morrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: panix.com hijacked To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Henry Yen [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mark Jeftovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 01:32:46 EST, Henry Yen said: from panix shell hosts motd: . panix.net usable as panix.com (marcotte) Sat Jan 15 10:44:57 2005 So let's see.. the users will see this when they log into shell.panix.net (since shell.panix.com is borked).. Somehow, that doesn't seem to help much.. and the hijackers could be, potentially, running a box pretending to be shell.panix.com, gathering userids and passwds :( --- end forwarded text -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: panix.com hijacked
--- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 01:32:46 -0500 From: Henry Yen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Mark Jeftovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: panix.com hijacked Mail-Followup-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mark Jeftovic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sat, Jan 15, 2005 at 10:50:49AM -0500, Perry E. Metzger wrote: Panix is highly screwed by this -- their users are all off the air, and they can't really wait for an appeals process to complete in order to get everything back together again. from panix shell hosts motd: . panix.net usable as panix.com (marcotte) Sat Jan 15 10:44:57 2005
Re: [Antisocial] Remember These?? (fwd)
You forgot a few (found from a quick google search) ... although, naturally the media crawled all over the left for supporting the claims of weapons of mass destruction, while letting Bush off the hook. - There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies. - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001 We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them. - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country. - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power. - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction. - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons... - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security. - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction. - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do Rep. - Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002 In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weap ons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ... - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:10:16 -0600 (CST), J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Pete Capelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.capelli.org PGP Key ID:0x829263B6 Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Carnivore No More
Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/15/1424207 Posted by: CowboyNeal, on 2005-01-15 15:03:00 from the calling-it-quits dept. [1]wikinerd writes FBI has [2]retired the controversial Carnivore software, strongly criticized by privacy advocates for its email capturing abilities. However, it is believed that unspecified commercial surveillance tools are employed now. What does that mean for Internet users' privacy? [3]Click Here References 1. http://portal.wikinerds.org/ 2. http://www.securityfocus.com/news/10307 3. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5671alloc_id=12342site_id=1request_id=5016758op=clickpage=%2farticle%2epl - End forwarded message - -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a __ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net pgpAYW0DN2lDH.pgp Description: PGP signature
[Antisocial] Remember These?? (fwd)
-- Forwarded message -- Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:03:24 -0600 (CST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Antisocial [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Antisocial] Remember These?? So now that the hunt is officially off. It truly is a shame that the media is not all over this. Once again we see the coporate media covering for their boy W. sg *** But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them. George W. Bush, President Interview with TVP Poland 5/30/2003 We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud Condoleeza Rice, US National Security Advisor CNN Late Edition 9/8/2002 How the United States should react if Iraq acquired WMD. The first line of defense...should be a clear and classical statement of deterrence--if they do acquire WMD, their weapons will be unusable because any attempt to use them will bring national obliteration. Condoleeza Rice, US National Security Advisor January/February 2000 issue of Foreign Affairs 2/1/2000 We are greatly concerned about any possible linkup between terrorists and regimes that have or seek weapons of mass destruction...In the case of Saddam Hussein, we've got a dictator who is clearly pursuing and already possesses some of these weapons.. A regime that hates America and everything we stand for must never be permitted to threaten America with weapons of mass destruction. Dick Cheney, Vice President Detroit, Fund-Raiser 6/20/2002 Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. Dick Cheney, Vice President Speech to VFW National Convention 8/26/2002 There is already a mountain of evidence that Saddam Hussein is gathering weapons for the purpose of using them. And adding additional information is like adding a foot to Mount Everest. Ari Fleischer, Press Secretary Response to Question From Press 9/6/2002 Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons. George W. Bush, President Speech to UN General Assembly 9/12/2002 Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have George W. Bush, President Radio Address 10/5/2002 The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas. George W. Bush, President Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002 And surveillance photos reveal that the regime is rebuilding facilities that it had used to produce chemical and biological weapons. George W. Bush, President Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002 After eleven years during which we have tried containment, sanctions, inspections, even selected military action, the end result is that Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more. And he is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon. George W. Bush, President Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002 We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas George W. Bush, President Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002 Iraq, despite UN sanctions, maintains an aggressive program to rebuild the infrastructure for its nuclear, chemical, biological, and missile programs. In each instance, Iraq's procurement agents are actively working to obtain both weapons-specific and dual-use materials and technologies critical to their rebuilding and expansion efforts, using front companies and whatever illicit means are at hand. John Bolton, Undersecretary of State for Arms Control Speech to the Hudson Institute 11/1/2002 We estimate that once Iraq acquires fissile material -- whether from a foreign source or by securing the materials to build an indigenous fissile material capability -- it could fabricate a nuclear weapon within one year. It has rebuilt its civilian chemical infrastructure and renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard, sarin, and VX. It actively maintains all key aspects of its offensive BW [biological weapons] program. John Bolton, Undersecretary of State for Arms Control Speech to the Hudson Institute 11/1/2002 Iraq could decide on any given day to provide biological or chemical weapons to a terrorist group or to individual terrorists,...The war on terror will not be won until Iraq is completely and verifiably deprived of weapons of mass destruction. Dick Cheney, Vice President Denver, Address To Air National Guard 12/1/2002 If he declares he has none, then we will know
Re: Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun
On 2005-01-14T15:42:18-0800, Bill Stewart wrote: At 01:54 PM 1/14/2005, R.A. Hettinga wrote: http://www.wnbc.com/print/4075959/detail.html NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest useless, as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger. ... The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds without reloading. A couple of questions to the gunpunks out there... I've heard that rifles easily penetrate bullet-proof vests, and that vests are really only useful against average-to-small handguns and against shotguns. Is this accurate? There are various levels of body armor specified by the NIJ. In order of effectiveness (lower to higher): Levels IIa, II, IIIa, III, and IV. http://www.nlectc.org/txtfiles/BodyArmorStd/NIJSTD010103.html Level IV typically takes the form of a trauma plate and is put into a pouch in the front (and/or in the back) of soft body armor. III and IV are heavier, bulkier, and as a result aren't used as much. The NIJ standards are based on stopping standard bullets up to certain velocity limits (preventing them from going through the vest), _plus_ backface deformation limits. They put the vests over geletin, and the volume displaced by the vest when it absorbs the shot is measured and must be less than a specified limit. There is a lot of sentiment that this testing method is crap, and all that should matter is whether the bullet goes through the vest. Or at least that backface deformation should be less heavily emphasized. Then there are other specifications outside of the NIJ scheme; for instance, the there's PAGST and CRISAT body armor. I don't recall what they stand for. Any idea how much you can saw off a rifle and still have it penetrate typical cop vests? A lot. 5.56mm pistols (based on the AR-15 and available from olympic arms or bushmaster, among other manufacturers) are perfectly legal and will shoot through IIIa vests. The real jump up is between IIIa and III; the former mainly stops handgun rounds, while the latter allegedly stops standard .223 and .308 loads, but I'm not sure... before I looked it up just now, I thought only level IV trauma plates stopped .308. Cops typically wear level II or IIIa armor. And even trauma plates will not stop repeated hits to the same area. If you expect to be shot at with a rifle, you do not want to be out in the open where many hits are unavoidable. Ceramic plates weaken through chipping, and metal plates weaken through stress/deformation. (And I assume the 20 rounds in seconds is just a scary way to say it has a big magazine and you have to pull the trigger 20 times.) Of course. Otherwise it would be a machine gun, and new machine guns are not available to civilians... and haven't been since the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act. The anti-gun forces try hard to associate the assault weapons ban expiry with the availability of machineguns. They are lying. Also, the police expressed worry that criminals might hear about these guns and then the cops would be in big trouble. This gun, the Five-seveN, has been available for years. What hasn't been available for years, I don't think, is the practice non-AP ammunition. And, of course, some FFLs (gun dealers) are unwilling to sell the Five-seveN to private citizens. Sounds silly to me - while some criminals might buy a cop-killer handgun for bragging rights, random criminals presumably only buy weapons useful for the scenarios they imagine being in, Other armor-piercing handguns include .223 pistols and the CZ 52; there are also nasty rounds, though generally unavailable, for 9mm handguns that will penetrate IIIa armor. Ordinary rounds at +P+ pressures may even do it. The Five-seveN bullets have a muzzle velocity about half-way between handgun bullet velocities and rifle bullet velocities. Given the round diameter (5.7mm) and the short barrel (compared to rifles) of the Five-seveN, it's essentially a rifle round. 5.56mm pistols fire rounds with nearly the same diameter, though they weigh more (5.7mm bullets are ~~30gr, standard 5.56mm is 55 or 62gr) and therefore require more powder to achieve the same velocities. Hence the longer cartridges for 5.56mm (I use .223 and 5.56 interchangably; they're technically not the same thing but close enough for government work). Most .223 pistols are based on the AR-15, so their magazines attach outside of the pistol grip and make them look scarier. That also makes them slightly less concealable, which is why they're not being attacked by the anti-gun forces. Perhaps the anti-gunners don't think they're legal. which is Saturday Night Specials for most applications, or whatever currently fashionable Mac10/Uzi/etc. for druglord armies that expect to be shooting at each other, or rifles for distance work and dual-use pickup-truck decoration. Uzis, MP5s, short-barrelled
