Re: [IP] Real ID = National ID (fwd from dave@farber.net)

2005-05-12 Thread John Kelsey
From: Justin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: May 9, 2005 3:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IP] Real ID = National ID (fwd from [EMAIL PROTECTED])

..
What do we need security for?  We need security because a lot of
people hate the U.S., and because we won't close our borders, and
because society has become too diverse.  

Drivers license security is being pursued because a bunch of people
want to be able to reliably use drivers licenses as ID cards for their
own purposes.  That can be for TSA screening of passneger names
(though I think it's fantasy to imagine that this will really prevent
terrorists from flying, and it has endless creepy totalitarian uses),
or for making it harder to get a bank account without submitting your
true name so you get taxed and monitored, or making it easier for
the folks running various preferred shopper card programs to make
you give them the right information, or keeping you from reselling
your airline tickets.  (Note that the whole market segmentation/price
discrimination scheme that this threatened has basically died by now,
but we're still stuck with binding names to airline tickets.)  

There is a significant correlation between cultural
diversity/proximity and social unrest.  That does not require people
of different races; put white klansmen next to white members of the
Black Panthers and you have the same thing.

This is *very* dependent on the cultures in question.  For the most
part, Japanese and Korean immigrants (to take a couple easy examples)
make wonderful neighbors, though they're members of a different race
and culture and often a different religion.  On the other hand, turn
of the century Irish immigrants were English-speaking Christians, but
they made nightmarish neighbors.  And neither of those have much to do
with terrorism (as opposed to low-level crime, public drunkenness,
imported criminal gangs, etc.).  The Irish in the US have never been
much of a terrorist threat, though things are very different in the
UK!  

None of those three core problems will be solved by RealID.
Therefore, while RealID may make some difference at the margins, it
cannot be very effective.

Well, it depends on what your goal is.  If your goal is
harder-to-forge drivers licenses for all kinds of good and bad
purposes, then it may help.  If your goal is seriously stopping
terrorism or shutting down illegal immigration, it probably won't have
much of an impact.

--John



Re: [IP] Real ID = National ID (fwd from dave@farber.net)

2005-05-10 Thread Justin
On 2005-05-09T19:55:26+, Justin wrote:
 What do we need security for?  We need security because a lot of
 people hate the U.S., and because we won't close our borders, and

Apparently I have not learned any lessons from the follies of a certain
California governor.

By close the borders, I mean secure the borders against illegal
immigration.  I have no interest in doing away with immigration.



Re: [IP] Real ID = National ID (fwd from dave@farber.net)

2005-05-10 Thread Justin
On 2005-05-09T12:22:22-0700, cypherpunk wrote:
 We already have de facto national ID in the form of our state driver's
 licenses. They are accepted at face value at all 50 states as well as
 by the federal government. Real ID would rationalize the issuing
 procedures and require a certain minimum of verification. Without it
 we have security that is only as strong as the weakest state's
 policies.

States should be free to regulate DRIVERS however they want.  The DL was
not meant to be an ID card, and if it was that intent was
unconstitutional.  The entire DL scheme may be unconstitutional anyway,
but oh well.

What do we need security for?  We need security because a lot of
people hate the U.S., and because we won't close our borders, and
because society has become too diverse.  There is a significant
correlation between cultural diversity/proximity and social unrest.
That does not require people of different races; put white klansmen next
to white members of the Black Panthers and you have the same thing.

None of those three core problems will be solved by RealID.  Therefore,
while RealID may make some difference at the margins, it cannot be very
effective.



Re: [IP] Real ID = National ID (fwd from dave@farber.net)

2005-05-10 Thread cypherpunk
We already have de facto national ID in the form of our state driver's
licenses. They are accepted at face value at all 50 states as well as
by the federal government. Real ID would rationalize the issuing
procedures and require a certain minimum of verification. Without it
we have security that is only as strong as the weakest state's
policies.

CP