Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
-- On 13 Sep 2004 at 12:50, Major Variola (ret) wrote: When I was a teen I would save the instant-cold packs after soccer games, and recrystalize the AN within. It melts and gives off bubbles but I never collected enough N20 nor did it detonate. You need a lot of heat to detonate AN, but I have never failed to detonate it. Perhaps your stuff was contaminated with water or stabilizer, or perhaps you need a better flame. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG fi2djYWevOtkRUevhH2YeK5Q2byRVZ/KV1oTz6Kw 4wBDsSosJ6pBM+R7BpJsx2B+Bj//NSN+TD64XPR4S
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Bill Stewart wrote: The news says that North Korea's government says they were blowing the top off a mountain as part of hydroelectric construction. Yes, I heard it driving home this afternoon. Blowing up a mountain without any kind of warning (assuming that this isn't a case of universal coverup, which it doesn't look like) is a sure fire way to make your neighbors nervous! Nice to know Kim has a [warped but effective] sense of humor :-) They don't quote any unnamed officials saying Whoops... If a nuke goes off a few dozen meters under a mountain, is there anyone there to see it? What is the sound of one mountain moving? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF ...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do not. And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out about them. Osama Bin Laden - - - There aught to be limits to freedom!George Bush - - - Which one scares you more?
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
I still think we're seeing the early stages of a Jonestown-like scenario. If we see Kim Jong Il summoning the entire NK population to PyongYang, then we can be pretty sure they're going to nuke themselves! -TD From: John Kelsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Major Variola (ret) [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*? Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:27:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Major Variola (ret) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sep 13, 2004 3:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*? ... AN is extremely deliquescent; perhaps the sulphate was for that? Removing chunks with dynamite is trying rather hard for a Darwin award. As far as I can tell from what's reported in the new, a great deal of North Korea's daily operation fits that category. --John _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
The news says that North Korea's government says they were blowing the top off a mountain as part of hydroelectric construction. They don't quote any unnamed officials saying Whoops...
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
Major Variola (ret) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AN is extremely deliquescent; perhaps the sulphate was for that? No, it was specifically required as a desensitiser by the European nitrogen cartel, since they felt the pure nitrate was too dangerous for processing into fertiliser. Removing chunks with dynamite is trying rather hard for a Darwin award. As I said, at the time its explosive properties weren't known so this wasn't unreasonable. There are numerous stories of multi-thousand-ton ammonium nitrate piles burning for hours without exploding (Oppau was the first time there was any significant explosion involving it). Even after Texas City, there were cases of (embarrassed) firefighters watching warehouses full of ammonium nitrate quietly burn to the ground without incident. Peter.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
At 08:59 PM 9/13/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: If a nuke goes off a few dozen meters under a mountain, is there anyone there to see it? What is the sound of one mountain moving? You can get dust rising off the mountain ---find the video of the Paki tests. But not a big rising cloud. An underground test is a few *hundred* meters below surface. And sometimes you get a chimney of crumbled rock leading to either a crater or a dome on the surface, depending on the rock type; Nevada is pockmarked with them.But no big cloud.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.muenster.org/uiw/fach/chemie/material/gif/oppau.jpg Wow! I had no idea ammonium nitrate (ANFO for all intents and purposes, yes?) could produce that kind of result! How much was there? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF ...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do not. And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out about them. Osama Bin Laden - - - There aught to be limits to freedom!George Bush - - - Which one scares you more?
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
At 12:01 AM 9/12/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: No big deal? Who are they kidding? JAT, any large explosion will create a mushroom cloud. Its the blast wave reflecting off the ground that lifts the thing, plus the buoyancy of the hot gasses. If it *were* a nuke, it would be easy to detect --from Vera gamma-ray satellites staring at the earth to optical sensors (there's a characteristic nonlinear time-course of optical emissions) to fallout monitors, ground and plane based. Time will tell, and it certainly could have been a nuke (they have the SNMs), but if you do it, you talk about it, much like the Indi/Pakis did. And you can't hide a surface burst, or even a large belowground test --and an underground test that vents to the atmosphere doesn't make such a big cloud. Nukepunk
Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
No big deal? Who are they kidding? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF ...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do not. And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out about them. Osama Bin Laden - - - There aught to be limits to freedom!George Bush - - - Which one scares you more? -- http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/11/nkorea.blast/ 'Large cloud' seen over N. Korea Sunday, September 12, 2004 Posted: 0435 GMT (1235 HKT) SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- A large cloud appeared over North Korea in satellite images several days ago, but a U.S. official told CNN it is no big deal and not the result of a nuclear explosion. South Korea's Yonhap news agency is reporting a mushroom cloud over two miles (4 km) wide and a massive explosion in North Korea's northernmost province on September 9 -- the 56th anniversary of North Korea's founding. South Korea's Unification Minister Chung Dong-young said Sunday the government was aware of the reports and is checking them. The U.S. official said the cloud could be the result of a forest fire. None of North Korea's known nuclear sites are in the country's northernmost provinces. However, The New York Times Saturday reported that President Bush and his top advisers recently received intelligence reports that could indicate North Korea is preparing a nuclear test, citing senior officials with access to the intelligence.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 05:07:55PM -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.muenster.org/uiw/fach/chemie/material/gif/oppau.jpg Wow! I had no idea ammonium nitrate (ANFO for all intents and purposes, yes?) could produce that kind of result! How much was there? About 4.5 kT of 50:50 ammonium nitrate/ammonium sulfate mix. One of the largest, if not *the* largest nonnuclear explosions ever. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a __ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net pgpYj9UwO0FvC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
That of course brings us full circle: how many fuels can produce a blast which results in a 2+ mile mushroom? That's a *lot* of explosive force. Blast sets off the forest fire, fire makes the smoke. Not a problem. Go visit Northern California in late summer firestorm season (though we don't need fertilizer plants to start fires; smaller accidents or stupid people can do the job just fine.) At 03:07 PM 9/12/2004, J.A. Terranson wrote: http://www.muenster.org/uiw/fach/chemie/material/gif/oppau.jpg Wow! I had no idea ammonium nitrate (ANFO for all intents and purposes, yes?) could produce that kind of result! How much was there? No FO, just AN all by itself. NH4NO3 turns into N2 + 2H2O + O, and the leftover O finds something productive to do, like combine with another O into O2, or burn some nearby carbon, and it's hot enough the H2O is gaseous also. If you've got FO, it'll happily combine with the spare O, producing lots of heat and speeding up the reaction. The first earthquake-like event I experienced was when a chemical plant across the river from where I lived blew up; I think it was a fertilizer plant of some sort. (I was in Delaware; the plant was in New Jersey, and it was ~1968.) Fertilizer plants blow up real good; about the only thing better are ammunition depots and maybe explosives plants, and usually those are built to contain the explosion better. (By the way, most people think of the Parthenon as an ancient ruin; it was actually in very good shape, roof and all, until ~1850, when the Greeks were using it as an ammunition depot during one of their wars with the Turks and the Turks blew it up.) Bill Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
Variola wrote... If it *were* a nuke, it would be easy to detect --from Vera gamma-ray satellites staring at the earth to optical sensors (there's a characteristic nonlinear time-course of optical emissions) to fallout monitors, ground and plane based. --and an underground test that vents to the atmosphere doesn't make such a big cloud. I had thought that one of the main tests was seismic...from what I understood, Seismic monitors in the US can detect nu-cu-lar tests (above or below ground) and even guess where and the size of the blast. -TD _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Thomas Shaddack wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, J.A. Terranson wrote: No big deal? Who are they kidding? A 2-mile wide cloud is WAY too big to be caused by a single explosion, unless REALLY big. Exactly. And there aren't many things *that* big. The forest fire claim sounds more plausible in this regard. An existing cloud could be used for masking, though. Wait a minute: since when does a forest fire create explosions? Or have enough ground force to push up a mushroom cloud? But a surface or atmospheric blast would produce a flash plowing through the entire EM spectrum; from long-wave radio to microwaves to hard gamma. That's something the satellites Up There can't miss even through a smoke cloud - at least if they are still operational or replaced by newer ones. Agreed. Except that _I_ do not have access to those sattelites, so I don't know what it is they saw (or didn't see). (Remember the strong flashes of gamma bursts, originally discovered by satellites observing the nuclear test ban: http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast19sep97_2.htm.) Also a disruption of this kind would be perceivable in long range, possibly by quite many people. And, lo, a *lot* of people noticed it. An underground blast, if not screwed up, wouldn't produce a cloud at all. That I didn't know. However, both surface and underground blast would have a peculiar seismic signature. There is a network of both nonproliferation-surveillance and plain old scientific seismic stations all over the world. Something like that couldn't stay hidden for too long. Remember the day the the Kursk submarine became famous; the recording of the double signature, the explosion and shortly later following implosion, appeared online in couple days (or maybe even hours?) after the Event. Yes, I do remember that. I also remember everyone denying it at first. It's difficult to imagine a true nuclear blast would stay unreported for more than few days. Agreed - we can only wait and see. However, I do *not* expect that the USG would want this out if it *is* a nuclear test - Shrub is facing a PR nightmare if it is, since he is the one who pushed them into the nuclear corner. Even if it would really be a nuke test and the politicians would want to be quiet about it, there are too many subjects outside of the direct US political control to either report the measurements or the eventual pressure to not report them. According to CNN, there was also a strong blast reported in the area of a missile base. We don't know how strong the blast was, and if it couldn't be just a conventional explosion, caused by eg. a combination of a forest fire and an ammo depot. That of course brings us full circle: how many fuels can produce a blast which results in a 2+ mile mushroom? That's a *lot* of explosive force. There is also a possibility the senior officials with access to intelligence were injecting media with false information. Remember there are many subjects with different agendas here and a little psyops here and there is quite common. Let's not jump on the conclusions yet. Wait 2-3 days, optionally watch the traffic in conferences of geologists taking care of the seismic activity worldwide and in the vicinity of the area of interest. It's Saturday and many people who could know the answers are away from their instruments; let's wait what they will find on their screens on Monday morning. Hey look here Shaddack: you're ruining a perfectly good conspiracy theory here! I'll have none of this well reasoned CRAP in *my* conspiracy theory! :-) I, like many other, will be looking at this as it develops... You may be right, but, really, a *forest fire* -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF ...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do not. And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out about them. Osama Bin Laden - - - There aught to be limits to freedom!George Bush - - - Which one scares you more?
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
At 11:45 AM 9/12/2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: Time will tell, and it certainly could have been a nuke (they have the SNMs), but if you do it, you talk about it, much like the Indi/Pakis did. And you can't hide a surface burst, or even a large belowground test --and an underground test that vents to the atmosphere doesn't make such a big cloud. When the Israeli / South African nuke test was done, they didn't talk about it, they pretended it hadn't happened, and the US government, at least publicly, has continued to pretend that we don't know that Israel has weapons of Mass Destruction.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, J.A. Terranson wrote: No big deal? Who are they kidding? A 2-mile wide cloud is WAY too big to be caused by a single explosion, unless REALLY big. The forest fire claim sounds more plausible in this regard. An existing cloud could be used for masking, though. But a surface or atmospheric blast would produce a flash plowing through the entire EM spectrum; from long-wave radio to microwaves to hard gamma. That's something the satellites Up There can't miss even through a smoke cloud - at least if they are still operational or replaced by newer ones. (Remember the strong flashes of gamma bursts, originally discovered by satellites observing the nuclear test ban: http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast19sep97_2.htm.) Also a disruption of this kind would be perceivable in long range, possibly by quite many people. An underground blast, if not screwed up, wouldn't produce a cloud at all. However, both surface and underground blast would have a peculiar seismic signature. There is a network of both nonproliferation-surveillance and plain old scientific seismic stations all over the world. Something like that couldn't stay hidden for too long. Remember the day the the Kursk submarine became famous; the recording of the double signature, the explosion and shortly later following implosion, appeared online in couple days (or maybe even hours?) after the Event. It's difficult to imagine a true nuclear blast would stay unreported for more than few days. Even if it would really be a nuke test and the politicians would want to be quiet about it, there are too many subjects outside of the direct US political control to either report the measurements or the eventual pressure to not report them. According to CNN, there was also a strong blast reported in the area of a missile base. We don't know how strong the blast was, and if it couldn't be just a conventional explosion, caused by eg. a combination of a forest fire and an ammo depot. There is also a possibility the senior officials with access to intelligence were injecting media with false information. Remember there are many subjects with different agendas here and a little psyops here and there is quite common. Let's not jump on the conclusions yet. Wait 2-3 days, optionally watch the traffic in conferences of geologists taking care of the seismic activity worldwide and in the vicinity of the area of interest. It's Saturday and many people who could know the answers are away from their instruments; let's wait what they will find on their screens on Monday morning.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
J.A. Terranson wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Thomas Shaddack wrote: The forest fire claim sounds more plausible in this regard. An existing cloud could be used for masking, though. Wait a minute: since when does a forest fire create explosions? Or have enough ground force to push up a mushroom cloud? [...] That of course brings us full circle: how many fuels can produce a blast which results in a 2+ mile mushroom? That's a *lot* of explosive force. Doesn't have to work like that. The mushroom cloud is not pushed up by blast, it's carried up by hot air rising, which is replaced by cooler air rushing in below. There was a visible mushroom cloud at Hamburg in 1943 - I'm not sure but I suspect that that may have been the event that put the phrase into the language. FWIW the BBC is now saying that the NKs are claiming it was a civil engineering explosion connected with a hydro project. As with other list members I assume that if the explosion was nuclear someone would have detected EM from it immediately radioactive particles soon after. And I also assume, perhaps with less justification, that at least some of those someones would have made the knowledge public - it must include at least military early warning organisation of China, Russia the US, and very possibly Japan, SK, UK maybe other countries as well, and also probably a number of space agencies and academic researchers. Would they all conspire to suppress knowledge of NK nuclear explosion? And if there was such a test, how long before China stomped all over them. Last thing they want is a looney dictator with nukes on their borders (If only to pre-empt Russia, US, or Japan intervening). Even if both the Chinese state capitalists and the North Korean absolute divine monarchy still use the locally redundant word Communist when describing themselves to us Western barbarians. Sometimes my friend's enemy isn't my enemy's friend.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: At 12:01 AM 9/12/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: No big deal? Who are they kidding? JAT, any large explosion will create a mushroom cloud. Its the blast wave reflecting off the ground that lifts the thing, plus the buoyancy of the hot gasses. Yes, I understand all this - mushroom cloud != nuclear explosion. If it *were* a nuke, it would be easy to detect --from Vera gamma-ray satellites staring at the earth to optical sensors (there's a characteristic nonlinear time-course of optical emissions) to fallout monitors, ground and plane based. Which _I_ do not have access to ;-) Time will tell, Exactly. and it certainly could have been a nuke (they have the SNMs), but if you do it, you talk about it, much like the Indi/Pakis did. If I were in Jong's slippers, I would not discuss it - I would just do it, and let everyone draw their own [obvious] conclusion. Remember, his pattern has been to only discuss things (even when already obvious to everyone else) only when _he_ felt like it. And you can't hide a surface burst, or even a large belowground test This conflicts somewhat with a previously expressed opinion (Shaddack?). I was under the impression that underground tests, unless performed with very tiny nukes at very great depth, produced visible clouds from the blast waves. --and an underground test that vents to the atmosphere doesn't make such a big cloud. Nukepunk -- Yours, J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0xBD4A95BF ...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do not. And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out about them. Osama Bin Laden - - - There aught to be limits to freedom!George Bush - - - Which one scares you more?
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 12:01:29AM -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: No big deal? Who are they kidding? Has it occured to anyone this might be a covert US (or Chinese or ) operation to destroy the PRK nuke test setup, say with cruise missiles, stealth B2 bombers, or a infiltrated sabotage team ? That could produce a large explosion (but little radioactivity)... And with obvious PRK preparations for a test far advanced (see today's NYT) , I would think it was now or never for such a covert attack. Maybe that is why Dubya was completely shitfaced getting off the helo at the WH on the way back from campaigning in Johnstown Pa this past Thursday ? Too much pressure to keep that Jim Beam bottle in the cabinet... one almost can't blame him... -- Dave Emery N1PRE, [EMAIL PROTECTED] DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
Ken Brown wrote... And if there was such a test, how long before China stomped all over them. Last thing they want is a looney dictator with nukes on their borders (If only to pre-empt Russia, US, or Japan intervening). Even if both the Chinese state capitalists and the North Korean absolute divine monarchy still use the locally redundant word Communist when describing themselves to us Western barbarians. I think this pretty much nails it. Actually, I was imagining that there was still enough relationship left between PRC and NK for the Chinese to say, Uh, a nuclear test would not be a good idea, meaning (in Chinese speak), No way you're gonna do that. I'm sure the Chinese at this point regard their relationship with NK as baggage, though I know the Chinese do re-patriate NK refugees, so they're at least maintaining pretenses. -TD _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
Eugen Leitl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: About 4.5 kT of 50:50 ammonium nitrate/ammonium sulfate mix. One of the largest, if not *the* largest nonnuclear explosions ever. The largest man-made explosion is usually claimed to be Halifax (about 3000 tons of assorted HE's), but there are a pile of others that also count: Oppau, Texas City, Port Chicago, Lake Denmark, Silvertown, Fauld (more explosives involved than Halifax, but less loss of life, so Halifax seems to get all the publicity), etc etc etc. Peter.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
J.A. Terranson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wow! I had no idea ammonium nitrate (ANFO for all intents and purposes, yes?) could produce that kind of result! How much was there? 4,500 tons, of which only 10% detonated. (The nitrate was desensitised with ammonium sulfate and stored outside, whenever anyone needed any they'd drill holes and blast off chunks with dynamite. Ammonium nitrate has a complex chemical reaction that wasn't really understood until after the Texas City disaster in 1947, there had previously been fires in several bulk ammonium nitrate stores without any explosions. At Oppau it was assumed that amatol (a standard military explosive, ammonium nitrate + TNT) had somehow got into the piles and that was what caused the explosion). Peter.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
At 06:23 PM 9/12/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: I had thought that one of the main tests was seismic...from what I understood, Seismic monitors in the US can detect nu-cu-lar tests (above or below ground) and even guess where and the size of the blast. Yes. Seismic sensors see some foreshock activity before an earthquake including the big ones. A nuke starts instantly. Standard S P wave triangulation gives you the location. You can try to hide a blast (in sand; or in an excavated void) but its tough. At 06:50 AM 9/13/04 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: About 4.5 kT of 50:50 ammonium nitrate/ammonium sulfate mix. One of the largest, if not *the* largest nonnuclear explosions ever. Ammonium sulphate would not have exploded. Its the nitrate that is the fun group. It has an oxygen surplus, so anythign (like the rest of the ship) vaporized by the detonation would probaby burn. Fuel oil is cheap; aluminum dust is more energetic. At 10:40 PM 9/12/04 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: No FO, just AN all by itself. NH4NO3 turns into N2 + 2H2O + O, Slow decomposition yields nitrous oxide, ie the fun oxide. 19th century chemistry. (And anesthesiology!) The first earthquake-like event I experienced was when a chemical plant across the river from where I lived blew up; I think it was a fertilizer plant of some sort. (I was in Delaware; the plant was in New Jersey, and it was ~1968.) The DuPont black powder nitro plants in Delaware have three strong walls, the weak side faces the river. When they blow up, its much safer. Unless you're on the river, of course. The N Korean blast could have been their missiles blowing up due to screw ups. There's a lot of energy in the fuels. Or it could have been a test of their nuke-testing systems. The media uses the phrase October surprise, if NK detonates just before the elections. Of course, others are working on their own October gift to W. When the WTC towers fell, it was something like a 3 on the Richter scale. Lots of gravitational energy.
Re: Forest Fire responsible for a 2.5mi *mushroom cloud*?
At 06:59 AM 9/14/04 +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote: (The nitrate was desensitised with ammonium sulfate and stored outside, whenever anyone needed any they'd drill holes and blast off chunks with dynamite. AN is extremely deliquescent; perhaps the sulphate was for that? Removing chunks with dynamite is trying rather hard for a Darwin award. When I was a teen I would save the instant-cold packs after soccer games, and recrystalize the AN within. It melts and gives off bubbles but I never collected enough N20 nor did it detonate.
