Re: Fwd: Informer alert: War begins in Iraq
Harmon Seaver wrote: What sort of dictatorship is this where the people own automatic weapons freely? Shades of Switzerland! Soviet Armenia? When they fell out with the Azeris they got their scratch army together in /days/ According to the Russian news they used hunting rifles. I'd been reading enough of the gun-wanking propaganda from the US on lists like this to think that people in places like Armenia didn't have guns. Turns out that in some rural parts of USSR quite a lot of people had them and of course it all made no difference to anything political whatever as long as the Soviets were willing to control the place. As soon as it became obvious that no Russians intended to die to keep Armenia in the Union, things changed.
Re: Fwd: Informer alert: War begins in Iraq
On Fri, Mar 21, 2003 at 12:40:52PM +, Ken Brown wrote: Harmon Seaver wrote: What sort of dictatorship is this where the people own automatic weapons freely? Shades of Switzerland! Soviet Armenia? When they fell out with the Azeris they got their scratch army together in /days/ According to the Russian news they used hunting rifles. I'd been reading enough of the gun-wanking propaganda from the US on lists like this to think that people in places like Armenia didn't have guns. Turns out that in some rural parts of USSR quite a lot of people had them and of course it all made no difference to anything political whatever as long as the Soviets were willing to control the place. As soon as it became obvious that no Russians intended to die to keep Armenia in the Union, things changed. Well, yes, of course people most places have hunting weapons, even in oppressive states like Nazi Germany and the USSR -- even in England, I believe -- but everything I've read so far about Iraq is talking about AK-47s. Supposedly hundreds of thousands of civilians at the very least own them, and, according to varied news items, they are either issued by the gov't or people just buy them on the open market. The open weapons markets of Pakistan and Afgahnistan have been world reknowned for ages, but I was very surprised to learn this about Iraq. Lebanon had no control over weapons, of course, but I wonder if the whole Middle East isn't just flowing with Kalashnikovs with little real restrictions. Perhaps most of the world is -- only the fascist police states of the 1st World being anti-gun. BTW, here's a neat little accessory for your Kalashnikov: http://www.audiobooksforfree.com/kalashnikov/Ak-mp3.asp -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com We are now in America's Darkest Hour. http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org hoka hey!
Re: Fwd: Informer alert: War begins in Iraq
I've been thinking about this post, and though I agreed with the general gist of it, there were some points I thought worth mentioning... May thousands of AmeriKKKan troops die painfully, along with their handlers on the East Coast, as a deterrent to future illegal wars of aggression. This was the part I had to think about the most. Right now, my feeling is that it would be a tragedy for a large mass of nearly-lumpen soldiers, educated by the US school system, to have to take the brunt of responsibility for this. And, if Iraq used some Weapons of Mass Destruction (read cheap-n-easy playing field levelers), Bush and the Republican Agit-prop machine would basically say, See? They had all this stuff all along and that's why we launched this war. And now, that's why everyone needs to support it. And I bet this would work. May the world recognize that the UN can perform no other function than to crawl on its hands and knees to kiss AmeriKKKa's ass, and cease to take it seriously. Hey--I thought the UN did OK this time around. In the end, the UN is starting to look like a very fancy and expensive debating society, and that's of some kind of value somewhere, I think. May the anti-war movement paralyze AmeriKKKa with demonstrations and work stoppages, and cause consequences of significance to the economy and standard of living of the world's war-monger. This would be the most effective means possible right now, as far as I'm concerned. And the only thing to possibly cause the bloated leach of the military industrial complex to drop off its host for a little while (Man, some wierd taste in this blood...I'm full anyway...) May the AmeriKKKan people cease to send their tax dollars to the Racist Apartheid Zionist Entity, where they are spent to kill Palestinian children with AmeriKKKan weapons, and run over peace activists multiple times with AmeriKKKan bulldozers, and then attack and teargas the memorial service. After looking at US foreign policy, particularly since WWII, I have slowly been drawn to the conclusion that racism is a consistent and underlying theme. These muslims don't want peace and freedom, and they'll choke us to death with their oil supplies if we let them. That's just their nature. Something like thatI like to simplify things for effect. May Ariel Sharon and George W. Bush be forced to face their victims in an international court of law, and be tried and sentenced appropriately. They'd be at the end of a long line, with Henry Kissinger in the front. _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Fwd: Informer alert: War begins in Iraq
On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Ken Brown wrote: Despite what Eric Cordian and others have said here, I think it unlikely that there will be a big body-bag outcome for the US. The force balance is so overwhelmingly one-way, and most Iraqis really don't want the current Ba'athist government. A lot of them will give up quickly. Could be wrong of course. I agree, I think once the tanks roll it'll be over in 3 days. Just like Afghanistan, there'll always be somebody shooting, but it won't be any militarily organized large scale operation. Large-scale House-to-house fighting unlikely. At least not for any but the head family palaces. Most cities will simply not want to fight. 1) if they really only want to rule Iraq directly for 6 weeks or 2 months that means EITHER they hand over to an international peacekeeping force (bloody unlikely given current PNAC drumbeating in Bushite circles) OR else the new Iraqi government is essentially the successor to the old, with the civil administration and most of the military still intact. Neither, we've already picked out the new dogs from a different kennel. Trained in the US of course :-) Only alternative to that that can preserve an Iraqi state is US (or just possibly UK - after all we've had a lot of practice) direct rule for /years/ We don't just dfeat Iraq, we conquer it. Bush still claims the USA is not an imperialist power. We'll conquer for a few days, then set up a military dictatorship to be replaced by a new dictatorship elected by the people. Then we'll steal all the oil :-) 2) What happens if the US forces liberate somewhere (Basra would be first) and they locals say thanks very much for liberating us, now we are free we are going to declare a Republic and hold elections and have our own constitution modelled on yours... Do the Americans have to say thanks very much for the flattery, but don't you move a muscle until we can get you ragheads back under Baghdad where you belong? No, we'll help put on the show of liberation. We'll tell them who they can elect, and all the choices will be US backed. It'll be great theater, and the US will control everything indirectly. 3) what about the Kurds? What about the Kurds? Does the US force them to rejoin Iraq? Does the US continue to deny them Kirkuk and other cities of their homeland? Does the US allow Turkish troops to invade northern Iraq (i.e. remain in there- there are probably some already) Is this the end for US support for Turkish domination over the area? If the Turks refuse to play ball, is it the end for US support for Turkish membership of NATO? Who knows anything about the Kurds? Who remembers Armenia? Who cares? Nobody in the US. The Kurds will be fucked from all sides and will have to fight a bit harder than before because there won't be anything to balance the Turkish attacks. The US is definitly pissed at Turkey, but it's still too important militarily to ignore. The US needs Turkey in a big way. They were just too stupid in how they went about selling a war. 4) And what about those Iranian People's Mujahideen who supported the wrong side in the first Gulf war and have been camping out in eastern Iraq for 20 years? Their strength is often exaggerated, but they do have tanks and they have no-where else to go. Their backs are really against the wall (OK, the river, but its the same thing). Once upon a time they were better soldiers than any units of the native Iraqi army. Do they fight to the death? Or just surrender? What does the US want with a whole load of heavily armed neo-communist militant Iranian Muslims? Send them back to Iran to face the music? I don't think so. We'll leave them alone. They don't really want to get Daisy Cutter's or MOAB's dropped on them. By staying out of it they'll be effectively neutralized. The next government dictatorship will have to deal with it. But they are far away from the oil, so they don't matter much. Bush would like this to last a long time. He needs the votes in 2004. But that's way to far away, and if the economy stays stagnant because we can't really pay for this mess, all his heroics now won't be too useful a year from now. Fortunatly, he really is an idiot. Unfortunatly too I guess. Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
RE: Fwd: Informer alert: War begins in Iraq
On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Trei, Peter wrote: There are other factors that the Turks have on their minds, aside from the US and NATO. Turkey is anxious to join the European Union, and has been cleaning up its human rights act to gain acceptance. Turkey recently lifted martial law in the Kurdish areas (do they still call them mountain Turks?). Turkish aggression against the Kurds in northern Iraq would scuttle their chances for many years. Yeah, I forgot about that. That's part of the reason they voted to not let the US use their turf - they want to keep the French and Germans happy. That's a damn good reason for them to leave the Kurds alone, pure economics! And if the EU can get a foothold into Turkey to kick the US out, that helps them a lot militarily as well. I don't think the US is looking too far into the future on this one at all! Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Fwd: Informer alert: War begins in Iraq
At 02:36 PM 3/20/03 +, Ken Brown wrote: Despite what Eric Cordian and others have said here, I think it unlikely that there will be a big body-bag outcome for the US. The force balance is so overwhelmingly one-way, and most Iraqis really don't want the current Ba'athist government. A lot of them will give up quickly. Could be wrong of course. ... Large-scale House-to-house fighting unlikely. Iraqis don't have that Bill of Rights bullet item that bars troops in houses. Picture a few tens of K of lone (or paired) well armed RK loyalists holed up in spare rooms with families. Whose job is to impede progress into the city. Who know they are eventual toast if the locals are no longer held by fear. And in a 1-party plutocracy like Iraq, that means with the Ba'ath party still intact, maybe even including Saddam's Tikriti friends relations. They run most military large business organisations huge parts of civil government media. After the city is ours, we let natural tendancies operate for a few months. Ie, payback time. The citizens know who needs to hang better than we do. The blind eye lets the eye-for-an-eye cleanse society. We'll of course save a few of the bigger trophies for wartrial photo-ops.
Re: Fwd: Informer alert: War begins in Iraq
Stuart writes: War has been declared against Iraq by the US President George Bush. Initial air strikes have been launched on Baghdad, which the US said were targeted at senior Iraqi leaders. British forces have not yet been involved and the order to begin a ground war has not been given. May thousands of AmeriKKKan troops die painfully, along with their handlers on the East Coast, as a deterrent to future illegal wars of aggression. May the world recognize that the UN can perform no other function than to crawl on its hands and knees to kiss AmeriKKKa's ass, and cease to take it seriously. May the anti-war movement paralyze AmeriKKKa with demonstrations and work stoppages, and cause consequences of significance to the economy and standard of living of the world's war-monger. May the AmeriKKKan people cease to send their tax dollars to the Racist Apartheid Zionist Entity, where they are spent to kill Palestinian children with AmeriKKKan weapons, and run over peace activists multiple times with AmeriKKKan bulldozers, and then attack and teargas the memorial service. May Ariel Sharon and George W. Bush be forced to face their victims in an international court of law, and be tried and sentenced appropriately. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
