RE: How to Stop Telemarketers...
Adam Stenseth wrote: Just for my own edification, does this apply to landline service as well(or other government-sanctioned monopolies)? For example, are your calling habits and landline number assets of your phone company? Many of them seem to think so. Yes, they are. Just as the details of your credit card transactions are the property of the credit card company. Which is why your detailed transaction records, including your name, are available for sale from your credit company to anybody that wants to buy thousands of them. --Lucky
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
Technological solutions are preferable over statist solutions (which don't usually even work, as the statists write the rules and exempt themselves and their friends). Ya know Tim May, you say a lotta crazy shit but every now and then you say something that really makes some sense. (Suspiciously like Choate...) _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 06:20 PM, Lucky Green wrote: Harmon Seaver wrote: Tim mentioned cell phones and the lack of telemarketing calls on his, but really that's only because, at this point at least, the cellphone number lists haven't been sold. This might change in the near future, as several wireless providers have been considering selling their subscriber lists. It's hard to see how they could do this, however, since, unlike landline calls -- annoying enough -- spam calls to your cellphone would cost *you* money. Given this fact, one wonders why the cell phone providers have not yet made the list available for download by anybody. Well, they'll figure it out in due time. Someone will, but as an act of vengeance against their bosses. Or a rival cellphone company that doesn't charge for incoming calls (airtime) and hence have no incentive to promote incoming calls. Why this counterintuitive effect? The golden goose effect. If customers of Sprint or Verizon, etc., are being bombarded by incoming spam calls, some of them will switch off their phones completely, will switch to services with no incoming call fees, or, in some cases, will stop using cellphones altogether. (And some fraction will call their cellphone companies and demand their number be changed, make threats, cause PR hassles, etc.) This makes it unwise for anyone to leak the numbers...unless they wish to embarass the companies or drive business to no-incoming-fees providers. --Tim May Ben Franklin warned us that those who would trade liberty for a little bit of temporary security deserve neither. This is the path we are now racing down, with American flags fluttering.-- Tim May, on events following 9/11/2001
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 06:20:02PM -0800, Lucky Green wrote: Harmon Seaver wrote: Tim mentioned cell phones and the lack of telemarketing calls on his, but really that's only because, at this point at least, the cellphone number lists haven't been sold. This might change in the near future, as several wireless providers have been considering selling their subscriber lists. It's hard to see how they could do this, however, since, unlike landline calls -- annoying enough -- spam calls to your cellphone would cost *you* money. Given this fact, one wonders why the cell phone providers have not yet made the list available for download by anybody. Well, they'll figure it out in due time. Why would they do that, any more than the landlines would release unpublished numbers, since that's what cell numbers are now? And I'm sure there would be tremendous demand for them to a) not charge for incoming calls, or b) start filtering for spammers. But I imagine there'd be no small number (or rather a large class action) of suits for releasing unpublished numbers if the cell company did it deliberately. And if it were leaked, they'd just be forced to change them all. I seriously doubt very many would put up with having their precious minutes wasted by spammers. Especially those who have already given up their landlines altogether to be rid of the hassles. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:15 PM, jet wrote: At 12:08 -0800 2002/12/06, Tim May wrote: If you don't wish to be telephoned, keep your number secret. One word: wardialing. Three words: screen your calls (as many of us already do). Many of us have at least two phone numbers: one that is widely accessible, published even. Another that is private, often a cellphone. In my 6 years of using a cellphone, whose number I do not give out to many, I have only gotten two spam calls that I know of: both were from a hotel company that I gave my cellphone number to when I was traveling. I told them the first time not to call me again, that this would make me less likely to use their hotel. The second time I yelled. That was more than a year ago and my cellphone has remained blissfully spamfree. Between Caller ID screening, answering machine screening, use of cellphones, and hanging up immediately, telephone spam should not be a problem requiring government solution...especially as the language of the First Amendment is so strong. Technological solutions are preferable over statist solutions (which don't usually even work, as the statists write the rules and exempt themselves and their friends). --Tim May The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the government to rein in people's rights. --President William J. Clinton
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 04:53 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote: Tim mentioned cell phones and the lack of telemarketing calls on his, but really that's only because, at this point at least, the cellphone number lists haven't been sold. This might change in the near future, as several wireless providers have been considering selling their subscriber lists. It's hard to see how they could do this, however, since, unlike landline calls -- annoying enough -- spam calls to your cellphone would cost *you* money. Again, there's a very straightforward analysis. Surprisingly, much of contract law is in precise agreement with what most libertarians would think about this. Namely, Alice can sell her list of numbers she has with Alice Cellular if she chooses to, unless she has made contractual obligations (the much-referenced consideration) with Bob and Chuck and Dora and so on. As simple as that. If Bob wants to have a cellphone number that is not sold to others, he should make arrangements with the cellphone company. Whether incoming calls cost him money is neither here nor there to the basic issues. --Tim May
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
Tim May wrote: Many of us have at least two phone numbers: one that is widely accessible, published even. Another that is private, often a cellphone. In my 6 years of using a cellphone, whose number I do not give out to many, I have only gotten two spam calls that I know of: both were from a hotel company that I gave my cellphone number to when I was traveling. I told them the first time not to call me again, that this would make me less likely to use their hotel. The second time I yelled. That was more than a year ago and my cellphone has remained blissfully spamfree. Unfortunately, this isn't possible in the uk - the cellphone number space is something like 80% utilised; wardialling gives a very high hit rate, and although you can't do any pre-targetting I don't think spammers really care.
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 05:49 PM, Adam Stenseth wrote: On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote: If Bob wants to have a cellphone number that is not sold to others, he should make arrangements with the cellphone company. Just for my own edification, does this apply to landline service as well(or other government-sanctioned monopolies)? For example, are your calling habits and landline number assets of your phone company? Many of them seem to think so. The principal is clear. If Alice knows something about Bob, and has not made contractual arrangements with Bob to restrict her, she may of course sell that information as she wishes. This follows from the noncoercion principal, formally. If Bob doesn't wish Alice to obtain, remember, sell, or otherwise transfer what she has learned, it is up to him to arrange in advance for Alice not to do these things. This may involve a contract, or it may involve technology. (For example, using throwaway cellphones.) Of course, this isn'y [generally] as applicable with wireless service since [at the moment, in most places] you can shop around for service. But when a local monopoly telco says that your data is their asset and the prospect of having that data sold is a condition of doing business with them, from a libertarian perspective, is regulation of what they can do with that data acceptable? I look to ways of bypassing so-called monopolies, not to using state power to ameliorate the effects of state-granted monopolies. Thinking the same state which granted the monopoly is the place to go for a fix is silly. --Tim May (.sig for Everything list background) Corralitos, CA. Born in 1951. Retired from Intel in 1986. Current main interest: category and topos theory, math, quantum reality, cosmology. Background: physics, Intel, crypto, Cypherpunks
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
I was thinking of disabling all the ringers in my phones and setting up an old Mac with a cid enabled modem to announce all calls. The unavailable ones it would keep silent for. :) Getting wires all over the house and a PA amp is the part I haven't done yet. Could work well as an alarm clock too.. :) --Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ --*--:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Harmon Seaver wrote: Yeah, but that stuff doesn't stop the calls. We use caller ID and don't pick up for anything that says unknown caller which stops most, but just the ringing pisses me off. I'm going to try the tones. I've also read of a little box you can buy which does the same thing, but so you don't even hear the phone ring at all. On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 12:08:22PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: I'll have to try this (and it should work seeing how I'm Tyler Durden!). But I have utilized a stopgap strategy for a number of years now that has worked pretty good: 1) If I hear silence for more than a moment or two I hang up the phone. 2) If I hear a large number of people talking in the background when I pick up, I hang up the phone. 3) If someone replies to my hello with another hello I hang up the phone (think about it--no one who knows you and has called you will simply reply 'hello' after you've picked up the phone). It also helps to speak a language you don't think the telemarketer understands...they'll hang up the phone pretty quickly if you're talking in Chinese, for instance. (And if they have a Chinese accent I'll talk to them in Spanish.) From: Steve Schear [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: How to Stop Telemarketers... Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:07:04 -0800 Most Telemarketers use what is called Predictive Dialers, which are PCs with software that dials ever number in a phone exchange until it gets lucky. Now you can use their own technology against them, and it's legal... Here is how their system works: the dialer calls your number, you answer, and you have probably notice the line appears dead after you said, Hello. What their computer is doing is listening for a short burst of audio, your HELLO, followed by a period of silence. With this heard, it will log your phone number as valid and transfer the call to an available telemarketer, the reason for the delay before someone comes on line. Now, if their computer receives a long audio burst (an answering machine) Hello, this is Alan Carlton, then it will disconnect, but it will log you phone number as valid, for a later call-back. Oh Lovely! Some are even capable of detecting Fax tones and will even transmit a fax trying to sell selling something you're probably are not interested in. However, do not answer, or when you do answer the phone, or if fax tones are detected, or if it detects an answering machine, in all four (4) cases IT LOGS YOUR NUMBER AS A GOOD PHONE NUMBER FOR FUTURE CALL- BACK --- PLUS THE COMPANY IS ALSO SELLING THESE VERIFIED VALID NUMBERS LIST TO OTHER TELEMARKETERS. A SIMPLE WAY TO STAY OFF THE LIST IS TO USE THEIR OWN TECHNOLOGY AGAINST THEM. The predictive dialer's software also looks for NON-valid phone numbers, and there is a simple way you can make your phone number appear invalid to the telemarketers' computers, thus they do not call back and accumulate no database, at least with your number, to sell other Telemarketers. Here is how to do it: If you call a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service you will hear 3 short tones, doo...dah...dee, thanks to Ma-Bell. Each time you Refresh this page you should hear, doo...dah...dee. The actual frequency of these tones are 985.2 Hz, 1370.6 Hz, and 1776.7 Hz. Guess what the telemarketers' software does when it detects these 3 tones at the beginning of your outgoing message? It thinks it has reached a line that is disconnected or is no longer in service. So, it disconnects and does not log your phone number as a working number. BINGO! NOW record these onto you outgoing message or voice mail announcement, and start exterminating telemarketers. Try this example, but use your own name, doo...dah...dee, Hello, This is Tyler Durden. It must be at the beginning of your announcement to work. You may have to explain it to you friends, but they will soon have it on theirs' too. CLICK ON THE FOLLOWING LINK TO PLAY THE 3 TONES.
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Tyler Durden wrote: But I have utilized a stopgap strategy for a number of years now that has worked pretty good: 1) If I hear silence for more than a moment or two I hang up the phone. Yeah, I've done that for a while now. But here in wisconsin (USA) we have a new law that goes into effect on Jan 1: The state maintains an official no call list. If your name is on the list and telemarketers call, the state can take them to court. I don't know how effective it'll be, but I think losing money in court would be enough of an incentive to pay attention to the list. If enough states do it the telemarketers may decide it's worth fighting in court. Life gets interesting at that point... Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
But I have utilized a stopgap strategy for a number of years now that has worked pretty good: From a former telemarketer, the best strategy is to use federal law to your advantage. Federal law requires telemarketers to maintain a do not call list, which is rather self explainatory. I think once your name and number are added to this list they cannot call you for something like 10 years. There are not that many major telemarketing firms, and if you knock a few of the biggest ones off you will get very few (if any) calls. The best way to say it is Please add me to your do not call list, you don't need any confirmation after that, you can just hang up. Some telemarketers will try to read you a disclaimer saying that it may take up to 30 days to remove your name and blahdy blah, but they are still required to put your name on the list. Be careful not to simply say take me off your list because the major firms are very crafty about that, they'll say something like we'll immediately remove you from this list, is there anything else I can do for you? and that only takes you off *that* specific calling campaign. The do not call list is mandated by law, though, and is company wide. Using this technique I haven't gotten a telemarketing call in about... 2 months, and probably 2 months again for the one prior to that. The tone phreaking trick is pretty cool, though, a technical solution to a social problem.
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
I'll have to try this (and it should work seeing how I'm Tyler Durden!). But I have utilized a stopgap strategy for a number of years now that has worked pretty good: 1) If I hear silence for more than a moment or two I hang up the phone. 2) If I hear a large number of people talking in the background when I pick up, I hang up the phone. 3) If someone replies to my hello with another hello I hang up the phone (think about it--no one who knows you and has called you will simply reply 'hello' after you've picked up the phone). It also helps to speak a language you don't think the telemarketer understands...they'll hang up the phone pretty quickly if you're talking in Chinese, for instance. (And if they have a Chinese accent I'll talk to them in Spanish.) From: Steve Schear [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: How to Stop Telemarketers... Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:07:04 -0800 Most Telemarketers use what is called Predictive Dialers, which are PCs with software that dials ever number in a phone exchange until it gets lucky. Now you can use their own technology against them, and it's legal... Here is how their system works: the dialer calls your number, you answer, and you have probably notice the line appears dead after you said, Hello. What their computer is doing is listening for a short burst of audio, your HELLO, followed by a period of silence. With this heard, it will log your phone number as valid and transfer the call to an available telemarketer, the reason for the delay before someone comes on line. Now, if their computer receives a long audio burst (an answering machine) Hello, this is Alan Carlton, then it will disconnect, but it will log you phone number as valid, for a later call-back. Oh Lovely! Some are even capable of detecting Fax tones and will even transmit a fax trying to sell selling something you're probably are not interested in. However, do not answer, or when you do answer the phone, or if fax tones are detected, or if it detects an answering machine, in all four (4) cases IT LOGS YOUR NUMBER AS A GOOD PHONE NUMBER FOR FUTURE CALL- BACK --- PLUS THE COMPANY IS ALSO SELLING THESE VERIFIED VALID NUMBERS LIST TO OTHER TELEMARKETERS. A SIMPLE WAY TO STAY OFF THE LIST IS TO USE THEIR OWN TECHNOLOGY AGAINST THEM. The predictive dialer's software also looks for NON-valid phone numbers, and there is a simple way you can make your phone number appear invalid to the telemarketers' computers, thus they do not call back and accumulate no database, at least with your number, to sell other Telemarketers. Here is how to do it: If you call a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service you will hear 3 short tones, doo...dah...dee, thanks to Ma-Bell. Each time you Refresh this page you should hear, doo...dah...dee. The actual frequency of these tones are 985.2 Hz, 1370.6 Hz, and 1776.7 Hz. Guess what the telemarketers' software does when it detects these 3 tones at the beginning of your outgoing message? It thinks it has reached a line that is disconnected or is no longer in service. So, it disconnects and does not log your phone number as a working number. BINGO! NOW record these onto you outgoing message or voice mail announcement, and start exterminating telemarketers. Try this example, but use your own name, doo...dah...dee, Hello, This is Tyler Durden. It must be at the beginning of your announcement to work. You may have to explain it to you friends, but they will soon have it on theirs' too. CLICK ON THE FOLLOWING LINK TO PLAY THE 3 TONES. http://www.flash.net/~carlton2/telemark.htm steve _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
Yeah, but that stuff doesn't stop the calls. We use caller ID and don't pick up for anything that says unknown caller which stops most, but just the ringing pisses me off. I'm going to try the tones. I've also read of a little box you can buy which does the same thing, but so you don't even hear the phone ring at all. On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 12:08:22PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: I'll have to try this (and it should work seeing how I'm Tyler Durden!). But I have utilized a stopgap strategy for a number of years now that has worked pretty good: 1) If I hear silence for more than a moment or two I hang up the phone. 2) If I hear a large number of people talking in the background when I pick up, I hang up the phone. 3) If someone replies to my hello with another hello I hang up the phone (think about it--no one who knows you and has called you will simply reply 'hello' after you've picked up the phone). It also helps to speak a language you don't think the telemarketer understands...they'll hang up the phone pretty quickly if you're talking in Chinese, for instance. (And if they have a Chinese accent I'll talk to them in Spanish.) From: Steve Schear [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: How to Stop Telemarketers... Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:07:04 -0800 Most Telemarketers use what is called Predictive Dialers, which are PCs with software that dials ever number in a phone exchange until it gets lucky. Now you can use their own technology against them, and it's legal... Here is how their system works: the dialer calls your number, you answer, and you have probably notice the line appears dead after you said, Hello. What their computer is doing is listening for a short burst of audio, your HELLO, followed by a period of silence. With this heard, it will log your phone number as valid and transfer the call to an available telemarketer, the reason for the delay before someone comes on line. Now, if their computer receives a long audio burst (an answering machine) Hello, this is Alan Carlton, then it will disconnect, but it will log you phone number as valid, for a later call-back. Oh Lovely! Some are even capable of detecting Fax tones and will even transmit a fax trying to sell selling something you're probably are not interested in. However, do not answer, or when you do answer the phone, or if fax tones are detected, or if it detects an answering machine, in all four (4) cases IT LOGS YOUR NUMBER AS A GOOD PHONE NUMBER FOR FUTURE CALL- BACK --- PLUS THE COMPANY IS ALSO SELLING THESE VERIFIED VALID NUMBERS LIST TO OTHER TELEMARKETERS. A SIMPLE WAY TO STAY OFF THE LIST IS TO USE THEIR OWN TECHNOLOGY AGAINST THEM. The predictive dialer's software also looks for NON-valid phone numbers, and there is a simple way you can make your phone number appear invalid to the telemarketers' computers, thus they do not call back and accumulate no database, at least with your number, to sell other Telemarketers. Here is how to do it: If you call a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service you will hear 3 short tones, doo...dah...dee, thanks to Ma-Bell. Each time you Refresh this page you should hear, doo...dah...dee. The actual frequency of these tones are 985.2 Hz, 1370.6 Hz, and 1776.7 Hz. Guess what the telemarketers' software does when it detects these 3 tones at the beginning of your outgoing message? It thinks it has reached a line that is disconnected or is no longer in service. So, it disconnects and does not log your phone number as a working number. BINGO! NOW record these onto you outgoing message or voice mail announcement, and start exterminating telemarketers. Try this example, but use your own name, doo...dah...dee, Hello, This is Tyler Durden. It must be at the beginning of your announcement to work. You may have to explain it to you friends, but they will soon have it on theirs' too. CLICK ON THE FOLLOWING LINK TO PLAY THE 3 TONES. http://www.flash.net/~carlton2/telemark.htm steve _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
At 12:08 -0800 2002/12/06, Tim May wrote: If you don't wish to be telephoned, keep your number secret. One word: wardialing. -- J. Eric Townsend -- jet spies com buy stuff, damnit: http://www.spies.com/jet/store.html
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:08 PM, Tim May wrote: Consider this. I have your phone number, either through a phone book or told to me or however gotten, fully legally. I call your number. I offer something, perhaps something for sale, whatever. I believe the law in question specifies who is affected by it, and limits it to the more automated forms (where large lists are used for dialing). However, I'm not 100% sure; if anyone has more info I'd gladly stand corrected. I was drawing on the training for telemarketers I received at a large credit card bank. And anyone interested in liberty should be repulsed by such laws, regardless of their practical benefits. This I see as more of a differing in philosophy; the age-old contrast between Thoreau's wash your hands ideals and those of the pragmatists. The plain fact is that we live in a state where laws like this exist. Unless you are willing to live completely independent of said state (id est, moving to the middle of the desert and living in an Earthship, or what have you), you need to decide where to draw the line between repulsive and just distasteful. For some it may be the use of public roads, for some privacy laws, and for some the death penalty. In this instance the law in question falls into the distasteful category for me, but not so far as to prevent me from using all available resources to accomplish a goal (in this case peace and quiet). Best justification I can provide on little sleep.
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 10:10 AM, Greg Pelcak wrote: The best way to say it is Please add me to your do not call list, you don't need any confirmation after that, you can just hang up. Some telemarketers will try to read you a disclaimer saying that it may take up to 30 days to remove your name and blahdy blah, but they are still required to put your name on the list. ... The do not call list is mandated by law, though, and is company wide. And anyone interested in liberty should be repulsed by such laws, regardless of their practical benefits. Consider this. I have your phone number, either through a phone book or told to me or however gotten, fully legally. I call your number. I offer something, perhaps something for sale, whatever. You say to me: Put me on your do not call list. I say, Say what? Send me $30 and I'll put you on that list. The point being that there is no requirement in a free society that I keep such a list, that I honor requests to be added to such lists, and so on. If you don't wish to be telephoned, keep your number secret. I don't need permission from Big Brother to call your number. Nor does your request that I not call you obligate me not to. (Nothing personal, but I hate seeing list members here advocating statist solutions.) --Tim May A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. --Robert A. Heinlein
Re: How to Stop Telemarketers...
At 12:08 PM 12/6/2002 -0800, Tim May wrote: On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 10:10 AM, Greg Pelcak wrote: The best way to say it is Please add me to your do not call list, you don't need any confirmation after that, you can just hang up. Some telemarketers will try to read you a disclaimer saying that it may take up to 30 days to remove your name and blahdy blah, but they are still required to put your name on the list. ... The do not call list is mandated by law, though, and is company wide. The point being that there is no requirement in a free society that I keep such a list, that I honor requests to be added to such lists, and so on. If you don't wish to be telephoned, keep your number secret. I don't need permission from Big Brother to call your number. Nor does your request that I not call you obligate me not to. (Nothing personal, but I hate seeing list members here advocating statist solutions.) With this logic no one could knock at your door without first checking a list. If you want to prevent the knock put a dog in your yard to screen applicants. steve
