Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
Hi Osamu, On Tue, 2009-03-17 at 00:15 +0900, Osamu Aoki wrote: As I see now, it seems to change all_ALL behavior. It shouldn't be. Can you please give an example of a change in behaviour? cya, # -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:06:17PM +1100, Harshula wrote: Because all_ALL is confusing and needs to be deprecated. I agree all_ALL is confusing. I think all_ALL needs to be deprecated if we find good alternative. But we should not change all_ALL behavior. (I do not want user to change their set-up.) What I really should happen is completely new system with simpler design. Minor change is most annoying to user. As long as new system works better, people tends to be more foregiving with major change :-) I will send out the patch I had been working on. It was in my spam box. As I see now, it seems to change all_ALL behavior. Osamu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
Osamu :
I have no idea on Ubuntu. I am curious for gnome-language-selector Debian
situation.
For Debian distros when searching at http://packages.debian.org, I do
not see gnome-language-selector or the package language-selector
which carries it in. It has been made only for Ubuntu it appears.
Harshula + Osamu:
3) I wonder if the packages that depend on im-switch use all_ALL.
Reverse Depends:
uim-common,im-switch
skkinput,im-switch
scim-pinyin,im-switch
scim,im-switch
kinput2-common,im-switch
imhangul,im-switch
gtk-im-libthai,im-switch
gcin,im-switch
fcitx,im-switch
I do not think they should use all_ALL to set im-switch beavior (I know
this may not be followed as I know.)
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default was meant to be the system default fall
back.
im-switch package itself writes into the alternatives registry file
/var/lib/dpkg/alternatives/x-input-all_ALL for inclusion of default,
none and default-xim.
scim, uim(actually uim-xim which depends on uim-common) , gcin are
some others I have checked to find that they write into same registry
file in Debian. Haven't checked the others so could be more.
Harshula:
Then let us at a minimum,
1) Remove all_ALL from the documentation.
2) Add a check to im-switch which warns the user of a deprecated
all_ALL, if it exists.
3) Add a fake default locale that acts like a default.
4) I would prefer to use the string all for a fake locale that is
meant to represent 'all' locales, instead of the string override. It
is clear and simple.
So, I would prefer something like this
for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/all \
$HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
$HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
$HOME/.xinput.d/default \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default ; do
a). So while all_ALL to be deprecated, it will not be disallowed?
Anyway as per Osamu's point on backward compatibility it cannot be
removed from 80im-switch. So we will have all and all_ALL .
Will you be satisfied with every instead of all to avoid closely
similar fake locale names?
b). Having the line /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all would defeat the
purpose of the line below it.
scim package for CJK locales and im-switch for th_TH locale set
system-wide defaults of scim-bridge and th-xim respectively. If
another package maintainer chooses to create registry entry for
x-input-all then out-of-box readiness for those users will get
turned off.
My suggestion is to remove /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all from the
above. So the use of all would be restricted to user's own
configuration only and not for system wide configuration.
c)//3) Add a fake default locale that acts like a default.//
Why is it necessary ?
As it is now, through im-switch commands, the configuration file
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default can be sym-linked to by
$HOME/.xinput.d/all, $HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG},
$HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL. And so there is no need for the line
$HOME/.xinput.d/default in the above list.
So my suggestion is:
--
for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/all \
$HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
$HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default ; do
-
And for the fake locale all an alternative name could be every
And among the two suggestions of im-switch -e and im-switch -r
which I made in post #32 the second (for re-initialising) is not
needed with above arrangement.
~Sethu
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Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
Hi Sethu, Thanks for the updated response/clarification. I think I now understand your concerns. On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 07:33 +0530, கா. சேது | K. Sethu wrote: im-switch package itself writes into the alternatives registry file /var/lib/dpkg/alternatives/x-input-all_ALL for inclusion of default, none and default-xim. We can change the postinst script. scim, uim(actually uim-xim which depends on uim-common) , gcin are some others I have checked to find that they write into same registry file in Debian. Haven't checked the others so could be more. e.g. scim's postinst script contains: - 34 ua_inst all_ALL scim 0 35 ua_inst ja_JP scim 50 36 ua_inst ko_KR scim 50 37 ua_inst zh_CN scim 50 38 ua_inst zh_TW scim 50 39 ua_inst zh_HK scim 50 40 ua_inst zh_SG scim 50 41 ua_inst all_ALL scim-immodule 0 42 ua_inst ja_JP scim-immodule 0 43 ua_inst ko_KR scim-immodule 0 44 ua_inst zh_CN scim-immodule 0 45 ua_inst zh_TW scim-immodule 0 46 ua_inst zh_HK scim-immodule 0 47 ua_inst zh_SG scim-immodule 0 - These postinst scripts can also be updated. a). So while all_ALL to be deprecated, it will not be disallowed? Yes, as Osamu pointed out earlier, we need to read it if it exists. Will you be satisfied with every instead of all to avoid closely similar fake locale names? The proposed quasi-locale all is not the only problem. As I discovered last night we should not use default as a quasi-locale either. The string default is used in another context as a 'type' of IM. b). Having the line /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all would defeat the purpose of the line below it. scim package for CJK locales and im-switch for th_TH locale set system-wide defaults of scim-bridge and th-xim respectively. If another package maintainer chooses to create registry entry for x-input-all then out-of-box readiness for those users will get turned off. Are you saying we should not add functionality, in case a package maintainer abuses it? Similarly, there's nothing stopping a package maintainer from looping through all the locale names and setting them to a particular IM type. My suggestion is to remove /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all from the above. So the use of all would be restricted to user's own configuration only and not for system wide configuration. My preference is for there to be symmetry between the user and system quasi-locales. c)//3) Add a fake default locale that acts like a default.// Why is it necessary ? Because all_ALL is confusing and needs to be deprecated. I will send out the patch I had been working on. cya, # -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
Hi Osamu,
On Sun, 2009-02-01 at 01:11 +0900, Osamu Aoki wrote:
all_ALL is meant as fallback default as I remember.
Perhaps def_DEF would have been a more appropriate string?
That is still awkward. Why not default.
I prefer default too. Since all_ALL exists, I assumed there was some
design decision to only use the format ll_CC.
1) I definitely agree we need a -d option. We should not be exposing the
user to rm -f ~/.xinput.d/*.
Patch welcom for squeeze. Too late for lenny.
I'll add it to my TODO list. ;-)
However, we still need an all_ALL that over-rides everything else.
Changing meaning is bad idea for upgrade. If we need override, why not
introduce override. Adding new alias is fine so we can introduce
default.
Then let us at a minimum,
1) Remove all_ALL from the documentation.
2) Add a check to im-switch which warns the user of a deprecated
all_ALL, if it exists.
3) Add a fake default locale that acts like a default.
4) I would prefer to use the string all for a fake locale that is
meant to represent 'all' locales, instead of the string override. It
is clear and simple.
So, I would prefer something like this
for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/all \
$HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
$HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
$HOME/.xinput.d/default \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default ; do
3) I wonder if the packages that depend on im-switch use all_ALL.
Reverse Depends:
uim-common,im-switch
skkinput,im-switch
scim-pinyin,im-switch
scim,im-switch
kinput2-common,im-switch
imhangul,im-switch
gtk-im-libthai,im-switch
gcin,im-switch
fcitx,im-switch
I do not think they should use all_ALL to set im-switch beavior (I know
this may not be followed as I know.)
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default was meant to be the system default fall
back.
Ok.
4) Is im-switch more complicated than it needs to be? Should we actually
take a step back and have a look at what it is trying to solve?
That is my opinion too. I have cut down as much since I took over
updates. But next step is think about much simpler infrastructure with
more flexibility for each package. ... any volunteer to make this
happen is welcome. (I think use of alternative was overkill at least
for ~/.)
I'll add this to my TODO list too. ;-)
cya,
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Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
Note : I prepared the following response after reading Harshula's bug
first report and Osamu's reply (messages marked #5 and #10
respectively) . I haven't still read fully the next 3 messages
(#15,#22 and #27 yet) which I saw only now.
With Harshula's proposed reversal of order (in first message), the
relevant lines in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80im-switch would be:
for f in $HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
$HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default ; do
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL above
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} - Well, that upsets the apple cart
for those users who
now have the luxury of relying on system-wide configurations alone
for having their preferred keymap up and running out-of-box. I
am referring to system-wide defaults for locale th_TH provisioned by
postinst of im-switch package itself and for CJK locales
provisioned by postinst of scim package.
Un-reversing the order for only those two lines for system-wide
configurations is not a solution since that would not allow us one
common
definition for the scope of all_ALL. Having difference in its
meaning for user's and system-wide configurations may well cause more
confusions.
An alternative I thought of is to restrict the use of all_ALL for
user's configurations only and not have for system-wide. If
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL is removed in above revered order
proposed by Harshula then the configuration file in the last line
(/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default) will be the fall back default for
all locales. And also those th_TH and CJK locale users will
continue to have out-of-box ready defaults.
However the deprecation of all_ALL for system-wide configuration would
require the postinst of different IME packages as well as of im-switch
pacakge, not writing to or creating anew an alternatives registry
file /var/lib/dpkg/alternatives/x-input-all_ALL. Presently postinst
of scim (in Debian Lenny but *not* in Ubuntu 8.xx) and uim (both
in Ubuntu-8.xx and Lenny) write into that file and so does postinst of
im-switch. So removing all_ALL from system-wide configurations may not
be feasible unless convention gets accepted by all parties.
Osamu wrote (in Message marked #10):
By the way, what do you tell user if they want to remove all_ALL
feature. There is no easy way other than using rm command. This is
the real problem. Maybe if we have way to remove link via im-switch
command, people will not be confused. Setting all_ALL while removing
everything else will get you what you want with current order.
I think action items are:
* improve documentation
* add new option -d which reset inputmethod link for that link, if run
without -z ll_ZZ, then it should reset for all locales.
By reset I assume you mean remove from ~/.xinput.d/ only and not
from system-wide configuration. Because if a feature of removing from
system-wide by way of sudo im-switch [ -z ll_LL] -d is also
envisioned then it would mean the use of update-alternatives
--remove-all to remove teh relevant from registry - a futile step
because scim and / or uim packages would recreate registry entries if
installed (or reinstalled) after this step.
Basically, -d is oposit of -a, -c, -s does.
Yes. im-switch -a removes only ~/.xinput.d/ll_CC where ll_CC is
locale of the session logged-in whereas im-switch -d would do a full
rm ~/.xinput.d/* - an inconsistency that needs to be avoided in my
opinion.
An alternative I could think of is to preserve the existing order of
precedences and all existing command syntax features. But Introduce
two more command features for *user's configuration* only as follows:
1. im-switch [v] -e
This is toempty out ~/.xinput.d/ . i.e., rm ~/.xinput.d/* . (May
call it -p meaning purging or anything else you consider more
appropraite).
On the execution of the command by user if there is no links or
backedups in ~/.xinput.d/ then command simply exits without any error
stae
If one or more links and/or backedups are there in ~/.xinput.d/ then,
there should be an alert that all those in ~/.xinput.d/ will be
removed and user to confirm with y + enter or cancel with
n+enter. (If only enter is pressed without y or n it should
be also taken as a n becuase for in other im-switch commands
enter without a chioce means no change.
If the user enters the same command with sudo, then the user should be
alerted that this usage is not provided for system-wide configuration
and exit.
This is feature is like reverting to factory setting for user's
configuration - well not exactly factory setting because that would
mean rmdir ~/.xinput.d which step is not really necessary.
2. im-switch [v] [z -ll_CC] -r inputmethodname
r for re-initalise - (may be you can think of better alternative for
r - like for example i) . This is to carry out following two
commands:
i). the above im-switch [v] -e
If there are no pre exisiting links / backeups in
Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
A correction to my posting #32: [..] not writing to or creating anew an alternatives registry file /var/lib/dpkg/alternatives/x-input-all_ALL. [..] It should be xinput-all_ALL and not x-input-all_ALL . ~Sethu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
retitle 513242 im-switch: inconsistent quasi-locale behaviour
thanks
Hi Osamu,
On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 22:21 +0900, Osamu Aoki wrote:
I kind of see your problem but questions are:
* is this feature?
* does this change cause side effect?
snip
If im-switch is run with ll_CC set to all_ALL and run again with ll_CC
set to the real locale, e.g. en_AU, then the inputmethodname set for
en_AU will override the inputmethodname set for all_ALL.
That is what I intended this to work.
all_ALL is meant as fallback default as I remember.
Perhaps def_DEF would have been a more appropriate string?
I think action items are:
* improve documentation
* add new option -d which reset inputmethod link for that link, if run
without -z ll_ZZ, then it should reset for all locales.
Basically, -d is oposit of -a, -c, -s does.
What do you think?
1) I definitely agree we need a -d option. We should not be exposing the
user to rm -f ~/.xinput.d/*.
2) Perhaps introducing def_DEF as fallback default will make im-switch
syntax more logical and easier to understand.
However, we still need an all_ALL that over-rides everything else.
gnome-language-selector (Ubuntu) sets scim-bridge for a particular
locale. You want the ability to over-ride such arbitrary choices.
The code would then look like:
for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
$HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
$HOME/.xinput.d/def_DEF \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/def_DEF \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default ; do
3) I wonder if the packages that depend on im-switch use all_ALL.
Reverse Depends:
uim-common,im-switch
skkinput,im-switch
scim-pinyin,im-switch
scim,im-switch
kinput2-common,im-switch
imhangul,im-switch
gtk-im-libthai,im-switch
gcin,im-switch
fcitx,im-switch
4) Is im-switch more complicated than it needs to be? Should we actually
take a step back and have a look at what it is trying to solve?
cya,
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Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
Hi,
On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 02:16:54AM +1100, Harshula wrote:
retitle 513242 im-switch: inconsistent quasi-locale behaviour
thanks
OK.
snip
all_ALL is meant as fallback default as I remember.
Perhaps def_DEF would have been a more appropriate string?
That is still awkward. Why not default.
1) I definitely agree we need a -d option. We should not be exposing the
user to rm -f ~/.xinput.d/*.
Patch welcom for squeeze. Too late for lenny.
2) Perhaps introducing def_DEF as fallback default will make im-switch
syntax more logical and easier to understand.
However, we still need an all_ALL that over-rides everything else.
Changing meaning is bad idea for upgrade. If we need override, why not
introduce override. Adding new alias is fine so we can introduce
default. In Debian, people take backward compatibility seriously. I
do not want to fight with such case.
gnome-language-selector (Ubuntu) sets scim-bridge for a particular
locale. You want the ability to over-ride such arbitrary choices.
I have no idea on Ubuntu. I am curious for gnome-language-selector
Debian situation.
The code would then look like:
How about /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80im-switch having:
for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/override \
$HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
$HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
$HOME/.xinput.d/default \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/override \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default ; do
3) I wonder if the packages that depend on im-switch use all_ALL.
Reverse Depends:
uim-common,im-switch
skkinput,im-switch
scim-pinyin,im-switch
scim,im-switch
kinput2-common,im-switch
imhangul,im-switch
gtk-im-libthai,im-switch
gcin,im-switch
fcitx,im-switch
I do not think they should use all_ALL to set im-switch beavior (I know
this may not be followed as I know.)
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default was meant to be the system default fall
back.
4) Is im-switch more complicated than it needs to be? Should we actually
take a step back and have a look at what it is trying to solve?
That is my opinion too. I have cut down as much since I took over
updates. But next step is think about much simpler infrastructure with
more flexibility for each package. ... any volunteer to make this
happen is welcome. (I think use of alternative was overkill at least
for ~/.)
Osamu
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Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
Hi,
I kind of see your problem but questions are:
* is this feature?
* does this change cause side effect?
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 03:16:51AM +1100, Harshula wrote:
Package: im-switch
Version: 1.16
Severity: important
Tags: patch
Hi,
K. Sethu brought this inconsistent behaviour to my attention [1].
im-switch(8):
im-switch [-v][-z ll_CC] -s inputmethodname
...
-z ll_CC
Set up the input method for X run under ll_CC locale (ISO 639 /
ISO 3188). When setting for all locales, use all_ALL as the
quasi-locale value here.
This documentation may have room to improve ...
If im-switch is run with ll_CC set to all_ALL and run again with ll_CC
set to the real locale, e.g. en_AU, then the inputmethodname set for
en_AU will override the inputmethodname set for all_ALL.
That is what I intended this to work.
all_ALL is meant as fallback default as I remember.
One would expect the inverse behaviour where the inputmethodname set
for all_ALL would override the inputmethodname set for en_AU.
Hmmm could you suggest documentation update to reflect current
situation?
Fixing this problem is quite straightforward. Simply, search for the
quasi-locale, all_ALL, symlink before the real locale, en_AU:
--- 80im-switch.bak 2007-12-25 01:39:19.0 +1100
+++ /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80im-switch 2009-01-28 02:29:39.0 +1100
@@ -30,10 +30,10 @@
echo Setting IM through im-switch for locale=$LNG.
# Source first found configuration under $LNG locale
-for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
- $HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
- /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
+for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
+ $HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL \
+ /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default ; do
if [ -f $f -a -r $f ]; then
echo Start IM through $f linked to $(readlink -f $f).
This suites your way of expectation but it does not suites my way of
thinking.
By the way, what do you tell user if they want to remove all_ALL
feature. There is no easy way other than using rm command. This is
the real problem. Maybe if we have way to remove link via im-switch
command, people will not be confused. Setting all_ALL while removing
everything else will get you what you want with current order.
I think action items are:
* improve documentation
* add new option -d which reset inputmethod link for that link, if run
without -z ll_ZZ, then it should reset for all locales.
Basically, -d is oposit of -a, -c, -s does.
What do you think?
Osamu
PS: I was lust using rm until now for this.
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Bug#513242: im-switch: inconsistent quasi-loacale behaviour
Package: im-switch
Version: 1.16
Severity: important
Tags: patch
Hi,
K. Sethu brought this inconsistent behaviour to my attention [1].
im-switch(8):
im-switch [-v][-z ll_CC] -s inputmethodname
...
-z ll_CC
Set up the input method for X run under ll_CC locale (ISO 639 /
ISO 3188). When setting for all locales, use all_ALL as the
quasi-locale value here.
If im-switch is run with ll_CC set to all_ALL and run again with ll_CC
set to the real locale, e.g. en_AU, then the inputmethodname set for
en_AU will override the inputmethodname set for all_ALL.
One would expect the inverse behaviour where the inputmethodname set
for all_ALL would override the inputmethodname set for en_AU.
Fixing this problem is quite straightforward. Simply, search for the
quasi-locale, all_ALL, symlink before the real locale, en_AU:
--- 80im-switch.bak 2007-12-25 01:39:19.0 +1100
+++ /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80im-switch 2009-01-28 02:29:39.0 +1100
@@ -30,10 +30,10 @@
echo Setting IM through im-switch for locale=$LNG.
# Source first found configuration under $LNG locale
-for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
- $HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
- /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
+for f in$HOME/.xinput.d/all_ALL \
+ $HOME/.xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/all_ALL \
+ /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/${LNG} \
/etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/default ; do
if [ -f $f -a -r $f ]; then
echo Start IM through $f linked to $(readlink -f $f).
cya,
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[1]
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=ce3a6c680811210331l592d40devc5da76e22945d675%40mail.gmail.com
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