Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-16 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Reinhard Tartler (2013-01-16 07:27:25)
 On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 1:20 AM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:
 
 
  I'll setup a mechanism to have libav extend the copyright file for 
  each binary packages, adding to header section a reasoned effective 
  license.
 
  ...and will start do similar for all the other packages that I am 
  involved in, as I examine copyrights and licensing for those and 
  convert to machine-readable format.
 
 TBH, I think the best way to go from here is to extend the 
 specification to include extra fields that cover the effective license 
 of given binary packages, and have debhelper and similar packaging 
 tools install appropriate package.copyright files from that.

Debhelper already supports debian/package.copyright files.

Copyright file format 1.0 already supports expressing effective license 
(by use of the header section Copyright field).

The mechanism I had in mind was to generate debian/package.copyright 
files during build, based on debian/copyright and 
debian/package.copyright.in files or some such,

It would be good to have a _future_ copyright file format version more 
clearly document the use(s) of the header section Copyright field.  I 
find it best, however, to postpone discussing further deveopment of that 
file format until after the release of Wheezy.

Maybe it would be good to have improved standardized mechanisms to 
expand/compute/whatever copyright files for binary pakages, but I 
personally have little imagination what that might be, as I have only 
now had the epiphany of how those makes sense, and have zero experience 
in composing them as of yet.


 - Jonas

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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-15 Thread Thibaut Paumard
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Hash: SHA256

Le 14/01/2013 23:45, Francesco Poli a écrit :
 On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:13:48 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
 
 Quoting Charles Plessy (2013-01-14 02:55:38)
 On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Francesco Poli (wintermute)
 
 I think that the effective licensing status of the binary
 packages (GPL-2+ or GPL-3+) should be explicitly and
 clearly documented in the comment at the beginning of the
 debian/copyright file and, probably, in the binary package
 long descriptions, as well.
 [...] Since currently there is no better place (at least, not one I
 am aware of) to carry these considerations and since I am convinced
 that such considerations are important, I still think that the
 comment should be kept in the debian/copyright file and clarified.

Hi,

I'm surprised it has not yet been pointed out, but I have always
considered the right place to document copyright information for
individual binary packages is package.copyright, which ends up as
simply /u/s/d/package/copyright.

I'm also surprised to not find it right away in either policy or
devref. Anyway, man dh_installdocs at least doccuments the technical
point.

An additional README.Debian at least in the relevant -dev packages
does not harm.

Regards, thibaut.

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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-15 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Thibaut Paumard (2013-01-14 23:29:40)
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA256
 
 Le 14/01/2013 23:45, Francesco Poli a écrit :
  On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:13:48 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
  
  Quoting Charles Plessy (2013-01-14 02:55:38)
  On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Francesco Poli (wintermute)
  
  I think that the effective licensing status of the binary
  packages (GPL-2+ or GPL-3+) should be explicitly and
  clearly documented in the comment at the beginning of the
  debian/copyright file and, probably, in the binary package
  long descriptions, as well.
  [...] Since currently there is no better place (at least, not one I
  am aware of) to carry these considerations and since I am convinced
  that such considerations are important, I still think that the
  comment should be kept in the debian/copyright file and clarified.
 
 Hi,
 
 I'm surprised it has not yet been pointed out, but I have always
 considered the right place to document copyright information for
 individual binary packages is package.copyright, which ends up as
 simply /u/s/d/package/copyright.
 
 I'm also surprised to not find it right away in either policy or
 devref. Anyway, man dh_installdocs at least doccuments the technical
 point.
 
 An additional README.Debian at least in the relevant -dev packages
 does not harm.

I am aware of the techical feature of debhelper to install per-package 
copyright files.

In the past I saw that as an indication that indeed the copyright file 
was intended to cover both source and effective licensing.

During my partitipation in defining the copyright file format 1.0, 
however, it was brought up that there is no such requirement for 
effective licensing - the current defined purpose of the copyright file 
apparently is only to cover copyrights and licensing or _source_.


 - Jonas

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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-15 Thread Thibaut Paumard
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Le 15/01/2013 14:41, Jonas Smedegaard a écrit :
 Quoting Thibaut Paumard (2013-01-14 23:29:40)
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256
 
 Le 14/01/2013 23:45, Francesco Poli a écrit :
 On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:13:48 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
 
 Quoting Charles Plessy (2013-01-14 02:55:38)
 On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Francesco Poli
 (wintermute)
 
 I think that the effective licensing status of the
 binary packages (GPL-2+ or GPL-3+) should be explicitly
 and clearly documented in the comment at the beginning
 of the debian/copyright file and, probably, in the
 binary package long descriptions, as well.
 [...] Since currently there is no better place (at least, not
 one I am aware of) to carry these considerations and since I am
 convinced that such considerations are important, I still think
 that the comment should be kept in the debian/copyright file
 and clarified.
 
 Hi,
 
 I'm surprised it has not yet been pointed out, but I have always 
 considered the right place to document copyright information for 
 individual binary packages is package.copyright, which ends up
 as simply /u/s/d/package/copyright.
 
 I'm also surprised to not find it right away in either policy or 
 devref. Anyway, man dh_installdocs at least doccuments the
 technical point.
 
 An additional README.Debian at least in the relevant -dev
 packages does not harm.
 

Hi again,

All I'm saying is that the natural place to look for such information
is the binary package's copyright file, a.k.a.
debian/package.copyright, and that neither devref not Policy mention
the latter.

 In the past I saw that as an indication that indeed the copyright
 file was intended to cover both source and effective licensing.

Yes, that's also my reading of Policy 12.5:
http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-docs.html#s-copyrightfile

Every package must be accompanied by a verbatim copy of its copyright
information and distribution license in the file
/usr/share/doc/package/copyright.

In other words, copyright file (as distributed in the binary package)
must cover not only the copyright (which applies mostly on the source)
but also the distribution license (which applies on the binaries as
well). Note the *must* here in the binary package, in contrast with
*should* debian/copyright in the source package:

A copy of the file which will be installed in
/usr/share/doc/package/copyright should be in debian/copyright in the
source package.

which implicitly allows for debian/package.copyright in relevant
cases, i.e. when the applicable license terms is not the same for all
the binaries, e.g. some binary linked with GPLed code.

 During my partitipation in defining the copyright file format 1.0,
  however, it was brought up that there is no such requirement for 
 effective licensing - the current defined purpose of the copyright
 file apparently is only to cover copyrights and licensing or
 _source_.

I'd be interested in the reasoning behind this, because I think you
where right in the first place.

In the first quote above, its [...] distribution license refers to
the package. Very clearly, package here must be read as binary
package, which you grab from a few lines later:
/usr/share/doc/package may be a symbolic link to another directory in
/usr/share/doc only if the two packages both come from the same source
and the first package Depends on the second.

Kind regards, Thibaut.
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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-15 Thread Steve Langasek
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 02:41:07PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
 the current defined purpose of the copyright file apparently is only to
 cover copyrights and licensing or _source_.

That's not true.  The purpose of the copyright file has *always* been to
ensure that the license for a given binary package is correctly documented
in that package.  It's just that the safest way to ensure this is by
documenting the entire license for the source package in debian/copyright
and copying that file to each of the binary packages.  Unfortunately we took
a wrong turn somewhere and started considering debian/copyright itself the
requirement, and that's a *bug*.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-15 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Steve Langasek (2013-01-15 20:59:35)
 On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 02:41:07PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
  the current defined purpose of the copyright file apparently is only 
  to cover copyrights and licensing or _source_.
 
 That's not true.  The purpose of the copyright file has *always* been 
 to ensure that the license for a given binary package is correctly 
 documented in that package.  It's just that the safest way to ensure 
 this is by documenting the entire license for the source package in 
 debian/copyright and copying that file to each of the binary packages.  
 Unfortunately we took a wrong turn somewhere and started considering 
 debian/copyright itself the requirement, and that's a *bug*.

Ahh, I think I realize now where I went wrong: the copyright file is 
ambiguous!

Even if I recall and understand correctly that during the DEP5 process 
leading to copyright file format 1.0 it was pointed out that the 
debian/copyright is only about source, that is *not* the same as saying 
that the /usr/share/doc/package/copyright files are only about source.

Source and effective licensing just happen to be identical in simple 
cases.  And copyright file format 1.0 just happen to only verbosely 
cover source copyright (as I recall the addition of copyright field in 
header section was only late in the process).

Apologies to previous posters who might have seen this all along and 
tried to point it out to me. :-/


I'll setup a mechanism to have libav extend the copyright file for each 
binary packages, adding to header section a reasoned effective license.

...and will start do similar for all the other packages that I am 
involved in, as I examine copyrights and licensing for those and convert 
to machine-readable format.


 - Jonas

-- 
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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-15 Thread Reinhard Tartler
On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 1:20 AM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:


 I'll setup a mechanism to have libav extend the copyright file for each
 binary packages, adding to header section a reasoned effective license.

 ...and will start do similar for all the other packages that I am
 involved in, as I examine copyrights and licensing for those and convert
 to machine-readable format.

TBH, I think the best way to go from here is to extend the
specification to include extra fields that cover the effective license
of given binary packages, and have debhelper and similar packaging
tools install appropriate package.copyright files from that.

-- 
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Reinhard


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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-14 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Charles Plessy (2013-01-14 02:55:38)
 On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Francesco Poli (wintermute)
   
   I think that the effective licensing status of the binary packages 
   (GPL-2+ or GPL-3+) should be explicitly and clearly documented in 
   the comment at the beginning of the debian/copyright file and, 
   probably, in the binary package long descriptions, as well.
 
 Le Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 09:50:58AM +0100, Reinhard Tartler a écrit :
  
  I am not happy at all with cluttering the binary package description 
  with license blabla. I would do so only as last resort
 
 Dear Reinhard, Francesco and everybody,
 
 I think that the Debian copyright file of libav 6:9.1-1 is clear 
 enough with its comment in the header, and that it is best to keep the 
 license information out of the description of the package.

Newest progress(?) on this is commit e3731d with this commit message:

 Document all licensing of binary packages in README.Debian (not partly 
 as comment in copyright file), to avoid confusing source

That change has not yet released but sits in our VCS.  Could you please 
comment on that?

Sorry, I can't figure out how to reference it at our public anoncms URL, 
but it is commit e3731d at git.debian.org:/git/pkg-multimedia/libav .


 Note that the machine-readable format also allows License fields in 
 the header paragraph to give the license information for the package 
 as a whole.

I am aware of that.  But I am not convinced that *any* of the licensing 
formally covered by the copyright file format 1.0 are about the 
licensing of _binary_ packages.  It is my understanding that they all 
are about sources only, not effective reasoned licenses.


Regards,

 - Jonas

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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-14 Thread Francesco Poli
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:13:48 +0100 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

 Quoting Charles Plessy (2013-01-14 02:55:38)
  On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Francesco Poli (wintermute)

I think that the effective licensing status of the binary packages 
(GPL-2+ or GPL-3+) should be explicitly and clearly documented in 
the comment at the beginning of the debian/copyright file and, 
probably, in the binary package long descriptions, as well.
  
  Le Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 09:50:58AM +0100, Reinhard Tartler a écrit :
   
   I am not happy at all with cluttering the binary package description 
   with license blabla. I would do so only as last resort
  
  Dear Reinhard, Francesco and everybody,
  
  I think that the Debian copyright file of libav 6:9.1-1 is clear 
  enough with its comment in the header, and that it is best to keep the 
  license information out of the description of the package.
 
 Newest progress(?) on this is commit e3731d with this commit message:
 
  Document all licensing of binary packages in README.Debian (not partly 
  as comment in copyright file), to avoid confusing source
 
 That change has not yet released but sits in our VCS.  Could you please 
 comment on that?
 
 Sorry, I can't figure out how to reference it at our public anoncms URL, 
 but it is commit e3731d at git.debian.org:/git/pkg-multimedia/libav .

I think it is:
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-multimedia/libav.git;a=blob;f=debian/README.Debian;h=3d1180db2a75a61cd7cd29914c1dc48d8bdd0ba2;hb=e3731d1b854c04e119853d13d0d16293d9bc201e

And the commit diff is:
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-multimedia/libav.git;a=commitdiff;h=e3731d1b854c04e119853d13d0d16293d9bc201e

I am not too convinced this is a progress: it's true that it
consolidates all the considerations about the effective licenses of the
binary packages in one place. This is indeed good.
But I think it chooses an unfortunate place: not where I would look at,
when searching for licensing information...

I am afraid that those useful considerations would be read by very few
interested people, as long as they are buried deep in a README.Debian
file.

 
 
  Note that the machine-readable format also allows License fields in 
  the header paragraph to give the license information for the package 
  as a whole.
 
 I am aware of that.  But I am not convinced that *any* of the licensing 
 formally covered by the copyright file format 1.0 are about the 
 licensing of _binary_ packages.  It is my understanding that they all 
 are about sources only, not effective reasoned licenses.

This is generally true, as far as I know, in the sense that only the
licenses for the source files are _required_ to be documented in a
debian/copyright file.
But I think that some additional considerations about the effective
licenses of binary packages are not forbidden, if placed in a Comment
field.

Since currently there is no better place (at least, not one I am aware
of) to carry these considerations and since I am convinced that such
considerations are important, I still think that the comment should be
kept in the debian/copyright file and clarified.

Something along the lines of


| The effective license for all the binary packages is the GPL, not the
| LGPL, because GPL-licensed parts of ffmpeg were enabled and some binary
| packages link against GPL-licensed libraries.
| Additionally, some binary packages directly or indirectly link against
| libraries that are licensed under the Apache License v2.0: these binary
| packages are effectively distributed under the GPL v3 or later (rather
| than GPL v2 or later).
| 
| Binary packages under GPL-2+ :
| libav-doc (apart from one stylesheet under Apache-2.0),
| libav-source, libavcodec-dev, libavutil-dev, libavutil*, libavcodec*,
| libavresample*, libavresample-dev, libswscale*, libswscale-dev
| 
| Binary packages under GPL-3+ :
| libav-tools, libavcodec-extra-*, libavdevice*, libavdevice-dev,
| libavformat*, libavformat-dev, libavfilter*, libavfilter-dev
| 
| Transitional packages :
| ffmpeg-doc, libavdevice-extra-*, libavfilter-extra-*,
| libavformat-extra-*, libavutil-extra-*, libswscale-extra-*
| 
| The libav-dbg package includes debug symbols from all the other
| packages.


Please fix any inaccurate part, of course.

In http://bugs.debian.org/694657#120 you say:

[to determine effective licensing of binary packages]
 One needs to examine the combined licensing of all parts of the chain - 
 which is a huge job, I agree.  First step in imporving that job is to 
 make _source_ licensing machine readable *without* changing anything 
 else, and a later step is to hopefully make a tool that traverses all 
 build-dependencies to warn about potential incompatibilities.

This future scenario is really interesting and desirable, but, although
I am a perfectionist myself, I think we should acknowledge that we have
nothing of the kind right now.
Hence, while striving to achieve that great goal, we should implement
an admittedly 

Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-13 Thread Reinhard Tartler
tags 698019 help
stop

Copying debian-legal and netgen mostly for notifying them about this
issue. Also, see the call for help below.

On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Francesco Poli (wintermute)
invernom...@paranoici.org wrote:
 Source: libav
 Version: 6:9.1-1
 Severity: important

 Hello again,
 while trying to improve [1] a comment at the beginning of the
 debian/copyright file, it became apparent [2] that all the binary
 packages built from libav are effectively under GPL-2+ or even
 under GPL-3+ (as for libavcodec-extra-*, but also for the ones
 that link with it).

 [1] http://bugs.debian.org/694657#85
 [2] http://bugs.debian.org/694657#100

 As explained in my reply [3], I think that this situation is
 not clear at all, for people who just read the debian/copyright file
 and/or look at the binary package long descriptions!

 [3] http://bugs.debian.org/694657#105

 Without intimate knowledge of the libav package build process, one may
 wrongly think that those GPL-licensed files only end up into the binary
 packages named after the directories where they live...
 Without digging into all the dependencies, one may fail to notice all the
 cross linking among the binary packages built from libav...

The situation has been explicitly documented in README.Debian for
literally ages:
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-multimedia/libav.git;a=blob;f=debian/README.Debian

I agree that this might be easily overlooked, ad a better place to
make it more obvious, such as in debian/copyright, would be great.

 I think that the effective licensing status of the binary packages
 (GPL-2+ or GPL-3+) should be explicitly and clearly documented in the
 comment at the beginning of the debian/copyright file and, probably, in
 the binary package long descriptions, as well.

I am not happy at all with cluttering the binary package description
with license blabla. I would do so only as last resort

 I really hope you are going to clarify this situation.

We have recently (well, most if not all kudos and blame go to Jonas
for using his CDBS based generator) revised debian/copyright to
conform to DEP5. I'm not sure at all how to express this particular
situation in the new syntax and am therefore requesting help in form
of patches against the debian/copyright file as found in
debian/experimental.

Cheers,
Reinhard

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regards,
Reinhard


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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-13 Thread Charles Plessy
On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Francesco Poli (wintermute)
  
  I think that the effective licensing status of the binary packages
  (GPL-2+ or GPL-3+) should be explicitly and clearly documented in the
  comment at the beginning of the debian/copyright file and, probably, in
  the binary package long descriptions, as well.

Le Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 09:50:58AM +0100, Reinhard Tartler a écrit :
 
 I am not happy at all with cluttering the binary package description
 with license blabla. I would do so only as last resort

Dear Reinhard, Francesco and everybody,

I think that the Debian copyright file of libav 6:9.1-1 is clear enough with
its comment in the header, and that it is best to keep the license information
out of the description of the package.

Note that the machine-readable format also allows License fields in the header
paragraph to give the license information for the package as a whole.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Bug#698019: libav: the effective GPL-licensed status of the binary packages should be clearly documented

2013-01-12 Thread Francesco Poli (wintermute)
Source: libav
Version: 6:9.1-1
Severity: important

Hello again,
while trying to improve [1] a comment at the beginning of the
debian/copyright file, it became apparent [2] that all the binary
packages built from libav are effectively under GPL-2+ or even
under GPL-3+ (as for libavcodec-extra-*, but also for the ones
that link with it).

[1] http://bugs.debian.org/694657#85
[2] http://bugs.debian.org/694657#100

As explained in my reply [3], I think that this situation is
not clear at all, for people who just read the debian/copyright file
and/or look at the binary package long descriptions!

[3] http://bugs.debian.org/694657#105

Without intimate knowledge of the libav package build process, one may
wrongly think that those GPL-licensed files only end up into the binary
packages named after the directories where they live...
Without digging into all the dependencies, one may fail to notice all the
cross linking among the binary packages built from libav...

I think that the effective licensing status of the binary packages
(GPL-2+ or GPL-3+) should be explicitly and clearly documented in the
comment at the beginning of the debian/copyright file and, probably, in
the binary package long descriptions, as well.

I really hope you are going to clarify this situation.

Thanks for your time!
Bye.


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