Re: Package naming rant

2016-04-23 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
Thomas, please don't take this personally. We appreciate your work. That is
not in doubt. This more about making sure that we all take a step back when
writing package names, short and long descriptions and think for a moment
how to make this understandable for people that are new to the package, new
to Debian and new to Linux. Even if it is just enough to make it clear that
they do not need this package unless they already know that they do.
Sometimes a longer description with more context is better for such a
purpose.

Upstream might not get that or care about it, but this what we do - make
their work accessible to others.

On Sat, 23 Apr 2016, 01:43 Thomas Goirand, <z...@debian.org> wrote:

> On 04/21/2016 10:47 PM, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:
> > You can make a openstack-fuel-agent package and it will be clear that it
> > is useless to people that do not know what openstack is. By making a
> > package in a general namespace you are basically saying that this
> > package is useful to everyone, that people do not need to know or use
> > openstack for it to be useful to them.
>
> As I wrote in another reply, Fuel could be used in another context than
> just OpenStack. It's not the case now, but maybe it will happen one day.
>
> On a more general way, I'm really disappointed by this thread.
>
> In general, I take a great care of having consistent naming. I have
> mostly correct short and long descriptions which I care for, and for
> which I often discuss with some upstream who mostly don't care (so it's
> often hard to ask for a good description). Once or twice, I asked
> packaged to be renamed upstream. I also cared for the /usr/bin
> namespace. This is done over a *very* large amount of packages (which
> took me as far as being the DD with the biggest amount of Python module
> packaged in Debian).
>
> Instead of recognizing this efforts, or even checking if I do this kind
> of work or not, I'm getting rants over a very long thread about how
> silly the upstream name is, that the packages I maintain probably are
> polluting the /usr/bin namespace (without even checking for the fact),
> and all this type of crap.
>
> Guys, I don't appreciate this joke at all. Probably I should stop caring
> for all of this, just let upstream do all sorts of nasty things, package
> and upload that to Debian. Why should I care, if anyway, I get this type
> of thread in return?
>
> If you don't mind, please take someone else as a target. I'm leaving for
> the OpenStack summit in 24 hours, I'd like to have something better,
> more positive, things to think about in the plane.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Thomas Goirand (zigo)
>
>

Re: Package naming rant

2016-04-21 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, 21:58 Thomas Goirand,  wrote:

> Could we have this discussion in the OpenStack PKG list instead? It
> doesn't feel like this list is the appropriate one. I also don't believe
> that any of the people writing in this thread are OpenStack users, are
> you guys?
>
>
That is the point - namespace pollution affects everyone and is especially
annoying to people that do *not* use OpenStack or do not even know what
that is.

openstack-neutron-plugin-linuxbridge-agent is a perfectly normal name that
reasonably describes what is in it. Imagine every dash-separate part as a
namespace. If you do not need Python things, then you do not look into
python* packages.

You can make a openstack-fuel-agent package and it will be clear that it is
useless to people that do not know what openstack is. By making a package
in a general namespace you are basically saying that this package is useful
to everyone, that people do not need to know or use openstack for it to be
useful to them.

In the same vein packages that are only useful to people writing Python
software are in python-* (for example python-virtualenv is not a library),
but regular apps that happen to be written in Python are not.

Re: Package naming rant

2016-04-21 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 9:00 PM Hubert Chathi <uho...@debian.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:53:50 +0000, Aigars Mahinovs <aigar...@gmail.com>
> said:
>
> > I don't want to use OpenStack. I want to find a fuel logging
> > application to keep track of the expenses in my car. I search packages
> > for "fuel" and find Fuel. So I install it. ...
>
> First of all, I don't see a package that's simply named "fuel", but...
>

fuel-agent
fuel image based provisioning agent

Ok, so it lets me to take pictures of my fuel bills and then does
somethinng to provision me with more fuel? Sure!

OpenStack is not in the long description even.

Re: Package naming rant

2016-04-21 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 6:47 PM Thomas Goirand  wrote:

> On 04/21/2016 05:27 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > This argument seems to suppose that no-one unfamiliar with a package
> > ever reads its name.  This is an astonishing assumption.
>
> In the general case, I'd agree. But we're not talking about "a package"
> here, but about a complete *suite* of a complex cloud system.
>
> The argument is that you can't use OpenStack without at least learning
> what the components are, which makes it pointless (and in fact very
> annoying) to prefix them with openstack-. I'd say it take at least a
> month to understand all the interactions.
>

I don't want to use OpenStack. I want to find a fuel logging application to
keep track of the expenses in my car. I search packages for "fuel" and find
Fuel. So I install it. At this point there is very little to tell me if
those 50 packages it is now puling in are some libraries like boost or KDE
or it is actually a network of support services that will be turning my
laptop into an enterprise cluster service provider. The first would be
fine, the second is rather obviously not what I wanted.

That is why use of a package is pointless without some kind of wider
system, the name of that system must be at least in the short description
if not in the name, but also a description of OpenStack must be in the long
description so that I can figure out what that big system is and if I want
it or not without having to google stuff from the description.

Re: Package naming rant

2016-04-18 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 11:27 AM Thomas Goirand  wrote:

> Now, about the naming itself, let me give my opinion.
>
> I could have pre-fixed all packages with "openstack-" like they did in
> RDO/Red Hat, but this has proven to be really not convenient at all for
> OpenStack users, with for example, names like this one:
>
> neutron-openvswitch-agent
>
> Add OpenStack and it becomes:
>
> openstack-neutron-openvswitch-agent
>
> This IMO is a way too long.
>

There could be a simple rule of thumb - if the name of the package makes
sense and is correctly understood without it being in the openstack
context, then it can exist without the prefix.


> > Let's take this package:
> >
> >python-shotgun/testing,testing 0.1.0+2016.12.30.git.0682f20c42-1 all
> >  Create and save Fuel diagnostic snapshots
> >
> > I thought it was about shooting yourself in the foot, by connecting an
> > untested tool you just saw on Hacker News to the OBD-II port of your
> > car.
> >
> > Nope: it's some openstack thing with a description made of 11 lines of
> > enterprise nonsense and two lines of "it reads yaml, collects log files
> > and stuff, and helps diagnose stuff".
>
> One of the things shotgun does is actually destroying a node who failed
> to deployed, so that it reboots and can be re-provisioned, which
> explains the name. Over time, its main mission changed to what it is
> right now: a diagnostic utility who collects deployment logs. Shotgun is
> part of Fuel, and it makes no sense to describe Shotgun without
> explaining what Fuel is, as it is pretty much useless without Fuel.
>

Word "Fuel" and word "Shotgun" have meanings outside the OpenStack context.
Thus unless Fuel collects gas mileage data and shotgun destroys all kinds
of stuff, then prefixing the name with OpenStack is essential for
understanding. And not only in the package names. That description is
meaningless unless you already know that "Fuel" is OpenStack, so that also
should be replaced by "OpenStack Fuel project".

It does not matter that OpenStack Oslo makes sense in the OpenStack context
unless you put the reader into the OpenStack context first. Out of that
context that is a city name. And that is confusing. At least for me it is
for sure.

Re: Let's not drag this into another flame war please.

2006-06-28 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 

On 6/28/06, Enrico Zini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

...just to see what happens...


You can not tell us, voulunteers, what to do!

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:D


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Re: Debian parody

2005-07-01 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On 7/1/05, Brian Kim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In the interest of throwing a wrench in the works, perhaps someone
 should start a gnude.org parody site. =-P (hint: GNOME union KDE)

Better yet - GnuKe = GNuke :)

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Re: Braden's motto and Sarge

2005-04-14 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On 4/14/05, Rudy Godoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Funny to notice that now that he's DPL his motto becomes quite
 relevant since it includes a Sarge and probably the old version slogan
 could be also appropiate, at some point, and Sarge can see the light?

Could you shed the light on the content of that motto for us, google
impaired ones without _full_ subscription to debian-* .

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Re: Braden's motto and Sarge

2005-04-14 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On 4/14/05, Romain Francoise [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Aigars Mahinovs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Could you shed the light on the content of that motto for us, google
  impaired ones without _full_ subscription to debian-* .
 
 URL: http://people.debian.org/~branden/humor/the_real_official_motto.jpeg

True, that could help - but one must remember not to drink too much. :)

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Re: On upgrades

2004-10-03 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On Sun, 2004-10-03 at 13:37, Martin Schulze wrote:
 - Forwarded message from Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
 * Adam Heath:
 
  Other distributions aren't easy to upgrade.
 
 But you can practice upgrades more regularly.

Well, you can 'apt-get dist-upgrade' daily on unstable.

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Re: sarge is 4.0

2004-07-31 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 18:37, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 We should call it Debian 2005, just to keep them guessing.
   
 
 So we need to have an epoch if we decide to go back to our regular 
 version numbering?

or to say We are a full epoch in front of barfoo!
:)

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Re: Searching for an editor...

2003-10-25 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 17:43:06 -0400
Anthony DeRobertis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Sat, 2003-10-25 at 09:14, Arne Schwabe wrote:
   When do we start submitting our aperiodic guesses for a release
  date of sarge? 
  
   Thursday.
  
  Nah, all bad thing happend Monday
 
 Sarge is a bad thing?
 

It must be, if it comes on monday!

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Re: good vs evil

2003-08-20 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:22:50 +0100
Richard Smedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 ``Enter a URL, and the Gematriculator 
 (http://homokaasu.org/gematriculator/) will determine 
 the percentages of good and evil.  ''
 
 Well www.debian.org gets a result of 50% Good, 50% evil
 With a balance like that, no wonder it's such a stable
 system :-)


And how about this: http://www.sex.com is
39% evil, 61% good :)

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Re: gcc-3.2 transition breaks build of KDE packages

2003-01-17 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
Hello,

On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:56:25 -0500, Vikki Roemer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 Why do you say that?  I never found that to be true.  Usually we're
 shy-- get beaten up enough times, you'd be shy, too.  Besides, there
 are 3 types of 15-year-old guys-- the ones who hate nerds (all nerds,
 that is; girls aren't let off the hook); the ones who are scared off
 by girls who are slightly more intelligent  than average; and the guys
 who are also somewhat more intelligent than average, but are so shy
 that they can't put 2 words together when they're within 20 feet of a
 girl.  Or at least, that was my experience; anyone else care to
 comment?

Try those that are 18 - 20 years old, then you have a chance to get a
reasonable one. Or those of us that are proud of beeing a nerd.

Have you seen that Nerds strike back movie? (Not sure about the title)

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Re: esp experiment

2002-12-01 Thread Aigars Mahinovs 
Hello,

On 01 Dec 2002 14:12:41 +, Hereward Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 has anyone else seen this:
 
 http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp.html
 
 a very cool ESP experiment.
 
 can you work out how it does it? (I'm kinda chuffed with myself after
 only taking aminute or two to work it out)

and read the explanations, that is THE hammer :
Ph.D.'s and engineers trusting all that bullshit and the comments
are not too censed -- I saw at least two comments tipping at the correct
answer :).

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