Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Hi, On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 23:04 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the Debian project. D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad behaviour in other forums also hurts the project. I think that flame-war threads with 81 posts in them resulting in many contributors slagging many other contributors also hurts the project. In fact, I find it quite appalling. If we are truly concerned about the health of Debian, then why do we continuously flame other people's behaviour? These flame-wars are causing much more damage to Debian than any bad stories being published on websites will ever do. I am reading things recently like discussion about people making petitions to expel other people from the project entirely (e.g. Manoj), flame-wars like these, and other crap. This stuff is tearing Debian apart, and while people may feel that these concerns are valid -- they really are not worth the damage that raising them in this way is causing. Reading stuff like this concerns me about the future and viability of Debian. As most people who contribute to Debian, I do so with the goal of improving Debian's utility to myself (in the choices of packages I choose to maintain -- those are programs I tend to use), and to the rest of the community (hopefully they like to use them too). If stuff like this continues, there may not be any perceived point in improving Debian. (Why work on an OS that has an undefined future?) Debian is a project to create a free operating system, not a trolling collective. If you have issues with Josselin, then you should resolve those in a private environment. You, and everyone else, have the right to ignore other people, and what they are doing outside of their contributions to the project. People who do a great amount of work on Debian (manoj and joss and who knows who will be next) -- far more work than I do on Debian -- are being targeted by vigilantism. This is truly unacceptable. Maybe they deserve it, maybe they do not, but this is stuff that I at least find appalling. Everyone should stop playing this drama game, and get back to working on releasing Lenny. Every moment that is wasted on bullshit like this is time that could be spent on fixing an RC bug. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Quoting Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com: [snip] Here's the full body of the message I sent to Sam. He contacted me asking for my thoughts and I wrote the following: === On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:53:24AM +1100, Sam Varghese wrote: [snip] I am shortly running a story about the sexist post by Josselin Mouette and the fallout of the same. [snip] I assume you're talking about Josselin's post to debian-devel-announce on the 23rd of November [1]. Joss is, unfortunately, rather fond of posting his own brand of humour when he wants to make a point, and in this case his post was both ridiculously off-topic and juvenile. Quite a number of people took exception to the content of his message, as you've probably seen from the following discussions. I don't believe he was actually trying to be *directly* offensive in what he wrote, but his judgement is clearly not the best. After his abuse of the ability to post to the d-d-a mailing list, I asked our mailing list administrators to remove that privilege for in future. Steve's message was quite accurate and neutral. I think he did a good job job here as DPL. However, Sam Varghese has horrendously broken the basic rules of good journalism in his article. Starting with the title Debian developer loses privileges due to offensive post, he suggests that Josselin has been actually punished by Debian, which is not the case. Second, he says that Joss' post to d-d-a was offensive and sexist. Had he read the whole thread in debian-devel, he would have seen that many developers disagreed with this opinion and have pointed out that the post was satirical in the first place. As regards the choice of the forum, even Josselin agreed that posting in d-d-a was a bad idea and sent his apologies. Finally, Sam Varghese must had contacted Josselin and asked him his opinion. Getting the opinion of all parts involved is a basic rule of journalism, isn't it? I am profoundly disappointed with the lack of professionalism of people acting in an Internet news organisation, like ITWire. -- Rafael Laboissiere This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Hi, people. I'm not a DD here, so let that colour your opinions of what I will say however it will. I am, however, deeply interested in Debian and have done wee bits of coding for it in the past, and keep meaning to do so more for it. It is an unfortunate situation that often people when they're told, hey, would you please be polite? they respond with NO, BECAUSE THAT INFRINGES UPON MY HUMAN RIGHT TO BE AN ASSHOLE! Of course I'm caricaturising the response, but I believe that as far as caricatures go, it's relatively accurate. I also don't think it's necessary to elaborate on why the caricaturised response is unacceptable. Some people just don't get what politeness means. I would define it as behaviour that is acceptable in front of your grandma, but I suppose not even that is clear. I vote in favour of a code of conduct in order to codify for those who don't get it what politeness means. Copying Ubuntu's code of conduct would be most beneficial. The threat of losing DDs, especially members that supposedly we've worked hard to make feel welcome (hello, d-women!) would be most unfortunate. In order to rectify the damage that has been done by some members of our community, a code of conduct would prove the commitment that Debian has to fostering a good environment of collaboration and freedom. Should anyone feel oppressed by a code of conduct and their freedom to be an asshole be impinged, I remind that person that anti-asshole laws are in place to protect the freedom of *others*, not just your own. C'mon, people. Let's all get along here. And be excellent to each other. - Jordi G. H. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Friday 19 December 2008 19:56, Johannes Wiedersich johan...@physik.blm.tu-muenchen.de wrote: What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine. Do we have any French women on the list who think it's fine? Surely if we are talking about French culture in terms of women then we need some input from the 51% of French people who are female. Also while the claim has been made that French culture supports such things, the claim was not well defined. Is it the culture of French bars and locker rooms or the culture of French government offices and corporations? If it happens that women who work for the French government and French corporations accept such things then still wouldn't be an argument for accepting it in Debian. -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 08:31:15PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:11:25AM +0100, Thomas Weber wrote: No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that something has been lost in translation. When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're assholes for it. It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a culture. I find this strange, given that not too long ago you categorized the participants of debian-legal as wankers. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00174.html Joss' messages can be understood as pretty bad humor. Was your message above also meant as a joke? No. What part of that message would lead you to think I was joking? Nothing lead me to that, but then I'm not a native English speaker, so I may overlook subtleties. Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is unacceptable on Ubuntu lists? There's no ubuntu-legal list infested with leeches who think it's their business to tell Ubuntu how to interpret its own license requirements without ever having contributed a line of code to Ubuntu, so I don't think the analogy holds. Sorry, but I don't think the idea of 'politeness' differs so much over different mailing lists. Either you don't insult people or you do. And my point wasn't about debian-legal, obviously. But rather about people insulting people one day and then finger-pointing at other people insulting other people the next day. If you expect a certain behaviour, the best start is showing it yourself. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 07:07:35PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: On Friday 19 December 2008 19:56, Johannes Wiedersich johan...@physik.blm.tu-muenchen.de wrote: What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine. Do we have any French women on the list who think it's fine? Surely if we are talking about French culture in terms of women then we need some input from the 51% of French people who are female. Also while the claim has been made that French culture supports such things, the claim was not well defined. Is it the culture of French bars and locker rooms or the culture of French government offices and corporations? If it happens that women who work for the French government and French corporations accept such things then still wouldn't be an argument for accepting it in Debian. Could you just all leave the french alone and stop achieving nothing more than pissing us off ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 09:12:46AM +0100, Thomas Weber wrote: Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is unacceptable on Ubuntu lists? There's no ubuntu-legal list infested with leeches who think it's their business to tell Ubuntu how to interpret its own license requirements without ever having contributed a line of code to Ubuntu, so I don't think the analogy holds. Sorry, but I don't think the idea of 'politeness' differs so much over different mailing lists. Either you don't insult people or you do. And my point wasn't about debian-legal, obviously. But rather about people insulting people one day and then finger-pointing at other people insulting other people the next day. There are a couple of differences here that I think are material (or else I wouldn't be behaving in a way that you think is hypocritical). First, I haven't objected that Joss is insulting anyone. I object that he publically mocks many of his peers in the Debian project (sometimes singly, sometimes as a class), and he and his apologists insist that this is justified because it's fun or funny, and that people who are offended should all just lighten up instead of taking offense at this lowering of the level of discourse. These people have so little respect for their peers in Debian that they won't even bother with an attempt at civil discussion. They seem to think that putting the fun back in Debian means making crass, schoolyard jokes about other people in the project, not about having fun *working on Debian*. While I admit I suffer from the same self-righteousness by deciding who it's ok to insult on the lists, I'm certainly not doing this to amuse myself or others. I do it because I think hangers-on who contribute nothing to Debian but their opinions are a real and serious problem on a number of our lists, and debian-legal in particular where they account for a majority of replies over the past couple of years; and our mailing list policies, conditioned as they are by the knee-jerk censorship is bad crowd, don't offer any other way to deal with such problems *except* vigilantism. I don't /enjoy/ sending mails like that. I just believe that they're the lesser evil. I hope a system such as the one being proposed on -project might eventually provide us with a working feedback mechanism to check people's urges to contribute nothing but cheap talk, one that doesn't involve self-appointed enforcers. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Eduard Bloch e...@gmx.de (18/12/2008): * Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]: http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29t=7991 I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling. So how did Steve feed them, did he at all? You click on the above link, you then click on “Article Link”, and you get the article, which includes quotes: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22371/1090/ A related article, since we're talking about iTWire: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22320/1090/ Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Romain Beauxis wrote: Le Friday 19 December 2008 01:04:05 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit : Joss, it is disappointing that after all that time since your faux pas [1], you still seem to fail to understand that what might be acceptable within one culture (I don't speak or understand 'French') will not necessarily be acceptable for all the other thousands of recipients of your posts. I why couldn't you just accept other cultural expressions ? If people have a different understanding than yours, why should yours be the reference ? I do accept other cultural expressions. I do like other cultural expressions. But that does not mean that everyone is allowed to follow his/her cultural expression always and everywhere without respecting others. What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine. Debian is not a French-only project. Just my 2ct, Johannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklLYbUACgkQC1NzPRl9qEUlPQCggAapo8f/wYBDAkLD3ZkFEKHQ OmMAnAkH3uPMNtneFjQiEFUeQghAdZiY =gVaK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Am Donnerstag, den 18.12.2008, 22:51 -0800 schrieb Steve Langasek: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:04:05AM +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely different understanding of the English language used in all these matters than almost every one else in the world. I guess it is really time that Joss realizes that what might have been OK to be written in French is considered an insult when written in English to thousands of readers from different cultural backgrounds. No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that something has been lost in translation. When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're assholes for it. It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a culture. I find this strange, given that not too long ago you categorized the participants of debian-legal as wankers. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00174.html Joss' messages can be understood as pretty bad humor. Was your message above also meant as a joke? Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is unacceptable on Ubuntu lists? Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine. the French = FAIL; thanks. -- Loïc Minier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Friday 19 December 2008 09:56:21 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit : What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine. I you ever believed one of Joss' joke was bad, this is far worse to me. I start a discussion trying to explain how misunderstanding can happen and it ends up claiming that french are arogant. I don't think I have anymore to add if it comes to that point. Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Loïc Minier wrote: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: What slightly upsets me about the issue is not what happened, but rather that the French appear so arrogant as to think what happened on a world wide announcement is fine, just because the French think it is fine. the French = FAIL; thanks. I am sorry. I meant 'some French'. It was not my intention to give the impression that this applies to all the French. Please accept my apologies. Johannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklLcOEACgkQC1NzPRl9qEWyuQCeL4JDwY+jRNKoliWto3BfU7Kf eGcAn3oT/UH6G4MQNvIHLea7ILVJ1wWz =bFaX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Romain Beauxis wrote: I start a discussion trying to explain how misunderstanding can happen and it ends up claiming that french are arogant. I am sorry, if I misunderstood your point as defending Joss's announcement, while you were just trying to explain it [1]. Johannes [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00785.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklLdDEACgkQC1NzPRl9qEVgmACdHhpkda/oxMbcBYtmpkrVzWTH q8EAn24HWz4Kusd8vvci9G3b9H72kqvU =V5GP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 05:00:47AM +0100, Harald Braumann wrote: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:04:05 +0100 I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely different understanding of the English language used in all these matters than almost every one else in the world. Well, the same expression exists in German, the stick just goes in the other end. Do you see any fellatial connotation there? For the records, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the expression. No sexual connotation implied at all. World is not that different, -- Agustin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Homosexuality can be an *accusation* ‽ It still is in some countries. That's why mature people don't play with that openly in international projects. Perhaps you didn't know. cheers, martin -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 10:01 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit : On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Homosexuality can be an *accusation* ‽ It still is in some countries. That's why mature people don't play with that openly in international projects. Perhaps you didn't know. Still, shame on those countries. Btw, just as we are clearly off-topic of any Debian developper related discussion, there has just been some celebration of 60th anniversary of the universal human rights declaration at UN yesterday, with a specicically targeted event about sexual orientation, criminalisation of homosexuality, etc. For instance see our Secretaire d'Etat's declaration at : http://gayswithoutborders.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/france-rama-yade-will-appeal-at-the-united-nations-for-the-universal-decriminalisation-of-homosexuality/ OK, OK, maybe some kind of french arrogance here again ;) Best regards, -- Olivier BERGER olivier.ber...@it-sudparis.eu http://www-public.it-sudparis.eu/~berger_o/ - OpenPGP-Id: 1024D/6B829EEC Ingénieur Recherche - Dept INF Institut TELECOM, SudParis (http://www.it-sudparis.eu/), Evry (France) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 13:30 +0100, Olivier Berger a écrit : For instance see our Secretaire d'Etat's declaration at : http://gayswithoutborders.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/france-rama-yade-will-appeal-at-the-united-nations-for-the-universal-decriminalisation-of-homosexuality/ OK, OK, maybe some kind of french arrogance here again ;) Especially when the very day of the 60th anniversary, our beloved foreign minister said: “There is a permanent contradiction between human rights and a State’s foreign policy, even in France.” Our country is very far from exempt of human rights violations. Those trying to frame the current discussion in terms of cultures or countries are forgetting that every culture and country has its share of intolerant people. I don’t think all Aussies are homophobic bigots; it’s just that we have one in the project. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: I am sorry. I meant 'some French'. It was not my intention to give the impression that this applies to all the French. Please accept my apologies. We're almost all humans, thanks for retracting. :-) -- Loïc Minier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Our country is very far from exempt of human rights violations. Those trying to frame the current discussion in terms of cultures or countries are forgetting that every culture and country has its share of intolerant people. I don't think all Aussies are homophobic bigots; it's just that we have one in the project. Hmmm, Josselin, I share with you an open mind over many things (and yet, you'd be surprised at the prejudices you have, that only someone from another culture can point out). Even in the odd days when I feel all superior, I realise that it's not for everyone, and that different cultures have their own pace, and their own direction. And I respect them, if I am in a multicultural forum, I watch my mouth. The mission of Debian is not spot the bigot. Debian embraces people of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief -- about an OS. cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit : The mission of Debian is not spot the bigot. Debian embraces people of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief -- about an OS. Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit : The mission of Debian is not spot the bigot. Debian embraces people of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief -- about an OS. Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up. It's called “Don't feed the beast/trolls”. I'd rather have less such discussions on debian lists and more of the productive ones (and I know that you didn't start this discussion). Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Le best-seller français mis à jour pour Debian Etch : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Dear Norbert, On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere else. Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience. thanks, Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 06:13:57PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote: Dear Norbert, On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere else. Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience. Oh come on, this thread has been going on enough as it is. I'm tired of having to delete all the emails! We hardly need people trying to correct other people's usage of a language that doesn't properly provide for gender neutral constructions in the first place. -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Agustin Martin agmar...@debian.org writes: For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the expression. No sexual connotation implied at all. World is not that different, For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial phrase being a stick up your ass and regularly used without any sexual connotation whatsoever). I don't know if Russell's objections are unique to Australia or unique to Russell. The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination, and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fr, 19 Dez 2008, Michael Banck wrote: Dear Norbert, On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere else. Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience. Bummer, you are right, I forgot that, of course, if *anyone* here thinks she or he is ... (the worst invention in feminism is this stupid language thingy, anyone having studied a bit of languages, a whatever ...) Thanks for reminding me. Best wishes Norbert --- Dr. Norbert Preining prein...@logic.atVienna University of Technology Debian Developer prein...@debian.org Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- SCREMBY (n.) The dehydrated felt-tip pen attached by a string to the 'Don't Forget' board in the kitchen which has never worked in living memory but which no one can be bothered to throw away. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote: Agustin Martin agmar...@debian.org writes: For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the expression. No sexual connotation implied at all. World is not that different, For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial phrase being a stick up your ass and regularly used without any sexual connotation whatsoever). I don't know if Russell's objections are unique to Australia or unique to Russell. The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination, and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult. Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it acceptable behaviour? manoj -- An idealist is one who helps the other fellow to make a profit. Henry Ford Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: OT: Was: Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Raphael Hertzog wrote: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 11:39 -0200, Martin Langhoff a écrit : The mission of Debian is not spot the bigot. Debian embraces people of many beliefs, customs and ways of life under one shared belief -- about an OS. Precisely. And in such a project, you need to work together with people having opinions you can despise or strongly disagree with. But I fail to see why you’d need to shut up on those topics when they show up. It's called “Don't feed the beast/trolls”. I'd rather have less such discussions on debian lists and more of the productive ones (and I know that you didn't start this discussion). Then perhaps a good start would be to start deprecating messages that insult, shock, and try to humiliate other people, which even you can't possibly characterize as positicve and constructuve, no? manoj -- When in doubt, use brute force. Ken Thompson Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org writes: On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote: For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial phrase being a stick up your ass and regularly used without any sexual connotation whatsoever). I don't know if Russell's objections are unique to Australia or unique to Russell. The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination, and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult. Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it acceptable behaviour? Not as far as I'm concerned. But then I also thought the parody sent to d-d-a was inappropriately sexist and offensive, so I'm apparently some sort of censorious Nazi or hyper-sensitive PC freak or whatever the current in-vogue terminology for people who prefer basic politeness and respect over that form of humor is. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
#include hallo.h * Michael Banck [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 06:13:57PM]: Dear Norbert, On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere else. Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience. Please just heed his advice. Regards, Eduard. -- Windows zu benutzen ist wie Bungy-Jumping ohne Seil. -- Jörg Gerbracht -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
#include hallo.h * Cyril Brulebois [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 09:35:24AM]: Eduard Bloch e...@gmx.de (18/12/2008): * Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]: http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29t=7991 I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling. So how did Steve feed them, did he at all? You click on the above link, you then click on “Article Link”, and you get the article, which includes quotes: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22371/1090/ And? I cannot discover any quote from Steve there, can you? A related article, since we're talking about iTWire: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22320/1090/ Yes, and? Similar pile of crap: boring summary of what we have read on the mailing list, using quotes (cut in a bad way, IMHO) to demonstrate... what actually? Regards, Eduard. -- Nichts zeigt die Menschen falscher und schöner als d(ie) Leiden; im Glück werfen sie die Schleier weg. -- Jean Paul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On 12/19/08 17:18, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Fri, Dec 19 2008, Russ Allbery wrote: Agustin Martin agmar...@debian.org writes: For the record, a similar expression also exists in Spanish, either with a broomstick or with an umbrella. Both ends are used in the expression. No sexual connotation implied at all. World is not that different, For the record, the same is true in American English (the colloquial phrase being a stick up your ass and regularly used without any sexual connotation whatsoever). I don't know if Russell's objections are unique to Australia or unique to Russell. The phrase isn't considered *polite* by any stretch of the imagination, and can be taken as quite insulting, but it isn't a sexual insult. Does the fact that the insult was not sexual somehow make it acceptable behaviour? His phrase isn't considered *polite* should indicate what he thinks of JM's comment. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled? What different abilities do I have? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On 12/19/08 17:47, Eduard Bloch wrote: #include hallo.h * Michael Banck [Fri, Dec 19 2008, 06:13:57PM]: Dear Norbert, On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:18:21AM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere else. Please use gender-neutral language when addressing a diverse audience. Please just heed his advice. Or realize that English's third-person neutral is it, which is certainly a rude way to refer to a person, whereas he is only considered rude by people who, well... I'd better stop right there. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled? What different abilities do I have? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Eduard wrote: #include hallo.h * Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]: http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29t=7991 From the above news article: # Debian Project Leader Steve McIntyre told iTWire that after Mouette's abuse I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling. So how did Steve feed them, did he at all? Hi Eduard, Apologies for the delay in responding here. Crisis at work on top of -vote stuff... :-( Here's the full body of the message I sent to Sam. He contacted me asking for my thoughts and I wrote the following: === On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:53:24AM +1100, Sam Varghese wrote: Hi Steve Trusts this find you in good health and spirits. I am shortly running a story about the sexist post by Josselin Mouette and the fallout of the same. I would be grateful to know your reaction to the issue asap. Hi Sam, Things aren't too bad for me, thanks. Well, beyond the usual over-work and lack of time anyway... :-) How are things with you? I assume you're talking about Josselin's post to debian-devel-announce on the 23rd of November [1]. Joss is, unfortunately, rather fond of posting his own brand of humour when he wants to make a point, and in this case his post was both ridiculously off-topic and juvenile. Quite a number of people took exception to the content of his message, as you've probably seen from the following discussions. I don't believe he was actually trying to be *directly* offensive in what he wrote, but his judgement is clearly not the best. After his abuse of the ability to post to the d-d-a mailing list, I asked our mailing list administrators to remove that privilege for in future. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2008/11/msg5.html === -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com I suspect most samba developers are already technically insane... Of course, since many of them are Australians, you can't tell. -- Linus Torvalds -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 10:11:25AM +0100, Thomas Weber wrote: No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that something has been lost in translation. When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're assholes for it. It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a culture. I find this strange, given that not too long ago you categorized the participants of debian-legal as wankers. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/12/msg00174.html Joss' messages can be understood as pretty bad humor. Was your message above also meant as a joke? No. What part of that message would lead you to think I was joking? Or do you need to let of some steam here, because such behaviour is unacceptable on Ubuntu lists? There's no ubuntu-legal list infested with leeches who think it's their business to tell Ubuntu how to interpret its own license requirements without ever having contributed a line of code to Ubuntu, so I don't think the analogy holds. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29t=7991 From the above news article: # Debian Project Leader Steve McIntyre told iTWire that after Mouette's abuse # of the ability to post to the d-d-a mailing list, I asked our mailing list # administrators to remove that privilege for in future. http://np237.livejournal.com/21451.html http://np237.livejournal.com/20741.html Josselin's most offensive behaviour is in the form of blog posts syndicated by Planet Debian, above are links to the two most recent ones. He has stated that he intends to keep offending people. His aim seems to be the censorship of people who disagree with him by continually offending them until they stop disagreeing. As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do not belong on Planet Debian - which is for many people the public face of Debian. http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct I believe that we need a code of conduct for the Planet. The Ubuntu code of conduct seems like a good starting point. They have CC licenced their code of conduct and encourage others to copy it. http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29t=7963 The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the Debian project. D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad behaviour in other forums also hurts the project. -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:04:24PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do not belong on Planet Debian - which is for many people the public face of Debian. To be clear, this means that as the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, you want to censor him? -- _hug...@earth.li -+*+- fou, con et anglais _ (_) Even if it does matter, does it matter that it matters? - (_) (_)Marvin(_) \______/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 23:04 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit : The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the Debian project. D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad behaviour in other forums also hurts the project. What do you want to say, actually? Apart from the fact (that we all already know) that you can’t tolerate the very idea that people can have an approach to human relationships different from yours? -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:04:24PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do
not belong on Planet Debian
This sounds like an oxymoron to me.
FWIW, I'm way more annoyed by _frequent_ OT blog posts totally
unrelated to Debian on Planet Debian (even though I enjoy _sporadic_
OTs) than by Joss posts.
A planet is just a planet, i.e. an aggregation of blogs which by their
own nature can contain strong opinions and strong way of expressing
them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an
official message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have
d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been
appropriately blamed for), Planet is something else.
Live with that.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 13:04:24 Russell Coker, vous avez écrit : The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the Debian project. D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad behaviour in other forums also hurts the project. I have that feeling that you are using the project to express personal disagrement. Why don't you rephrase this using I instead of the project ? I had some strong discussions with Joss, but I would never support such proposition. By the way, this is yet another recursive trolling subject. I can probably start the discussion on COPYING files are not DFSG now :-) Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
* Russell Coker: The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the Debian project. I don't think it's fair to hold Josselin responsible for what that particular author writes, no matter what you think of his actions. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org wrote: Hi, them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an official message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list. Check the descriptions for both lists on lists.debian.org. JB. -- Julien BLACHE - Debian GNU/Linux Developer - jbla...@debian.org Public key available on http://www.jblache.org - KeyID: F5D6 5169 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 02:34:09PM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
them. Your implicit assumption that Planet Debian conveys an
official message to our community is totally unsound IMO. We have
d-d-a for our official message (yes, Joss abused that, and has been
Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in
debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list.
You are a bit picky, you know? :-)
Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I
skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect
in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org wrote: Hi, Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list. You are a bit picky, you know? :-) I don't think so; setting the record straight isn't being picky :) Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong. I'd argue about that official thing that people have been using to qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say anything official is project communication, that effectively goes to debian-announce. I essentially wanted to set the record straight as various things have been written about d-d-a and its purpose after Joss' post, here and elsewhere, mistaking d-d-a for d-a. JB. -- Julien BLACHE - Debian GNU/Linux Developer - jbla...@debian.org Public key available on http://www.jblache.org - KeyID: F5D6 5169 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On 12/18/08 06:26, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 23:04 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit : The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the Debian project. D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad behaviour in other forums also hurts the project. What do you want to say, actually? Apart from the fact (that we all already know) that you can’t tolerate the very idea that people can have an approach to human relationships different from yours? Manners, Josselin, and discretion. There are some places where it's just not appropriate to blurt out whatever you're thinking. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled? What different abilities do I have? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 03:15:38PM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote: Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org wrote: Hi, Official announcements to the outside world actually appear in debian-announce; debian-devel-announce is a developer list. You are a bit picky, you know? :-) I don't think so; setting the record straight isn't being picky :) Yes: I know the difference between d-d-a and debian-announce, I skimmed over it in my post because I don't think the difference affect in any way my argument. Feel free to prove me wrong. I'd argue about that official thing that people have been using to qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by developers. Wrong. While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/, d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news. The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 15:45:05 Michael Banck, vous avez écrit : I'd argue about that official thing that people have been using to qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by developers. Wrong. While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/, d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news. The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point. With this kind of sloppy argument, everything that anyone interested in Debian may read should be considered as official, including the planet. I somehow don't really believe you are being right :) Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 03:53:09PM +0100, Romain Beauxis wrote: Le Thursday 18 December 2008 15:45:05 Michael Banck, vous avez écrit : I'd argue about that official thing that people have been using to qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by developers. Wrong. While in /theory/ it might be for developers, in /practise/, d-d-a is consumed by the public as a prime source of important information regarding Debian besides debian-announce and debian-news. The fact that Debian Developers are supposed ot read it does not mean others do not, and there is not much we can do about this at this point. With this kind of sloppy argument, everything that anyone interested in Debian may read should be considered as official, including the planet. Like it or not, messages to d-d-a are frequently forwarded verbatim to LWN and other major IT-centered news sources. This happen much less frequently with other Debian sources, besides, of course, debian-news and debian-announce. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Julien BLACHE wrote: I'd argue about that official thing that people have been using to qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say anything official is project communication, that effectively goes to debian-announce. d-d-a has 5700 subscribers [1] and is archived/mirrored around the world. Non-developers by far outnumber developers in subscribing that list. It doesn't really matter, if it's an 'officially endorsed' message from the project or not, the point is it was an 'announcement' and it was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many. I essentially wanted to set the record straight as various things have been written about d-d-a and its purpose after Joss' post, here and elsewhere, mistaking d-d-a for d-a. No doubt, the harm would have been bigger, if it had been posted to d-a instead. But even then some would argue that it's not so bad, because it could have been even worse... Cheers, Johannes [1] http://lists.debian.org/stats/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklKbkIACgkQC1NzPRl9qEXnZACffbM4Pekz85rTbIR0XMNrsltt o8MAn0wcI7FMr4WH/wz2HjeQwJJcSSas =UbWY -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008, Russell Coker wrote: He has stated that he intends to keep offending people. His aim seems to be the censorship of people who disagree with him by continually offending them until they stop disagreeing. Come on, you're defacing reality and Josselin's statements... What he said is clear: he'll continue expressing himself freely (as in free speech, remember?) even though some people feel offended. That's a proof a courage, as long as he doesn't fall into illegality. Quite different, isn't it? -- Mohammed Adnène Trojette -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 04:45:07PM +0100, Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008, Russell Coker wrote: He has stated that he intends to keep offending people. His aim seems to be the censorship of people who disagree with him by continually offending them until they stop disagreeing. Come on, you're defacing reality and Josselin's statements... What he said is clear: he'll continue expressing himself freely (as in free speech, remember?) even though some people feel offended. That's a proof a courage, as long as he doesn't fall into illegality. Quite different, isn't it? Not only that, but I will continue shocking people could be taken as an intent or a prediction of people's reactions. Either he intends to shock people purposefully or he fully expects people to continue to be shocked. You really have put words into his mouth, and I don't think that's right. Also a bit funny that you intend to solve censorship (not that I agree) with more censorship. -- Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Michael Banck mba...@debian.org wrote: Like it or not, messages to d-d-a are frequently forwarded verbatim to LWN and other major IT-centered news sources. This happen much less Pretty much everything and anything ends up there, so that's hardly a criterion for relevance or whatever. JB. -- Julien BLACHE - Debian GNU/Linux Developer - jbla...@debian.org Public key available on http://www.jblache.org - KeyID: F5D6 5169 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 16:37:38 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit : Julien BLACHE wrote: I'd argue about that official thing that people have been using to qualify d-d-a. It's an announce list for developers, by developers. I'm not sure what's official in there. I'd tend to say anything official is project communication, that effectively goes to debian-announce. d-d-a has 5700 subscribers [1] and is archived/mirrored around the world. Non-developers by far outnumber developers in subscribing that list. It doesn't really matter, if it's an 'officially endorsed' message from the project or not, the point is it was an 'announcement' and it was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many. I fully disagree. If I say I eat kittens at breakfast(*) here or in planet.debian.org, how is it relevant to the project ? Even though it could be read by many and reproduced in a lot of places, the project never said it supports having kitten for breakfast, even though *some* developpers might actually say it. The question is not about what is said but about the scope of the communication. official has a meaning which is clear. It is the composition of an official position *and* an official communication channel. Any argument that blurs this distinction will only make the project less reliable and reduce the various opinions of people in the project, which means free speech. I *do* like when people express various points, including one that I do not agree with. And we don't want DDs to have all the same ideas, right ? Romain (*) The true answer to this question remains private :-P -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Romain Beauxis wrote: Le Thursday 18 December 2008 16:37:38 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit : The point is it was an 'announcement' and it was perceived as inappropriate (not only OT) by many. I fully disagree. If I say I eat kittens at breakfast(*) here or in planet.debian.org, how is it relevant to the project ? Just for clarification: I was talking about the announcement mail, not about anything on this list or on planet. Cheers, Johannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklKgqgACgkQC1NzPRl9qEUxUgCfU7ieVXiV6hnasnRj93gM6zif LEMAnjJ2X0F6v5lFKx3oiZedVQKofpMj =bHkR -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 17:49 +0100, Romain Beauxis a écrit : I eat kittens at breakfast How do you cook them? I like European cats a lot, but I heard the Siamese meat is more tender. Do you have some advice? -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Hi, kindergarten and western civilisation indeed would be a good idea. To those thinking about expelling Joss, I'm in favor of this now. Trolling on purpose (repeatetly) for the sake of it is nothing I want to see in Debian nor do I want to see it as accepted behaviour. regards, Holger P.S.: it's not about the content of the previous messages, I like dogs for dinner. Its about willfullingly trolling and not having learned a tiny bit of respect for other humans. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 18:21:48 Holger Levsen, vous avez écrit : To those thinking about expelling Joss, I'm in favor of this now. Trolling on purpose (repeatetly) for the sake of it is nothing I want to see in Debian nor do I want to see it as accepted behaviour. You can't be serious. Josseling is *not* trolling for nothing. Most of the people, exactly like the censors in real life never really question the reasons why they get shocked. When Josselin is, as you said, trolling, it mostly consists in a humoristic way of having people think about something. And, yes, humour *is* provocative. It is interesting to see how we all agree on having fun in debian, but never actually laught. Send a picture of two grils kissing and people complain, send a pastiche (to the wrong destination probably), and people complain for it being sexism. Then, what is fun to you ? And, moreover, how do you qualify the level of tolerance to other ideas *and* expressions ? Now, because I like when there a bit of irony (which qualifies as humour), let me propose you the following logical paradox: I hereby ask for my own removal on the ground of me trolling on purpose with this sentence. Cheers, Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Holger Levsen hol...@layer-acht.org (18/12/2008): To those thinking about expelling Joss, I'm in favor of this now. OOH, that's the season, maybe? Trolling on purpose (repeatetly) for the sake of it is nothing I want to see in Debian nor do I want to see it as accepted behaviour. Just for the record, Joss didn't start this thread and didn't exhume this subject. You could propose a patch against Constitution, Devref, Policy, List Policy, or whatever, to clarify what level of trolling is accepted behaviour. We don't have that yet, which is a shame. Nothing too dramatic, though. That can easily be fixed. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 18:08:00 Josselin Mouette, vous avez écrit : Le jeudi 18 décembre 2008 à 17:49 +0100, Romain Beauxis a écrit : I eat kittens at breakfast How do you cook them? I like European cats a lot, but I heard the Siamese meat is more tender. Do you have some advice? The secret for a good kitten meat is: the more they suffer, the more tender is the meat.. I guess that it is for similar reasons that we have a good project ! :-D Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Manners, Josselin, and discretion. There are some places where it's just not appropriate to blurt out whatever you're thinking. +10 from here. Of course, Josselin thinks and jokes differently from others, as it's natural to do. When in a large cross-cultural project, it's a good idea to be tactful. That's how people show they respect others. cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 19:12:29 Martin Langhoff, vous avez écrit : On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Manners, Josselin, and discretion. There are some places where it's just not appropriate to blurt out whatever you're thinking. +10 from here. Of course, Josselin thinks and jokes differently from others, as it's natural to do. When in a large cross-cultural project, it's a good idea to be tactful. That's how people show they respect others. Like telling in public to someone that he's your new X ? I agree with you, but I fail to see how Josselin is worse. Yes he does bad jokes and sometimes some remarks can probably be taken personaly, but I don't think he ever called for killing someone, even ironically (for what it means to be ironic about murder). There's a general track on being too rude, but I don't think you can blame a single guy for that. I won't spoil this thread anymore, but making things like this personal really makes me sad. Problems of a group are usually solved by the group as a whole, not by throwing out a designated culprit. We did before, and some of you might have noticed that this was not a solution to the issue. The initial proposition of this thread was this idea of code of conduct.. I don't like it either. If you believe someone is being too rude, why don't you simply tell it to him, in public or in private ? Using a code of conduct puts more bureaucracy whereas everyone knows that email communication (and similar) tend to create anger just because you don't get the implicit message, tone, irony and etc... There's no need for a code, only some more communication between us. And if the jokes don't make you laugh, just ignore them. Cheers, Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:28:21PM +0100, Romain Beauxis wrote: And if the jokes don't make you laugh, just ignore them. Which of course would be easier to do if the jokes were not told in the first place. There's a time and place for everything, it's a shame that a few seem to think that this list is one of them. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Friday 19 December 2008 06:28, Romain Beauxis to...@rastageeks.org wrote: The initial proposition of this thread was this idea of code of conduct.. I don't like it either. If you believe someone is being too rude, why don't you simply tell it to him, in public or in private ? http://np237.livejournal.com/20741.html That method was attempted, the response from Josselin was I will go on shocking these people, along with several references to sodomy with a broomstick and a link to a French web page which (according to Google translation) has some detail about a sex act concerning a broomstick. See the above URL for details. Obviously simply telling him doesn't work. The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian community. It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of conduct. Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for Ubuntu would fail for Debian? -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
(I answer since there is a question adressed..) Le Thursday 18 December 2008 22:01:17 Russell Coker, vous avez écrit : On Friday 19 December 2008 06:28, Romain Beauxis to...@rastageeks.org wrote: The initial proposition of this thread was this idea of code of conduct.. I don't like it either. If you believe someone is being too rude, why don't you simply tell it to him, in public or in private ? http://np237.livejournal.com/20741.html That method was attempted, the response from Josselin was I will go on shocking these people, along with several references to sodomy with a broomstick and a link to a French web page which (according to Google translation) has some detail about a sex act concerning a broomstick. See the above URL for details. Obviously simply telling him doesn't work. Well, the mention of this specific message was not in your initial mail. At least it gives ground to your claim. Honnestly, you don't share the irony pointed in the text. However, there was nothing personal in it. Furthermore, the perception of the tone and level of speech depends on the various culture. Being french too, I can assure you that pretending that someone has a broomstick in its ass is a very common expression for someone who it too much rigid. It is commonly used, and doesn't really shock, as far as I know. Probably it is the same with kill him or throwing away one's shoes (!) in other cultures.. The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian community. It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of conduct. Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for Ubuntu would fail for Debian? Because we don't have the same culture. We don't work the same way, we do not have the same population and etc... Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
#include hallo.h * Russell Coker [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 11:04:24PM]: http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29t=7991 From the above news article: # Debian Project Leader Steve McIntyre told iTWire that after Mouette's abuse I would like to know what exactly Steve told them. The major tone WRT OSS on that page seems to be pretty harsh, close to FUD and trolling. So how did Steve feed them, did he at all? Regards, Eduard. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Friday 19 December 2008 08:53, Romain Beauxis to...@rastageeks.org wrote: http://np237.livejournal.com/20741.html That method was attempted, the response from Josselin was I will go on shocking these people, along with several references to sodomy with a broomstick and a link to a French web page which (according to Google translation) has some detail about a sex act concerning a broomstick. See the above URL for details. Obviously simply telling him doesn't work. Well, the mention of this specific message was not in your initial mail. At least it gives ground to your claim. Honnestly, you don't share the irony pointed in the text. However, there was nothing personal in it. Furthermore, the perception of the tone and level of speech depends on the various culture. Linking to messages by me, Manoj, and Miriam (in the one of them links section) is a direct personal attack. Being french too, I can assure you that pretending that someone has a broomstick in its ass is a very common expression for someone who it too much rigid. It is commonly used, and doesn't really shock, as far as I know. Probably it is the same with kill him or throwing away one's shoes (!) in other cultures.. The expression broomstick in their arse is also common in Australian culture. It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation of homosexuality. However Josselin made it quite clear that he was not using the term as a collaquialism, but that he was directly referring to sodomy by his link to the French web page in question. http://np237.livejournal.com/21451.html The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to offend. The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian community. It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of conduct. Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for Ubuntu would fail for Debian? Because we don't have the same culture. We don't work the same way, we do not have the same population and etc... What cultural difference is there between Ubuntu and Debian apart from a tolerance for trolls? -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On 2008-12-18, Russell Coker russ...@coker.com.au wrote: culture. It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation of homosexuality. Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to offend. I think you are seeing ghosts or just being prejudistic against homosexuals. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:28:09PM +, Russell Coker wrote: On Friday 19 December 2008 08:53, Romain Beauxis to...@rastageeks.org wrote: Being french too, I can assure you that pretending that someone has a broomstick in its ass is a very common expression for someone who it too much rigid. It is commonly used, and doesn't really shock, as far as I know. Probably it is the same with kill him or throwing away one's shoes (!) in other cultures.. The expression broomstick in their arse is also common in Australian culture. It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation of homosexuality. However Josselin made it quite clear that he was not using the term as a collaquialism, but that he was directly referring to sodomy by his link to the French web page in question. http://np237.livejournal.com/21451.html The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to offend. I'm really speechless... I mean, even from you I'm still not sure it's not a practical joke. Avoir un balai dans le cul has to do with the rigidity of if. It alludes to people being obtuse and taking offense from completely silly things. A bit like you're doing actually. But of course, I'm only French, and for sure you know more than French people if Avoir un balai dans le cul is colloquial or not. -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··Omadco...@debian.org OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpBefUi7Hrds.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le vendredi 19 décembre 2008 à 09:28 +1100, Russell Coker a écrit : The expression broomstick in their arse is also common in Australian culture. It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation of homosexuality. Homosexuality can be an *accusation* ‽ The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to offend. So, if I follow you: leather - homosexuality homosexuality - offense And by saying both of these, you dare say that I am offensive ‽ You are really one of the most intolerant and homophobic bigots I have had a conversation with. You may convey it with a polite tone that would suit the Ubuntu code of conduct, but your rhetoric is full of hate and contempt. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Thursday 18 December 2008 23:46:25 Josselin Mouette, vous avez écrit : So, if I follow you: leather - homosexuality homosexuality - offense And by saying both of these, you dare say that I am offensive ‽ Well, you could also argue that in intend to offend means present things as if it was offensent, much like when calling someone a geek is meant as an insult... However, Russel's interpretation clearly doesn't match mine too. Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008, Russell Coker wrote: The expression broomstick in their arse is also common in Australian culture. It is even sometimes used without the intent to make an accusation of homosexuality. However Josselin made it quite clear that he was not using the term as a collaquialism, but that he was directly referring to sodomy by his link to the French web page in question. http://np237.livejournal.com/21451.html The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to offend. Oh then it's all right you know, because it's latex, not leather. Also, in the world I live in, anal sex and homosexuality are orthogonal concepts and people can have or not have any of each. I don't understand why you are now adding homosexuality to the discussion unless you wish to cause even more drama. Cheers, -- Sam. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Pierre Habouzit wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:28:09PM +, Russell Coker wrote: The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to offend. I'm really speechless... I mean, even from you I'm still not sure it's not a practical joke. I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely different understanding of the English language used in all these matters than almost every one else in the world. I guess it is really time that Joss realizes that what might have been OK to be written in French is considered an insult when written in English to thousands of readers from different cultural backgrounds. Joss, it is disappointing that after all that time since your faux pas [1], you still seem to fail to understand that what might be acceptable within one culture (I don't speak or understand 'French') will not necessarily be acceptable for all the other thousands of recipients of your posts. If there are some that have rigid attitudes, it seems to be the French -- for their failure to accept that the world contains people that beg to differ with the 'French opinion' or have a different kind of 'humor'. I can only with a little bit of confidence speak of the German interpretation of what has been said. More than one of Joss's statements appear as rather infantile. It's a pity that this grand old lady of an operating system and serious software is being dragged into the aura of these immature ramblings. JMHO, Johannes [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faux_pas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Do, 18 Dez 2008, Russell Coker wrote: The above article concerns the damage that Josselin's actions cause to the Debian project. D-d-a is not that different from other parts of Debian, bad behaviour in other forums also hurts the project. Oh bummer. Normally I never write something in these useless threads, I prefer packaging. But now it is really getting on my nerves. If you are so icky-picky and can't stand some bad jokes, than I am sorry for all of you, but please get a real life. The email of Josselin to d-d-a made me laugh quite a lot, and his posts mentioned here are all within the rules. So if *anyone* here thinks he is up to define ethical, political correct, anti-sexist and all the bullshit, please do so, but somewhere else. The last thing I want is Debian ending up in the horrible mess and morast of anglophonic-political-correctness-shit. I myself do recount many sexist jokes, and count myself as far from being a women-mistreater as anyone. Everyone of those overly masculine-but-we-dont-say-something here ever heard what women are talking about men. Come on, that is normality, no problem with that. If someone is hurt so easily, and if some female DD think about leaving the project for that email of Josselin I would say, puuh, fine, rid of that overly-sensitive ps someone stepped on my toe ps girlies. Best wishes Norbert For my German friends I add my personal expression of the equal-opportunity law on universities etc: Eierstockparagraph. Nobody actually believes that it *helps* women, and I can give good reasons that these stupidity concocted from Feminist-zealots are actually *hurting* the situation of women, but this is a different story. --- Dr. Norbert Preining prein...@logic.atVienna University of Technology Debian Developer prein...@debian.org Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- SLOGARIE (n.) Hillwalking dialect for the seven miles of concealed rough moorland which lie between what you though was the top of the hill and what actually is. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Friday 19 December 2008 10:01, Romain Beauxis to...@rastageeks.org wrote: Well, you could also argue that in intend to offend means present things as if it was offensent, much like when calling someone a geek is meant as an insult... Exactly. Also I had a brief off-list discussion with Joss about this in which I said of the post in question: # I actually wasn't offended. It merely confirmed my already low opinion of # you. It seems a great stretch to claim that I am homophobic when I have already stated that I was not offended by the post in question. It's the desire to offend others that I find offensive in this case. -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Le Friday 19 December 2008 01:04:05 Johannes Wiedersich, vous avez écrit : Joss, it is disappointing that after all that time since your faux pas [1], you still seem to fail to understand that what might be acceptable within one culture (I don't speak or understand 'French') will not necessarily be acceptable for all the other thousands of recipients of your posts. I why couldn't you just accept other cultural expressions ? If people have a different understanding than yours, why should yours be the reference ? Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Dec 18, Russell Coker russ...@coker.com.au wrote: He has stated that he intends to keep offending people. His aim seems to be the censorship of people who disagree with him by continually offending them until they stop disagreeing. I am quite sure that this is not a new meaning of censorship I was not yet aware... I hope that you are drunk, on drugs or both. Otherwise justifying such a stupid argument will be very embarassing. I believe that we need a code of conduct for the Planet. The Ubuntu code of Maybe we first need a code of conduct for mailing lists. I propose that we start with something simple like don't be an idiot. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Dec 18, Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org wrote: FWIW, I'm way more annoyed by _frequent_ OT blog posts totally unrelated to Debian on Planet Debian (even though I enjoy _sporadic_ OTs) than by Joss posts. Me too! I really do not feel the need to learn how much the personal life of other developers sucks or see photos of your cats (no matter how much I like cats). Hint: if I cared about the intimate details of your life, I would be your friend. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Dec 18, Russell Coker russ...@coker.com.au wrote: The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian community. It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of conduct. Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for Ubuntu would fail for Debian? They get paid? In my experience this helps a lot to be nicer to stupid people. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Dec 18, Holger Levsen hol...@layer-acht.org wrote: To those thinking about expelling Joss, I'm in favor of this now. Trolling on purpose (repeatetly) for the sake of it is nothing I want to see in Debian nor do I want to see it as accepted behaviour. Come on... We had a DPL who hosted the browser exploits and shock sites which were used to flood #wikipedia and #gentoo, a developer using some rethoric in a debate is not too bad by comparison. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Marco d'Itri wrote: On Dec 18, Russell Coker russ...@coker.com.au wrote: The Ubuntu community includes many former and current members of the Debian community. It seems that they don't have a problem with the code of conduct. Why do you think that a code of conduct which works well for Ubuntu would fail for Debian? They get paid? In my experience this helps a lot to be nicer to stupid people. No, MOTUs are held to the same CoC and are definetly NOT paid. Barry deFreese -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:04:05 +0100 Johannes Wiedersich jow...@googlemail.com wrote: Pierre Habouzit wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:28:09PM +, Russell Coker wrote: The creation of a fake picture of Manoj wearing leather makes it clear that Joss was intending to make an insinuation of homosexuality in order to offend. I'm really speechless... I mean, even from you I'm still not sure it's not a practical joke. I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely different understanding of the English language used in all these matters than almost every one else in the world. Well, the same expression exists in German, the stick just goes in the other end. Do you see any fellatial connotation there? Cheers, harry, who is quite puzzled by so much stiffness signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
Simon Huggins wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:04:24PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote: As the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, I believe that such posts do not belong on Planet Debian - which is for many people the public face of Debian. To be clear, this means that as the Debian culture is opposed to censorship, you want to censor him? Pardon me, but it is not censorship to deny a person the use of your resources for the spreading of vitriol. He is free to operate his blog as he sees fit, but there is no right to expect us to distribute it for him. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Josselin Mouette and Planet Debian
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 01:04:05AM +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote: I am really speechless The French seem to have a completely different understanding of the English language used in all these matters than almost every one else in the world. I guess it is really time that Joss realizes that what might have been OK to be written in French is considered an insult when written in English to thousands of readers from different cultural backgrounds. No, the problem is that certain of our French developers *think* that the rest of the world just doesn't understand their French humor and that something has been lost in translation. When the reality is that we understand it just fine, and think they're assholes for it. It's only a cultural difference if you're counting Kindergarten as a culture. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
