Re: For those who care about stable updates
[Sorry for the late response, I don't read -devel daily anymore.] martin f krafft wrote: As someone who has served (and continues to serve) on several core teams within Debian, would you be able to give us some insights into how the situation may be improved? In theory the team needs to reorganise itself. Current team members need to accept that the number of team members is not large enough to cope with all the work and accept competent people in their team. They need to do the selection and training. This is the theory IMHO. However, this can only work when a) the team itself acknowledges that there is a lack of manpower and b) is willing to work together with new people. You are tired of fighting the battles yourself. Even though you may have reasonable issues, very few people can step in to help because very few people know what's going on at the level of core infrastructural teams. Debian's core infrastructure is in the hands Everything can be learned if one is willing. As long as somebody can understand computer languages they can debug the processes and scripts long enough to know what's going on. Regards, Joey -- A mathematician is a machine for converting coffee into theorems. Paul Erdös Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Daniel Burrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 12:20:25PM +0100, Frank Küster [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, in case stockholm gets elected, Sorry, where's the Wiki page describing codenames for DPL candidates? Wait, you mean we aren't putting European cities forward for DPL-ship? ;-) If we would, shouldn't we vote for Munich? Or did they choose SuSE in the end? Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, in case stockholm gets elected, Sorry, where's the Wiki page describing codenames for DPL candidates? Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Re: For those who care about stable updates
su, 2006-03-12 kello 12:20 +0100, Frank Küster kirjoitti: Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, in case stockholm gets elected, Sorry, where's the Wiki page describing codenames for DPL candidates? db.debian.org lists them, though for clarity of discussion, it helps to not use IRC nicknames outside contexts where readers are expected to know them, or not only use nicknames at least. Planet GNOME, for example, lists both real names and nicknames, which is handy. -- i++; /* TODO: make this pre-increment - more efficient */ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
* Frank Küster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060312 12:24]: Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, in case stockholm gets elected, Sorry, where's the Wiki page describing codenames for DPL candidates? Sorry for using the IRC name. I try to avoid that in mail, but failed this time. stockholm = Andreas Schuldei. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Sun, Mar 12, 2006 at 12:20:25PM +0100, Frank Küster [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, in case stockholm gets elected, Sorry, where's the Wiki page describing codenames for DPL candidates? Wait, you mean we aren't putting European cities forward for DPL-ship? ;-) Daniel signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Sat, Mar 11, 2006 at 08:52:53AM +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote: On Saturday 11 March 2006 03:27, Kevin Mark wrote: [DPL as mediator] The DPL already could do that. The DPL probably in the past *did* step in in some cases behind the scenes. There's no reason for the technical overhead of a mediator@ email alias - there's leader, and people who trust the DPL to be able to mediate conflicts can reach him there. Mediation can only work if all parties accept the mediator as a person of respect/authority who is capabable of working out a fair solution and accept that a mediator will help. Otherwise, it'll be just an additional party in the debate - no win. After the meeting everyone would agree to not discuss anything in public and only redress further problems by arranging another private irc session. Hmm. I agree with you that solving these problems is behind the scenes work. But I think a solution worked out by a mediator ought to be published, because often enough the problem is also the subject of frequent discussions and flamewars, often also between people not actually involved in the problem (and thus the mediation.) Mediation is about finding a solution, not about blaming anybody, so publication of the mediation's result should be constructive instead of 'he was guilty'. Hi Adrian, I would agree as long as the statement is worded to both parties agreement. Would it also be useful to start a parallel document to 'Debian [technical] Policy' to address possible future situations or would it make sense to have one policy document and add a section? cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Saturday 11 March 2006 09:10, Kevin Mark wrote: -- vbi: Kevin: [mediation] After the meeting everyone would agree to not discuss anything in public and only redress further problems by arranging another private irc session. Hmm. I agree with you that solving these problems is behind the scenes work. But I think a solution worked out by a mediator ought to be published, [...] I would agree as long as the statement is worded to both parties agreement. Well, as far as I understand it, the outcome being some sort of agreement between the parties is quite the definition of mediation. If that can't be reached, the mediation has failed (and, in real-life, it is time to go to the judges or to change jobs or ... - the question is: what would we do in Debian's case?) cheers -- vbi -- featured link: http://www.pool.ntp.org pgpubLlaxQca2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 à 23:51 +0100, Wouter Verhelst a écrit : Yeah yeah, the project sucks. Whatever. Say, Josselin, why aren't you a DPL candidate? Given the list of known candidates, I considered being a candidate myself, just like Bill, but I don't have the time to assume such a position. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On 3/10/06, Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 10:38:51AM -0300, Gustavo Franco wrote: What's wrong with us ? I just read some messages with a no Martin, can we revert it?, it seems that the default reply is ok Martin, see you, thanks.. It's volunteer work, he's free to do whatever he wants and spend his time with more pleasant tasks, but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have instead going through the easy way that is ok, who's going to take that task?. It's clear that the new stable maintainer or group will have at least some of the current problems. Don't you care ? Which problems? The problem where they ignore the ftpmaster trying to coordinate certain archive changes with the point release to make future point releases easier, the problem where they ignore the critical bugs that have been filed on the security NMU of sudo that was done with a patch that the maintainer disagrees with, the problem where they repeatedly make a very public stink whenever they were unable to resolve a conflict with other ftp/DSA members...? Maybe the problem where the ftpmasters failed to communicate their reasons and even when they're right it seems that they're wrong?! Please Steve, i don't want to take your time and discuss with you, my opinion is clear and it would be better if a ftpmaster or ftp assistant spend some minutes replying Joey here. If it was already done, i think i missed the message. Well, no, those seem to all be problems specific to Joey and his approach to the situation. I don't see any reason at all why we should assume that a new SRM will fall victim to the same destructive cycle. I guess maybe if you buy the idea that this is an ftpmaster conspiracy, then you might think that any new SRM will have the exact same problems being able to get a point release out; but the truth is always more complicated than that. Joey does a lot of great work for Debian, but that doesn't make him a saint; and when a group of people are having problems working together as a team, sometimes the best answer really is for one of them to move on. Don't you see that the people that are moving on, are always from the same side of the discussion (the side that speaks) ? By the way if Joey isn't a saint (i'm almost sure he isn't), the ftpmasters aren't too. There's no conspiracy, it's just the way the things and decisions are handled that isn't always clear, i'm against a yet another formal procedure but when a Debian developer in a position listed in our organizational structure page resigns sending a announce criticising the work of a group listed there too, that group should came with a response. The we don't care approach can't be the default response IMHO. Isn't it strange that a ftp master or assistant never (or at least for quite some time) resigned upset by the critics or being blocked by someone else? -- stratus
Re: For those who care about stable updates
ObIntro: I add my thanks to all the others' On Thursday 09 March 2006 14:38, Gustavo Franco wrote: What's wrong with us ? I just read some messages with a no Martin, can we revert it?, it seems that the default reply is ok Martin, see you, thanks.. It's volunteer work, he's free to do whatever he wants and spend his time with more pleasant tasks, but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have instead going through the easy way that is ok, who's going to take that task?. It's clear that the new stable maintainer or group will have at least some of the current problems. Don't you care ? I feel the 'when are we going to solve the real problems' have been discussed so many times before (ftpmasters, DSA, RM, security team perhaps, NEW queue processing, probably at least the last 4 DPL elections, ...). Always, at least some of the people involved have not joined the discussion. As somebody who was involved in trying to solve such a problem without involving the affected people, I ask you to think again: what do you think would really change anything? A solution that will work needs to involve the affected people. A solution being worked out By The Masses(tm), involving heated flamewars etc. etc. will most certainly not work. It's sad, yes, but I think it's just the way people work. Debian is a city now, not a village anymore - lots of people know lots of other people not very well or not at all. This probably includes people in important functions, although the various face to face meetings have improved this in some areas. Right now we're trying to cope with city problems using village methods - has not worked in the Real World, won't work in an online community. cheers -- vbi (I don't have sociological, economical or historical background at all, so the above is pure pub-level opinion utterance. YMMV.) -- This bug is quite subtle and only happens in a very interesting situation where a real-time threaded process is in the middle of a coredump when someone whacks it with a SIGKILL. -- Bhavesh P. Davda, describing a Linux kernel bug pgp7krqWJcz40.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thursday 09 March 2006 18:41, Amaya wrote: ... focus on attacking Ubuntu Ah, yes, we need an enemy so we can unite against it. Old-fashioned tactics, proved to work. -- vbi /me is trying to imagine the Debian project's members trying to agree on an enemy... -- One picture is worth 128K words. pgpJBIKWBa8ay.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
pe, 2006-03-10 kello 21:49 +0100, Adrian von Bidder kirjoitti: /me is trying to imagine the Debian project's members trying to agree on an enemy... Open RC bugs. Go to http://bts.turmzimmer.net/details.php, pick one, hate it to death. Sleep well. -- C is the *wrong* language for your application. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, Lars Wirzenius wrote: pe, 2006-03-10 kello 21:49 +0100, Adrian von Bidder kirjoitti: /me is trying to imagine the Debian project's members trying to agree on an enemy... Open RC bugs. Go to http://bts.turmzimmer.net/details.php, pick one, hate it to death. Sleep well. Can use that as a quote? It's brilliant! -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
pe, 2006-03-10 kello 20:31 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh kirjoitti: On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, Lars Wirzenius wrote: pe, 2006-03-10 kello 21:49 +0100, Adrian von Bidder kirjoitti: /me is trying to imagine the Debian project's members trying to agree on an enemy... Open RC bugs. Go to http://bts.turmzimmer.net/details.php, pick one, hate it to death. Sleep well. Can use that as a quote? It's brilliant! Sure. -- The most difficult thing in programming is to be simple and straightforward. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Fri, Mar 10, 2006 at 09:43:22PM +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote: It's sad, yes, but I think it's just the way people work. Debian is a city now, not a village anymore - lots of people know lots of other people not very well or not at all. This probably includes people in important functions, although the various face to face meetings have improved this in some areas. Right now we're trying to cope with city problems using village methods - has not worked in the Real World, won't work in an online community. Hi Adrian, if there is technical committee for arbitrating technical difference, I'd suggest a duty added to the DPL position: social mediator. Someone would email [EMAIL PROTECTED] which would be a special address forwarded to the DPL([EMAIL PROTECTED]) that would be encrypted with a DPL public key as to provide privacy. One party would email the problem and the mediator would send an encrypted email to (a leader of a group or the particular person) asking for a conference on a private irc channel with no logging and such. Each party would represent their side and the DPL would try to workout something. After the meeting everyone would agree to not discuss anything in public and only redress furthur problems by arranging another private irc session. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Saturday 11 March 2006 03:27, Kevin Mark wrote: [DPL as mediator] The DPL already could do that. The DPL probably in the past *did* step in in some cases behind the scenese. There's no reason for the technical overhead of a mediator@ email alias - there's leader, and people who trust the DPL to be able to mediate conflicts can reach him there. Mediation can only work if all parties accept the mediator as a person of respect/authority who is capabable of working out a fair solution and accept that a mediator will help. Otherwise, it'll be just an additional party in the debate - no win. After the meeting everyone would agree to not discuss anything in public and only redress furthur problems by arranging another private irc session. Hmm. I agree with you that solving these problems is behind the scenes work. But I think a solution worked out by a mediator ought to be published, because often enough the problem is also the subject of frequent discussions and flamewars, often also between people not actually involved in the problem (and thus the mediation.) Mediation is about finding a solution, not about blaming anybody, so publication of the mediation's result should be constructive instead of 'he was guilty'. cheers -- vbi -- Tapferkeit ist die Fähigkeit, von der eigenen Furcht keine Notiz zu nehmen. -- George Patton pgp2ZA7P8SPSv.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Le Jeudi 9 Mars 2006 11:32, Martin Schulze a écrit : I'm sorry to announce this but you'll have to find a new person who works on updating Debian stable and who is willing to cope with black holes and ftpmasters. I'm sick of being left in the void. I'm sick of ftpmasters not answering mails from the stable release manager to negotiate a timeline. I'm sick of ftpmasters suddenly creating arbitrary preconditions for stable updates. I'm sick of having to ask again and again and being constantly blocked by them. Sad news. But thanks a lot for all the good work done. No thanks to everybody that uses his power to discourage good will -- I know the deal, it is not very unusual in free software world. It is always very frustrating to be denied access to some boxes while we need it to keep things going. Regards, -- Mathieu Roy +-+ | General Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org/ | | Computing Homepage: http://alberich.coleumes.org/ | | Not a native english speaker: | | http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english | +-+
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Hi, * Martin Schulze ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060309 11:37]: I'm sorry to announce this but you'll have to find a new person who works on updating Debian stable and who is willing to cope with black holes and ftpmasters. Martin, thank you very much for your great services you did as stable release manager during the last years. I'd like to inform you that Martin Zobel-Helas and I are going to take over the task of the stable release manager. We intend to add more people to that task, but well - that can be done anytime later. Martin agreed to that. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
also sprach Martin Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.03.09.1132 +0100]: I'm sick of being left in the void. I'm sick of ftpmasters not answering mails from the stable release manager to negotiate a timeline. I'm sick of ftpmasters suddenly creating arbitrary preconditions for stable updates. I'm sick of having to ask again and again and being constantly blocked by them. Joey, I wonder where things are going now that you retract from various positions... LinuxTag won't ever be the same, and I always thought your handling of stable release updates was great. I am sorry to learn you had to fight so many battles doing it. It is sad to see you leave the stable release manager position because you don't see a solution to the problem. In the past, situations such as the one you got frustrated over, have happened within Debian in various places. Sometimes it's the ftpmasters, at other times it's the security team or DSA, and there are others. I don't blame you for pulling out at all. However, I am trying to appeal to your dedication to the project with the following request: As someone who has served (and continues to serve) on several core teams within Debian, would you be able to give us some insights into how the situation may be improved? You are tired of fighting the battles yourself. Even though you may have reasonable issues, very few people can step in to help because very few people know what's going on at the level of core infrastructural teams. Debian's core infrastructure is in the hands of very few people, who are often very busy. This results in bottlenecks, which have negatively affected the project several times in the past. Could you share with us your view on where the problem is, and what solutions you see? -- Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer and author: http://debiansystem.info `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system Invalid/expired PGP (sub)keys? Use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver! we have a firm commitment to nato, we are a part of nato. we have a firm commitment to europe. we are a part of europe. - george w. bush signature.asc Description: Digital signature (GPG/PGP)
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thursday 09 March 2006 11:32, Martin Schulze wrote: I'm sorry to announce this but you'll have to find a new person who works on updating Debian stable and who is willing to cope with black holes and ftpmasters. James Troup as ftpmaster rejected my recent request to become an.. Then one suggest mentioned Mr. James Troup to take over, and do your job, which I personally find have been VERY WELL DONE - THANKS :-) Very sad to hear about such an announcement. I am just an old pensioner, end user, using debian stable happily. :-( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
martin f krafft wrote: LinuxTag won't ever be the same Seconded. Debian's core infrastructure is in the hands of very few people, who are often very busy. Right again. Joey is the first DD I met, and tho I saw (and heard) him on several occasions, I barely know him except from the excellent work he did. Also sad, wjl aka Wolfgang Lonien -- Key ID 0x728D9BD0 - public key available at wwwkeys.de.pgp.net Key Fingerprint = A923 2294 B7ED EB3E 2F18 AE56 AAB8 D36A 728D 9BD0 uid Wolfgang Lonien (wjl) like: [EMAIL PROTECTED] We prefer encrypted, text-only email messages here. Thank you. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On 09.03. 12:21, Andreas Barth wrote: * Martin Schulze ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060309 11:37]: I'm sorry to announce this but you'll have to find a new person who works on updating Debian stable and who is willing to cope with black holes and ftpmasters. Martin, thank you very much for your great services you did as stable release manager during the last years. Sad news. As a user of Debian who appreciates the work of Martin a lot, I would like to use the opportunity to thank him for his great work. I'd like to inform you that Martin Zobel-Helas and I are going to take over the task of the stable release manager. We intend to add more people to that task, but well - that can be done anytime later. Martin agreed to that. Good to see that there are already competent successors stepping up to continue the work, even though it is now obvious that it needs at least two persons to replace one Joey. :-) Thanks, -- Christian Fromme Mail: kaner at strace.org GPG: 9DE5E8B9 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Martin Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm sick of this entire situation. It makes me ill, angry and utterly frustrated. It causes me being frustrated of Debian and unable to work on other issues, needing a rest more often that planned. I should do better with my limited life. Hence, I give up. Congratulations. :( Is there something that we could to do try to revert it? I do think your work is very suitable for us and we all use it while using point releases and security repository. In that way, would be good to have you again on it. Mostly of use know that Debian has its problems but give up doesn't solve them. Would be better if we try to make a group and propose solutions. For those problems that ftpmasters still avoid to accept and most of us agree there's the Tecnical Comitee so we have an option. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://www.freedom.ind.br/otavio - Microsoft gives you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Martin Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm sorry to announce this but you'll have to find a new person who works on updating Debian stable and who is willing to cope with black holes and ftpmasters. A black day for Debian. Thanks for all the work and time you've invested into this in the past. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
What's wrong with us ? I just read some messages with a no Martin, can we revert it?, it seems that the default reply is ok Martin, see you, thanks.. It's volunteer work, he's free to do whatever he wants and spend his time with more pleasant tasks, but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have instead going through the easy way that is ok, who's going to take that task?. It's clear that the new stable maintainer or group will have at least some of the current problems. Don't you care ? It's just something more of the same as always, we're wasting motivated human resources waiting someone come in and take over the task. If you think that it's always easy to replace other person and his work and that really motivated human resource is infinite, i'm sorry but you're wrong. It's a wake up call and isn't the first, IMHO. Closing, thanks for your valuable contribution to this project Martin. Hopefully, i'll be around to see the day when we'll be cool with each other and do more to reach our goal. What about a universal operating system? Thanks, -- stratus
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Am Donnerstag, den 09.03.2006, 11:32 +0100 schrieb Martin Schulze: I'm sorry to announce this but you'll have to find a new person who works on updating Debian stable and who is willing to cope with black holes and ftpmasters. It's a sad day for the Debian project and the situation must have hit rock bottom, when Joey is telling such things. Anyway, thanks for the great work you did in the past and all the time you spent into this. Regards, Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On 09.03. 10:38, Gustavo Franco wrote: What's wrong with us ? I just read some messages with a no Martin, can we revert it?, it seems that the default reply is ok Martin, see you, thanks.. It's volunteer work, he's free to do whatever he wants and spend his time with more pleasant tasks, but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have instead going through the easy way that is ok, who's going to take that task?. It's clear that the new stable maintainer or group will have at least some of the current problems. Don't you care ? As one of the persons who answered Thanks, see you, I would like to express my concern about this as well. You are totally right when you say something has to be done against these problems and especially against persons and/or cirumstances that block effektive work from being done. I am no DD and my knowledge about the internals of Debian is limited, but I wonder if there is no way of forcing a change of the blocks Martin encountered. Cheers, -- Christian Fromme Mail: kaner at strace.org GPG: 9DE5E8B9 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, 9 Mar 2006, Gustavo Franco wrote: What's wrong with us ? It is wrong that somebody who would like to work is stopped to do his work by others. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Gustavo Franco wrote: it seems that the default reply is ok Martin, see you, thanks.. Yes, we are very thankful for his time, dedication, and achievemnets. It's volunteer work, he's free to do whatever he wants and spend his time with more pleasant tasks, Exactly. but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have Hey! It's DPL election time! Lobby around. I really am biting my tongue, but you don't have to. Don't you care ? We do. But asking him to go back to doing something that was such a source of pain? No way. Closing, thanks for your valuable contribution to this project Martin. Ditto. -- .''`. I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think : :' : I have ended up where I needed to be -- Douglas Adams `. `' Proudly running unstable Debian GNU/Linux `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, 9 Mar 2006, Amaya wrote: Hey! It's DPL election time! Lobby around. I really am biting my tongue, but you don't have to. Ups, why are you biting your tongue? I say it loudly: I will vote highest for the candidate who seems to me most probable to solve this very problem. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Andreas Tille wrote: Ups, why are you biting your tongue? Because we all have our bit of fustration regarding this issue and I don't want to pour anger in email. For fear that I get expulsed :P No, seriously... This is being discussed in the debian-project mailing list right now, where it belongs, and Marga started a (sub)thread in the very tone we should use (that means a *calm* tone, in case someone is not following along). I say it loudly: I will vote highest for the candidate who seems to me most probable to solve this very problem. I still have to deal with my concers about the code of conduct, so I will bite my tongue some more and wait until the tone is right to raise them. -- .''`. I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think : :' : I have ended up where I needed to be -- Douglas Adams `. `' Proudly running unstable Debian GNU/Linux `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On 3/9/06, Amaya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo Franco wrote: (...) Don't you care ? We do. But asking him to go back to doing something that was such a source of pain? No way. (...) Hi Amaya, I agree with you, i wasn't simple asking him to go back. My point was that if we just let somebody or a team take over that task the problem will still be there, maybe not all the problems but some of them. It's harder, but we need to solve problems and stop changing people by teams thinking it's a drop-in solution for everything. I'm in some teams, i prefer to work this way and the 'stable updates' probably will be in good hands in the near future but why not with Martin too? Someone blocked him and that's my problem. Closing, it isn't a cheap rant against ftpmasters, i would like to thank the ftp assistants Joerg Jaspert and Jeroen van Wolffelaar for their work too. -- stratus
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Gustavo Franco wrote: I agree with you, i wasn't simple asking him to go back. My point was that if we just let somebody or a team take over that task the problem will still be there, maybe not all the problems but some of them. I am also worried that these issues continue to exist throughout releases/DPLs/seasons... I honestly think it is all a lack of transparency and communication. -- .''`. I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think : :' : I have ended up where I needed to be -- Douglas Adams `. `' Proudly running unstable Debian GNU/Linux `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On 3/9/06, Amaya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo Franco wrote: I agree with you, i wasn't simple asking him to go back. My point was that if we just let somebody or a team take over that task the problem will still be there, maybe not all the problems but some of them. I am also worried that these issues continue to exist throughout releases/DPLs/seasons... I honestly think it is all a lack of transparency and communication. Sure Amaya, what we've got here is failure to communicate Btw, i hope we don't end in a civil war. :-) -- stratus
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Gustavo Franco wrote: Sure Amaya, what we've got here is failure to communicate Btw, i hope we don't end in a civil war. :-) joke Civil? Not as long as we focus on attacking Ubuntu /joke -- .''`. I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think : :' : I have ended up where I needed to be -- Douglas Adams `. `' Proudly running unstable Debian GNU/Linux `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates (update)
That is fine and dandy, but how do you want to adress the underlying problem of the work ? Joey did not quit because he woke up this morning and didn't feel like doing the work. On 3/9/06, Martin Zobel-Helas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi! As you all probably already know, Martin 'Joey' Schulze stepped down as Stable Release Manager[1]. At this point, we would like to thank him for his hard work for the last five years. To continue the service of stable point releases to our users, Andreas Barth and I took over the Stable Release Management. We will try to add other people to our team, improving responsiveness and quality. Based on Joey's excellent preparation work of the last few months and our experience with debian-volatile updates to the stable release, we are aiming to release the second update to Debian 3.1 sarge (3.1r2) as soon as possible. Current plan is to do it within the next 4 weeks. Greetings Martin PS: Andi's post[2] was supposed to go to debian-devel-announce@ but ended up in [EMAIL PROTECTED] [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/03/msg8.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/03/msg00294.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEEGVQST77jl1k+HARAi2xAKCAXWTJnLXehRzfPhhKpvk5+TAUswCgjAHA L1uXtkjuYougf7bE9EZYfbQ= =F0rP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates (update)
Martin Zobel-Helas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To continue the service of stable point releases to our users, Andreas Barth and I took over the Stable Release Management. We will try to add other people to our team, improving responsiveness and quality. What will the process to someone who want to join the team to help with it? -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://www.freedom.ind.br/otavio - Microsoft gives you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 à 16:39 +0100, Amaya a écrit : but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have Hey! It's DPL election time! Lobby around. I really am biting my tongue, but you don't have to. Who are you going to lobby? The candidates who are playing an active role in the problem, or the ones who are just claiming there is no problem and that we should all be friends? -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On 3/9/06, Amaya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo Franco wrote: Sure Amaya, what we've got here is failure to communicate Btw, i hope we don't end in a civil war. :-) joke Civil? Not as long as we focus on attacking Ubuntu /joke hehe, i think you missed my joke first. -- stratus
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Gustavo Franco wrote: hehe, i think you missed my joke first. Maybe, I just saw a GnR quote. -- .''`. I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think : :' : I have ended up where I needed to be -- Douglas Adams `. `' Proudly running unstable Debian GNU/Linux `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Josselin Mouette wrote: Who are you going to lobby? The candidates who are playing an active role in the problem, or the ones who are just claiming there is no problem and that we should all be friends? This year the candidates are acting more like RL politicians than ever (IMVHO). So you... 1 - lobby (all of them) 2 - get promises in exchange of votes 3 - ... 4 - profit! Nah, just lack of iron talking. -- .''`. I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think : :' : I have ended up where I needed to be -- Douglas Adams `. `' Proudly running unstable Debian GNU/Linux `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 19:05 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Who are you going to lobby? The candidates who are playing an active role in the problem, or the ones who are just claiming there is no problem and that we should all be friends? If I were a crazier man I would say something like: The end is neigh! It is a dark, dark day for Debian, indeed. -- Jason Clinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 07:05:24PM +0100, Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 ? 16:39 +0100, Amaya a ?crit : but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have Hey! It's DPL election time! Lobby around. I really am biting my tongue, but you don't have to. Who are you going to lobby? The candidates who are playing an active role in the problem, or the ones who are just claiming there is no problem and that we should all be friends? Maybe the one with the Plan 9 ? /o\ Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates (update)
Florian Haas wrote: Joey did not quit because he woke up this morning and didn't feel like doing the work. Yes, that is an issue that really has to be discussed in a civil manner and in more depth. The issue I am refering to is, again, the fragile equilibrium between meritocracy and elected delegates. People that hold key positions in the project. And I am very sorry to bring this up in such a painful moment, but I am afraid Joey himself has sometimes behaved in the same way that he so bitterly complains James Troup behaved. With plenty of differences, sure. And in no way I am trying to dissmiss the huge amount of work and time I am sure both have put into their respective tasks. But as far as I see (again biased by my own perception, lack of information and the alignment of Venus/Jupiter) both have issues with delegating, or acknowledging being overworked. I do have these same issues myself, I guees, we all do. No big deal, because my role is, fortunately for the project, not key to the project. I wonder if it is a control issue after all, on top of this lack of transparency and feedback. Just my thoughts, not judging anyone. -- .''`. I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think : :' : I have ended up where I needed to be -- Douglas Adams `. `' Proudly running unstable Debian GNU/Linux `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On 3/9/06, Amaya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo Franco wrote: hehe, i think you missed my joke first. Maybe, I just saw a GnR quote. That's what i mean with the civil war thing, not a real war against anyone or a project. :-) -- stratus
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 07:05:24PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 à 16:39 +0100, Amaya a écrit : but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have Hey! It's DPL election time! Lobby around. I really am biting my tongue, but you don't have to. Who are you going to lobby? The candidates who are playing an active role in the problem, or the ones who are just claiming there is no problem and that we should all be friends? Joss, Please point me to a candidate who is claiming that 'there is no problem and that we should all be friends'. I think you'll find what they're saying is, 'don't be an idiot on mailing lists'. And here you are, being an idiot on a mailing list, which is pretty fitting, I guess. (But it is a problem.) Cheers, Daniel signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 20:49 +0200, Daniel Stone wrote: I think you'll find what they're saying is, 'don't be an idiot on mailing lists'. And here you are, being an idiot on a mailing list, which is pretty fitting, I guess. (But it is a problem.) -1 name calling -1 hyperbole +1 semi-on-topic -- -1 shouldn't have sent -- Jason Clinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: For those who care about stable updates
to, 2006-03-09 kello 19:21 +0100, Amaya kirjoitti: 1 - lobby (all of them) 2 - get promises in exchange of votes That reminds me of something I meant to propose some time ago: someone with a bit of time on their hands could make a wiki page, DplPromises2006 say, and list all the promises of all the candidates. Then, during the next year, we can keep coming back to that page and check how well they keep their promises. -- Cameras don't shoot people. People shoot people. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 à 20:49 +0200, Daniel Stone a écrit : I think you'll find what they're saying is, 'don't be an idiot on mailing lists'. And here you are, being an idiot on a mailing list, which is pretty fitting, I guess. (But it is a problem.) If pointing at problems is idiot, I prefer to be an idiot. I will not be the one to shut up when we are losing again to a group of individuals who are deliberately hurting the project by keeping their power positions safe. If you want to start an expulsion procedure against idiots, go ahead. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On 3/9/06, Lars Wirzenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to, 2006-03-09 kello 19:21 +0100, Amaya kirjoitti: 1 - lobby (all of them) 2 - get promises in exchange of votes That reminds me of something I meant to propose some time ago: someone with a bit of time on their hands could make a wiki page, DplPromises2006 say, and list all the promises of all the candidates. Then, during the next year, we can keep coming back to that page and check how well they keep their promises. joke Liw, go ahead and do that but not in the Debian wiki. They're going to remove^W edit the content. /joke -- stratus
Re: For those who care about stable updates
I demand that Andreas Tille may or may not have written... On Thu, 9 Mar 2006, Gustavo Franco wrote: What's wrong with us ? It is wrong that somebody who would like to work is stopped to do his work by others. You mean stopped from doing. (Common non-native mistake...) -- | Darren Salt| linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon | RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army | + At least 4000 million too many people. POPULATION LEVEL IS UNSUSTAINABLE. Lettuce prey fur whirled peas. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
I demand that Jason Clinton may or may not have written... On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 19:05 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Who are you going to lobby? The candidates who are playing an active role in the problem, or the ones who are just claiming there is no problem and that we should all be friends? If I were a crazier man I would say something like: The end is neigh! Careful. You might shout yourself horse. ;-) -- | Darren Salt| linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon | RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army | + At least 4000 million too many people. POPULATION LEVEL IS UNSUSTAINABLE. I imagine that the conditions outside today are totally unimaginable. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:06:33PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 à 20:49 +0200, Daniel Stone a écrit : I think you'll find what they're saying is, 'don't be an idiot on mailing lists'. And here you are, being an idiot on a mailing list, which is pretty fitting, I guess. (But it is a problem.) If pointing at problems is idiot, I prefer to be an idiot. I will not be the one to shut up when we are losing again to a group of individuals who are deliberately hurting the project by keeping their power positions safe. I don't see how your message follows from mine (and I notice you cleverly failed to answer the main question posed there), so I'm going to let it go. If you want to start an expulsion procedure against idiots, go ahead. If only ... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 à 22:44 +0200, Daniel Stone a écrit : On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 08:06:33PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 à 20:49 +0200, Daniel Stone a écrit : I think you'll find what they're saying is, 'don't be an idiot on mailing lists'. And here you are, being an idiot on a mailing list, which is pretty fitting, I guess. (But it is a problem.) If pointing at problems is idiot, I prefer to be an idiot. I will not be the one to shut up when we are losing again to a group of individuals who are deliberately hurting the project by keeping their power positions safe. I don't see how your message follows from mine (and I notice you cleverly failed to answer the main question posed there), so I'm going to let it go. I haven't answered the question because it wasn't one. You are implicitly answering it the line after, and I already know we disagree on this matter. I was reacting to your calling me an idiot. That must be your own way of following the code of conduct [1] you are campaigning for [2]. [1] http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct [2] http://www.fooishbar.org/blog/2006/Mar/05 -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 07:21:20PM +0100, Amaya wrote: Josselin Mouette wrote: Who are you going to lobby? The candidates who are playing an active role in the problem, or the ones who are just claiming there is no problem and that we should all be friends? This year the candidates are acting more like RL politicians than ever (IMVHO). So you... 1 - lobby (all of them) 2 - get promises in exchange of votes 3 - ... 4 - profit! Nah, just lack of iron talking. You should take irony supplements to replenish the irony lost to mailing lists. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
* Daniel Stone ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060309 19:53]: Please point me to a candidate who is claiming that 'there is no problem and that we should all be friends'. krooger. Sorry, couldn't resist. :) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
* Lars Wirzenius ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060309 19:56]: That reminds me of something I meant to propose some time ago: someone with a bit of time on their hands could make a wiki page, DplPromises2006 say, and list all the promises of all the candidates. Then, during the next year, we can keep coming back to that page and check how well they keep their promises. Actually, in case stockholm gets elected, I plan to list all of his promises in his status mails, and give an overview what worked and what not. (That is basically what milestones means in his platform.) I think that's a good thing to do. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates (update)
Martin Zobel-Helas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi! As you all probably already know, Martin 'Joey' Schulze stepped down as Stable Release Manager[1]. At this point, we would like to thank him for his hard work for the last five years. To continue the service of stable point releases to our users, Andreas Barth and I took over the Stable Release Management. We will try to add other people to our team, improving responsiveness and quality. Based on Joey's excellent preparation work of the last few months and our experience with debian-volatile updates to the stable release, we are aiming to release the second update to Debian 3.1 sarge (3.1r2) as soon as possible. Current plan is to do it within the next 4 weeks. Greetings Martin PS: Andi's post[2] was supposed to go to debian-devel-announce@ but ended up in [EMAIL PROTECTED] [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/03/msg8.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/03/msg00294.html Do you plan to push the inofficial Debian-amd64 release along with Debians this time? We are still at 3.1r0 because so far nobody has pushed the issue hard enough. But we (the debian-amd64 project) are happy to help compile things if anything isn't automaticaly picked up by the buildds or answere questions and such if you are willing to broaden you job slightly. Andreas already has (hopefully sufficient) access to amd64.debian.net so that shouldn't be a stoper. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 07:05:24PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le jeudi 09 mars 2006 à 16:39 +0100, Amaya a écrit : but when will we try to solve some of the real problems we have Hey! It's DPL election time! Lobby around. I really am biting my tongue, but you don't have to. Who are you going to lobby? The candidates who are playing an active role in the problem, or the ones who are just claiming there is no problem and that we should all be friends? Yeah yeah, the project sucks. Whatever. Say, Josselin, why aren't you a DPL candidate? -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, Ashes to Ashes, stardate 53679.4 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 01:30:39PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: You should take irony supplements to replenish the irony lost to mailing lists. I think it'd be better if you could replenish the lost irony with goldy or silvery. Looks much nicer... /baldrick -- Fun will now commence -- Seven Of Nine, Ashes to Ashes, stardate 53679.4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: For those who care about stable updates
On Thu, Mar 09, 2006 at 10:18:22PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: I haven't answered the question because it wasn't one. You are implicitly answering it the line after, and I already know we disagree on this matter. Let me rephrase: 'Who exactly are the candidates claiming there are no problems, and we should all just be excessively nice to each other?'. But I'm sure you're intelligent enough to deduce that question from my statement. I was reacting to your calling me an idiot. That must be your own way of following the code of conduct [1] you are campaigning for [2]. I didn't call you an idiot. I have every reason to believe you're a relatively intelligent person. I was labelling your actions on this list. People can do stupid things without being fundamentally stupid: people can do immature or ill-considered things without generally being same. And so on, and so forth. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: For those who care about stable updates
If I were a crazier man I would say something like:
The end is neigh!
It is a dark, dark day for Debian, indeed.
Death of Debian predicted. Film at 11.
Believe it or not, but Joey's resign could actually be more a Good
Thing than a bad thing.
Seeing renewal and new blood come in is not necessarily bad. Not
because Joey did his job badly, au contraire. But mostly because
accumulated frustration would have slowly affected the quality of his
work, especially in his other tasks (such as the DWN or package
maintenance, or whichever task I'm not even aware he's in charge of).
Joey stepping down as Stable RM is also a strong sign and I tend to
believe this is also what he wants it to be. Let's take it as a sign
that we must handle some things better (don't like this word: things
are not black or white, usually).
In real life, when a (mini-)crisis like this one occurs in normal
organizations, a good management action is to analyse the causes of
the crisis and try to correct the organization to avoid further such
crisis.
This is the challenge for Debian. We face a few crisis, which we need
to take as opportunities to improve the way we work. Our challenge is
doing so without a manager (that's probably what Martin Michlmayr is
calling for in his now quite famous DPL as a strong leader blog).
I don't read -project (and I don't intend tounless ${DEITY} slows
down earth rotation to make 28 hours days) but from Amaya's posts, it
seems to me that discussions are happening on -project about such
issues...which is Good.
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