Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Samuel Thibault samuel.thiba...@ens-lyon.org writes: Giacomo Catenazzi, le Wed 08 Apr 2009 19:47:55 +0200, a écrit : Samuel Thibault wrote: I installed grub (and Debian). Trying the Windows hidden partition (to install windows), grub stopped working (it was rescue mode, but without capability to rescue something). Also rescue disk + reconfiguring + update-grub did nothing. Err, did you re-run install-grub? No ;-) only update-grub and dpkg-reconfigure -plow grub-pc grub-common Then little wonder. update-grub only updates menu.lst. I was expecting that reconfigure will do the right things, grub maintainers considered that it's a bad thing to automatically reinstall things in a MBR. You need to re-run grub-install to do that. Is there some easy way to find out what is installed where? Trying to use grub/grub2, I've often wondered: Is my grub installation on /dev/sda a) complete? or did some other OS/RAID controller/whatever overwrite parts of it? b) uptodate? or did I forget to run grub-install after upgrading the grub package c) identical to the /dev/sdb mirror? or did I forget to run grub-install after replacing /dev/sda? Some scripts answering these questions would really be helpful. Yes, I know. Send patches. Might do. Or just go for extlinux, which seems to DTRT for me. Bjørn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Giacomo A. Catenazzi c...@debian.org writes: Ferenc Wagner wrote: Giacomo A. Catenazzi c...@debian.org writes: Does grub use the unallocated disk space near the MBR? Yes. As far as I know, even grub2 does so, but pls. correct me. So next question: why does windoze installation write to these block (but not to MBR)? Ah, ok the windoze in question is already the answer ;-) Linux installation (with grub, that is, in most of the cases) writes there as well. On what basis do you blame Windows for the same? http://lwn.net/Articles/322777/ Thanks, that was a very interesting read. -- Cheers, Feri. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Samuel Thibault wrote: Giacomo Catenazzi, le Wed 08 Apr 2009 19:47:55 +0200, a écrit : Samuel Thibault wrote: I installed grub (and Debian). Trying the Windows hidden partition (to install windows), grub stopped working (it was rescue mode, but without capability to rescue something). Also rescue disk + reconfiguring + update-grub did nothing. Err, did you re-run install-grub? No ;-) only update-grub and dpkg-reconfigure -plow grub-pc grub-common Then little wonder. update-grub only updates menu.lst. I was expecting that reconfigure will do the right things, grub maintainers considered that it's a bad thing to automatically reinstall things in a MBR. You need to re-run grub-install to do that. but MBR was fine, i.e. I had the grub rescue prompt. But no way to boot from rescue prompt. I know to few about grub... So I wonder what was overwriten. Does grub use the unallocated disk space near the MBR? This is very bad: I think in future we will use also this space. The cylinder notation in partition table has no more physical meaning, so also the partition boundary could change (but there was a discussion about poor performance if partitions/filesystem was not aligned to the physical block sectors.) ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Giacomo A. Catenazzi c...@debian.org writes: Does grub use the unallocated disk space near the MBR? Yes. As far as I know, even grub2 does so, but pls. correct me. there was a discussion about poor performance if partitions/ filesystem was not aligned to the physical block sectors. I also heard hpa mention this. But this doesn't mean he is a big fan of using this space. Which discussion do you refer to? -- Feri. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Ferenc Wagner wrote: Giacomo A. Catenazzi c...@debian.org writes: Does grub use the unallocated disk space near the MBR? Yes. As far as I know, even grub2 does so, but pls. correct me. So next question: why does windoze installation write to these block (but not to MBR)? Ah, ok the windoze in question is already the answer ;-) there was a discussion about poor performance if partitions/ filesystem was not aligned to the physical block sectors. I also heard hpa mention this. But this doesn't mean he is a big fan of using this space. Which discussion do you refer to? I think this: http://lwn.net/Articles/322777/ (note: windoze align partition at 1MB according comments). ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009, Darren Salt wrote: For me, lilo works fine as it is. If I see something which affects me, I'll at least have a look at it; no guarantees, though, since there's a lot of stuff here with which I'm not familiar. From memory, lilo doesn't support partitioned md arrays. Since md has never learned to do cross-md-device read optimization, it would be very nice to use an entire disk as a single partitioned md device, instead of using partitions as md components. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Nenolod: sorry for the other mail. William Pitcock wrote: On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 13:06 -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM, William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk wrote: Lilo upstream is dead (no release in quite a while), but the lilo maintainer has also been seen as saying in various mailing lists etc, that since Debian patches lilo that he has no interest in helping to fix problems in our version. Ok but you could try to push those patches upstream. This is how grub has been improved and also parted. This works most of time. This way we reduce the amount of patches we keep in Debian and also you could try to get in touch with other distros to share the load and avoid reworking at same things. lilo is officially unmaintained now. The canonical website of lilo now points to a 404 error page, see http://lilo.go.dyndns.org/ . as grub was not really maintained. Also grub2 doesn't seems so fast in development. I think these kind of project have difficult to maintain motivated maintainer. What do the other distributions? extlinux seems the real alternative: the maintainer is active in kernel boot since a lot of years, he has a good knowledge of lilo (thus is not the usual: do a new project because I cannot read/understand the old code). OTOH hpa test always the boot changes in kernel, and lilo is always tested, so in this regards, he take also care about lilo. I think we need a discussion of the fate of lilo at DebConf. I volunteer to check and give you technical details of the main boot loaders for i386/amd64 architecture, so that we can decide better (and give inputs to upstream on what they miss). Any interest in such talk? BTW: my new laptop was saved by lilo ;-) I installed grub (and Debian). Trying the Windows hidden partition (to install windows), grub stopped working (it was rescue mode, but without capability to rescue something). Also rescue disk + reconfiguring + update-grub did nothing. Installing lilo gave me a know boot environment, and it worked at first try. So: lilo should live! ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: as grub was not really maintained. Also grub2 doesn't seems so fast in development. I think these kind of project have difficult to maintain motivated maintainer. I would really love to own a computer that used coreboot, Linux and a userland bootloader like kboot/kexec-loader/runnix to boot. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
As the silent co-maintainer of lilo I believe I should now voice my thoughts on this I too believe that lilo should belive that lilo should be remove *at some point* but now is not the time. So I restate my willingness to take over fully publicly. Upstream made a release of a bootloader in 2007 a bootloader is quite different from an internet facing service or a desktop app, so it is possible that upstream hasn't made a release because they haven't felt a need to existed. From this thread there still appears to be use cases for lilo and it seems to be meeting the needs of the people that need it. Unless there is a security hole or show stopping bug that makes the package totally unusable why remove it. There will eventually be that case and when such a time comes we will reexamine the issue but why fix what is working for people. Again I will take over the package if you (nenolod) don't want it anymore. I An RM seems overkill when a line in the package description will do nicely On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Giacomo A. Catenazzi c...@debian.org wrote: Nenolod: sorry for the other mail. William Pitcock wrote: On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 13:06 -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM, William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk wrote: Lilo upstream is dead (no release in quite a while), but the lilo maintainer has also been seen as saying in various mailing lists etc, that since Debian patches lilo that he has no interest in helping to fix problems in our version. Ok but you could try to push those patches upstream. This is how grub has been improved and also parted. This works most of time. This way we reduce the amount of patches we keep in Debian and also you could try to get in touch with other distros to share the load and avoid reworking at same things. lilo is officially unmaintained now. The canonical website of lilo now points to a 404 error page, see http://lilo.go.dyndns.org/ . as grub was not really maintained. Also grub2 doesn't seems so fast in development. I think these kind of project have difficult to maintain motivated maintainer. What do the other distributions? extlinux seems the real alternative: the maintainer is active in kernel boot since a lot of years, he has a good knowledge of lilo (thus is not the usual: do a new project because I cannot read/understand the old code). OTOH hpa test always the boot changes in kernel, and lilo is always tested, so in this regards, he take also care about lilo. I think we need a discussion of the fate of lilo at DebConf. I volunteer to check and give you technical details of the main boot loaders for i386/amd64 architecture, so that we can decide better (and give inputs to upstream on what they miss). Any interest in such talk? BTW: my new laptop was saved by lilo ;-) I installed grub (and Debian). Trying the Windows hidden partition (to install windows), grub stopped working (it was rescue mode, but without capability to rescue something). Also rescue disk + reconfiguring + update-grub did nothing. Installing lilo gave me a know boot environment, and it worked at first try. So: lilo should live! ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 11:05 -0400, Matt Arnold wrote: As the silent co-maintainer of lilo I believe I should now voice my thoughts on this I too believe that lilo should belive that lilo should be remove *at some point* but now is not the time. So I restate my willingness to take over fully publicly. Upstream made a release of a bootloader in 2007 a bootloader is quite different from an internet facing service or a desktop app, so it is possible that upstream hasn't made a release because they haven't felt a need to existed. From this thread there still appears to be use cases for lilo and it seems to be meeting the needs of the people that need it. Unless there is a security hole or show stopping bug that makes the package totally unusable why remove it. There will eventually be that case and when such a time comes we will reexamine the issue but why fix what is working for people. Again I will take over the package if you (nenolod) don't want it anymore. I An RM seems overkill when a line in the package description will do nicely Does this mean that you will become lilo upstream as well? Are you *qualified* to become lilo upstream? Do you know assembly language? (tip: most of the important parts are assembly language.) If not, then stop talking now. Anything less is unhealthy as it will just become another XMMS with lots of patches ontop of it to fix bugs. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 16:22 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: Nenolod: sorry for the other mail. William Pitcock wrote: On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 13:06 -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM, William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk wrote: Lilo upstream is dead (no release in quite a while), but the lilo maintainer has also been seen as saying in various mailing lists etc, that since Debian patches lilo that he has no interest in helping to fix problems in our version. Ok but you could try to push those patches upstream. This is how grub has been improved and also parted. This works most of time. This way we reduce the amount of patches we keep in Debian and also you could try to get in touch with other distros to share the load and avoid reworking at same things. lilo is officially unmaintained now. The canonical website of lilo now points to a 404 error page, see http://lilo.go.dyndns.org/ . as grub was not really maintained. Also grub2 doesn't seems so fast in development. I think these kind of project have difficult to maintain motivated maintainer. What do the other distributions? I've seen a few smaller distributions looking into extlinux as an alternative to lilo. Not sure what the redhat/fedora/centos/etc camp are doing though. extlinux seems the real alternative: the maintainer is active in kernel boot since a lot of years, he has a good knowledge of lilo (thus is not the usual: do a new project because I cannot read/understand the old code). OTOH hpa test always the boot changes in kernel, and lilo is always tested, so in this regards, he take also care about lilo. I think we need a discussion of the fate of lilo at DebConf. I volunteer to check and give you technical details of the main boot loaders for i386/amd64 architecture, so that we can decide better (and give inputs to upstream on what they miss). Any interest in such talk? It would be a good topic for discussion if I can make it to DebConf this year (which is probable, just a matter of getting a good deal on plane tickets). BTW: my new laptop was saved by lilo ;-) One of my newer servers was also saved by lilo (fucking adaptec SAS controllers...). However, the current health of lilo is still something to be concerned about. I installed grub (and Debian). Trying the Windows hidden partition (to install windows), grub stopped working (it was rescue mode, but without capability to rescue something). Also rescue disk + reconfiguring + update-grub did nothing. Installing lilo gave me a know boot environment, and it worked at first try. So: lilo should live! That's because grub does a number of things incorrectly as well. I don't think extlinux repeats those mistakes though, at least from what I have seen in production. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
No this means I take over the package try to cou ntact upstream etc and fyi i do know Intel X86 ASM (not well) but i learn fast as you know. I just think a This package is deprecated and may be removed at any time clause in the package desc is the best way to go here that way the people who use it as a fallback when GRUB doesn't work (self included) or otherwise can still continue to use it. I'm just not comfortable dropping it when it seems to work ok for most of the people who need to use it. cate dud just state that lilo worked for him. Why not let me have it for now and just let things flow as they will. Belive me i'm not about to let another XMMS style nightmare happen On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:21 PM, William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 11:05 -0400, Matt Arnold wrote: As the silent co-maintainer of lilo I believe I should now voice my thoughts on this I too believe that lilo should belive that lilo should be remove *at some point* but now is not the time. So I restate my willingness to take over fully publicly. Upstream made a release of a bootloader in 2007 a bootloader is quite different from an internet facing service or a desktop app, so it is possible that upstream hasn't made a release because they haven't felt a need to existed. From this thread there still appears to be use cases for lilo and it seems to be meeting the needs of the people that need it. Unless there is a security hole or show stopping bug that makes the package totally unusable why remove it. There will eventually be that case and when such a time comes we will reexamine the issue but why fix what is working for people. Again I will take over the package if you (nenolod) don't want it anymore. I An RM seems overkill when a line in the package description will do nicely Does this mean that you will become lilo upstream as well? Are you *qualified* to become lilo upstream? Do you know assembly language? (tip: most of the important parts are assembly language.) If not, then stop talking now. Anything less is unhealthy as it will just become another XMMS with lots of patches ontop of it to fix bugs. William -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
I installed grub (and Debian). Trying the Windows hidden partition (to install windows), grub stopped working (it was rescue mode, but without capability to rescue something). Also rescue disk + reconfiguring + update-grub did nothing. Err, did you re-run install-grub? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Wed, 2009-04-08 at 12:41 -0400, Matt Arnold wrote: No this means I take over the package try to cou ntact upstream etc ^^ THERE IS NO UPSTREAM ANYMORE. If you're not willing to become upstream and wish to take it over, then we gain NOTHING. There is NOT an upstream to talk to anymore when things break. Even the website is gone. and fyi i do know Intel X86 ASM (not well) but i learn fast as you know. I just think a This package is deprecated and may be removed at any time clause in the package desc is the best way to go here that way the people who use it as a fallback when GRUB doesn't work (self included) or otherwise can still continue to use it. I'm just not comfortable dropping it when it seems to work ok for most of the people who need to use it. cate dud just state that lilo worked for him. Why not let me have it for now and just let things flow as they will. Belive me i'm not about to let another XMMS style nightmare happen But, you will. Infact, you told me yesterday on IRC that your intention is to take over lilo maintenance to score points with DDs and that you just needed it for a few months. This isn't the right issue to score points on, as lack of proper maintenance is WORSE than not having it in Debian at all. So unless your attitude is different and you want to maintain a bootloader for the sake of maintaining it (I use lilo on older machines where grub1 does not work nicely), then please stop with this nonsense. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Samuel Thibault wrote: I installed grub (and Debian). Trying the Windows hidden partition (to install windows), grub stopped working (it was rescue mode, but without capability to rescue something). Also rescue disk + reconfiguring + update-grub did nothing. Err, did you re-run install-grub? No ;-) only update-grub and dpkg-reconfigure -plow grub-pc grub-common I was expecting that reconfigure will do the right things, but on the other side, without a good rescue CD (64-bit), I just renounced after 2 tries, not to redo the long d-i rescue procedure ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 11:21:12AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote: Does this mean that you will become lilo upstream as well? Are you *qualified* to become lilo upstream? Do you know assembly language? (tip: most of the important parts are assembly language.) If not, then stop talking now. Anything less is unhealthy as it will just become another XMMS with lots of patches ontop of it to fix bugs. No, it'll become another grub1 with lots of patches on top of it to fix bugs. Oh wait, it already is that. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 11:05:43AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote:
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 08:53 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 10:13:32AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote:
I agree here too. I think these install paths could be replaced by
ext2linux as well, if that is what is needed to be done.
And why in the world is it useful to transition these use cases to ext2linux
when we already have a lilo package that suits these needs perfectly well?
Because it does not.
That's not for you to say. There are clearly a large number of users who
are using lilo (3388 who also enable popcon - and if they're running popcon,
I guess that means lilo is working for them what with that whole booting
thing). So lilo *is* meeting the needs of these users, notwithstanding your
dissatisfaction with the use case coverage.
The LVM support in LILO is hideously broken, so these arguments do not
really matter. It only works in certain conditions and is known to break
horribly if you have say, a kernel spanning multiple PVs.
They matter to the users who are *using* lilo this way, whether or not you
happen to find the implementation to your liking.
I don't use lilo. I have gradually transitioned all my old installs over to
grub, delayed only by the need to accomodate the risks of downtime. That
doesn't mean I think it's acceptable to drop lilo on the floor for squeeze,
when it's still being offered as an installation option for *two* supported
Debian releases, in some cases by default, and there doesn't appear to be an
actual transition plan for those users who currently have lilo installed,
whether that's by necessity or choice.
Only a true idiot boots off an LVM volume anyway, since there is risk of
metadata corruption, etc.
Bullshit.
But, you will. Infact, you told me yesterday on IRC that your intention
is to take over lilo maintenance to score points with DDs and that you
just needed it for a few months. This isn't the right issue to score
points on, as lack of proper maintenance is WORSE than not having it in
Debian at all.
No - *bad* maintenance is worse than not having it in Debian at all. But
having the package in Debian on autopilot is *better* than leaving those
currently using it out in the cold, or giving them a poorly-implemented
transition.
Insisting that we drop lilo from the archive before any work has been done
to make a transition to grub{1,2} possible is putting the cart before the
horse.
--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org
--
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Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Giacomo Catenazzi, le Wed 08 Apr 2009 19:47:55 +0200, a écrit : Samuel Thibault wrote: I installed grub (and Debian). Trying the Windows hidden partition (to install windows), grub stopped working (it was rescue mode, but without capability to rescue something). Also rescue disk + reconfiguring + update-grub did nothing. Err, did you re-run install-grub? No ;-) only update-grub and dpkg-reconfigure -plow grub-pc grub-common Then little wonder. update-grub only updates menu.lst. I was expecting that reconfigure will do the right things, grub maintainers considered that it's a bad thing to automatically reinstall things in a MBR. You need to re-run grub-install to do that. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:46 +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: Quoting Frans Pop (elen...@planet.nl): I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be From lilo package BTS which I was tracking for l10n purposes. So I just happened to notice William's answer to a bug report and thought it would be good for this to be discussed in public. Clearly, I didn't choose the right place to discuss and the topic has wider implications than just D-I, as the followups show. Good thing that you made the discussion wider. Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO? Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one. Anyway, even if we don't, I think we should track that lilo removal and coordinate with William, in order to stop providing lilo-installer. And, I think this should be mentioned as a release goal (dropping lilo). Either high priority if we have install paths depending on lilo, or normal priority otherwise. D-I release goal or Debian release goal [1]? Clearly Debian release goal. IMO the latter could well be justified as there will also need to be some kind of upgrade strategy for existing users that does not make uncontrolled changes on their hard disk or loses them the ability to boot alternative OSes on dual (or multi) boot systems. Which might be very tricky But, as William mentioned in his original mail, upstream activity seems to be low so we need to figure out if we want to keep yet another unmaintained software in Debian. What later puzzled me if the mention in non collaboratve upstream *if we don't drop Debian patches*. That's not exactly inactive upstream so it would be good to clarify the situation of lilo upstream. Lilo upstream is dead (no release in quite a while), but the lilo maintainer has also been seen as saying in various mailing lists etc, that since Debian patches lilo that he has no interest in helping to fix problems in our version. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
* Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl [2009-04-07 02:54]: Martin Wuertele wrote: Actually lilo is installed by lenny d-i if you use root-sw-raid with LVM, even if your /boot is an differen partition/sw-raid. Therefore lilo should at least remain for sqeeze to ensure a proper upgrade path. I'm afraid you're mistaken here. Lenny D-I should (and AFAIK does) default to grub for that setup. /boot on normal partition or RAID1 + / on whatever combination of RAID+LVM is supported fine by grub. Unless there is some other factor that you've not mentioned D-I does not fall back to lilo for that. I wonder what it could be. I don't user XFS just plain ext3 and had to manually install grub for 2 recent setups. One is an IBM X3560 with harware-raid, /boot on one partitione, rest for lvm, the other is an X3220 with /boot on md0 and lvm on md1. For both D-I installed lilo. Yours Martin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Stephen Gran wrote: This one time, at band camp, William Pitcock said: The only way it is feasible to do so is to drop all of the Debian patches. Without this, upstream is not cooperative with us. Why is this? I think because of William Pitcock with: - his very strong words, - his attitude: perfect or nothing (in design, in management, ...), - his lack to listen upstreams and their needs: needs of other distributions, old compatibility needs, or simply time constrain and limited interest of upstream. ciao nenolod ;-) ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 11:10:25PM +0200, Iustin Pop wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 11:42:42AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote: On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:19 +0200, Vincent Zweije wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 06:06:38PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: || On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 08:02:04PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov un...@debian.org wrote: || I use lilo, I like lilo. || I don't like grub because it has unlogically config, unlogically || behavior, strange reconfig-system. I don't like the programs with || perverse intellect. Grub is not unixway. || || Which is more perverse to read a kernel? || - reading actual files from actual filesystems || - reading hardcoded blocks on the device I think this question should be: Which is more perverse to read without a kernel? The answer could still fall either way. No, the answer is always the second one. Err, why? I've seen grub failing more often, and heard way more report of this, than of lilo. Please explain why you say so. The grub installer also used to read the blockdevice while the filesystem was mounted, which is never the right answer. It has always seemed hackish to me, duplicating fs functionality (and not always correctly, e.g. related to journal replaying on ext3/xfs). A simple block list is just that. Run update-initramfs -u without running lilo. Oh, you boot on the old initramfs. Now remove the old initramfs and put some other files in /boot. Then you're likely to not be able to boot at all. That sure is better. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 22:20 +0100, Stephen Gran wrote: This one time, at band camp, William Pitcock said: The only way it is feasible to do so is to drop all of the Debian patches. Without this, upstream is not cooperative with us. Why is this? See my other mail, basically, lilo upstream view is that our patches broke it and that we have to fix it ourselves. I've seen him on various threads saying basically that over the years. But regardless, a lilo release has not been made in some time. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
D-I not using grub (was: lilo about to be dropped?)
Let's move this subthread back to d-boot. Reply-to set. Please let us know if you'd like to be CCed. Martin Wuertele wrote: * Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl [2009-04-07 02:54]: Martin Wuertele wrote: Actually lilo is installed by lenny d-i if you use root-sw-raid with LVM, even if your /boot is an differen partition/sw-raid. Therefore lilo should at least remain for sqeeze to ensure a proper upgrade path. I'm afraid you're mistaken here. Lenny D-I should (and AFAIK does) default to grub for that setup. /boot on normal partition or RAID1 + / on whatever combination of RAID+LVM is supported fine by grub. Unless there is some other factor that you've not mentioned D-I does not fall back to lilo for that. I wonder what it could be. I don't user XFS just plain ext3 and had to manually install grub for 2 recent setups. One is an IBM X3560 with harware-raid, /boot on one partitione, rest for lvm, the other is an X3220 with /boot on md0 and lvm on md1. For both D-I installed lilo. Next time you get in that situation, please add a 'set -x' in /var/lib/dpkg/info/grub-installer.isinstallable and then run it from one of the debug shells. That should tell you why D-I skips grub and falls back to lilo. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Harald Braumann wrote: * configuration of grub2 is really a PITA You can't specify boot options per entry (there's only a global option in /etc/default grub, that applies to all entries). You may want to check bug 470398. The patch is probably outdated by now, though. Requiring bug/patch submitters to suscribe to a relatively active list is definitely the wrong thing to do, which is why the patch didn't make it upstream (and the maintainer, who is active upstream too, doesn't seem to care to do it himself). -- Felipe Sateler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
]] William Pitcock | Have you looked into ext2linux? It is intended to supercede lilo. I | think your usage requirements will be satisfied by it. It does not appear to exist in Debian? -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM, William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk wrote: Lilo upstream is dead (no release in quite a while), but the lilo maintainer has also been seen as saying in various mailing lists etc, that since Debian patches lilo that he has no interest in helping to fix problems in our version. Ok but you could try to push those patches upstream. This is how grub has been improved and also parted. This works most of time. This way we reduce the amount of patches we keep in Debian and also you could try to get in touch with other distros to share the load and avoid reworking at same things. -- Otavio Salvador O.S. Systems E-mail: ota...@ossystems.com.br http://www.ossystems.com.br Mobile: +55 53 9981-7854 http://projetos.ossystems.com.br -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 10:52 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: Stephen Gran wrote: This one time, at band camp, William Pitcock said: The only way it is feasible to do so is to drop all of the Debian patches. Without this, upstream is not cooperative with us. Why is this? I think because of William Pitcock with: - his very strong words, - his attitude: perfect or nothing (in design, in management, ...), - his lack to listen upstreams and their needs: needs of other distributions, old compatibility needs, or simply time constrain and limited interest of upstream. ciao nenolod ;-) Actually, the damage was done years ago, long before I ever maintained lilo. But thanks for the flame. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Tue, 2009-04-07 at 13:06 -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:21 PM, William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk wrote: Lilo upstream is dead (no release in quite a while), but the lilo maintainer has also been seen as saying in various mailing lists etc, that since Debian patches lilo that he has no interest in helping to fix problems in our version. Ok but you could try to push those patches upstream. This is how grub has been improved and also parted. This works most of time. This way we reduce the amount of patches we keep in Debian and also you could try to get in touch with other distros to share the load and avoid reworking at same things. lilo is officially unmaintained now. The canonical website of lilo now points to a 404 error page, see http://lilo.go.dyndns.org/ . So at this point, our only option seems to be taking over upstream lilo maintainance ourselves (which could be a good thing in some ways, I am not denying that), or find a way to transition these use-cases to grub/grub2/extlinux. However, if we are to maintain lilo ourselves, then we need to flesh out exactly what usecases we're going to be using it for. I recommend if we go that route that we come up with a list of improvements that we want to see and get to hacking. If some of the people who like lilo a lot got around to helping with a fork, we could create a much less buggy bootloader than the current lilo. Alternatively, we can just leave it and let it become another XMMS. I don't like this solution very much. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk (07/04/2009): Alternatively, we can just leave it and let it become another XMMS. I don't like this solution very much. Beware, gtk3 is coming, so you'd better update lilo to no longer depend on gtk2! Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 07:36:40AM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 11:10:25PM +0200, Iustin Pop wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 11:42:42AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote: On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:19 +0200, Vincent Zweije wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 06:06:38PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: || On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 08:02:04PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov un...@debian.org wrote: || I use lilo, I like lilo. || I don't like grub because it has unlogically config, unlogically || behavior, strange reconfig-system. I don't like the programs with || perverse intellect. Grub is not unixway. || || Which is more perverse to read a kernel? || - reading actual files from actual filesystems || - reading hardcoded blocks on the device I think this question should be: Which is more perverse to read without a kernel? The answer could still fall either way. No, the answer is always the second one. Err, why? I've seen grub failing more often, and heard way more report of this, than of lilo. Please explain why you say so. The grub installer also used to read the blockdevice while the filesystem was mounted, which is never the right answer. It has always seemed hackish to me, duplicating fs functionality (and not always correctly, e.g. related to journal replaying on ext3/xfs). A simple block list is just that. Run update-initramfs -u without running lilo. Oh, you boot on the old initramfs. Now remove the old initramfs and put some other files in /boot. Then you're likely to not be able to boot at all. That sure is better. Are you complaining that lilo allows one to shot oneself in the foot? Because that how it looks like. My point is that in controlled environments, lilo looks to be more stable. Not for desktop usage, not for update-iniramfs usage without knowing what needs to be done. Again, my point is (like the grand-grand-parent), that the answer differs by application. grubs is not always better. regards, iustin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:24:54 -0500
William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk wrote:
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 16:17 +0200, Harald Braumann wrote:
Yes, I do and it works without problems. There are some
inconveniences, though, with grub2, which might make some stick
with LILO:
The LVM support in LILO is hideously broken, so these arguments do not
really matter.
Works for me.
It only works in certain conditions and is known to
break horribly if you have say, a kernel spanning multiple PVs.
Only a true idiot boots off an LVM volume anyway,
You're too nice. Anyway, boot is the least important partition. Any
live CD or USB installation will do to recover.
since there is risk of metadata corruption, etc.
What metadata are you talking about, and what's it got to do with the
boot partition?
The is no simple configuration file that one could edit. You have to
write scripts to add entries.
/boot/grub/{menu.lst,grub.conf} is hard to edit...?
No, but since grub2 doesn't use those, your statement is moot. So are
the following.
You can't specify the default entry (only the number of the entry,
which changes if a new kernel is installed) and there is no
vmlinuz/vmlinuz.old (unless you add a script that adds these
entries)
default X in the config file, and setdefault, works for me.
You can't specify boot options per entry (there's only a global
option in /etc/default grub, that applies to all entries).
Sure you can, just don't use update-grub(1) and update it yourself
instead. Same as lilo, really.
William
harry
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Re: lilo about to be dropped?
I demand that William Pitcock may or may not have written... [snip] So at this point, our only option seems to be taking over upstream lilo maintainance ourselves (which could be a good thing in some ways, I am not denying that), I say go for it... or find a way to transition these use-cases to grub/grub2/extlinux. Assuming, for the moment, that extlinux is equivalent to syslinux at least as far as configuration goes, then I see that some lilo configuration options which I use or have had use for appear to be missing: addappend optional password restricted [snip] I recommend if we go that route that we come up with a list of improvements that we want to see and get to hacking. If some of the people who like lilo a lot got around to helping with a fork, we could create a much less buggy bootloader than the current lilo. For me, lilo works fine as it is. If I see something which affects me, I'll at least have a look at it; no guarantees, though, since there's a lot of stuff here with which I'm not familiar. Alternatively, we can just leave it and let it become another XMMS. I don't like this solution very much. /AOL. -- | Darren Salt| linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon | RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army | Let's keep the pound sterling Beauty seldom recommends one to another. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote: Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org): lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and the widespread availability of alternatives. I think that last part is debatable. I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will be gone by June. Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be removed. This is a heads up mail for the D-I team. I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions for lilo. There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at least for them, very good reasons. Anyone remember the fairly big upset when lilo was removed from testing around D-I Lenny Beta2? Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO? Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one. Anyway, even if we don't, I think we should track that lilo removal and coordinate with William, in order to stop providing lilo-installer. And, I think this should be mentioned as a release goal (dropping lilo). Either high priority if we have install paths depending on lilo, or normal priority otherwise. D-I release goal or Debian release goal [1]? IMO the latter could well be justified as there will also need to be some kind of upgrade strategy for existing users that does not make uncontrolled changes on their hard disk or loses them the ability to boot alternative OSes on dual (or multi) boot systems. Cheers, FJP [1] goal is a somewhat strange term here... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon Apr 06 08:55, Frans Pop wrote: This is a heads up mail for the D-I team. I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions for lilo. There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at least for them, very good reasons. Yes, please do discuss it here. I am one of those users, grub didn't work on one of my machines for some reason. Anyway, isn't grub1 equally unmaintained upstream? I thought they were only working on grub2 (which isn't ready for use yet, or is it?) Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO? Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one. We _certainly_ shouldn't throw it out if there are _known_ situations for which it's required. By all means print large warnings or only make it available in expert mode, or whatever, but please don't break existing functionality. Matt -- Matthew Johnson signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Le Monday 06 April 2009 09:32:14 Matthew Johnson, vous avez écrit : Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO? Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one. We _certainly_ shouldn't throw it out if there are _known_ situations for which it's required. By all means print large warnings or only make it available in expert mode, or whatever, but please don't break existing functionality. Agreed 100% ! I also use lilo for /boot on LVM and I also clearly remember that was the major reason for the previous debate about the removal of lilo. I don't see what has changed so far which may change the situation compared to that time.. Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Romain Beauxis wrote: I also use lilo for /boot on LVM and I also clearly remember that was the major reason for the previous debate about the removal of lilo. Grub2 in lenny and later contains an lvm module: /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/lvm.mod Has anyone who uses lilo for this tried grub2? -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Matthew Johnson mj...@debian.org writes: On Mon Apr 06 08:55, Frans Pop wrote: This is a heads up mail for the D-I team. I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions for lilo. There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at least for them, very good reasons. Yes, please do discuss it here. I am one of those users, grub didn't work on one of my machines for some reason. Anyway, isn't grub1 equally unmaintained upstream? I thought they were only working on grub2 (which isn't ready for use yet, or is it?) So lets get grub2 working everywhere. :) A worthy goal. Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO? Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one. We _certainly_ shouldn't throw it out if there are _known_ situations for which it's required. We just shouldn't have /boot on lvm. At least there should be one place outside lvm to store /etc/lvm/archive and /etc/lvm/backup so that in the case lvm breaks (gets broken by the user) one can repair it. Linking them to /boot/lvm/archive and /boot/lvm/backup with /boot outside lvm seem like a good idea. The problem with /boot on lvm is that moving or resizing it can break it. So I always found it a good partition to keep outside lvm. By all means print large warnings or only make it available in expert mode, or whatever, but please don't break existing functionality. Matt -- Matthew Johnson MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon Apr 06 11:07, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: So lets get grub2 working everywhere. :) A worthy goal. Sure, but don't remove lilo until we're happy that grub2 does work everywhere. Matt -- Matthew Johnson signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl writes: On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote: [...] I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will be gone by June. Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be removed. Fully agree; it should be properly offered for adoption. This is a heads up mail for the D-I team. I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions for lilo. There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at least for them, very good reasons. Anyone remember the fairly big upset when lilo was removed from testing around D-I Lenny Beta2? I also share the feeling that a lot of people still uses LILO; if possible I do belive it should be kept. [...] -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: ota...@debian.org UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:03:10 +0800 Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Romain Beauxis wrote: I also use lilo for /boot on LVM and I also clearly remember that was the major reason for the previous debate about the removal of lilo. Grub2 in lenny and later contains an lvm module: /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/lvm.mod Has anyone who uses lilo for this tried grub2? Yes, I do and it works without problems. There are some inconveniences, though, with grub2, which might make some stick with LILO: * on boot it takes quite some time for grub2 to scan the disks for LVM volumes * configuration of grub2 is really a PITA The is no simple configuration file that one could edit. You have to write scripts to add entries. You can't specify the default entry (only the number of the entry, which changes if a new kernel is installed) and there is no vmlinuz/vmlinuz.old (unless you add a script that adds these entries) You can't specify boot options per entry (there's only a global option in /etc/default grub, that applies to all entries). Cheers, harry signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
I demand that Otavio Salvador may or may not have written... Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl writes: [snip] Anyone remember the fairly big upset when lilo was removed from testing around D-I Lenny Beta2? I also share the feeling that a lot of people still use LILO; if possible I do belive it should be kept. AOL. I for one use it, and intend to continue using it. -- | Darren Salt| linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon | RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army | + Output less CO2 = avoid massive flooding.TIME IS RUNNING OUT *FAST*. Under Windows, a program will expand to fill all available virtual memory. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 16:17 +0200, Harald Braumann wrote:
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:03:10 +0800
Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote:
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Romain Beauxis wrote:
I also use lilo for /boot on LVM and I also clearly remember that
was the major reason for the previous debate about the removal of
lilo.
Grub2 in lenny and later contains an lvm module:
/usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/lvm.mod
Has anyone who uses lilo for this tried grub2?
Yes, I do and it works without problems. There are some inconveniences,
though, with grub2, which might make some stick with LILO:
The LVM support in LILO is hideously broken, so these arguments do not
really matter. It only works in certain conditions and is known to break
horribly if you have say, a kernel spanning multiple PVs.
Only a true idiot boots off an LVM volume anyway, since there is risk of
metadata corruption, etc. The real reasoning for carrying LILO around is
for machines where grub1 does not work, and we have ext2linux for those
situations now.
* on boot it takes quite some time for grub2 to scan the disks for LVM
volumes
* configuration of grub2 is really a PITA
The is no simple configuration file that one could edit. You have to
write scripts to add entries.
/boot/grub/{menu.lst,grub.conf} is hard to edit...?
You can't specify the default entry (only the number of the entry,
which changes if a new kernel is installed) and there is no
vmlinuz/vmlinuz.old (unless you add a script that adds these entries)
default X in the config file, and setdefault, works for me.
You can't specify boot options per entry (there's only a global option
in /etc/default grub, that applies to all entries).
Sure you can, just don't use update-grub(1) and update it yourself
instead. Same as lilo, really.
William
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Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Frans Pop wrote:
On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:
Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):
lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
the widespread availability of alternatives.
I think that last part is debatable.
I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
be gone by June.
Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an
overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that
if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be
removed.
This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be
discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I
suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions
for lilo.
There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at
least for them, very good reasons.
I totally agree.
But I think that lilo package description must be changed, warning new
users that lilo have several limits (thus not all kernel within debian
are bootable with lilo).
Maybe we could also require grub{,2} when installing lilo (chained
as other in lilo, for emergency, new debian kernel policies, etc),
but I don't know if it is feasible (e.g. when lilo is not in MBR).
ciao
cate
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Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 15:09 +0100, Darren Salt wrote: I demand that Otavio Salvador may or may not have written... Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl writes: [snip] Anyone remember the fairly big upset when lilo was removed from testing around D-I Lenny Beta2? I also share the feeling that a lot of people still use LILO; if possible I do belive it should be kept. AOL. I for one use it, and intend to continue using it. Have you looked into ext2linux? It is intended to supercede lilo. I think your usage requirements will be satisfied by it. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 10:24:54AM -0500, William Pitcock neno...@sacredspiral.co.uk wrote: On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 16:17 +0200, Harald Braumann wrote: You can't specify boot options per entry (there's only a global option in /etc/default grub, that applies to all entries). Sure you can, just don't use update-grub(1) and update it yourself instead. Same as lilo, really. Even with update-grub, you can: ## If you want special options for specific kernels use kopt_x_y_z ## where x.y.z is kernel version. Minor versions can be omitted. ## e.g. kopt=root=/dev/hda1 ro ## kopt_2_6_8=root=/dev/hdc1 ro ## kopt_2_6_8_2_686=root=/dev/hdc2 ro This suits most needs. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 10:44 -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote: Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl writes: On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote: [...] I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will be gone by June. Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be removed. Fully agree; it should be properly offered for adoption. This is a heads up mail for the D-I team. I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions for lilo. There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at least for them, very good reasons. Anyone remember the fairly big upset when lilo was removed from testing around D-I Lenny Beta2? I also share the feeling that a lot of people still uses LILO; if possible I do belive it should be kept. The only way it is feasible to do so is to drop all of the Debian patches. Without this, upstream is not cooperative with us. However, I think ext2linux is a feasible upgrade path and that lilo will become unnecessary by the release of squeeze. William -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
William Pitcock wrote:
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:26 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
Frans Pop wrote:
On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:
Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):
lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
the widespread availability of alternatives.
I think that last part is debatable.
I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
be gone by June.
Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an
overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that
if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be
removed.
This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be
discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I
suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions
for lilo.
There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at
least for them, very good reasons.
I totally agree.
But I think that lilo package description must be changed, warning new
users that lilo have several limits (thus not all kernel within debian
are bootable with lilo).
Maybe we could also require grub{,2} when installing lilo (chained
as other in lilo, for emergency, new debian kernel policies, etc),
but I don't know if it is feasible (e.g. when lilo is not in MBR).
chainloader will work with lilo, but lilo is only kept around for the
people who are crazy and booting off LVMs as it is.
Yes, but it works if you have an additional partition (for boot
record). I don't know if they could live in the same partition
(with some magic).
But IIRC lilo fails also in other cases: some xen immages, on very big
images (which can be reached in some initram).
Booting off LVMs is supported directly by grub2 and ext2linux could
probably be modified to support it in a much better way than lilo does
it, so this is not really a compelling argument for keeping it.
What is ext2linux? packages.d.o and google doesn't give me relevant
informations.
ciao
cate
William
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Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:26 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
Frans Pop wrote:
On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:
Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):
lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
the widespread availability of alternatives.
I think that last part is debatable.
I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
be gone by June.
Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an
overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that
if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be
removed.
This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be
discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I
suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions
for lilo.
There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at
least for them, very good reasons.
I totally agree.
But I think that lilo package description must be changed, warning new
users that lilo have several limits (thus not all kernel within debian
are bootable with lilo).
Maybe we could also require grub{,2} when installing lilo (chained
as other in lilo, for emergency, new debian kernel policies, etc),
but I don't know if it is feasible (e.g. when lilo is not in MBR).
chainloader will work with lilo, but lilo is only kept around for the
people who are crazy and booting off LVMs as it is.
Booting off LVMs is supported directly by grub2 and ext2linux could
probably be modified to support it in a much better way than lilo does
it, so this is not really a compelling argument for keeping it.
William
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Re: lilo about to be dropped?
OS I also share the feeling that a lot of people still uses LILO; if OS possible I do belive it should be kept. I use lilo, I like lilo. I don't like grub because it has unlogically config, unlogically behavior, strange reconfig-system. I don't like the programs with perverse intellect. Grub is not unixway. I shall use lilo until it is possible. Dear, lilo maintainers! Please don't remove lilo*.deb from debian. -- ... mpd paused: Accept - Can't Stand The Night . ''`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov : :’ : email: un...@debian.org jabber://un...@uvw.ru `. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21 `- 1B23 D4F8 8EC0 D902 0555 E438 AB8C 00CF F8E2 6537 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 08:02:04PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov un...@debian.org wrote: OS I also share the feeling that a lot of people still uses LILO; if OS possible I do belive it should be kept. I use lilo, I like lilo. I don't like grub because it has unlogically config, unlogically behavior, strange reconfig-system. I don't like the programs with perverse intellect. Grub is not unixway. Which is more perverse to read a kernel? - reading actual files from actual filesystems - reading hardcoded blocks on the device Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:40 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
William Pitcock wrote:
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 17:26 +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
Frans Pop wrote:
On Monday 06 April 2009, Christian Perrier wrote:
Quoting William Pitcock (neno...@dereferenced.org):
lilo is due for removal anyway due to being unmaintained upstream and
the widespread availability of alternatives.
I think that last part is debatable.
I do not have time to manage the removal at this point, but it will
be gone by June.
Has the package already been offered for adoption? Preferably with an
overview of its current (upstream) status and main issues. I'd say that
if there's anybody willing to (actively) maintain it, it should not be
removed.
This is a heads up mail for the D-I team.
I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be
discussed on d-devel, especially since it impacts more than just D-I. I
suspect there are quite a few packages that make some sort of provisions
for lilo.
There are also significant numbers of people still using lilo for, at
least for them, very good reasons.
I totally agree.
But I think that lilo package description must be changed, warning new
users that lilo have several limits (thus not all kernel within debian
are bootable with lilo).
Maybe we could also require grub{,2} when installing lilo (chained
as other in lilo, for emergency, new debian kernel policies, etc),
but I don't know if it is feasible (e.g. when lilo is not in MBR).
chainloader will work with lilo, but lilo is only kept around for the
people who are crazy and booting off LVMs as it is.
Yes, but it works if you have an additional partition (for boot
record). I don't know if they could live in the same partition
(with some magic).
But IIRC lilo fails also in other cases: some xen immages, on very big
images (which can be reached in some initram).
Booting off LVMs is supported directly by grub2 and ext2linux could
probably be modified to support it in a much better way than lilo does
it, so this is not really a compelling argument for keeping it.
What is ext2linux? packages.d.o and google doesn't give me relevant
informations.
Oops. It is extlinux. It's syslinux except it boots off a hard-disk
instead of a floppy or CD. Quite similar to lilo in featureset.
William
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Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 06:06:38PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: || On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 08:02:04PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov un...@debian.org wrote: || I use lilo, I like lilo. || I don't like grub because it has unlogically config, unlogically || behavior, strange reconfig-system. I don't like the programs with || perverse intellect. Grub is not unixway. || || Which is more perverse to read a kernel? || - reading actual files from actual filesystems || - reading hardcoded blocks on the device I think this question should be: Which is more perverse to read without a kernel? The answer could still fall either way. Personally, as one point of measurement, I prefer lilo because it's lightweight. Ciao. Vincent. -- Vincent Zweije zwe...@xs4all.nl| If you're flamed in a group you http://www.xs4all.nl/~zweije/ | don't read, does anybody get burnt? [Xhost should be taken out and shot] |-- Paul Tomblin on a.s.r. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:06 +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 08:02:04PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov un...@debian.org wrote: OS I also share the feeling that a lot of people still uses LILO; if OS possible I do belive it should be kept. I use lilo, I like lilo. I don't like grub because it has unlogically config, unlogically behavior, strange reconfig-system. I don't like the programs with perverse intellect. Grub is not unixway. Which is more perverse to read a kernel? - reading actual files from actual filesystems - reading hardcoded blocks on the device Not to mention that it breaks if the blocks span multiple devices. See also: LVM. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:19 +0200, Vincent Zweije wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 06:06:38PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: || On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 08:02:04PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov un...@debian.org wrote: || I use lilo, I like lilo. || I don't like grub because it has unlogically config, unlogically || behavior, strange reconfig-system. I don't like the programs with || perverse intellect. Grub is not unixway. || || Which is more perverse to read a kernel? || - reading actual files from actual filesystems || - reading hardcoded blocks on the device I think this question should be: Which is more perverse to read without a kernel? The answer could still fall either way. No, the answer is always the second one. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Quoting Frans Pop (elen...@planet.nl): I'm not sure where the original mail comes from, but IMO this should be From lilo package BTS which I was tracking for l10n purposes. So I just happened to notice William's answer to a bug report and thought it would be good for this to be discussed in public. Clearly, I didn't choose the right place to discuss and the topic has wider implications than just D-I, as the followups show. Good thing that you made the discussion wider. Don't we have some install paths that still depend on LILO? Yes: /boot on LVM is the main one. Anyway, even if we don't, I think we should track that lilo removal and coordinate with William, in order to stop providing lilo-installer. And, I think this should be mentioned as a release goal (dropping lilo). Either high priority if we have install paths depending on lilo, or normal priority otherwise. D-I release goal or Debian release goal [1]? Clearly Debian release goal. IMO the latter could well be justified as there will also need to be some kind of upgrade strategy for existing users that does not make uncontrolled changes on their hard disk or loses them the ability to boot alternative OSes on dual (or multi) boot systems. Which might be very tricky But, as William mentioned in his original mail, upstream activity seems to be low so we need to figure out if we want to keep yet another unmaintained software in Debian. What later puzzled me if the mention in non collaboratve upstream *if we don't drop Debian patches*. That's not exactly inactive upstream so it would be good to clarify the situation of lilo upstream. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
* William Pitcock neno...@dereferenced.org [2009-04-06 17:48]: chainloader will work with lilo, but lilo is only kept around for the people who are crazy and booting off LVMs as it is. Booting off LVMs is supported directly by grub2 and ext2linux could probably be modified to support it in a much better way than lilo does it, so this is not really a compelling argument for keeping it. Actually lilo is installed by lenny d-i if you use root-sw-raid with LVM, even if your /boot is an differen partition/sw-raid. Therefore lilo should at least remain for sqeeze to ensure a proper upgrade path. Furthermore I still have 2 machines that refuse to boot with either grub or grub2 but work fine with lilo. And finally your continous insulting of users is not beneficial to the discussion so please refrain from calling others crazy or stupid. yours Martin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
WP No, the answer is always the second one. If they add a scheduler (why not? :-\) into the grub it will be become Linux. -- ... mpd paused: Accept - Can't Stand The Night . ''`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov : :’ : email: un...@debian.org jabber://un...@uvw.ru `. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21 `- 1B23 D4F8 8EC0 D902 0555 E438 AB8C 00CF F8E2 6537 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
I demand that William Pitcock may or may not have written... [snip] Have you looked into ext2linux? It is intended to supercede lilo. I think your usage requirements will be satisfied by it. No; I've not heard of it before. And I can't find it, at least not reasonably easily... :-| -- | Darren Salt| linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon | RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army | + Burn less waste. Use less packaging. Waste less. USE FEWER RESOURCES. I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 11:42:42AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote: On Mon, 2009-04-06 at 18:19 +0200, Vincent Zweije wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 06:06:38PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: || On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 08:02:04PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov un...@debian.org wrote: || I use lilo, I like lilo. || I don't like grub because it has unlogically config, unlogically || behavior, strange reconfig-system. I don't like the programs with || perverse intellect. Grub is not unixway. || || Which is more perverse to read a kernel? || - reading actual files from actual filesystems || - reading hardcoded blocks on the device I think this question should be: Which is more perverse to read without a kernel? The answer could still fall either way. No, the answer is always the second one. Err, why? I've seen grub failing more often, and heard way more report of this, than of lilo. Please explain why you say so. The grub installer also used to read the blockdevice while the filesystem was mounted, which is never the right answer. It has always seemed hackish to me, duplicating fs functionality (and not always correctly, e.g. related to journal replaying on ext3/xfs). A simple block list is just that. iustin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
This one time, at band camp, Paul Wise said: Grub2 in lenny and later contains an lvm module: /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/lvm.mod Has anyone who uses lilo for this tried grub2? hadrian:~# mount /dev/mapper/HADRIAN-ROOT on / type ext3 (rw,relatime,errors=remount-ro) tmpfs on /lib/init/rw type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=0755) proc on /proc type proc (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev) procbususb on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw) udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw,mode=0755) tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,noexec,nosuid,gid=5,mode=620) /dev/mapper/HADRIAN-HOME on /home type ext3 (rw,relatime) /dev/mapper/HADRIAN-TMP on /tmp type ext3 (rw,relatime) /dev/mapper/HADRIAN-USR on /usr type ext3 (rw,relatime) /dev/mapper/HADRIAN-VAR on /var type ext3 (rw,relatime) /dev/mapper/HADRIAN-SRV on /srv type ext3 (rw,relatime) rpc_pipefs on /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs type rpc_pipefs (rw) nfsd on /proc/fs/nfsd type nfsd (rw) ii grub-pc1.96+20080724-16 It works just fine, once you abandon the expectation that the maintainer scripts will do anything at all on fresh in install. Kudos to the d-i team for hiding how little the grub maintainer scripts do. -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :sg...@debian.org | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
This one time, at band camp, William Pitcock said: The only way it is feasible to do so is to drop all of the Debian patches. Without this, upstream is not cooperative with us. Why is this? -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :sg...@debian.org | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
Martin Wuertele wrote: Actually lilo is installed by lenny d-i if you use root-sw-raid with LVM, even if your /boot is an differen partition/sw-raid. Therefore lilo should at least remain for sqeeze to ensure a proper upgrade path. I'm afraid you're mistaken here. Lenny D-I should (and AFAIK does) default to grub for that setup. /boot on normal partition or RAID1 + / on whatever combination of RAID+LVM is supported fine by grub. Unless there is some other factor that you've not mentioned D-I does not fall back to lilo for that. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: lilo about to be dropped?
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009, Matthew Johnson wrote: On Mon Apr 06 11:07, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: So lets get grub2 working everywhere. :) A worthy goal. Sure, but don't remove lilo until we're happy that grub2 does work everywhere. And that we have something resembling acceptable, up-to-date documentation for it. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
