Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
OoO En cette nuit nuageuse du dimanche 24 avril 2011, vers 00:07, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net disait : The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. It's my understanding that in Germany lawyers can do this to copyright violators even though they are not the copyright holder. And it's very likely he's a copyright violator, so there's not much Debian can do. No, really. The GPL V2 requires that if you distribute, you either a) accompany a binary with the source code b) accompany it with a written offer to give everyone a copy of the source code for three years, or c) accompany it with an offer to distribute source code, if it's noncommercial distribution and you received the program inder b). It's very unlikely that b or c applies, and most people who torrent Linux don't put a copy of the source code in the torrent, so a is unlikely. The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. In the case of Debian distribution, the source code is available at http://www.debian.org which fullfils section a) since it is a medium customarily used for software interchange. -- printk(Cool stuff's happening!\n) 2.4.3 linux/fs/jffs/intrep.c pgpNiQvwU3Ywr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On 04/24/2011 12:07 AM, Ken Arromdee wrote: On Sat, 23 Apr 2011, Stefan Hirschmann wrote: The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. It's my understanding that in Germany lawyers can do this to copyright violators even though they are not the copyright holder. And it's very likely he's a copyright violator, so there's not much Debian can do. No, really. The GPL V2 requires that if you distribute, you either a) accompany a binary with the source code b) accompany it with a written offer to give everyone a copy of the source code for three years, or c) accompany it with an offer to distribute source code, if it's noncommercial distribution and you received the program inder b). It's very unlikely that b or c applies, and most people who torrent Linux don't put a copy of the source code in the torrent, so a is unlikely. The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. Which means he's (probably) technically a copyright violator, just a copyright violator that everyone has agreed to ignore because the GPL V2 is unwieldy that way. But lawyers in Germany can go after copyright violators who the copyright holders ignore. The GPL V3 had to have a clause written in specifically allowing Bittorrent (see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#BitTorrent) because of the problems legally using it with V2. As absurd as this argumentation sounds to me (but then I'm a mere engineer and find matters of law often to be very confusing), following it makes the Debian project a direct accomplice in copyright violation, see http://www.debian.org/CD/torrent-cd. By providing these torrents, the Debian project makes everybody in Germany who uses them a copyright violator. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4db3e5d7.7050...@gmail.com
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Stefan Hirschmann wrote: Short English summary: - A lawyer from Augsburg, Germany sent a Abmahnung [2] to a person which downloaded Debian using Bittorrent. The company Media Art Holland b.v claimed that she has the Nutzungs und Verwertungsrechte (something like distribution rights). The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. [1] http://www.lima-city.de/thread/abmahnung-im-haus (written in German) [2] see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abmahnung I agree. I'm cc'ing the DPL to see if the project can ask SPI-inc.org lawyers for assistance. Do we have access to German legal expertise? Hope that helps, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110424101159.479629e...@nail.towers.org.uk
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop schrieb: Stefan Hirschmann wrote: Short English summary: - A lawyer from Augsburg, Germany sent a Abmahnung [2] to a person which downloaded Debian using Bittorrent. The company Media Art Holland b.v claimed that she has the Nutzungs und Verwertungsrechte (something like distribution rights). The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. [1] http://www.lima-city.de/thread/abmahnung-im-haus (written in German) [2] see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abmahnung I agree. I'm cc'ing the DPL to see if the project can ask SPI-inc.org lawyers for assistance. Do we have access to German legal expertise? Till Jaeger is known to be a lawyer affiliated with FOSS. He's one of the co-founders of ifrOSS (http://www.ifross.org/en) : http://www.jbb.de/anwaelte/till-jaeger/ Cheers, Moritz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnir7u87.4f5@inutil.org
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Op 24/04/2011 14:02, Stefano Zacchiroli schreef: I think the first step to do is to get hold of the original cease and desist mail. Has anyone managed to have it yet? This story sounds too absurd to be true. I've googled for the keywords Media Art Holland and I can't find the web site of that company. Does it even exist? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4db43c39.3000...@gmail.com
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Vincent Bernat wrote: The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. In the case of Debian distribution, the source code is available at http://www.debian.org which fullfils section a) since it is a medium customarily used for software interchange. Doesn't work. You have to *accompany* it with the source code. Pointing to an unconnected third party's site has never been considered to satisfy this clause. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.lrh.2.00.1104240818100.22...@oxygen.rahul.net
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Michael Wild wrote: The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. As absurd as this argumentation sounds to me (but then I'm a mere engineer and find matters of law often to be very confusing), following it makes the Debian project a direct accomplice in copyright violation, see http://www.debian.org/CD/torrent-cd. By providing these torrents, the Debian project makes everybody in Germany who uses them a copyright violator. It makes everyone who uses it everywhere a copyright violator, it's just that only in Germany can a third party demand money for the violation. The GPLV2 just wasn't written with torrents in mind (since it was created before torrents). This was a real enough problem that the FSF had to fix it for GPLV3. Ancillary propagation of a covered work occurring solely as a consequence of using peer-to-peer transmission to receive a copy likewise does not require acceptance. Realistically, of course, this German lawyer probably picked Debian at random, and has no idea that it's free to distribute. The fact that he picked an obscure case where, on a technicality, he's right is just a coincidence and he knows nothing about Debian, the GPL, or torrenting. So (despite what I may have suggested before) telling him not to do this may have some effect. Also, I don't know German law, so I don't know if there are any limits on German law that Debian might be able to point to (such as whether he can ask for damages for something that's free). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.lrh.2.00.1104240821020.22...@oxygen.rahul.net
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Joerg Schilling or LaForge too may be good sources of information.
-- Sriram
On 4/24/11, Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 11:11:58AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
I agree. I'm cc'ing the DPL to see if the project can ask SPI-inc.org
lawyers for assistance. Do we have access to German legal expertise?
I don't think it would be terribly useful to ask SPI for assistance, as
they are mostly involved with US-based stuff, but I'll check with them
nonetheless. In the meantime, the good contact point for German legal
expertise to start with would be FFIS. I'm not sure if they have in
house legal expertise, but they are SPI associate and take care of most
legal/administrative Debian affairs in Europe.
As I don't grok German myself, I would appreciate if someone who does
can check with them directly (Cc:-ing me). Doing otherwise will only add
extra hops.
Nonetheless, and as I've already pointed out to others, I think the
first step to do is to get hold of the original cease and desist
mail. Has anyone managed to have it yet?
Cheers.
PS I'm not subscribed to -legal, please Cc:-me if you want to get my
attention.
--
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Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net writes: It's my understanding that in Germany lawyers can do this to copyright violators even though they are not the copyright holder. This is not true. Under German competition law, someone can hire a lawyer to send a cease-and-desist letter to a competitor if they are gaining an unfair advantage, say, by infrining on a third party's copyright. The cost for the laywer then has to be paid by the perpetrator, but no lawyer may act solely by himself. However, this is definitely not what has happened here. In this case, a Dutch company claimed that they were having exclusive distribution rights on squeeze, which rather seems to be an attempt at fraud to me. On the other hand, ensuring GPL compliance for torrent distribution seems to be a good idea. Hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/874o5ntz8s@mid.gienah.enyo.de
Providing source for .iso files downloaded using bittorrent
Hi everyone, the request to stop redistributing Debian in Germany sparked an interesting conversation in identi.ca: http://identi.ca/conversation/69498913 In that conversation Bradley Kuhn said: bkuhn @vinzv, Please note: *technically speaking*, !Debian project itself violates !GPlv2 w/ #torrent distribution too! All who use it infringe ©. Richard Fontana does not agree: fontana @bkuhn I think to some degree you are engaging in #FUD on the # bittorrent !GPL issue Asking Bradley for some clarification he said: bkuhn @mem, problem is question of informing #torrent users when source/binary torrents are separate. See !GPLv3 §6(e) various supporting docs. The best thing I was able to find to provide some light into the issue was: mem @bkuhn ah, here: http://gplv3.fsf.org/bittorrent-dd2.pdf/view #torrent #gpl Now, back to the Debian case, Bradley seems to think that providing a method to download the source (e.g. apt-get source) is not enough. If I understand it correctly, he's saying we must do something extra to comply with GPLv2§3: a) provide the source *in* the .iso; b) provide a written offer and all that; or c) show that we have a written offer from upstream. a) is not going to happen, we don't have c) in the general case so b) it is (from his point of view). My interpretation of the whole thing is that in order to comply with the terms of the GPLv2, we should put yet another file, README.GPLv2, in the .iso explaining how to obtain the sources and accompany that with the offer to provide source for three years, etc, etc, etc per GPLv2§3(b). I have to say that I'm still not 100% clear on how the violation is happening, but this was obviously a real concern during the drafting of the GPLv3, since the new version does contain clauses meant to deal with this. If I'm not mistaken our very own MRJ raised the issue during that process. My own concern is that when using Bittorrent, the people downloading the .iso start distributing the software *before* they had a chance to read the license. By redistributing you are already excersicing your rights under the GPLv2, which means you have accepted all the terms and conditions. What do you think? Marcelo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110424231141.GA22677@esk
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 09:57:22PM +0530, Sriram Narayanan wrote: Joerg Schilling You must be joking. We're looking for legal expertise, not reality distortion fields. or LaForge too may be good sources of information. Who? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110425003247.ga17...@virgil.dodds.net
Re: Providing source for .iso files downloaded using bittorrent
Marcelo E. Magallon mmaga...@debian.org wrote: Now, back to the Debian case, Bradley seems to think that providing a method to download the source (e.g. apt-get source) is not enough. If I understand it correctly, he's saying we must do something extra to comply with GPLv2§3: a) provide the source *in* the .iso; b) provide a written offer and all that; or c) show that we have a written offer from upstream. a) is not going to happen, we don't have c) in the general case so b) it is (from his point of view). I do not think that Debian, itself, has any problems. The GPL says If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code. Debian distributes both the source and binaries from its worldwide mirrors. Even though it may be technically more difficult to get the source, Debian is still distributing the source from the same place (Debian mirrors). The case for the Bittorrent users, on the other hand, is less clear. Since the users are dependent on the Debian tracker, you could argue that they are merely acting as agents of Debian. Anyone setting up their own tracker would have to distribute both binary and source. Cheers, Walter Landry wlan...@caltech.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110424.175408.534319940737453550.wal...@geodynamics.org
Re: Providing source for .iso files downloaded using bittorrent
Marcelo E. Magallon mmaga...@debian.org writes: My interpretation of the whole thing is that in order to comply with the terms of the GPLv2, we should put yet another file, README.GPLv2, in the .iso explaining how to obtain the sources and accompany that with the offer to provide source for three years, etc, etc, etc per GPLv2§3(b). Thanks very much for following that conversation and summarising here. My own concern is that when using Bittorrent, the people downloading the .iso start distributing the software *before* they had a chance to read the license. Oof. That's a good point: the GPL speaks of redistribution / propagation as though it were an instantaneous action, or maybe a “transaction” in programming terms: either complete, or not done at all. But that's simply not how it works. Any download is going to take time, and can be interrupted leaving part of the work downloaded. For a one-way download that doesn't much matter, but peer-to-peer fragmentary sharing exposes the oversimplification. By redistributing you are already excersicing your rights under the GPLv2, which means you have accepted all the terms and conditions. What do you think? You're right to bring it up, but I think the anonymous peer-to-peer distribution method breaks traditional ideas of copying and hence the applicability of copyright just isn't going to be clear in such cases. One possible argument is to apply the intention of the GPLv3 authors retrospectively to the GPLv2 intention: to argue that, though it's not written in the terms, the licensor's intent is to permit “ancillary propagation” (as per GPLv3§9) of a work under GPLv2. That's a pretty weak argument, though. -- \“Members of the general public commonly find copyright rules | `\implausible, and simply disbelieve them.” —Jessica Litman, | _o__) _Digital Copyright_ | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87k4ejnnp3@benfinney.id.au
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org wrote: On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 09:57:22PM +0530, Sriram Narayanan wrote: or LaForge too may be good sources of information. Who? Harald Welte, founder of gpl-violations.org: http://gpl-violations.org/about.html#whois -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTi=+bohr8qjovcbwyq9xemgnhw+...@mail.gmail.com
