Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 11:36:37AM -0700, Ken Arromdee wrote: On Tue, 26 Apr 2011, Jeff Epler wrote: I'm trying to figure out how transmitting a range of bytes in a torrent is different than transmitting a range of bytes in response to e.g., an FTP REST or an HTTP byte-range request. It's not. Imagine that instead of torrenting the file, you just downloaded it by FTP, then made it available for someone else to get by FTP. I agree that a debian ISO image such as http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/6.0.1a/i386/iso-cd/debian-6.0.1a-i386-netinst.iso does not fulfill the 3.a) complete machine-readable source code condition for distribution. Are you saying that nothing inside a (complete) debian ISO image containing GPLv2 software in executable form fulfills either the 3.b) written offer or 3.c) information you received conditions for distribution? That if I give someone a CDR with a debian*netinst.iso burned on it it and nothing else, I'm violating the GPLv2? If so, it seems to me that this is a bug in debian that could be fixed. Once that's fixed, and if you agree that receiving the file divided into distinct packets over a network system, then it seems you'd have to agree that bittorrent distribution is OK too. Jeff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110428121458.ga8...@unpythonic.net
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Thu, 28 Apr 2011, Jeff Epler wrote: Are you saying that nothing inside a (complete) debian ISO image containing GPLv2 software in executable form fulfills either the 3.b) written offer or 3.c) information you received conditions for distribution? That if I give someone a CDR with a debian*netinst.iso burned on it it and nothing else, I'm violating the GPLv2? Debian doesn't distribute any GPLed works under 3b or 3c for precisely this reason. If you want to give someone Debian, you should give them the multi-arch DVD image. (Or alternatively, give them the opportunity to pick up a set of sources on some image.) If so, it seems to me that this is a bug in debian that could be fixed. Fixing it for random third parties is very difficult, and not something that Debian wants to be on the line for maintaining, especially for unreleased architectures. You yourself are of course free to produce a written offer. Don Armstrong -- One day I put instant coffee in my microwave oven and almost went back in time. -- Steven Wright http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110428173357.gv23...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Ken Arromdee wrote: [GPLv2, section 3] That section only applies if you got a written offer. People who use Bittorrent to download (and therefore to upload) Debian don't have a written offer, so they can't take advantage of that clause. (Debian itself is, as you point out, distributing source on the same medium, so may be okay, but the downloader isn't.) If they're using something like http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/6.0.1a/i386/bt-cd/ to start the download, then I think it's still the debian project distributing the iso, albeit through the computers of willing participants, so mmagallo's idea would suffice. I'd welcome further explanation (cases?) why the project's torrents aren't the project distributing. Thanks, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110426094755.443539e...@nail.towers.org.uk
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
* Stefan Hirschmann: My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. From what I've read, it is not clear at all whether a lawyer actually sent anything. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87aafd2b04@mid.deneb.enyo.de
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Tue, 26 Apr 2011, Jeff Epler wrote: I'm trying to figure out how transmitting a range of bytes in a torrent is different than transmitting a range of bytes in response to e.g., an FTP REST or an HTTP byte-range request. It's not. Imagine that instead of torrenting the file, you just downloaded it by FTP, then made it available for someone else to get by FTP. That would be illegal too, if you made it available without source (and didn't receive a written offer which you passed on). You can only distribute with source. The difference is that if you are using FTP, when you get around to distributing it, you can put the source up at the same time. If you're using torrents, you're automatically distributing it without any chance to distribute the source (unless the source is in the same torrent). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.lrh.2.00.1104261132090.4...@oxygen.rahul.net
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Florian Weimer fw at deneb.enyo.de writes: * Stefan Hirschmann: My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. From what I've read, it is not clear at all whether a lawyer actually sent anything. Hi, the company is called Holland Art B.V. B.V is dutch pointing to the legal form of the company. The company is not listed at de Dutch camber of commerce as Media Art Holland BV. There are a few companies listed with combinations of media and art. Non of these companies are known to me as acting against Debian in any way in the Netherlands. Calling the German lawyer to find out who are his client might be a good idea. Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/loom.20110426t205748-...@post.gmane.org
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
[...] Calling the German lawyer to find out who are his client might be a good idea. I heard from other sources, which I consider trustworthy, that this was discovered to be a fake letter, sent as a sort of bad joke. Therefore, the specific case is of no real interest, although I agree that the problem of torrent distribution is worth addressing. /alessandro -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110426204103.ga18...@mail.gnudd.com
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Ken Arromdee wrote: On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Vincent Bernat wrote: The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. In the case of Debian distribution, the source code is available at http://www.debian.org which fullfils section a) since it is a medium customarily used for software interchange. Doesn't work. You have to *accompany* it with the source code. Pointing to an unconnected third party's site has never been considered to satisfy this clause. How do you reconcile your claim with these sections of the GPLv2 and v3, both referring to an executable or object-code form of the work? GPLv2, section 3: You may Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) GPLv3, subsection 6e: You may Convey the object code using peer-to-peer transmission, provided you inform other peers where the object code and Corresponding Source of the work are being offered to the general public at no charge under subsection 6d. (There is also a separate clause similar to what GPLv2 has.) Arguably the GPLv2 clause doesn't apply because Debian is typically distributed with the source code available on the same medium (server), rather than with a written offer to provide source code, but I think the spirit -- particularly given the GPLv3's added section to address peer-to-peer technology, which did not really exist when GPLv2 was written -- would protect a peer-to-peer sharer of Debian. Michael Poole -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTikSKgUdJP1uStsdHVt32=zEzK2=x...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Michael Poole wrote: How do you reconcile your claim with these sections of the GPLv2 and v3, both referring to an executable or object-code form of the work? GPLv2, section 3: You may Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) ... Arguably the GPLv2 clause doesn't apply because Debian is typically distributed with the source code available on the same medium (server), rather than with a written offer to provide source code You just answered your own question. That section only applies if you got a written offer. People who use Bittorrent to download (and therefore to upload) Debian don't have a written offer, so they can't take advantage of that clause. (Debian itself is, as you point out, distributing source on the same medium, so may be okay, but the downloader isn't.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.lrh.2.00.1104251317010.11...@oxygen.rahul.net
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
OoO En cette nuit nuageuse du dimanche 24 avril 2011, vers 00:07, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net disait : The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. It's my understanding that in Germany lawyers can do this to copyright violators even though they are not the copyright holder. And it's very likely he's a copyright violator, so there's not much Debian can do. No, really. The GPL V2 requires that if you distribute, you either a) accompany a binary with the source code b) accompany it with a written offer to give everyone a copy of the source code for three years, or c) accompany it with an offer to distribute source code, if it's noncommercial distribution and you received the program inder b). It's very unlikely that b or c applies, and most people who torrent Linux don't put a copy of the source code in the torrent, so a is unlikely. The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. In the case of Debian distribution, the source code is available at http://www.debian.org which fullfils section a) since it is a medium customarily used for software interchange. -- printk(Cool stuff's happening!\n) 2.4.3 linux/fs/jffs/intrep.c pgpNiQvwU3Ywr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On 04/24/2011 12:07 AM, Ken Arromdee wrote: On Sat, 23 Apr 2011, Stefan Hirschmann wrote: The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. It's my understanding that in Germany lawyers can do this to copyright violators even though they are not the copyright holder. And it's very likely he's a copyright violator, so there's not much Debian can do. No, really. The GPL V2 requires that if you distribute, you either a) accompany a binary with the source code b) accompany it with a written offer to give everyone a copy of the source code for three years, or c) accompany it with an offer to distribute source code, if it's noncommercial distribution and you received the program inder b). It's very unlikely that b or c applies, and most people who torrent Linux don't put a copy of the source code in the torrent, so a is unlikely. The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. Which means he's (probably) technically a copyright violator, just a copyright violator that everyone has agreed to ignore because the GPL V2 is unwieldy that way. But lawyers in Germany can go after copyright violators who the copyright holders ignore. The GPL V3 had to have a clause written in specifically allowing Bittorrent (see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#BitTorrent) because of the problems legally using it with V2. As absurd as this argumentation sounds to me (but then I'm a mere engineer and find matters of law often to be very confusing), following it makes the Debian project a direct accomplice in copyright violation, see http://www.debian.org/CD/torrent-cd. By providing these torrents, the Debian project makes everybody in Germany who uses them a copyright violator. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4db3e5d7.7050...@gmail.com
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Stefan Hirschmann wrote: Short English summary: - A lawyer from Augsburg, Germany sent a Abmahnung [2] to a person which downloaded Debian using Bittorrent. The company Media Art Holland b.v claimed that she has the Nutzungs und Verwertungsrechte (something like distribution rights). The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. [1] http://www.lima-city.de/thread/abmahnung-im-haus (written in German) [2] see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abmahnung I agree. I'm cc'ing the DPL to see if the project can ask SPI-inc.org lawyers for assistance. Do we have access to German legal expertise? Hope that helps, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110424101159.479629e...@nail.towers.org.uk
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop schrieb: Stefan Hirschmann wrote: Short English summary: - A lawyer from Augsburg, Germany sent a Abmahnung [2] to a person which downloaded Debian using Bittorrent. The company Media Art Holland b.v claimed that she has the Nutzungs und Verwertungsrechte (something like distribution rights). The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. [1] http://www.lima-city.de/thread/abmahnung-im-haus (written in German) [2] see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abmahnung I agree. I'm cc'ing the DPL to see if the project can ask SPI-inc.org lawyers for assistance. Do we have access to German legal expertise? Till Jaeger is known to be a lawyer affiliated with FOSS. He's one of the co-founders of ifrOSS (http://www.ifross.org/en) : http://www.jbb.de/anwaelte/till-jaeger/ Cheers, Moritz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnir7u87.4f5@inutil.org
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Op 24/04/2011 14:02, Stefano Zacchiroli schreef: I think the first step to do is to get hold of the original cease and desist mail. Has anyone managed to have it yet? This story sounds too absurd to be true. I've googled for the keywords Media Art Holland and I can't find the web site of that company. Does it even exist? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4db43c39.3000...@gmail.com
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Vincent Bernat wrote: The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. In the case of Debian distribution, the source code is available at http://www.debian.org which fullfils section a) since it is a medium customarily used for software interchange. Doesn't work. You have to *accompany* it with the source code. Pointing to an unconnected third party's site has never been considered to satisfy this clause. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.lrh.2.00.1104240818100.22...@oxygen.rahul.net
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Michael Wild wrote: The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. As absurd as this argumentation sounds to me (but then I'm a mere engineer and find matters of law often to be very confusing), following it makes the Debian project a direct accomplice in copyright violation, see http://www.debian.org/CD/torrent-cd. By providing these torrents, the Debian project makes everybody in Germany who uses them a copyright violator. It makes everyone who uses it everywhere a copyright violator, it's just that only in Germany can a third party demand money for the violation. The GPLV2 just wasn't written with torrents in mind (since it was created before torrents). This was a real enough problem that the FSF had to fix it for GPLV3. Ancillary propagation of a covered work occurring solely as a consequence of using peer-to-peer transmission to receive a copy likewise does not require acceptance. Realistically, of course, this German lawyer probably picked Debian at random, and has no idea that it's free to distribute. The fact that he picked an obscure case where, on a technicality, he's right is just a coincidence and he knows nothing about Debian, the GPL, or torrenting. So (despite what I may have suggested before) telling him not to do this may have some effect. Also, I don't know German law, so I don't know if there are any limits on German law that Debian might be able to point to (such as whether he can ask for damages for something that's free). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.lrh.2.00.1104240821020.22...@oxygen.rahul.net
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Joerg Schilling or LaForge too may be good sources of information.
-- Sriram
On 4/24/11, Stefano Zacchiroli lea...@debian.org wrote:
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 11:11:58AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
I agree. I'm cc'ing the DPL to see if the project can ask SPI-inc.org
lawyers for assistance. Do we have access to German legal expertise?
I don't think it would be terribly useful to ask SPI for assistance, as
they are mostly involved with US-based stuff, but I'll check with them
nonetheless. In the meantime, the good contact point for German legal
expertise to start with would be FFIS. I'm not sure if they have in
house legal expertise, but they are SPI associate and take care of most
legal/administrative Debian affairs in Europe.
As I don't grok German myself, I would appreciate if someone who does
can check with them directly (Cc:-ing me). Doing otherwise will only add
extra hops.
Nonetheless, and as I've already pointed out to others, I think the
first step to do is to get hold of the original cease and desist
mail. Has anyone managed to have it yet?
Cheers.
PS I'm not subscribed to -legal, please Cc:-me if you want to get my
attention.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
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ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
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Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net writes: It's my understanding that in Germany lawyers can do this to copyright violators even though they are not the copyright holder. This is not true. Under German competition law, someone can hire a lawyer to send a cease-and-desist letter to a competitor if they are gaining an unfair advantage, say, by infrining on a third party's copyright. The cost for the laywer then has to be paid by the perpetrator, but no lawyer may act solely by himself. However, this is definitely not what has happened here. In this case, a Dutch company claimed that they were having exclusive distribution rights on squeeze, which rather seems to be an attempt at fraud to me. On the other hand, ensuring GPL compliance for torrent distribution seems to be a good idea. Hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/874o5ntz8s@mid.gienah.enyo.de
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 09:57:22PM +0530, Sriram Narayanan wrote: Joerg Schilling You must be joking. We're looking for legal expertise, not reality distortion fields. or LaForge too may be good sources of information. Who? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110425003247.ga17...@virgil.dodds.net
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org wrote: On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 09:57:22PM +0530, Sriram Narayanan wrote: or LaForge too may be good sources of information. Who? Harald Welte, founder of gpl-violations.org: http://gpl-violations.org/about.html#whois -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTi=+bohr8qjovcbwyq9xemgnhw+...@mail.gmail.com
Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
Hi! Today I noticed a strang forum posting: [1] Short English summary: - A lawyer from Augsburg, Germany sent a Abmahnung [2] to a person which downloaded Debian using Bittorrent. The company Media Art Holland b.v claimed that she has the Nutzungs und Verwertungsrechte (something like distribution rights). The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. Stefan [1] http://www.lima-city.de/thread/abmahnung-im-haus (written in German) [2] see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abmahnung -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4db3224f.3090...@gmx.at
Re: Lawyer request stop from downloading Debian
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011, Stefan Hirschmann wrote: The lawyer wants the poster to pay 700 Euro and stop uploading of Debian. - My opion is that this behavior is not good for Debian's reputation and the project should take legal action against the lawyer and this company. It's my understanding that in Germany lawyers can do this to copyright violators even though they are not the copyright holder. And it's very likely he's a copyright violator, so there's not much Debian can do. No, really. The GPL V2 requires that if you distribute, you either a) accompany a binary with the source code b) accompany it with a written offer to give everyone a copy of the source code for three years, or c) accompany it with an offer to distribute source code, if it's noncommercial distribution and you received the program inder b). It's very unlikely that b or c applies, and most people who torrent Linux don't put a copy of the source code in the torrent, so a is unlikely. The problem is that on Bittorrent, everyone who downloads also uploads. This makes it illegal to download just a binary, since if you do that you're also uploading just a binary, and uploading just a binary is a form of distribution the GPL doesn't allow. Which means he's (probably) technically a copyright violator, just a copyright violator that everyone has agreed to ignore because the GPL V2 is unwieldy that way. But lawyers in Germany can go after copyright violators who the copyright holders ignore. The GPL V3 had to have a clause written in specifically allowing Bittorrent (see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#BitTorrent) because of the problems legally using it with V2. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.lrh.2.00.1104231442130.5...@oxygen.rahul.net
