Re: The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
Hey,
On 05/07/2009 Fabio Tranchitella wrote:
* 2009-07-02 14:04, Jonas Meurer wrote:
I do think that the debian zope managment tools (dzhandle,
zope-debhelper) do a great job, and I really would be sad to see them
go.
I already did some housekeeping maintenance work for zope2.{10,11} and
zope-common in the past, and I intend to continue that work in the
future.
zope-common is really usable on for Zope2: nobody uses instances for the
zope3 stack anymore. Maybe we should make a new upload to zope-common do
remove support for the zope3 stack (which will be removed from unstable
very soon, as a monolithic package).
yes, if dzhandle is not useful for zope3 anymore, then zope3 support
should be removed from it. i didn't use zope3 yet, so i don't know
anything about that.
With that roadmap we at least would have one zope2 version in
debian/unstable all the time.
It is possible, are you going to commit yourself to maintain it? That would
be great: I'm not a zope2 consumer anymore, so it is quite pointless for me
to maintain it.
in fact i already prepared and uploaded zope2.11 and also did the last
uploads of zope2.10 and zope-common. and i intend to keep on doing the
work. so yes, i somehow do feel responsible for zope2 in debian :-)
still i would be really glad to have you as backup maintainer,
especially as you have much more zope/python skills than I do.
greetings,
jonas
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
Hello, * 2009-07-05 16:33, Jonas Meurer wrote: in fact i already prepared and uploaded zope2.11 and also did the last uploads of zope2.10 and zope-common. and i intend to keep on doing the work. so yes, i somehow do feel responsible for zope2 in debian :-) still i would be really glad to have you as backup maintainer, especially as you have much more zope/python skills than I do. Feel free to keep me in the uploaders field: I'm willing to help as a co-maintainer, but I don't have time to work as the only maintainer of zope2.X. I think we should remove zope2.10 from Debian now, though. -- Fabio Tranchitella http://www.kobold.it Free Software Developer and Consultant http://www.tranchitella.it _ 1024D/7F961564, fpr 5465 6E69 E559 6466 BF3D 9F01 2BF8 EE2B 7F96 1564 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
On 05/07/2009 Fabio Tranchitella wrote: * 2009-07-05 16:33, Jonas Meurer wrote: in fact i already prepared and uploaded zope2.11 and also did the last uploads of zope2.10 and zope-common. and i intend to keep on doing the work. so yes, i somehow do feel responsible for zope2 in debian :-) still i would be really glad to have you as backup maintainer, especially as you have much more zope/python skills than I do. Feel free to keep me in the uploaders field: I'm willing to help as a co-maintainer, but I don't have time to work as the only maintainer of zope2.X. I think we should remove zope2.10 from Debian now, though. no problem, but please at least lets keep zope2.11 for some more time. greetings, jonas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
Hello,
On 23/06/2009 Fabio Tranchitella wrote:
In the last couple of weeks Brian Sutherland, Matthias Klose and I worked
together to improve the Zope packaging for Debian and Ubuntu. This e-mail
summarizes the problems we faced, the decisions that have been taken and the
changes that we will upload to experimental and unstable in the next weeks.
First, it's great to see some process in the zope maintenance. Thanks
for your great work.
We also drop support for Zope 2 and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu, asking
for the removal of the packages from the distribution.
I would like to object against that decision, but see below.
Zope 2 and Plone
Zope 2 and Plone are obviously related, so the future of one of the two
influences the other one.
The main problem for Zope2 is that the current stable upstream branch
(2.12) still requires pthon2.4. This is not acceptable in Debian and
Ubuntu, and Zope 2 is right now the only stopper for the removal of
python2.4 from both Debian and Ubuntu.
As already mentioned by someone else, zope2.12 will support pyhton2.5
and python2.6. Thus it should no longer be a problem to have zope2.X in
debian/ubuntu without python2.4.
Even worse, the current stable Plone releases requires Zope 2.10, which we
suppose will never support anything but python2.4 in the foreseeable
future. The new major upstream branch (Plone 4) is still far from being
released, which means
that the only way to support Plone and Zope 2.x in Debian and Ubuntu is to
keep python2.4 in the distribution.
I don't use or know much about plone, so I cannot comment on here, but
as mentioned by someone, there seems to be some process to support newer
zope2 releases and python2.5+ as well.
For this reason, together with the upstream suggestions to use the unified
installer and zc.buildout as primary tools for deploying Zope 2 and Plone,
the Debian/Ubuntu Zope Team decided to drop support for Zope 2, Plone and
all the other Zope 2 products. We will file requests of removal for all the
Zope and Plone packages from the archive.
I do think that the debian zope managment tools (dzhandle,
zope-debhelper) do a great job, and I really would be sad to see them
go.
I already did some housekeeping maintenance work for zope2.{10,11} and
zope-common in the past, and I intend to continue that work in the
future.
Maybe we could just remove zope2.10 from the archive now, wait until a
zope2.12 release candidate is published, then upload that one, and
finally remove zope2.11 and python2.4 as well?
With that roadmap we at least would have one zope2 version in
debian/unstable all the time.
greetings,
jonas
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
Re: The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
Hello, * 2009-06-24 07:30, Balazs Ree wrote: What's the reason for the removal of python2.4? Is there a technological reason, or is this a policy decision? Don't forget that Plone users, who are also the biggest consumer group of Zope / ZTK, still will be users of 2.4 for a while. The unified installer is not the only installation method used for Plone, in fact many users and the majority of deployments use python + buildout. These users will need to read documentation and do installation to be able to bootstrap their buildout, which is not exactly a reason for them to choose Debian / Ubuntu in this case. We already have python2.5 and python2.6; after the release of stable (either Debian or Ubuntu), we have to provide security support for all the packages, and supporting three different versions of python is too much work. -- Fabio Tranchitella http://www.kobold.it Free Software Developer and Consultant http://www.tranchitella.it _ 1024D/7F961564, fpr 5465 6E69 E559 6466 BF3D 9F01 2BF8 EE2B 7F96 1564 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
Hello all! In the last couple of weeks Brian Sutherland, Matthias Klose and I worked together to improve the Zope packaging for Debian and Ubuntu. This e-mail summarizes the problems we faced, the decisions that have been taken and the changes that we will upload to experimental and unstable in the next weeks. Short summary = We switch from a monolithic Zope 3 package to individual packages for the libraries that are part of the ZTK (Zope Toolkit). Zope instance management tools are not supported anymore, as we suggest the use of WSGI. We also drop support for Zope 2 and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu, asking for the removal of the packages from the distribution. Background == It is a known fact that the Zope community, as well as the Plone one, prefers to use other means of installation for their software and usually dislikes the integration of Zope and Plone with the Debian and Ubuntu distributions. The suggested upstream way to install plone, for example, is the unified installer. ZTK developers suggest the use of zc.buildout. These tools create an isolated environment where it is possible to develop and run your software with a very limited interactions with the rest of the system. I think it is better to split the two worlds, Zope2 and ZTK, to better understand their specific needs. ZTK === Right now zope3 is a monolithic source and binary package which provides all the python libraries released inside the old-style monolithic tarball called Zope 3. Upstream stopped distributing Zope 3 as a monolithic tarball, transforming the concept of a monolithic Zope 3 framework into a collection of independent python libraries (the ZTK, Zope Toolkit). The eggification of Zope 3 is a great path towards interoperability between different python frameworks, and we decided to modify our packaging methods in this direction: each library will be packaged as an independent source/binary package. Considering that WSGI is the actual standard for python web frameworks the instance management tools, previously part of the zope3 package, won't be packaged anymore: the most important WSGI servers and tools are already packaged and available in the archive. It is worth mentioning that the last monolithic release only supports python2.5, but some of the libraries that are part of the Zope Toolkit already support python2.6. It's also important to note that a lot of software in the monolithic tarball will not be present in the ZTK packages because it is deprecated/unmaintained at source and has large/complex dependency trees. For these reasons we decided to focus on relatively stable packages which have sane dependency graphs. Other packages may be maintained, but outside the official repositories. We will only maintain what members of the Debian/Ubuntu Zope team use, focusing on automatic testing to provide the high quality standards. As of today, these are the packages supported by the team: - transaction - zc.lockfile - ZConfig - zdaemon - ZODB3 - zope.authentication - zope.browser - zope.cachedescriptors - zope.component - zope.configuration - zope.dottedname - zope.event - zope.exceptions - zope.hookable - zope.i18nmessageid - zope.interface - zope.location - zope.proxy - zope.publisher - zope.schema - zope.security - zope.testbrowser - zope.testing - zope.traversing The aforementioned policy is also available from the team web page: http://pkg-zope.alioth.debian.org. Comments and suggestions are welcome! Zope 2 and Plone Zope 2 and Plone are obviously related, so the future of one of the two influences the other one. The main problem for Zope2 is that the current stable upstream branch (2.12) still requires pthon2.4. This is not acceptable in Debian and Ubuntu, and Zope 2 is right now the only stopper for the removal of python2.4 from both Debian and Ubuntu. Even worse, the current stable Plone releases requires Zope 2.10, which we suppose will never support anything but python2.4 in the foreseeable future. The new major upstream branch (Plone 4) is still far from being released, which means that the only way to support Plone and Zope 2.x in Debian and Ubuntu is to keep python2.4 in the distribution. For this reason, together with the upstream suggestions to use the unified installer and zc.buildout as primary tools for deploying Zope 2 and Plone, the Debian/Ubuntu Zope Team decided to drop support for Zope 2, Plone and all the other Zope 2 products. We will file requests of removal for all the Zope and Plone packages from the archive. Thanks for reading this! Fabio Tranchitella on behalf of the Debian/Ubuntu Zope Team -- Fabio Tranchitella kob...@debian.org.''`. Proud Debian GNU/Linux developer, admin and user.: :' : `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~kobold/ `-
The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
Hello all! In the last couple of weeks Brian Sutherland, Matthias Klose and I worked together to improve the Zope packaging for Debian and Ubuntu. This e-mail summarizes the problems we faced, the decisions that have been taken and the changes that we will upload to experimental and unstable in the next weeks. Short summary = We switch from a monolithic Zope 3 package to individual packages for the libraries that are part of the ZTK (Zope Toolkit). Zope instance management tools are not supported anymore, as we suggest the use of WSGI. We also drop support for Zope 2 and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu, asking for the removal of the packages from the distribution. Background == It is a known fact that the Zope community, as well as the Plone one, prefers to use other means of installation for their software and usually dislikes the integration of Zope and Plone with the Debian and Ubuntu distributions. The suggested upstream way to install plone, for example, is the unified installer. ZTK developers suggest the use of zc.buildout. These tools create an isolated environment where it is possible to develop and run your software with a very limited interactions with the rest of the system. I think it is better to split the two worlds, Zope2 and ZTK, to better understand their specific needs. ZTK === Right now zope3 is a monolithic source and binary package which provides all the python libraries released inside the old-style monolithic tarball called Zope 3. Upstream stopped distributing Zope 3 as a monolithic tarball, transforming the concept of a monolithic Zope 3 framework into a collection of independent python libraries (the ZTK, Zope Toolkit). The eggification of Zope 3 is a great path towards interoperability between different python frameworks, and we decided to modify our packaging methods in this direction: each library will be packaged as an independent source/binary package. Considering that WSGI is the actual standard for python web frameworks the instance management tools, previously part of the zope3 package, won't be packaged anymore: the most important WSGI servers and tools are already packaged and available in the archive. It is worth mentioning that the last monolithic release only supports python2.5, but some of the libraries that are part of the Zope Toolkit already support python2.6. It's also important to note that a lot of software in the monolithic tarball will not be present in the ZTK packages because it is deprecated/unmaintained at source and has large/complex dependency trees. For these reasons we decided to focus on relatively stable packages which have sane dependency graphs. Other packages may be maintained, but outside the official repositories. We will only maintain what members of the Debian/Ubuntu Zope team use, focusing on automatic testing to provide the high quality standards. As of today, these are the packages supported by the team: - transaction - zc.lockfile - ZConfig - zdaemon - ZODB3 - zope.authentication - zope.browser - zope.cachedescriptors - zope.component - zope.configuration - zope.dottedname - zope.event - zope.exceptions - zope.hookable - zope.i18nmessageid - zope.interface - zope.location - zope.proxy - zope.publisher - zope.schema - zope.security - zope.testbrowser - zope.testing - zope.traversing The aforementioned policy is also available from the team web page: http://pkg-zope.alioth.debian.org. Comments and suggestions are welcome! Zope 2 and Plone Zope 2 and Plone are obviously related, so the future of one of the two influences the other one. The main problem for Zope2 is that the current stable upstream branch (2.12) still requires pthon2.4. This is not acceptable in Debian and Ubuntu, and Zope 2 is right now the only stopper for the removal of python2.4 from both Debian and Ubuntu. Even worse, the current stable Plone releases requires Zope 2.10, which we suppose will never support anything but python2.4 in the foreseeable future. The new major upstream branch (Plone 4) is still far from being released, which means that the only way to support Plone and Zope 2.x in Debian and Ubuntu is to keep python2.4 in the distribution. For this reason, together with the upstream suggestions to use the unified installer and zc.buildout as primary tools for deploying Zope 2 and Plone, the Debian/Ubuntu Zope Team decided to drop support for Zope 2, Plone and all the other Zope 2 products. We will file requests of removal for all the Zope and Plone packages from the archive. Thanks for reading this! Fabio Tranchitella on behalf of the Debian/Ubuntu Zope Team -- Fabio Tranchitella kob...@debian.org.''`. Proud Debian GNU/Linux developer, admin and user.: :' : `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~kobold/ `-
Re: [kob...@debian.org: The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu]
I'm sad to see Plone support go, as I have a lot of reservations about how Plone is distributed these days. The suggested upstream way to install plone, for example, is the unified installer. ZTK developers suggest the use of zc.buildout. These tools create an isolated environment where it is possible to develop and run your software with a very limited interactions with the rest of the system. Buildout is really a development tool and not universally lauded as a deployment solution (though it's ubiquitous right now simply because it's the only thing that works). It suffers many reliability issues in both its design and its execution that make it unsuitable for our production environments, and it routinely confounds new users with the very build system concept, with its config syntax, and with its opaque modes of failure. Its goal of isolation from the base system is also both a strength and weakness: at some point, it either has to admit a dependency on system libraries (e.g. PIL) or else become a (less mature) package management system in its own right. By bundling zipped copies of the necessary packages and not exposing buildout's config file during installation, Steve McMahon has done an incredible job making the Unified Installer approachable and reliable for initial installs, but one is still left with raw buildout for updates and managing third-party add-ons. For years, I've enjoyed and admired your packages as a refreshingly mature alternative. Leveraging Debian's superior QA and aptitude's fail-safety, they have been the most dependable solution for the unattended deployments that comprise WebLion's Plone hosting service. We will certainly miss your excellent work! Zope 2 and Plone are obviously related, so the future of one of the two influences the other one. The main problem for Zope2 is that the current stable upstream branch (2.12) still requires pthon2.4. Actually not; it works in 2.5 and 2.6. 2.4 is unsupported by 2.12, though it should work. http://docs.zope.org/zope2/releases/2.12/WHATSNEW.html#support-for-newer-python-versions This is not acceptable in Debian and Ubuntu, and Zope 2 is right now the only stopper for the removal of python2.4 from both Debian and Ubuntu. Even worse, the current stable Plone releases requires Zope 2.10, which we suppose will never support anything but python2.4 in the foreseeable future. The new major upstream branch (Plone 4) is still far from being released, which means that the only way to support Plone and Zope 2.x in Debian and Ubuntu is to keep python2.4 in the distribution. Were you aware that we've renumbered the releases and inserted a less ambitious Plone 4, which should be in beta by the end of the year? It will run on (and require) Zope 2.12. Plone is finally joining the modern Python world. :-) Best, Erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Fabio Tranchitella wrote:
Zope 2 and Plone
Zope 2 and Plone are obviously related, so the future of one of the two
influences the other one.
The main problem for Zope2 is that the current stable upstream branch
(2.12) still requires python2.4.
Incorrect: Zope 2.12 is supported only on Python 2.5 / 2.6. The
INSTALL.rst[1] file says:
Prerequisites
-
System requirements when building from source
- A supported version of Python, including the development support if
installed from system-level packages. Supported versions include:
* 2.5.x, (x = 4)
* 2.6.x
- Zope needs the Python ``zlib`` module to be importable. If you are
building your own Python from source, please be sure that you have
the headers installed which correspond to your system's ``zlib``.
- A C compiler capable of building extension modules for your Python
(gcc recommended).
This is not acceptable in Debian and
Ubuntu, and Zope 2 is right now the only stopper for the removal of
python2.4 from both Debian and Ubuntu.
Even worse, the current stable Plone releases requires Zope 2.10, which we
suppose will never support anything but python2.4 in the foreseeable
future. The new major upstream branch (Plone 4) is still far from being
released, which means
that the only way to support Plone and Zope 2.x in Debian and Ubuntu is to
keep python2.4 in the distribution.
Plone 4.0 is slated be released this year, with an explicit goal of
running on Zope 2.12 / Python 2.{5,6}][1].
For this reason, together with the upstream suggestions to use the unified
installer and zc.buildout as primary tools for deploying Zope 2 and Plone,
the Debian/Ubuntu Zope Team decided to drop support for Zope 2, Plone and
all the other Zope 2 products. We will file requests of removal for all the
Zope and Plone packages from the archive.
In the short term, I would just update the existing packages to use
Python 2.5, which is known to work with Zope 2.10.
[1] http://svn.zope.org/Zope/branches/2.12/doc/INSTALL.rst?view=auto
[2] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.zope.plone.teams.framework/2767
Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFKQTj2+gerLs4ltQ4RAksHAJoDgFLtBHjATSgNhIstWOjWeHSuAgCfevxM
v0hySbVNf1nbrL8GzyBqKcU=
=w/ik
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: The future of Zope{2,3} and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:15:12 +0200, Fabio Tranchitella wrote: Hello all! In the last couple of weeks Brian Sutherland, Matthias Klose and I worked together to improve the Zope packaging for Debian and Ubuntu. This e-mail summarizes the problems we faced, the decisions that have been taken and the changes that we will upload to experimental and unstable in the next weeks. Short summary = We switch from a monolithic Zope 3 package to individual packages for the libraries that are part of the ZTK (Zope Toolkit). Zope instance management tools are not supported anymore, as we suggest the use of WSGI. We also drop support for Zope 2 and Plone in Debian and Ubuntu, asking for the removal of the packages from the distribution. I am certainly one person that did use the Debian packages at the time when people first started to suggest against it. I dropped this habit when I needed to work most of the time with custom Zope and Plone versions that were too new or too rare to be in Debian yet. But I'm still using Debian's python2.4 right now to bootstrap my buildouts. The main problem for Zope2 is that the current stable upstream branch (2.12) still requires pthon2.4. This is not acceptable in Debian and Ubuntu, and Zope 2 is right now the only stopper for the removal of python2.4 from both Debian and Ubuntu. What's the reason for the removal of python2.4? Is there a technological reason, or is this a policy decision? Don't forget that Plone users, who are also the biggest consumer group of Zope / ZTK, still will be users of 2.4 for a while. The unified installer is not the only installation method used for Plone, in fact many users and the majority of deployments use python + buildout. These users will need to read documentation and do installation to be able to bootstrap their buildout, which is not exactly a reason for them to choose Debian / Ubuntu in this case. -- Balazs Ree -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
