Debian v9 it's a stretch

[tony mollica]

Been off the mailing list for a short time but I found something that's 
probably common knowledge by now, but I'll post it anyway.


After a fresh install of Stretch my networking, especially my wifi 
networking, took a turn for the worse, neither NM nor wicd working to 
any degree of connection reliablility.  There were some other problems, 
too.


Aftera another fresh install to a new hdd with all the mods I like in 
place (nvidia) and a new motherboard, processor (4.5Ghz FX) and video 
the network problems persist.  BUT, found one email to a list that 
indicated the problem was likely the persistent network naming being 
incompatible (read 'names too long') with some of the firmware/drivers, 
especially for USB wifi adapters.


Killed the persistent network interface naming and all the network stuff 
now works perfectly.


If the 'old' naming conventions are going away with Debian 10 then maybe 
someone should let the driver folks know this, if not already.


tjm

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 09/15/2017 08:31 AM, Fungi4All wrote:

From: field.engin...@gmail.com
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org

On 09/11/2017 02:27 PM, Fungi4All wrote:

From: a...@cityscape.co.uk
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org



You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
Does it answer anything.
Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?


No, but there are similarities.
They are both systems, one is for transportation the other for communication..



Now do you see the resemblance?


My, you are a throwback from UseNet aren"t you? You know many of those
people are crazy don"t you? Even to the point of committing suicide
while online..I could no longer read that stuff, please don"t bring it here.


I can hardly make sense of what you mean and to whom you are talking to.
If my criticism on the motives to defend systemd after all the revelations 
about it
could drive crazy people to commit suicide, imagine if they designed bio-warfare
weapons.  At least the later admit on getting paid by "someone".


Jimmy Johnson


What is your relationship to Debian, and why are you here again?


Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda1
Registered Linux User #380263


Maybe if I had 6 more cores my Debian wouldn't take for ever to start
and shutdown.  Do you think I should run ubuntu?  Give us a break!



Sorry but it seems you are already broken and I can not help you plus 
this is not our first conversation and you know I'm on list, so please 
don't send post directly to me.


Thank you,
--
Jimmy Johnson
What ever Linux Operating System I want to Run..
Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda1
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Fungi4All]

> From: field.engin...@gmail.com
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> On 09/11/2017 02:27 PM, Fungi4All wrote:
>>> From: a...@cityscape.co.uk
>>> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
>>> You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
>>> Does it answer anything.
>>> Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?
>>
>> No, but there are similarities.
>> They are both systems, one is for transportation the other for 
>> communication..
>
>> Now do you see the resemblance?
>
> My, you are a throwback from UseNet aren"t you? You know many of those
> people are crazy don"t you? Even to the point of committing suicide
> while online..I could no longer read that stuff, please don"t bring it here.

I can hardly make sense of what you mean and to whom you are talking to.
If my criticism on the motives to defend systemd after all the revelations 
about it
could drive crazy people to commit suicide, imagine if they designed bio-warfare
weapons.  At least the later admit on getting paid by "someone".

> Jimmy Johnson

What is your relationship to Debian, and why are you here again?

> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda1
> Registered Linux User #380263

Maybe if I had 6 more cores my Debian wouldn't take for ever to start
and shutdown.  Do you think I should run ubuntu?  Give us a break!

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 09/11/2017 02:27 PM, Fungi4All wrote:

From: a...@cityscape.co.uk
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org



You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
Does it answer anything.
Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?


No, but there are similarities.
They are both systems, one is for transportation the other for communication..



Now do you see the resemblance?



My, you are a throwback from UseNet aren't you?  You know many of those 
people are crazy don't you?  Even to the point of committing suicide 
while online..I could no longer read that stuff, please don't bring it here.


Thanks,
--
Jimmy Johnson

Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda1
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Fungi4All]

> From: to...@tuxteam.de
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> You"re getting the same welcome package
> and a handsome weekly check of $ 0, as we all are getting. No trial period.

I like to see the fine print, of what I can and can not say.

> You"re hired, *NOW*

Who!  Who is hiring?

>> Now do you see the resemblance?
>
> Hmmm.

The Chevy salesman has known and specific interests to protect
defending the choice to put a half ton engine behind the rear axle.
With debian I can only suspect by logical deduction why would
systemd me so ferociously defended, by hired experts.
I guess I would have to get hired to explain it to myself.

PS  To Dell, HP, Toshiba, ..etc:  Please send a personal note
so I can forward you the shipping address for evaluating new
server models and my consulting fee schedule for installing your
systems.  No, I will not use Gentoo, don't worry!

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 05:27:05PM -0400, Fungi4All wrote:

[...]

> The customer support (this list/or the Chevy sales dept) have the same nasty
> attitude.  Every time the customer complains of something the "experts" 
> instead
> of trying to see [...]

Then become an expert yourself. You're getting the same welcome package
and a handsome weekly check of $ 0, as we all are getting. No trial period.

You're hired, *NOW*

> Now do you see the resemblance?

Hmmm.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlm3jmYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYHawCeKJXqUvycY1+SeVCeSHKltv4v
WLoAni9xnZAKkiFGUqKgj76xGbTUi29+
=lunu
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Fungi4All]

> From: a...@cityscape.co.uk
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> On Wed 06 Sep 2017 at 14:29:35 -0400, Fungi4All wrote:
>
>> - Hello,
>> Is this the Chevrolet users" support group?
>> I just bought this new Chevy and I am having all kinds of problems I"ve 
>> never had before with a Chevy or any other car for that matter.
>> - What problems are you having, because all other owners are happy.
>> - Pretty much anything I was used to do is not working or ends up in an 
>> error.
>> - Are you sure it is a Chevy and not an immitation?
>> - Yes I am sure, it is the all new Chevy Corvair, I was told it is the 
>> world"s safest car at any speed, even parked in the garage.
>> - But you haven"t mentioned what problem you are having.
>> - Well, for one, when I hit the brakes hard I end up looking face to face 
>> with the truck that was half a mile behind me.
>> - What brake pads did you install?
>> - I didn"t change any brake pads, it is new I tell you!
>> - Well, that"s why, you haven"t changed the pads.
>> - What about going around a fast corner and the car steers all by itself?
>> - You shouldn"t be going so fast around a bumpy corner.
>> - When I hit the gas on the rain the car keeps going straight, even with the 
>> wheel turned.
>> - Why are you hitting the gas with the wheel turned, you should only use it 
>> when going straight.
>> - That"s OK, I"ll trade it in for a Ford, I hear people dying in these 
>> Corvairs.
>
> You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
> Does it answer anything.
> Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?

No, but there are similarities.
They are both systems, one is for transportation the other for communication,
which are relatives to each other.  The one developed to relieve the pain of 
the first.

They are both vehicles.  The later was used for systemd to dominate an industry.

They are/were marketed to the wrong market.  The corvair was not a bad car,
just wasn't meant for people who didn't understand it as being different.  It
was like a Karman-Ghia but with deadlier potential.  And that wasn't presented 
as
a warning at the time of marriage.  If you don't know what you are doing you 
should
either leave everything else you are doing in life and learn or you are going 
to crash.
Debian too, is developing with the market of enterprise in its secret mind, but 
allowed
people to believe that it is a system for single user personal computing.  
WRONG!

The customer support (this list/or the Chevy sales dept) have the same nasty
attitude.  Every time the customer complains of something the "experts" instead
of trying to see what the problem really is they are trying to locate unique
individual excuses of what the customer did wrong with their fine product.
At least the ones that survived to ask a question get this treatment.

Whether you have a new pc or an old pc it makes no difference.
"It is unsafe at any speed"

Now do you see the resemblance?

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Mark Fletcher]

On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 08:12:21AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 07:57:58AM +0900, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> > That's fascinating because I found the opposite -- my circa-2009 
> > self-built Intel Core i7 920-based machine surged ahead when I upgraded 
> > from jessie to stretch -- really felt like everything was that little 
> > bit more alive. I'd had no complaints about jessie performance but 
> > suddenly everything was that bit nippier.
> 
> Video drivers, most likely.  Jessie's X used an "intel" driver for
> Intel graphics chipsets, whereas stretch's X uses a "modeset" driver.
> 
> Notoriously in jessie, some of the newer Intel chipsets actually needed
> (or greatly wanted) a backported stretch xserver-xorg-video-intel
> package for proper performance.  (Your older machine may or may not be
> one of these.)
> 

Did wonder about video drivers -- but the video hardware is nVidia here 
and the driver in use was and is the proprietary nVidia driver. Albeit 
now the "legacy" one, as the card is old -- the transition to which 
briefly gave me the willies when I migrated from jessie to stretch; a 
while back I made a thread here about that, all long since sorted out 
now.

I famously have never been able to get the nouveau drivers working at 
all. A looong time ago, there was a period where the nVidia proprietary 
driver was not very stable with my chipset, or at least the combination 
of the nVidia driver and Gnome 3 was toxic, and I tried nouveau then 
with no success. I tried again a bit later as an experiment to see if I 
could get away from proprietary code -- no dice. I gave up at that point 
as by then the nVidia driver was both faster and stable. Since then, 
touch wood, it has been solid and performant.

I reckon you are right that the improvement I saw is most likely to come 
from video driver improvements somehow, but that means an improvement 
between the nVidia driver version in Jessie and the legacy video driver 
version in stretch.

Anyway whatever it is, that's not going to stop me giving Debian in 
general credit for the improvement! Me like!

Mark

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[tony mollica]

When I started this particular thread I was just interested in whether 
or not anyone else was experiencing similar performance issues, video, 
network or otherwise.  The answer is clearly, yes.


I like the rather long winded, not-really-to-the-point Chevrolet 
comparison.  Especially since I'm a certified Master Automotive Tech and 
the Chevy problem would have been fixed, if not re-engineered, to 
anyone's satisfaction in short order.  But as was mentioned, we're not 
working on Chevies.


I can browse through the logs on occasion looking for problems or 
inconsistencies and so far found none that match up with odd and 
annoying performance or configuration issues.  I'm also not a developer 
and have limited time to do this sort of stuff.  I've always used Debian 
(from Hamm) and never had issues that I couldn't resolve, until Stretch, 
and thought it was worth mentioning.  Maybe I posted incorrectly. 
Should've gone in the Let's Kill the Messenger thread.




Video drivers, most likely.  Jessie's X used an "intel" driver for
Intel graphics chipsets, whereas stretch's X uses a "modeset" driver.



Video, maybe, probably.  I've always used the proprietary drivers 
(Nvidia) thinking that the company engineers probably have better info 
to do so than others writing code with half the information.  Nvidia 
drivers have alway operated flawlessly for me.  Why not now?


tjm

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 07:57:58AM +0900, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> That's fascinating because I found the opposite -- my circa-2009 
> self-built Intel Core i7 920-based machine surged ahead when I upgraded 
> from jessie to stretch -- really felt like everything was that little 
> bit more alive. I'd had no complaints about jessie performance but 
> suddenly everything was that bit nippier.

Video drivers, most likely.  Jessie's X used an "intel" driver for
Intel graphics chipsets, whereas stretch's X uses a "modeset" driver.

Notoriously in jessie, some of the newer Intel chipsets actually needed
(or greatly wanted) a backported stretch xserver-xorg-video-intel
package for proper performance.  (Your older machine may or may not be
one of these.)

Some older Intel chipsets perform very well under the new modeset driver
without adding any firmware packages.  I am guessing yours is one
of these.

Some newer Intel chipsets perform very well after you install the
correct non-free firmware package for them.  Without that firmware,
they will perform very poorly, to the point where you might actually
consider reverting to the intel driver, if your personal philosophy
is not to install non-free firmware.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Ben Finney]

Borden Rhodes  writes:

> You can't say that something is a stable upgrade from the previous
> version and then be surprised that users are annoyed when they find it
> isn't.

When annoyed users are unable or unwilling – and I make no judgement
here, in what we've seen described in this thread, about which of those
is the cause – to describe problems sufficiently for the problem to be
identified as a bug?

Yes, in that circumstance the developers are justified in saying that
the package has no reported bugs that prevent its release in a stable
Debian.

That is not a claim that problems don't exist. It is not a claim the
developers believe no problems exist; most developers are not silly
enough to think that no bugs reported is the same as no bugs. Quite the
contrary.

It means, though, that users who are annoyed must *describe the problems
in bug reports*, in sufficient specific detail to investigate, if they
expect the problems to be addressed.

While the problem is only evident to people who don't describe the
problems in sufficient detail for them to be investigated, those
problems can be expected to persist.

> I use open source software appreciating that I'm part of an experiment
> where I'll be on my own if something goes wrong.

Not at all! You are part of a large community when something goes wrong.
The barrier to investigating such problems is *lower* than with
proprietary software.

Unlike proprietary software, free software removes artificial barriers
erected against the community of users properly investigating a problem
and offering improved versions of the software to solve it.

> If the marketing and community stuck to that message, you'd get fewer
> complaints because you can say 'You knew what you were getting into.'

I'm glad that message is not promulgated further. It is a false message.

Instead, the message is: You have a community of peers that could not
exist without software freedom. Problems exist in any software; but,
unlike proprietary software, the community around this free software *is
permitted* to investigate problems. So, to the extent they are described
precisely and reproducibly, the community can help much more than with
proprietary software.

> I found it refreshing when someone said 'if you want your hand held,
> go some place else', because was an honest reflection of the facts and
> his ability to provide support.

I hope no one comes to any software *merely* wanting their hand held.

Also, the person who told you that was not saying anything I believe
about this community.

> So, yes, it answers how you reduce complaints from frustrated users:
> don't oversell your software in the first place.

I agree with that sentiment.

I disagree that the software has been oversold in any of the cases
described in this thread.

-- 
 \   “The fundamental principle of science, the definition almost, |
  `\ is this: the sole test of the validity of any idea is |
_o__) experiment.” —Richard P. Feynman |
Ben Finney

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Borden Rhodes]

>> -  Hello,
>> Is this the Chevrolet users' support group?
>> I just bought this new Chevy and I am having all kinds of problems I've 
>> never had before with a Chevy or any other car for that matter.
>> -  What problems are you having, because all other owners are happy.
>> -  Pretty much anything I was used to do is not working or ends up in an 
>> error.
>> -  Are you sure it is a Chevy and not an immitation?
>> -  Yes I am sure, it is the all new Chevy Corvair, I was told it is the 
>> world's safest car at any speed, even parked in the garage.
>> -  But you haven't mentioned what problem you are having.
>> -  Well, for one, when I hit the brakes hard I end up looking face to face 
>> with the truck that was half a mile behind me.
>> -  What brake pads did you install?
>> -  I didn't change any brake pads, it is new I tell you!
>> -  Well, that's why, you haven't changed the pads.
>> -  What about going around a fast corner and the car steers all by itself?
>> -  You shouldn't be going so fast around a bumpy corner.
>> -  When I hit the gas on the rain the car keeps going straight, even with 
>> the wheel turned.
>> -  Why are you hitting the gas with the wheel turned, you should only use it 
>> when going straight.
>> -  That's OK, I'll trade it in for a Ford, I hear people dying in these 
>> Corvairs.
>
> You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
>
> Does it answer anything.
I think it addresses an important issue. I know developers are proud
of their code in the same way that parents are proud of their children
and artists are proud of their paintings. A lot of work goes into it.
The trouble is when it's oversold and fails to live up to its
advertising. You can't say that something is a stable upgrade from the
previous version and then be surprised that users are annoyed when
they find it isn't.

I use open source software appreciating that I'm part of an experiment
where I'll be on my own if something goes wrong. If the marketing and
community stuck to that message, you'd get fewer complaints because
you can say 'You knew what you were getting into.' I found it
refreshing when someone said 'if you want your hand held, go some
place else', because was an honest reflection of the facts and his
ability to provide support.

So, yes, it answers how you reduce complaints from frustrated users:
don't oversell your software in the first place.

> Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?
No, it is not, but physical machines and software machines share a lot
of similarities, hence the analogy.

> That probably doesn't help you much, but let the record show that
> stretch does work great for at least some people...
True, and perhaps the press release should have reflected that: "The
Debian community is proud to release version 9 of our operating
system, codename Stretch. It should would great for at least some
people!"

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Gary Roach]

On 08/21/2017 06:00 PM, Ben Finney wrote:

Borden Rhodes  writes:

Interesting. I have 3 machines running Stretch. I originally went from
Wheezy stable to Stretch Testing and let Stretch slide back into stable.
I have had absolutely no problems with stability or speed. Although I do 
find that there are certain packages that are missing from Stretch.




I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using.


My reply was primarily addressing that statement: you were surprised
that Stretch, with the problems you describe, was released.


Borden Rhodes  writes:


Thank you for your response, Ben,


What response did you get to the bug reports you filed from the
problems you encountered?


One example includes an X regression […] To my knowledge, it's still
broken in testing […] (#863532).


Thanks. Do you have an understanding, from that discussion, why that
specific bug remained unresolved in Stretch?



Then there are the issues with the upgrade to KDE 5, which aren't
Debian's fault […] These are all upstream bugs that I've tried to
report.


Are there bug reports in Debian that would show why the package should
not be released with those bugs?


Ironically, both reportbug and reportbug-ng are broken on my system!
The former's GTK interface doesn't load


Sorry to learn that. Does the text-only interface work well enough to
report bugs?


I also ran into an issue […] I just uninstalled them and continued on.


I think you can see from that, why the Debian release team can't be
expected to know that a package is unsuitable for release, if people's
experience with a bug are not recorded in a bug report :-)

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Mark Fletcher]

On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 09:18:04AM -0700, tony mollica wrote:
> It's time.  Can't stand it any longer so Jessie to get reinstalled.
> 
> This fresh install of Stretch has given me network problems, slow display to
> the point of having to wait for a mouse click or wheel movement to take
> effect along with some other less important changes that needed to be
> disabled, bypassed or otherwise massaged to work. Comparatively, Jessie was
> blazingly fast and problem free on the exact same hardware and I don't find
> any indications of what's holding up the show.  Everything just runs slower.
> I've been using Debian since Hamm and never had issues like this.  Up to
> this point every release has been an improvement.
> Stepping back.
> 

That's fascinating because I found the opposite -- my circa-2009 
self-built Intel Core i7 920-based machine surged ahead when I upgraded 
from jessie to stretch -- really felt like everything was that little 
bit more alive. I'd had no complaints about jessie performance but 
suddenly everything was that bit nippier.

I use Gnome if that is anything to do with anything. I also have a 
decent loadout of RAM -- 24GB -- and I have no metrics of how much 
memory OS is using for example, between jessie and stretch. Perhaps that 
is a factor.

This installation, when it was jessie, was itself an upgrade from 
wheezy, so not a particularly clean install. I've been a Debian user 
since 1995, I built this machine in 2009 and installed whichever came 
first of etch and squeeze on it. When wheezy was testing, I did a 
re-install, possibly after a disk failure following the 2011 Great Kanto 
Earthquake which one of my hard disks didn't enjoy, and then wheezy got 
upgraded to jessie when jessie was testing, then I sat on jessie until 
stretch became stable.

Sure I had some small issues with the upgrade, but in general they were 
relatively minor compared to the "good old days" and as I say, 
performance over here is great.

That probably doesn't help you much, but let the record show that 
stretch does work great for at least some people...

Mark

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Brian]

On Wed 06 Sep 2017 at 14:29:35 -0400, Fungi4All wrote:

> -  Hello,
> Is this the Chevrolet users' support group?
> I just bought this new Chevy and I am having all kinds of problems I've never 
> had before with a Chevy or any other car for that matter.
> -  What problems are you having, because all other owners are happy.
> -  Pretty much anything I was used to do is not working or ends up in an 
> error.
> -  Are you sure it is a Chevy and not an immitation?
> -  Yes I am sure, it is the all new Chevy Corvair, I was told it is the 
> world's safest car at any speed, even parked in the garage.
> -  But you haven't mentioned what problem you are having.
> -  Well, for one, when I hit the brakes hard I end up looking face to face 
> with the truck that was half a mile behind me.
> -  What brake pads did you install?
> -  I didn't change any brake pads, it is new I tell you!
> -  Well, that's why, you haven't changed the pads.
> -  What about going around a fast corner and the car steers all by itself?
> -  You shouldn't be going so fast around a bumpy corner.
> -  When I hit the gas on the rain the car keeps going straight, even with the 
> wheel turned.
> -  Why are you hitting the gas with the wheel turned, you should only use it 
> when going straight.
> -  That's OK, I'll trade it in for a Ford, I hear people dying in these 
> Corvairs.

You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.

Does it answer anything.

Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Ben Finney]

tony mollica  writes:

> This fresh install of Stretch has given me network problems, slow
> display to the point of having to wait for a mouse click or wheel
> movement to take effect along with some other less important changes
> that needed to be disabled, bypassed or otherwise massaged to work.

Which are the bug reports in the Debian BTS that describe these problems
specifically?

Since you're able to describe them, presumably you want them to be
investigated and fixed.

> Comparatively, Jessie was blazingly fast and problem free on the exact
> same hardware and I don't find any indications of what's holding up
> the show.

To allow the maintainers of the specific Debian packages that you find
to be slow, to investigate the problem to find the fault, you (as the
only person with first-hand experience of these particular problems)
need to describe the specifics in bug reports to the Debian BTS.

-- 
 \ “Try to become not a man of success, but try rather to become a |
  `\   man of value.” —Albert Einstein |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Fungi4All]

-  Hello,
Is this the Chevrolet users' support group?
I just bought this new Chevy and I am having all kinds of problems I've never 
had before with a Chevy or any other car for that matter.
-  What problems are you having, because all other owners are happy.
-  Pretty much anything I was used to do is not working or ends up in an error.
-  Are you sure it is a Chevy and not an immitation?
-  Yes I am sure, it is the all new Chevy Corvair, I was told it is the world's 
safest car at any speed, even parked in the garage.
-  But you haven't mentioned what problem you are having.
-  Well, for one, when I hit the brakes hard I end up looking face to face with 
the truck that was half a mile behind me.
-  What brake pads did you install?
-  I didn't change any brake pads, it is new I tell you!
-  Well, that's why, you haven't changed the pads.
-  What about going around a fast corner and the car steers all by itself?
-  You shouldn't be going so fast around a bumpy corner.
-  When I hit the gas on the rain the car keeps going straight, even with the 
wheel turned.
-  Why are you hitting the gas with the wheel turned, you should only use it 
when going straight.
-  That's OK, I'll trade it in for a Ford, I hear people dying in these 
Corvairs.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 09:18:04AM -0700, tony mollica wrote:
> This fresh install of Stretch has given me network problems, slow display to
> the point of having to wait for a mouse click or wheel movement to take
> effect [...]

Sounds like video drivers and firmware, again.

The Linux kernel philosophy (modesetting) seems to be directly at odds
with the Debian philosophy (don't ship non-free firmware by default).

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[tony mollica]

It's time.  Can't stand it any longer so Jessie to get reinstalled.

This fresh install of Stretch has given me network problems, slow 
display to the point of having to wait for a mouse click or wheel 
movement to take effect along with some other less important changes 
that needed to be disabled, bypassed or otherwise massaged to work. 
Comparatively, Jessie was blazingly fast and problem free on the exact 
same hardware and I don't find any indications of what's holding up the 
show.  Everything just runs slower.  I've been using Debian since Hamm 
and never had issues like this.  Up to this point every release has been 
an improvement.

Stepping back.

tjm

On 08/21/2017 03:53 PM, tony mollica wrote:
Thanks for the replies.  I'll maybe try another clean install and see 
what happens.




On 08/21/2017 01:06 PM, Borden Rhodes wrote:

Hey Tony,

I had lots of problems with Stretch when it was in testing. A lot of
packages (KDE, X drivers, and the kernel come immediately to mind)
have manageable but irritating upstream regressions that didn't get
patched or backported in time for the release.

I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using. Therefore, I've
stayed on the testing branch where many of the problems are slowly
getting fixed.

In terms of stability, I think Debian is one of the better distros
you'll get. Other distros achieve greater stability but suffer from
MacOS syndrome: the distro works only if you stick to the limited set
of features explicitly designed into the distro. There are
fixed-release-cycle distros like Ubuntu that seem to be perpetually
broken - you report a bug in a release and get told it'll be fixed in
the next release six months from now. Assuming that it's fixed in the
next release, you have a whole new set of bugs to deal with, and the
cycle continues.

In my 13 years of Linux experience, I keep coming back to Debian. It's
not perfect, but it hasn't ruined my life... yet.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2017-08-27, Mario Castelán Castro  wrote:
> On 26/08/17 20:36, Liam O'Toole wrote:
>> On 2017-08-25, Borden Rhodes  wrote:
>>> I encourage everyone to check out "How to Irritate People salesmen" on=
>
>>> your favourite community video streaming site. That's how I've found
>>> FOSS support: "Best software in the world. No problems at all. But if
>>> you find a problem, file a bug and we'll fix it." "Well I have filed a=
>
>>> bug, and you haven't fixed it." "Nope, no problems with this software
>>> at all..."
>>=20
>> And you have never encountered that attitude with proprietary software
>> vendors? Ever?
>>=20
>> The difference with FLOSS is that you can fix any problems yourself. Or=
>
>> persuade or pay someone else to do it for you. The choice is yours.
>
> There are plenty of sites where asking stupid question about free
> software programs is the norm, and you are not allowed to admonish users
> for not knowing what they must already know (very often it has a section
> in the manual about it). The most popular one is probably stackexchange.
>
> For example, I mean questions like: =E2=80=9CI am the manager of a nuclea=
> r power
> plant. The engineers are telling me that we are having a loss of coolant
> and core meltdown, what does that mean? Is it dangerous?=E2=80=9D
>
> If you want to go spoonfeed, then go to one of those sites.

Thanks for the suggestion. I hope you won't be offended as I blithely
ignore it.

-- 

Liam

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 26/08/17 20:36, Liam O'Toole wrote:
> On 2017-08-25, Borden Rhodes  wrote:
>> I encourage everyone to check out "How to Irritate People salesmen" on
>> your favourite community video streaming site. That's how I've found
>> FOSS support: "Best software in the world. No problems at all. But if
>> you find a problem, file a bug and we'll fix it." "Well I have filed a
>> bug, and you haven't fixed it." "Nope, no problems with this software
>> at all..."
> 
> And you have never encountered that attitude with proprietary software
> vendors? Ever?
> 
> The difference with FLOSS is that you can fix any problems yourself. Or
> persuade or pay someone else to do it for you. The choice is yours.

There are plenty of sites where asking stupid question about free
software programs is the norm, and you are not allowed to admonish users
for not knowing what they must already know (very often it has a section
in the manual about it). The most popular one is probably stackexchange.

For example, I mean questions like: “I am the manager of a nuclear power
plant. The engineers are telling me that we are having a loss of coolant
and core meltdown, what does that mean? Is it dangerous?”

If you want to go spoonfeed, then go to one of those sites.

-- 
Do not eat animals, respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2017-08-25, Borden Rhodes  wrote:

(...)

> I encourage everyone to check out "How to Irritate People salesmen" on
> your favourite community video streaming site. That's how I've found
> FOSS support: "Best software in the world. No problems at all. But if
> you find a problem, file a bug and we'll fix it." "Well I have filed a
> bug, and you haven't fixed it." "Nope, no problems with this software
> at all..."

And you have never encountered that attitude with proprietary software
vendors? Ever?

The difference with FLOSS is that you can fix any problems yourself. Or
persuade or pay someone else to do it for you. The choice is yours.

-- 

Liam

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Curt]

On 2017-08-24, Dejan Jocic  wrote:
>> > 
>> > Do you find checking for possible rootkits is useless, or you are just
>> > not happy how rkhunter performs that function?
>> 
>> A well-documented case of rkhunter discovering a rootkit in the last
>> ten years (the 1000s of false positives do not count) would go a long
>> way to establishing its credence,
>> 
>
> So, those in security/forensics who recommend use of rkhunter have just
> been silly? Interesting. But think that I'll use it anyway, just to be
> on the safe side. It does not hurt.
>

The validity of a statement should be judged by its evidence, not its
source.

Of course, an appeal to authority without citing the authoritative
source to which one appeals is unlikely to convince anyone but some poor
sap already convinced in the first place.

This way, we can all settle back into the comfortable armchairs of our
preconceived convictions.

Thank you for a pause that refreshes.


-- 
Only the coward who has more fear of death than dignity can comfort himself 
with the fact that
his body will in time live again in the grass, in the stones, in the toad. To 
find one's
immortality in the transmutation of substances is as strange as to prophesy a 
brilliant future
for the case after a precious violin has been broken and becomes useless. — 
"Ward 6"

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Ben Finney]

Borden Rhodes  writes:

> To answer an earlier question about why I don't report all the bugs I
> find in software: I choose my battles.

I don't recall anyone asking why you don't report all bugs you find in
software, that would be a fatuous question.

You were asked specifically about the bugs in Debian Stretch that you
encountered and you said you were surprised Stretch was released with
those bugs not fixed.

The question is not why you don't report all bugs. The question is, if
there are bugs you ahven't reported in time for them to be investigated
prior to release, how can you claim surprise when they aren't fixed in
time for release?

-- 
 \  “Courage is not the absence of fear, but the decision that |
  `\ something else is more important than fear.” —Ambrose Redmoon |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Borden Rhodes]

>> > Do you find checking for possible rootkits is useless, or you are just
>> > not happy how rkhunter performs that function?
>>
>> A well-documented case of rkhunter discovering a rootkit in the last
>> ten years (the 1000s of false positives do not count) would go a long
>> way to establishing its credence,
>>
>
> So, those in security/forensics who recommend use of rkhunter have just
> been silly? Interesting. But think that I'll use it anyway, just to be
> on the safe side. It does not hurt.

Ahh, that's what I love about FOSS software. Most bugs are 'closed' by
saying 'That package is garbage, don't use it'. It's like when you go
to a store and the salesperson says 'Buy this brand. That brand is
garbage.' I always wonder 'Well why are you selling it, then, if
nobody should buy it?!'

I encourage everyone to check out "How to Irritate People salesmen" on
your favourite community video streaming site. That's how I've found
FOSS support: "Best software in the world. No problems at all. But if
you find a problem, file a bug and we'll fix it." "Well I have filed a
bug, and you haven't fixed it." "Nope, no problems with this software
at all..."

To answer an earlier question about why I don't report all the bugs I
find in software: I choose my battles. Some bugs are easier to work
around than others, so I stick to reporting the ones that I can write
solid reports on that have a chance of being fixed.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Dejan Jocic]

On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:56:51 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> 
> > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:31:55 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > > > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:16:26 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > > > > > > The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > You could make a start by purging it from your system. It 
> > > > > > > performs no
> > > > > > > useful function.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > > Brian.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Could you explain that bit more, please?
> > > > > 
> > > > > apt-get purge rkhunter. Enough?
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > No, not really. Why do you think that rkhunter is useless?
> > > 
> > > It does not anything of consequence.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Brian
> > > 
> > 
> > Do you find checking for possible rootkits is useless, or you are just
> > not happy how rkhunter performs that function?
> 
> A well-documented case of rkhunter discovering a rootkit in the last
> ten years (the 1000s of false positives do not count) would go a long
> way to establishing its credence,
> 

So, those in security/forensics who recommend use of rkhunter have just
been silly? Interesting. But think that I'll use it anyway, just to be
on the safe side. It does not hurt.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Brian]

On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:56:51 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:

> On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:31:55 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> > 
> > > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:16:26 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > > > > > The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You could make a start by purging it from your system. It performs 
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > useful function.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > Brian.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Could you explain that bit more, please?
> > > > 
> > > > apt-get purge rkhunter. Enough?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > No, not really. Why do you think that rkhunter is useless?
> > 
> > It does not anything of consequence.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Brian
> > 
> 
> Do you find checking for possible rootkits is useless, or you are just
> not happy how rkhunter performs that function?

A well-documented case of rkhunter discovering a rootkit in the last
ten years (the 1000s of false positives do not count) would go a long
way to establishing its credence,

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Dejan Jocic]

On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:31:55 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> 
> > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:16:26 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > > > > The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You could make a start by purging it from your system. It performs no
> > > > > useful function.
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- 
> > > > > Brian.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Could you explain that bit more, please?
> > > 
> > > apt-get purge rkhunter. Enough?
> > > 
> > 
> > No, not really. Why do you think that rkhunter is useless?
> 
> It does not anything of consequence.
> 
> -- 
> Brian
> 

Do you find checking for possible rootkits is useless, or you are just
not happy how rkhunter performs that function?

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Brian]

On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:31:55 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:

> On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:16:26 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> > 
> > > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 15:44:30 +0200, Rob van der Putten wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Hi there
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On 24/08/17 15:39, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > >As of Stretch, the standard OpenSSH sshd does not support
> > > > > >Protocol 1, so there's no particular reason to enforce it
> > > > > >by stating Protocol 2.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I assumed as much. It's just a simple way to keep rkhunter happy.
> > > > > 
> > > > > >PermitRootLogin now defaults to "prohibit-password", which
> > > > > >means that you can log in as root with a proper SSH key or
> > > > > >via other methods you have set up, but not with a password.
> > > > > >Another useful argument is forced-commands-only, which requires
> > > > > >both public-key authentication and a command="blah blah" option
> > > > > >in the authorized_keys file, and only allows those commands to
> > > > > >be run. If you've got a pull backup system, that can help.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.
> > > > 
> > > > You could make a start by purging it from your system. It performs no
> > > > useful function.
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Brian.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Could you explain that bit more, please?
> > 
> > apt-get purge rkhunter. Enough?
> > 
> 
> No, not really. Why do you think that rkhunter is useless?

It does not anything of consequence.

-- 
Brian

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Dejan Jocic]

On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:16:26 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:
> 
> > On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 15:44:30 +0200, Rob van der Putten wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hi there
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On 24/08/17 15:39, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > >As of Stretch, the standard OpenSSH sshd does not support
> > > > >Protocol 1, so there's no particular reason to enforce it
> > > > >by stating Protocol 2.
> > > > 
> > > > I assumed as much. It's just a simple way to keep rkhunter happy.
> > > > 
> > > > >PermitRootLogin now defaults to "prohibit-password", which
> > > > >means that you can log in as root with a proper SSH key or
> > > > >via other methods you have set up, but not with a password.
> > > > >Another useful argument is forced-commands-only, which requires
> > > > >both public-key authentication and a command="blah blah" option
> > > > >in the authorized_keys file, and only allows those commands to
> > > > >be run. If you've got a pull backup system, that can help.
> > > > 
> > > > The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.
> > > 
> > > You could make a start by purging it from your system. It performs no
> > > useful function.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Brian.
> > > 
> > 
> > Could you explain that bit more, please?
> 
> apt-get purge rkhunter. Enough?
> 

No, not really. Why do you think that rkhunter is useless?

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Brian]

On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 21:16:26 +0200, Dejan Jocic wrote:

> On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 15:44:30 +0200, Rob van der Putten wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi there
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 24/08/17 15:39, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > 
> > > >As of Stretch, the standard OpenSSH sshd does not support
> > > >Protocol 1, so there's no particular reason to enforce it
> > > >by stating Protocol 2.
> > > 
> > > I assumed as much. It's just a simple way to keep rkhunter happy.
> > > 
> > > >PermitRootLogin now defaults to "prohibit-password", which
> > > >means that you can log in as root with a proper SSH key or
> > > >via other methods you have set up, but not with a password.
> > > >Another useful argument is forced-commands-only, which requires
> > > >both public-key authentication and a command="blah blah" option
> > > >in the authorized_keys file, and only allows those commands to
> > > >be run. If you've got a pull backup system, that can help.
> > > 
> > > The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.
> > 
> > You could make a start by purging it from your system. It performs no
> > useful function.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Brian.
> > 
> 
> Could you explain that bit more, please?

apt-get purge rkhunter. Enough?

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Dejan Jocic]

On 24-08-17, Brian wrote:
> On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 15:44:30 +0200, Rob van der Putten wrote:
> 
> > Hi there
> > 
> > 
> > On 24/08/17 15:39, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > 
> > >As of Stretch, the standard OpenSSH sshd does not support
> > >Protocol 1, so there's no particular reason to enforce it
> > >by stating Protocol 2.
> > 
> > I assumed as much. It's just a simple way to keep rkhunter happy.
> > 
> > >PermitRootLogin now defaults to "prohibit-password", which
> > >means that you can log in as root with a proper SSH key or
> > >via other methods you have set up, but not with a password.
> > >Another useful argument is forced-commands-only, which requires
> > >both public-key authentication and a command="blah blah" option
> > >in the authorized_keys file, and only allows those commands to
> > >be run. If you've got a pull backup system, that can help.
> > 
> > The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.
> 
> You could make a start by purging it from your system. It performs no
> useful function.
> 
> -- 
> Brian.
> 

Could you explain that bit more, please?

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Brian]

On Thu 24 Aug 2017 at 15:44:30 +0200, Rob van der Putten wrote:

> Hi there
> 
> 
> On 24/08/17 15:39, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> >As of Stretch, the standard OpenSSH sshd does not support
> >Protocol 1, so there's no particular reason to enforce it
> >by stating Protocol 2.
> 
> I assumed as much. It's just a simple way to keep rkhunter happy.
> 
> >PermitRootLogin now defaults to "prohibit-password", which
> >means that you can log in as root with a proper SSH key or
> >via other methods you have set up, but not with a password.
> >Another useful argument is forced-commands-only, which requires
> >both public-key authentication and a command="blah blah" option
> >in the authorized_keys file, and only allows those commands to
> >be run. If you've got a pull backup system, that can help.
> 
> The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.

You could make a start by purging it from your system. It performs no
useful function.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Rob van der Putten]

Hi there


On 24/08/17 15:39, Dan Ritter wrote:


As of Stretch, the standard OpenSSH sshd does not support
Protocol 1, so there's no particular reason to enforce it
by stating Protocol 2.


I assumed as much. It's just a simple way to keep rkhunter happy.


PermitRootLogin now defaults to "prohibit-password", which
means that you can log in as root with a proper SSH key or
via other methods you have set up, but not with a password.
Another useful argument is forced-commands-only, which requires
both public-key authentication and a command="blah blah" option
in the authorized_keys file, and only allows those commands to
be run. If you've got a pull backup system, that can help.


The alternative would be to reconfigure rkhunter.


Regards,
Rob

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Dan Ritter]

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 02:49:00PM +0200, Rob van der Putten wrote:
> Hi there
> 
> 
> On 22/08/17 21:16, Rob van der Putten wrote:
> 
> > Upgrade from amd64 Jessie (insserv, bare ALSA).
> > I kind of miss xfce-mixer Alsamixergui works, but xfce-mixer looked
> > better.
> 
> I use qasmixer now;
> http://www.sput.nl/software/qasmixer.png
> I removed the xfce4 meta package, since it insists on pulse related stuff.
> There is no xfce4-artwork in Stretch, but the Jessie version works.
> 
> > I'm very happy that Firefox works on bare ALSA.
> 
> > I posted a few things, probably kernel bugs.
> > Apart from that, seamless transition. Even my serial mouse still works.
> > Rkhunter nags a bit about SSH. Even though things seem to be OK. I still
> > have to look into that.
> 
> I added;
> Protocol 2
> PermitRootLogin no
> to /etc/ssh/sshd_config

As of Stretch, the standard OpenSSH sshd does not support
Protocol 1, so there's no particular reason to enforce it 
by stating Protocol 2.

PermitRootLogin now defaults to "prohibit-password", which
means that you can log in as root with a proper SSH key or
via other methods you have set up, but not with a password.
Another useful argument is forced-commands-only, which requires
both public-key authentication and a command="blah blah" option
in the authorized_keys file, and only allows those commands to
be run. If you've got a pull backup system, that can help.

-dsr-

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Rob van der Putten]

Hi there


On 22/08/17 21:16, Rob van der Putten wrote:


Upgrade from amd64 Jessie (insserv, bare ALSA).
I kind of miss xfce-mixer Alsamixergui works, but xfce-mixer looked 
better.


I use qasmixer now;
http://www.sput.nl/software/qasmixer.png
I removed the xfce4 meta package, since it insists on pulse related stuff.
There is no xfce4-artwork in Stretch, but the Jessie version works.


I'm very happy that Firefox works on bare ALSA.



I posted a few things, probably kernel bugs.
Apart from that, seamless transition. Even my serial mouse still works.
Rkhunter nags a bit about SSH. Even though things seem to be OK. I still 
have to look into that.


I added;
Protocol 2
PermitRootLogin no
to /etc/ssh/sshd_config


Regards,
Rob

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Rob van der Putten]

Hi there


On 21/08/17 18:29, deloptes wrote:


No issues, even with new installation on new disk :)


Upgrade from amd64 Jessie (insserv, bare ALSA).
I kind of miss xfce-mixer Alsamixergui works, but xfce-mixer looked 
better. I'm very happy that Firefox works on bare ALSA.



As Greg wrote, please share the issues.


I posted a few things, probably kernel bugs.
Apart from that, seamless transition. Even my serial mouse still works.
Rkhunter nags a bit about SSH. Even though things seem to be OK. I still 
have to look into that.



Going back - might be an option perhaps for the next 2-4y.
changing dists - you may face same on other dist as well



Regards,
Rob

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Ben Finney]

Borden Rhodes  writes:

> I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
> anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using.

My reply was primarily addressing that statement: you were surprised
that Stretch, with the problems you describe, was released.


Borden Rhodes  writes:

> Thank you for your response, Ben,
>
> > What response did you get to the bug reports you filed from the
> > problems you encountered?
>
> One example includes an X regression […] To my knowledge, it's still
> broken in testing […] (#863532).

Thanks. Do you have an understanding, from that discussion, why that
specific bug remained unresolved in Stretch?


> Then there are the issues with the upgrade to KDE 5, which aren't
> Debian's fault […] These are all upstream bugs that I've tried to
> report.

Are there bug reports in Debian that would show why the package should
not be released with those bugs?

> Ironically, both reportbug and reportbug-ng are broken on my system!
> The former's GTK interface doesn't load

Sorry to learn that. Does the text-only interface work well enough to
report bugs?

> I also ran into an issue […] I just uninstalled them and continued on.

I think you can see from that, why the Debian release team can't be
expected to know that a package is unsuitable for release, if people's
experience with a bug are not recorded in a bug report :-)

-- 
 \   “A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of |
  `\   widths.” —Steven Wright |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Borden Rhodes]

Thank you for your response, Ben,

> What response did you get to the bug reports you filed from the problems you 
> encountered?

One example includes an X regression that caused it to wait upwards of
8 minutes searching for my laptop's touchscreen. The bug was caused by
a typo where, instead of waiting 250 milliseconds to detect a serial
device, it waits 250 seconds. To my knowledge, it's still broken in
testing and I've worked around it by uninstalling the
xserver-xorg-input-wacom driver (#863532).

Then there are the issues with the upgrade to KDE 5, which aren't
Debian's fault but still make KDE pretty unstable. A lot of features
have been removed and other things just plain don't work. These are
all upstream bugs that I've tried to report.

Ironically, both reportbug and reportbug-ng are broken on my system!
The former's GTK interface doesn't load and the latter URL-safe
encodes all the text (#594217), so all you get is a bunch of gibberish
and a rejection from the BTS.

I also ran into an issue where live-boot and/or live-config suddenly
prevented my system from booting (I make images for USB installs),
despite https://debian-live.alioth.debian.org/ saying that there's no
harm to installing them. I just uninstalled them and continued on.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[tony mollica]

Thanks for the replies.  I'll maybe try another clean install and see 
what happens.




On 08/21/2017 01:06 PM, Borden Rhodes wrote:

Hey Tony,

I had lots of problems with Stretch when it was in testing. A lot of
packages (KDE, X drivers, and the kernel come immediately to mind)
have manageable but irritating upstream regressions that didn't get
patched or backported in time for the release.

I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using. Therefore, I've
stayed on the testing branch where many of the problems are slowly
getting fixed.

In terms of stability, I think Debian is one of the better distros
you'll get. Other distros achieve greater stability but suffer from
MacOS syndrome: the distro works only if you stick to the limited set
of features explicitly designed into the distro. There are
fixed-release-cycle distros like Ubuntu that seem to be perpetually
broken - you report a bug in a release and get told it'll be fixed in
the next release six months from now. Assuming that it's fixed in the
next release, you have a whole new set of bugs to deal with, and the
cycle continues.

In my 13 years of Linux experience, I keep coming back to Debian. It's
not perfect, but it hasn't ruined my life... yet.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Ben Finney]

Borden Rhodes  writes:

> I had lots of problems with Stretch when it was in testing.

Thank you for running the ‘testing’ suite. The problems you encountered
are an important part of having people run that suite; you can then
report those problems in the Debian bug tracking system, so that the
package maintainers have enough information to correct the package
*before* release.

What response did you get to the bug reports you filed from the problems
you encountered?

> I was very surprised when they released Stretch

The release managers will use the Debian BTS to determine whether
packages should remain in Debian for the release.

Did the bug reports you made get addressed? Which packages still had
Debian bug reports unresolved when Stretch was released?

-- 
 \   “Whenever you read a good book, it's like the author is right |
  `\   there, in the room talking to you, which is why I don't like to |
_o__)   read good books.” —Jack Handey |
Ben Finney

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Borden Rhodes]

Hey Tony,

I had lots of problems with Stretch when it was in testing. A lot of
packages (KDE, X drivers, and the kernel come immediately to mind)
have manageable but irritating upstream regressions that didn't get
patched or backported in time for the release.

I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using. Therefore, I've
stayed on the testing branch where many of the problems are slowly
getting fixed.

In terms of stability, I think Debian is one of the better distros
you'll get. Other distros achieve greater stability but suffer from
MacOS syndrome: the distro works only if you stick to the limited set
of features explicitly designed into the distro. There are
fixed-release-cycle distros like Ubuntu that seem to be perpetually
broken - you report a bug in a release and get told it'll be fixed in
the next release six months from now. Assuming that it's fixed in the
next release, you have a whole new set of bugs to deal with, and the
cycle continues.

In my 13 years of Linux experience, I keep coming back to Debian. It's
not perfect, but it hasn't ruined my life... yet.

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 2017-08-21 09:08 -0700 tony mollica  wrote:
>I don't usually complain about free stuff but, for me, stretch has 
>become a distant back-runner to previous releases.  Jessie was fast and 
>everything worked.  Stretch has become a day to day challenge for even 
>minor issues.  Going back or changing dists.
>
>I'd like to know if others have the same issue or is it my particular 
>installation, which was a new, clean install to a new disk.

I made a fresh install too and I have not had any major problem.

Something that stopped working (apparently because of the change
to libinput) is changing "Device Accel Constant Deceleration" with xinput
to make the cursor slower. But now I use “Coordinate Transformation
Matrix“ for the same effect.

-- 
Do not eat animals, respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan


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Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[deloptes]

tony mollica wrote:

> I'd like to know if others have the same issue or is it my particular
> installation, which was a new, clean install to a new disk.

No issues, even with new installation on new disk :)

As Greg wrote, please share the issues.

Going back - might be an option perhaps for the next 2-4y.
changing dists - you may face same on other dist as well

regards

Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 09:08:55AM -0700, tony mollica wrote:
> I'd like to know if others have the same issue or is it my particular
> installation, which was a new, clean install to a new disk.

What issues?  You didn't say what's wrong.

For many desktop/laptop systems, the changes in the video drivers will
cause issues, until you add the appropriate non-free firmware.  This
applies even to systems which did not require the firmware under
jessie, because jessie used different drivers.

Debian v9 it's a stretch

[tony mollica]

I don't usually complain about free stuff but, for me, stretch has 
become a distant back-runner to previous releases.  Jessie was fast and 
everything worked.  Stretch has become a day to day challenge for even 
minor issues.  Going back or changing dists.


I'd like to know if others have the same issue or is it my particular 
installation, which was a new, clean install to a new disk.


tjm