Re: Design of Debian web site
On Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 05:21:21PM +0100, Thomas Apel wrote: What do you think about this? I would be happy to hear your opinions. If there is enough positive feedback I can create a rough prototype of what I think of. Hello Tom! Thank you for your constructive suggestions. I think the following guidelines should be followed roughly: * No frames. Frames are evil ;) * Should be good with Netscape and Lynx at least (note that lynx does support META tags, this is very good for navigation) * Only few different graphical elements (no essential information there). * Information should be presented clear and fast accesible. I think one more sub menu would be fine. * it should be able to auto generate pages with scripts (well, the bug pages are auto generated, aren't they?) I would welcome a prototype. Please sent a notice to debian-publicity and perhaps to debian-devel if you have it ready. Thank you again, Marcus -- Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.Debian GNU/Linuxfinger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann http://www.debian.orgmaster.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fw: Design of Debian web site
On Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 04:27:03PM -0500, James A.Treacy wrote: FYI, it has been my intention to have the actual web pages generated using m4. This would allow us to have a generic header and footer (for each language) and have time stamps be generated automatically. Modifying the header or footer in the past has been a royal pain as every page had to be changed by hand. Oh, BTW. Have you tried wml? It's quite handy for these things. My favourite is making the actual files be just almost-xml, and using a template to create the actual page layout. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - it's a valid address w/o spam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fw: Design of Debian web site
For those of you who don't know, I am the current webmaster for Debian. I just heard of this thread yesterday and was going to read the debian-user archive, but won't bother as the discussion has been moved. Future replies will not go to debian-user so subscribe to debian-www if you are interested in this. Thomas Apel wrote: Concerning the topic I think the most important thing about the Debian www site is its content. Besides this it should be fast-loading and easy to use with any browser. But I also think that a good design is a nice thing AND possible without loosing the above attributes. Good design does not necessarily mean frames, tons of graphics or java animations. If you had been involved in previous discussions, you would know that the developers felt very strongly that there should be NO forms or java on the pages and that the amount of graphics should be minimized. Tables are well enough supported now that there is no problem in using them. Who is interested in what I think of might have a look at: http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~thomas.apel/debian/index.html Although this is a pretty simple page compared to many other sites I could even imagine a more simple page without tables. The page you designed is very much along the lines I had been thinking about. Many people have been complaining (and just as many complimenting) the site. I have encouraged every person who has written complaining about the site to offer suggestions and not a single one has actually come back with anything constructive. Thank you for your effort. I have been working on getting all the mirrors set up so we can easily handle multiple languages (will be done using content negotiation). It was originally hoped that the pages would be translated by the release of 2.0. As that doesn't appear likely, it would be best to make these modifications before a major translation effort to minimize the work of the translators. Here are some points that should be addressed/discussed: Should we only redesign the top page, or modify all the pages to use frames (in particular the left margin or top frame to ease moving around the site)? My feeling is to leave the other pages as is. There should be a place for the Debian logo (do not start a discussion on the quality of the logo. This will be discussed somewhere else). Should we use style sheets? Is there any point in keeping the site index? I inherited it and have (sort of) maintained it, but don't see the point. There needs to be space at the bottom for the logo of the site sponsor. After the pages are translated, there will be links at the bottom to access the page in specific languages. This is for those who don't set up the preferred_language variable in their browser. FYI, it has been my intention to have the actual web pages generated using m4. This would allow us to have a generic header and footer (for each language) and have time stamps be generated automatically. Modifying the header or footer in the past has been a royal pain as every page had to be changed by hand. Is it necessary to have both the left frame and titlebar links? A few specific changes: We go International - Debian goes International (We doesn't work well here) Bug Tracking - Bug Tracking System Jay Treacy Why don't you start a competition? Invite everyone to have a go at redesigning a set part of the site, then take the best ideas and apply them to the whole site. Just an idea. Graham Pople ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) SNES emulators at Emulation One (http://www.jalna.demon.co.uk/index.htm) All emulators at E1 Newsletter (http://www.jalna.demon.co.uk/e1news.htm) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fw: Design of Debian web site
Would you people shift this thread to debian-www? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fw: Design of Debian web site
Hi! Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete Dutra wrote: Would you people shift this thread to debian-www? I am sorry for starting this thread on the wrong list. I did not notice that there is a www related list. So please send replies to debian-www. Concerning the topic I think the most important thing about the Debian www site is its content. Besides this it should be fast-loading and easy to use with any browser. But I also think that a good design is a nice thing AND possible without loosing the above attributes. Good design does not necessarily mean frames, tons of graphics or java animations. Who is interested in what I think of might have a look at: http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~thomas.apel/debian/index.html Although this is a pretty simple page compared to many other sites I could even imagine a more simple page without tables. Thomas - For all on debian-www I inlude the original message: Hi! The last times I visited the Debian web site I had to realize that it is not very impressing concerning design and structure. Especially in design the sites of FreeBSD, The GNOME Project, KDE, Red Hat, etc. have a lot more to offer. Of course web page design is not the most important thing about Debian but as the web site is in most cases the first contact with Debian I consider it important to have a professional, serious looking appearance. Moreover I think the strucure could be improved. I think 16 items in the main menu are too many and most of them would fit in a top level category. To make it more clear what I mean: I think of home page with a navigation bar on the left and a text column on the right. The navigation bar should contain a maximum of about 6 top level categories like About, News, Support, Development... each with its second level categories. The text column could contain a brief description of what Debian is, the latest news article or other related stuff. And to make it perfect one could add a nice banner containing the logo and the text Debian GNU/Linux. All other pages could contain a smaller version of the banner and a navigation bar on the top with only the top level categories. The whole thing could be colored in white / red / dark blue like the logo. What do you think about this? I would be happy to hear your opinions. If there is enough positive feedback I can create a rough prototype of what I think of. Bye, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fw: Design of Debian web site
For those of you who don't know, I am the current webmaster for Debian. I just heard of this thread yesterday and was going to read the debian-user archive, but won't bother as the discussion has been moved. Future replies will not go to debian-user so subscribe to debian-www if you are interested in this. Thomas Apel wrote: Concerning the topic I think the most important thing about the Debian www site is its content. Besides this it should be fast-loading and easy to use with any browser. But I also think that a good design is a nice thing AND possible without loosing the above attributes. Good design does not necessarily mean frames, tons of graphics or java animations. If you had been involved in previous discussions, you would know that the developers felt very strongly that there should be NO forms or java on the pages and that the amount of graphics should be minimized. Tables are well enough supported now that there is no problem in using them. Who is interested in what I think of might have a look at: http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~thomas.apel/debian/index.html Although this is a pretty simple page compared to many other sites I could even imagine a more simple page without tables. The page you designed is very much along the lines I had been thinking about. Many people have been complaining (and just as many complimenting) the site. I have encouraged every person who has written complaining about the site to offer suggestions and not a single one has actually come back with anything constructive. Thank you for your effort. I have been working on getting all the mirrors set up so we can easily handle multiple languages (will be done using content negotiation). It was originally hoped that the pages would be translated by the release of 2.0. As that doesn't appear likely, it would be best to make these modifications before a major translation effort to minimize the work of the translators. Here are some points that should be addressed/discussed: Should we only redesign the top page, or modify all the pages to use frames (in particular the left margin or top frame to ease moving around the site)? My feeling is to leave the other pages as is. There should be a place for the Debian logo (do not start a discussion on the quality of the logo. This will be discussed somewhere else). Should we use style sheets? Is there any point in keeping the site index? I inherited it and have (sort of) maintained it, but don't see the point. There needs to be space at the bottom for the logo of the site sponsor. After the pages are translated, there will be links at the bottom to access the page in specific languages. This is for those who don't set up the preferred_language variable in their browser. FYI, it has been my intention to have the actual web pages generated using m4. This would allow us to have a generic header and footer (for each language) and have time stamps be generated automatically. Modifying the header or footer in the past has been a royal pain as every page had to be changed by hand. Is it necessary to have both the left frame and titlebar links? A few specific changes: We go International - Debian goes International (We doesn't work well here) Bug Tracking - Bug Tracking System Jay Treacy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fw: Design of Debian web site
Thomas Apel wrote: Nice job, Thomas! I just had a look at your page and I, for one, like it. A lot. Hi! Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete Dutra wrote: Would you people shift this thread to debian-www? I am sorry for starting this thread on the wrong list. I did not notice that there is a www related list. So please send replies to debian-www. Concerning the topic I think the most important thing about the Debian www site is its content. Besides this it should be fast-loading and easy to use with any browser. But I also think that a good design is a nice thing AND possible without loosing the above attributes. Good design does not necessarily mean frames, tons of graphics or java animations. Who is interested in what I think of might have a look at: http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~thomas.apel/debian/index.html Although this is a pretty simple page compared to many other sites I could even imagine a more simple page without tables. Thomas - For all on debian-www I inlude the original message: Hi! The last times I visited the Debian web site I had to realize that it is not very impressing concerning design and structure. Especially in design the sites of FreeBSD, The GNOME Project, KDE, Red Hat, etc. have a lot more to offer. Of course web page design is not the most important thing about Debian but as the web site is in most cases the first contact with Debian I consider it important to have a professional, serious looking appearance. Moreover I think the strucure could be improved. I think 16 items in the main menu are too many and most of them would fit in a top level category. To make it more clear what I mean: I think of home page with a navigation bar on the left and a text column on the right. The navigation bar should contain a maximum of about 6 top level categories like About, News, Support, Development... each with its second level categories. The text column could contain a brief description of what Debian is, the latest news article or other related stuff. And to make it perfect one could add a nice banner containing the logo and the text Debian GNU/Linux. All other pages could contain a smaller version of the banner and a navigation bar on the top with only the top level categories. The whole thing could be colored in white / red / dark blue like the logo. What do you think about this? I would be happy to hear your opinions. If there is enough positive feedback I can create a rough prototype of what I think of. Bye, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- - Ralph Winslow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mary bought a pair of skates upon the ice to frisk now wasn't that a crazy way her sweet young *? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Ender Wigin wrote: Hi, Please do not forget that there are users who access the site using text-based browsers like Lynx. Navigation bars and like make a site more difficult to navigate for them. That should not be an isue ... you can write a script that autoloads a lynx version automaticly if you can't handle frames I may be wrong about this but I realy think I've seen this somewhere before Note that to be sure all these fancy things work you must try them on multiple versions of multiple browsers. Lynx actually deals with much of this better than some of the others. Let's see there is Mosaic, lynx, Chimera, Netscape, Internet Destroyer, and a few other less known, that are still in common use. If you do not care about any of these people, sure go ahead. Personally, I find some of the simple pages more attractive, and usually more usefull. /*** Running Debian Linux *** * For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, * * that whoever believes in Him should not perish...John 3:16 * * W. Paul Mills* Topeka, Kansas, U.S.A.* * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://homepage.midusa.net/~wpmills/ * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://www.networksplus.net/wpmills/ * * Bill, I was there several years ago, why would I want to go back? * / -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
Kenneth L. Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would have to disagree. I like it the way it is. It is simple, elegant, and I don't have to search through five screens to find what I want. As for professional: I've seen plenty of professional sites that are cluttered, take *way* to long to download, and are hard to use. I would agree that a little more color and contrast might be nice (it is pretty white), and a unified structure (i.e., banners that match on every page, etc.) is a good thing. But I have to think that the basic structure is pretty good the was it is. I agree with Ken. One of the good features of the current web site is that it is as usable with lynx as it is with a GUI. Far too many professional sites hide information and links inside graphics, so a text-based bowser can't see them. Bob -- _ |_) _ |_ Robert D. Hilliard[EMAIL PROTECTED] |_) (_) |_) Palm City, FL USAPGP Key ID: A8E40EB9 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, cleto wrote: Please do not forget that there are users who access the site using text-based browsers like Lynx. Navigation bars and like make a site more difficult to navigate for them. On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Thomas Apel wrote: To make it more clear what I mean: I think of home page with a navigation bar on the left and a text column on the right. [...] It's possible to design a good-looking page on a GUI that doesn't take forever to download which still works ok for lynx, Netscape 1.0, Mosaic etc. Even frames are not that bad: if you are careful, it will only require a few more clicks or the like from the user. In fact, I haven't checked the details, but I believe HTML 4.0 is an attempt to standartise the various HTML enhancements in a way reasonably compatible with older implementatios. I don't mean we should make the page a fireworks show, but I do believe it would benefit from a little more attention to visual design. Also, the structure is *not* that good IMHO (differently from someone else said before); that doesn't mean it's bad, it's just not the best. See ya, Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's Internet! The future? I've seen the future: It's a 46 years old virgin singing 'I am a hotdog' - From Demolition Man -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:33:10 +0100, cleto wrote: On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Thomas Apel wrote: To make it more clear what I mean: I think of home page with a navigation bar on the left and a text column on the right. The navigation bar should contain a maximum of about 6 top level categories like About, News, Support, Development... each with its second level categories. The text column could contain a brief description of what Debian is, the latest news article or other related stuff. And to make it perfect one could add a nice banner containing the logo and the text Debian GNU/Linux. All other pages could contain a smaller version of the banner and a navigation bar on the top with only the top level categories. The whole thing could be colored in white / red / dark blue like the logo. Hi, Please do not forget that there are users who access the site using text-based browsers like Lynx. Navigation bars and like make a site more difficult to navigate for them. Cleto I agree that the current Debian website design is lacking in visual impact however I also appreciate the concern for keeping web pages fast loading. I've used lynx for about five years and I don't find navigation bars prohibitive (at least per se), in fact the organization can be nice. There are some lynx-friendly web authoring guidelines at: Web authoring and Lynx http://www.crl.com/~subir/lynx/author_tips.html Rather than a single website design, why not open a Debian website design contest, with Thomas' design being the first entry? -- David Stern -- http://weber.u.washington.edu/~kotsya [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
On 03/28/98 at 09:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kenneth L. Summers) said: Hi! The last times I visited the Debian web site I had to realize that it is not very impressing concerning design and structure. Especially in design the sites of FreeBSD, The GNOME Project, KDE, Red Hat, etc. have a lot more to offer. I would have to disagree. I like it the way it is. It is simple, elegant, and I don't have to search through five screens to find what I want. As for professional: I've seen plenty of professional sites that are cluttered, take *way* to long to download, and are hard to use. I would agree that a little more color and contrast might be nice (it is pretty white), and a unified structure (i.e., banners that match on every page, etc.) is a good thing. But I have to think that the basic structure is pretty good the was it is. But I am glad somebody still looks at these things :) Well, when I was trying to decide FreeBSD or Linux and which version to start using, I looked at all the web sites. I chose Debian for 2 reasons: 1) a Debian user took the time to explain the major differances between FreeBSD and Linux giving the best features of each. He was objective about it, no Holy War discussion. 2) the Debian page wasn't a Windows page. I didn't have to wade through a dozen pages to get what I wanted. It loaded quickly. I didn't have a bunch of little page sections that didn't fit my browser screen. It didn't need a Windows95 browser to be best viewed. The Debian page seemed more interested in giving me usefull information than blasting me with javascripts, animations, and graphics by the ton. That made me feel Debian could stand on it's own; it didn't need all the flash and glitter to make an impression. my $0.02 George I would like to thank M$ and IBM for combining FUD and incompetent marketing to kill the best desktop GUI to date. Hence, forcing me to switch to Linux/*BSD tommorrows ideas today. reply to: grimel @icx Sorry for the trouble, I'm just getting to much spam. .net --- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Design of Debian web site
Hi! The last times I visited the Debian web site I had to realize that it is not very impressing concerning design and structure. Especially in design the sites of FreeBSD, The GNOME Project, KDE, Red Hat, etc. have a lot more to offer. Of course web page design is not the most important thing about Debian but as the web site is in most cases the first contact with Debian I consider it important to have a professional, serious looking appearance. Moreover I think the strucure could be improved. I think 16 items in the main menu are too many and most of them would fit in a top level category. To make it more clear what I mean: I think of home page with a navigation bar on the left and a text column on the right. The navigation bar should contain a maximum of about 6 top level categories like About, News, Support, Development... each with its second level categories. The text column could contain a brief description of what Debian is, the latest news article or other related stuff. And to make it perfect one could add a nice banner containing the logo and the text Debian GNU/Linux. All other pages could contain a smaller version of the banner and a navigation bar on the top with only the top level categories. The whole thing could be colored in white / red / dark blue like the logo. What do you think about this? I would be happy to hear your opinions. If there is enough positive feedback I can create a rough prototype of what I think of. Bye, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
Hi! The last times I visited the Debian web site I had to realize that it is not very impressing concerning design and structure. Especially in design the sites of FreeBSD, The GNOME Project, KDE, Red Hat, etc. have a lot more to offer. Of course web page design is not the most important thing about Debian but as the web site is in most cases the first contact with Debian I consider it important to have a professional, serious looking appearance. Moreover I think the strucure could be improved. I think 16 items in the main menu are too many and most of them would fit in a top level category. To make it more clear what I mean: I think of home page with a navigation bar on the left and a text column on the right. The navigation bar should contain a maximum of about 6 top level categories like About, News, Support, Development... each with its second level categories. The text column could contain a brief description of what Debian is, the latest news article or other related stuff. And to make it perfect one could add a nice banner containing the logo and the text Debian GNU/Linux. All other pages could contain a smaller version of the banner and a navigation bar on the top with only the top level categories. The whole thing could be colored in white / red / dark blue like the logo. What do you think about this? I would be happy to hear your opinions. If there is enough positive feedback I can create a rough prototype of what I think of. Bye, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would have to disagree. I like it the way it is. It is simple, elegant, and I don't have to search through five screens to find what I want. As for professional: I've seen plenty of professional sites that are cluttered, take *way* to long to download, and are hard to use. I would agree that a little more color and contrast might be nice (it is pretty white), and a unified structure (i.e., banners that match on every page, etc.) is a good thing. But I have to think that the basic structure is pretty good the was it is. But I am glad somebody still looks at these things :) Ken -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
The last times I visited the Debian web site I had to realize that it is not very impressing concerning design and structure. Especially in design the sites of FreeBSD, The GNOME Project, KDE, Red Hat, etc. have a lot more to offer. Although the Debian site may not be a 'pretty' as some that you have mentioned, I have found it to have more to offer than any other Linux distro site, or FreeBSD - and its quicker over a slow connection. Jason -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
Hi, Please do not forget that there are users who access the site using text-based browsers like Lynx. Navigation bars and like make a site more difficult to navigate for them. Cleto On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Thomas Apel wrote: To make it more clear what I mean: I think of home page with a navigation bar on the left and a text column on the right. The navigation bar should contain a maximum of about 6 top level categories like About, News, Support, Development... each with its second level categories. The text column could contain a brief description of what Debian is, the latest news article or other related stuff. And to make it perfect one could add a nice banner containing the logo and the text Debian GNU/Linux. All other pages could contain a smaller version of the banner and a navigation bar on the top with only the top level categories. The whole thing could be colored in white / red / dark blue like the logo. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
Cleto writes: Please do not forget that there are users who access the site using text-based browsers like Lynx. I never access it with anything else. Navigation bars and like make a site more difficult to navigate for them. I would hate to see the Debian site become as cluttered with graphical crap as the rest of the Web. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
Hi, Please do not forget that there are users who access the site using text-based browsers like Lynx. Navigation bars and like make a site more difficult to navigate for them. That should not be an isue ... you can write a script that autoloads a lynx version automaticly if you can't handle frames I may be wrong about this but I realy think I've seen this somewhere before -K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Design of Debian web site
On Sat, Mar 28, 1998 at 05:12:18PM -0600, Ender Wigin wrote: Hi, Please do not forget that there are users who access the site using text-based browsers like Lynx. Navigation bars and like make a site more difficult to navigate for them. That should not be an isue ... you can write a script that autoloads a lynx version automaticly if you can't handle frames I may be wrong about this but I realy think I've seen this somewhere before The best thing to do is not even use frames (I hate them, personally) and use alt tags for images and test the pages in a lot of browsers. Take a look at http://slashdot.org for a page that looks great, has cool graphics, tables and all that, yet still works very well in lynx. Keeping lynx compatibility is trivial. Also, I am in the camp who would love to see an updated Debian home page. Same emphasis on content, but with a more consistent look and fell and some cooler graphics. I would even be willing to help any one who want to go in on this endeavor. -- --Travis At the end of the day, all we care about is doing great software. -Bill Gates -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
