Re: feedback on install of bullseye

[David Wright]

On Sat 24 Sep 2022 at 18:48:13 (-0700), Ray Andrews wrote:
> On 2022-09-24 13:52, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Ray Andrews wrote:
> > > To whom might read this.  I can't boil this down to a formal bug report 
> > > but
> > > for what it's worth:
> > > 
> > > BULLSEYE INSTALL, 2022-09-23:
> > > 
> > > Decided to do a virgin install of bullseye to my /dev/sdb while keeping
> > > /dev/sda devoted to Stretch. Got the installer onto a USB stick, and
> > > proceeding normally. The 'normal' install (sorry, I forget the exact name)
> > > ... I get as far as partitioning and although the disk (sdb) is already
> > > partitioned and formatted and working fine, it seemed to be impossible to
> > > just leave things as they were and install to the existing partitions, it
> > > kept complaining that a necessary step was not completed. Erasing the
> > > partitions (overwrite with zeros) didn't help. I couldn't figure out how 
> > > to
> > > make it work so backed up and selected 'use whole disk'.
> > You are lacking vital information to pass on to us here: what
> > necessary step was not completed?
> When I tried to bypass partitioning.  As I said,  the disk was already
> partitioned and formatted and had a working copy of Debian 9 on it, so
> my thought was to just zero out the existing partitions, which was
> offered, and then proceed to install, but the the installer refused to
> let me proceed.  It seemed to feel the need to create partitions not
> reuse them. 

That would correspond with my reading of §6.3.4.2.

> The final partitioning screen showed the partitions
> marked 'K' (keep) and I couldn't explain to the installer that they
> were free to use.

I would only expect to see partitions marked K where the contents were
to be strictly left alone by the partitioner, but were to be available
for the installer to use. This would include (for GPT disks) EFI and
BIOS Boot partitions, and filesystems like, say, /home or /opt that
had preexisting contents that were to be mounted in the installer just
after the partitioning step.

Here's an example of mine that's closest to the setup that you have.
The first disk is an internal SSD with Windows on it, and the second
is the installer stick.

The third disk is an external caddy, sdb, and has #1 backup provision
for Windows, #2 BIOS Boot for Grub (necessary with a GPT disk), #3 EFI
for booting, #4 an oldoldstable root filesystem that is the one I'm
overwriting in the installer, #5 an oldstable root filesystem that I'm
keeping but don't need mounting in the installer, and #6 which is an
encrypted filesystem that is /home to #5, and will be /home to #4 when
I've configured (say, the next day) the new installation to decrypt
and mount it.

So I'd expect you to have a line like that of #4, and you'd probably
also have a line for swap like:

  │  > #N524.3 MB F  swapLinux swapswap

which I don't have, as the systems on this caddy aren't intended for
any sort of heavy work.

  ┌┤ [!!] Partition disks ├─┐
  │ │
  │ This is an overview of your currently configured partitions and mount   │
  │ points. Select a partition to modify its settings (file system, mount   │
  │ point, etc.), a free space to create partitions, or a device to │
  │ initialize its partition table. │
  │ │
  │  Configure iSCSI volumes↑   │
  │ ▒   │
  │  /dev/nvme0n1 - 512.1 GB THNSN5512GPUK TOSHIBA  ▒   │
  │  > 1.0 MBFREE SPACE ▒   │
  │  > #1367.0 MB  B fat32   EFI system p   ▒   │
  │  > #2134.2 MBMicrosoft re   ▒   │
  │  > #3510.6 GBntfsBasic data p   ▒   │
  │  >   871.9 kBFREE SPACE ▒   │
  │  > #4987.8 MBntfs   ▒   │
  │  > 1.4 MBFREE SPACE ▒   │
  │  SCSI1 (0,0,0) (sda) - 4.0 GB SMI USB DISK  ▒   │
  │  SCSI2 (0,0,0) (sdb) - 1.0 TB Seagate BUP Slim BK   ▒   │
  │  > 1.0 MBFREE SPACE ▒   │
  │  > #1666.8 GBntfsMicrosoft ba   ▒   │
  │  > #2  7.3 MB K  biosgrubBIOS boot pa   ▒   │
  │  > #3268.4 MB  B  K  ESP EFI System ▒   │
  │  > #4 31.5 GB F  ext4Quiz-A/▒   │
  │  > #5 31.5 GBext4Quiz-B ▒   │
  │  > #6270.2 GBQuiz-Home  ▒

Re: feedback on install of bullseye

[David]

On Sun, 25 Sept 2022 at 04:03, Ray Andrews  wrote:

>  ... I get as far as partitioning and although the disk (sdb) is
> already partitioned and formatted and working fine, it seemed to be
> impossible to just leave things as they were and install to the existing
> partitions, it kept complaining that a necessary step was not completed.
> Erasing the partitions (overwrite with zeros) didn't help. I couldn't
> figure out how to make it work so backed up and selected 'use whole disk'.

Hi Ray, I always install to existing partitions, so it is definitely possible.

Debian is very flexible. There are countless installation methods and
options and variations. And they mostly work. They are designed
to be powerful and flexible, but sometimes there is a learning curve.
This is great for people who aren't confused by them, but it makes
it hard to answer questions like yours. Unless you describe exactly
every step, we don't know exactly what you saw or did. And we understand
that providing such information isn't easy for you, either.

The installation guide is here:
  https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch06s03.en.html#di-partition

If I was to take a guess based on just the above paragraph ... "it kept
complaining that a necessary step was not completed" sounds like you
did not specify appropriate values for "use as" and "mount point".

I'm guessing that you would likely require
'use as' = "ext4 journalling file system" and 'mount point' = "/".

If that was the situation, the installer won't proceed because it won't
touch partitions that have not been specified to "use as", and it cannot
install Debian until it is told where you want the root filesystem ("/").

I have only ever used the installer in expert mode (that just means more
questions have to be answered), so I'm not experienced with how
it behaves in the simpler modes. I guess manual partitioning is the
same in both, if available. I have never used the GUI installer.

> Why couldn't I use existing, functioning ext4 partitions?

You definitely can. But you have to also specify somewhere for the new
installation to go, using the above method.

You might find the below video helpful for overview. Although I don't
necessarily agree with every detail, it might provide context if you
have any further questions.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMCFQwgtN-g

If you have further questions after reading the documentation, the
more specific you can make the question, so that we can exactly
reproduce your situation, the easier it is for volunteers with limited
time to answer you.

Re: feedback on install of bullseye

[David Wright]

On Sat 24 Sep 2022 at 10:45:56 (-0700), Ray Andrews wrote:
> To whom might read this.  I can't boil this down to a formal bug
> report but for what it's worth:
> 
> BULLSEYE INSTALL, 2022-09-23:
> 
> Decided to do a virgin install of bullseye to my /dev/sdb while
> keeping /dev/sda devoted to Stretch. Got the installer onto a USB
> stick, and proceeding normally.

For a wireless netinst install, you'd need the firmware inclusive
version of the installer, but for a wired netinst install, either
with or without firmware would normally suffice.

> The 'normal' install (sorry, I forget
> the exact name) ...

I'm assuming, by contrast with the expert one, it's default installer,
in either text or graphics mode. As far as I can glean from the
Installation Guide, I think you can either (§6.3.4) automatically
partition a whole disk, or (§6.3.4.2) manually /create/ partitions
in one of three ways. That would suggest that to re-use existing
partitions, as I do, you need to use the advanced installer.

As Dan says, the two installers are the same, but just ask different
levels of questions. The partitioner can be told which existing
partitions are to be used for what perpose, and even whether they
should be formatted or not. (Obviously reusing an existing filesystem
with files on it is at your own risk.)

> I get as far as partitioning and although the disk
> (sdb) is already partitioned and formatted and working fine, it seemed
> to be impossible to just leave things as they were and install to the
> existing partitions, it kept complaining that a necessary step was not
> completed.

If this is the «Finish partitioning and write changes to disk» step,
then yes, I believe it's essential because it's the step that actually
ties together the partitions, mount points, and usages in the "mind"
of the installer. As far as actions are concerned, this step can
involve almost none.

> Erasing the partitions (overwrite with zeros) didn't help.

This would be futile in any case, as the installer is expected to
format them with a filesystem (or swap).

> I couldn't figure out how to make it work so backed up and selected
> 'use whole disk'.
> 
> Proceeding, the installer couldn't establish a connection to the web.

That surprised me, in that the installer should have set the clock via
machines on the internet, but I do see (§6.3.3) that the non-expert
installer can side-step the issue in that step. I don't know why that
is the case, or whether it could be related to using a DVD of packages.

> I aborted the install since I couldn't go forward anyway. Boot to sda
> and ... the installer had trashed the MBR of *both* disks and the
> machine was unbootable. I attached another backup disk, booted to
> that, mounted my Stretch partitions on sda, reran LILO, and that was
> fine, I could boot Stretch. But the installer also trashed the swap
> partition on sda -- I had to run mkswap. But no permanent damage was
> done.
> 
> Why would the installer trash the MBR on a disk that was not involved?

Your narrative doesn't contain enough detail to even begin to answer
that question. We don't even knows what you mean by trash. In general,
MBRs are written (by "installation") or executed (at boot time) but
not read. Did you compare them with a known good copy, or see they
were, say, zeroed, or did it/they just not work?

You don't say whether any letters of L I L O appeared, or whether any
boot flagged partitions had lost their flag. What happens if both
disks have flagged partitions, and what mechanism chooses which
disk to boot from. Is it easy to distinguish the sda/sdb disks apart
from each other using only what's displayed in the partitioner or
by the installer (sdX assignments being unstable). These are some
of the factors involved.

> Trying again, I disconnected sda to keep it from getting mauled a
> second time and proceeded with the 'advanced' installer, again
> selecting 'use entire disk', this time the installer took the extra
> steps to get the network up and running and the install completed
> quite smoothly.

That certainly suggests that an appropriate installer was chosen
(my first paragraph).

> Shouldn't the 'normal' install do whatever is needed to get the
> network running? the advanced install had no problem there, I didn't
> have to intervene it just got it done.

I think I covered that at §6.3.3. As I said, I don't know the rationale.

> Why couldn't I use existing, functioning ext4 partitions?

The advanced installer can use existing partitions; you just didn't
select that method according to the narrative above. I'm not sure
what you imply by "functioning"; whether anything more than that
you've used them in the past. I don't know of a method to install
Debian into a preexisting encrypted filesystem, something I've never
needed to attempt. (Disclaimer: I know nothing about any limitations
of disk size, geometry, or addressability concerning LILO booting.)

> If one does have to abort, wouldn't it be better if no 

Re: feedback on install of bullseye

[Ray Andrews]

On 2022-09-24 13:52, Dan Ritter wrote:

Ray Andrews wrote:

To whom might read this.  I can't boil this down to a formal bug report but
for what it's worth:


BULLSEYE INSTALL, 2022-09-23:

Decided to do a virgin install of bullseye to my /dev/sdb while keeping
/dev/sda devoted to Stretch. Got the installer onto a USB stick, and
proceeding normally. The 'normal' install (sorry, I forget the exact name)
... I get as far as partitioning and although the disk (sdb) is already
partitioned and formatted and working fine, it seemed to be impossible to
just leave things as they were and install to the existing partitions, it
kept complaining that a necessary step was not completed. Erasing the
partitions (overwrite with zeros) didn't help. I couldn't figure out how to
make it work so backed up and selected 'use whole disk'.

You are lacking vital information to pass on to us here: what
necessary step was not completed?
When I tried to bypass partitioning.  As I said,  the disk was already 
partitioned and formatted and had a working copy of Debian 9 on it, so 
my thought was to just zero out the existing partitions, which was 
offered, and then proceed to install, but the the installer refused to 
let me proceed.  It seemed to feel the need to create partitions not 
reuse them.  The final partitioning screen showed the partitions marked 
'K' (keep) and I couldn't explain to the installer that they were free 
to use.

Proceeding, the installer couldn't establish a connection to the web.

What network hardware do you have? Wired or wireless?
Wired.  Pretty basic.  As I said, the 'advanced' installer had no 
trouble whatsoever.  The only thing I interacted with was setting the 
delay time to ten seconds from the IIRC default of three seconds.  Seems 
to me the 'basic' installer could/should be able to handle that.



Trying again, I disconnected sda to keep it from getting mauled a second
time and proceeded with the 'advanced' installer, again selecting 'use
entire disk', this time the installer took the extra steps to get the
network up and running and the install completed quite smoothly.

Shouldn't the 'normal' install do whatever is needed to get the network
running? the advanced install had no problem there, I didn't have to
intervene it just got it done.

The normal installer is the advanced installer but it
pre-answers a lot of questions with the most common answers.


Sure, and it was good enough for me, except that it wouldn't connect to 
the internet as I just mentioned.






Why would the installer trash the MBR on a disk that was not involved?

Why couldn't I use existing, functioning ext4 partitions?

You can. Somewhere in the missing error messages are the clues.


It could be that I just wasn't interacting with it properly.  If there 
was a log or something I'd be happy to attach another disk to the 
machine and try again and send you the results.  As long as you guys are 
interested I'll do anything to help.



Thanks Dan





-dsr-

Re: feedback on install of bullseye

[Dan Ritter]

Ray Andrews wrote: 
> To whom might read this.  I can't boil this down to a formal bug report but
> for what it's worth:
> 
> 
> BULLSEYE INSTALL, 2022-09-23:
> 
> Decided to do a virgin install of bullseye to my /dev/sdb while keeping
> /dev/sda devoted to Stretch. Got the installer onto a USB stick, and
> proceeding normally. The 'normal' install (sorry, I forget the exact name)
> ... I get as far as partitioning and although the disk (sdb) is already
> partitioned and formatted and working fine, it seemed to be impossible to
> just leave things as they were and install to the existing partitions, it
> kept complaining that a necessary step was not completed. Erasing the
> partitions (overwrite with zeros) didn't help. I couldn't figure out how to
> make it work so backed up and selected 'use whole disk'.

You are lacking vital information to pass on to us here: what
necessary step was not completed?

> Proceeding, the installer couldn't establish a connection to the web.

What network hardware do you have? Wired or wireless?

> Trying again, I disconnected sda to keep it from getting mauled a second
> time and proceeded with the 'advanced' installer, again selecting 'use
> entire disk', this time the installer took the extra steps to get the
> network up and running and the install completed quite smoothly.
> 
> Shouldn't the 'normal' install do whatever is needed to get the network
> running? the advanced install had no problem there, I didn't have to
> intervene it just got it done.

The normal installer is the advanced installer but it
pre-answers a lot of questions with the most common answers.

> Why would the installer trash the MBR on a disk that was not involved?
> 
> Why couldn't I use existing, functioning ext4 partitions?

You can. Somewhere in the missing error messages are the clues.

-dsr-

feedback on install of bullseye

[Ray Andrews]

To whom might read this.  I can't boil this down to a formal bug report 
but for what it's worth:



BULLSEYE INSTALL, 2022-09-23:

Decided to do a virgin install of bullseye to my /dev/sdb while keeping 
/dev/sda devoted to Stretch. Got the installer onto a USB stick, and 
proceeding normally. The 'normal' install (sorry, I forget the exact 
name) ... I get as far as partitioning and although the disk (sdb) is 
already partitioned and formatted and working fine, it seemed to be 
impossible to just leave things as they were and install to the existing 
partitions, it kept complaining that a necessary step was not completed. 
Erasing the partitions (overwrite with zeros) didn't help. I couldn't 
figure out how to make it work so backed up and selected 'use whole disk'.


Proceeding, the installer couldn't establish a connection to the web. I 
aborted the install since I couldn't go forward anyway. Boot to sda and 
... the installer had trashed the MBR of *both* disks and the machine 
was unbootable. I attached another backup disk, booted to that, mounted 
my Stretch partitions on sda, reran LILO, and that was fine, I could 
boot Stretch. But the installer also trashed the swap partition on sda 
-- I had to run mkswap. But no permanent damage was done.


Trying again, I disconnected sda to keep it from getting mauled a second 
time and proceeded with the 'advanced' installer, again selecting 'use 
entire disk', this time the installer took the extra steps to get the 
network up and running and the install completed quite smoothly.


Shouldn't the 'normal' install do whatever is needed to get the network 
running? the advanced install had no problem there, I didn't have to 
intervene it just got it done.


Why would the installer trash the MBR on a disk that was not involved?

Why couldn't I use existing, functioning ext4 partitions?

If one does have to abort, wouldn't it be better if no changes at all 
were made to anything? Why have a trashed system even when one had to 
abort? In other words, why not check that the network is available 
*before* trashing the MBR of both disks and the partition table of sdb 
and the swap partition of the other disk?


... just in case anyone is interested.

Issues, question and feedback on ncmpcpp

[l0f4r0]

Hi fellow users,

For those who are using ncmpcpp (ideally on stable like me but differences can 
be interesting as well):

1) Does lyric fetching work?
Not for me. Indeed, each integrated lyrics service (lyricswiki.com, 
azlyrics.com, genius.com, sing365.com...) returns "Not found".
Only "the Internet" returns something different: "The following site may 
contain lyrics for this song: http://www.google.com/url?q=XXX 
"
The final outuput is "Lyrics were not found" and indeed my ~/.lyrics folder 
stays empty.

Of course, I've tested on numerous & well known songs, with no avail.

I've not seen a bug filed on BTS, only noticed the GitHub issue 
https://github.com/ncmpcpp/ncmpcpp/issues/416 but the provided recommendation 
is to install a git version from the Arch User Repository...

2) In the media library, when "all tracks" is selected for central column 
"albums", is there a way to display on the right all songs sorted by name but 
not sorted by album first?
For me, it seems that this column can only aggregate all tracks, sorted by 
album and then by name. Not just by name, whatever the album is...
I haven't seen a dedicated parameter in the config file.
3) Do you succeed in modifying tags for opus songs?
For example, in the tag editor, I can change tags for flac songs with no 
problem.
But when I change tags for opus ones, I have no error message but the tags 
remain unchanged.
Maybe there is a dependency needed? If so, which one(s) please?
I only have libopus0, libopusfile0 and opus-tools for the time being.
4) What do you like the most with ncmpcpp?

I've installed it very recently on a single user computer and its high level of 
customization is definitely remarkable (especially song formatting).
Even if the software seems to have everything one could ask for (current and 
other playlists, advanced search, filters, both directories & media library 
views, visualizer, every shortcut imaginable), I haven't seen exclusive killing 
features so far.
Do you see some specific ones or is it the "whole set" that has charmed you?

Thank you in advance & have a great sunday :)
l0f4r0

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Ernest Adrogué]

2021-01-30, 23:15 (+0100); Orestes Mas escriu:
> Si ho apliquem al benefici econòmic que pot rendir una inversió, ho
> veig bé. Res a dir. Però d'això els anglesos no en diuen "feedback".

La terminologia econòmica es "rendiment" i no retorn.  Per exemple, "la
llei dels rendiments decreixents".  Si dius retorn també t'entendran
però sona estrany.

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Orestes Mas]

El 30 de gener de 2021 12:59:31 CET, Narcis Garcia  ha 
escrit:
>El 30/1/21 a les 2:08, ores...@riseup.net ha escrit:
>> A 2021-01-20 07:37, cubells escrigué:
>>> El 20/1/21 a les 7:33, Joan ha escrit:
>>>> Retroalimentació?

>
>Igual que en català hi ha un terme més o menys adequat per a cada
>situació, en anglès n'han trobat un d'aproximat, perquè al cap i a la
>fi
>tampoc allà volien parlar d'alimentar ningú.

Aquí discrepo. El concepte de retroalimentació (amb aquest nom) es comença a 
emprar per descriure situacions on la sortida d'un circuit electrònic s'acobla 
(generalment sense voler) a la seva entrada. Com que en argot d'enginyeria al 
fet d'aplicar un senyal a un circuit s'anomena "alimentar-lo", és del tot lògic 
que al fenomen que ens ocupa se l'anomeni retroalimentació.

Aquest és el cas original. Les derivacions i adaptacions que després se n'han 
fet s'ajustarà més o menys al significat primigeni, però això són figues d'un 
altre paner.

>En el context que s'ha esmentat aquí, encaixa molt bé un terme d'ús
>molt
>comú amb la mateixa finalitat, sempre amb article: el retorn o un
>retorn.

Si ho apliquem al benefici econòmic que pot rendir una inversió, ho veig bé. 
Res a dir. Però d'això els anglesos no en diuen "feedback".
>
>El què passa sovint, és que les TIC ens arriben a la península des dels
>EUA, i aleshores amb aquestes assimilem la modernitat cultural de fora
>i
>el primitivisme cultural nostre.

Si, això també. Però aquest no és el cas de la retroalimentació. Un dels 
primers professors que va ensenyar aquestes coses a Catalunya, almenys fins on 
jo sé, es deia Jaume Herranz i donava classes a la UPC (aleshores no es deia 
així) als anys 70. A mi en aquella època encara em mancaven alguns anyets per 
entrar-hi, però ell ja parlava de retroalimentació.

Orestes.
-- 
Enviat des del meu dispositiu Android amb el K-9 Mail. Disculpeu la brevetat.

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Narcis Garcia]

El 30/1/21 a les 2:08, ores...@riseup.net ha escrit:
> A 2021-01-20 07:37, cubells escrigué:
>> El 20/1/21 a les 7:33, Joan ha escrit:
>>> Retroalimentació?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Per cert, com es tradueix feedbck al català?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>> El millor és mirar com ho tenim traduït als projectes:
>>
>> https://www.softcatala.org/recursos/memories/?source=feedback=
> 
> Ui, això pot ser molt confús. Precisament aquest terme cadascú el
> tradueix com li dóna la gana, fins i tot dins de cada projecte concret.
> 
> En aquests casos cal anar a l'etimologia del mot: Si estem en un entorn
> relacionat amb el control automàtic, que és d'on prové el terme, caldrà
> traduir-lo per «retroalimentació», perquè és la tècnica per la qual
> s'agafa el senyal de sortida d'un sistema i es torna a connectar, més o
> menys modificat, a l'entrada. Per tant, estem «alimentant cap enrere» el
> sistema. *En cap cas* ho hem de traduir per «realimentació» (perquè no
> l'alimentem dues vegades) ni per «retroacció» (perquè en anglès no diuen
> pas «actionback», oi que no?).
> 
> Però a voltes aquest terme es fa servir amb un significat més genèric:
> proveir informació i/o comentaris a l'autor d'un programa, el professor
> d'una classe, etc. sobre alguna cosa. En aquest cas hi ha més llibertat
> per escollir la traducció i caldrà fer-ho en funció del context concret.
> 
> Orestes.
> 

Igual que en català hi ha un terme més o menys adequat per a cada
situació, en anglès n'han trobat un d'aproximat, perquè al cap i a la fi
tampoc allà volien parlar d'alimentar ningú.
Així no hem d'agafar com a «requisit» que el «feed» el traduïm
literalment amb la forma genèrica (verb alimentar, substantiu alimentació).

En el context que s'ha esmentat aquí, encaixa molt bé un terme d'ús molt
comú amb la mateixa finalitat, sempre amb article: el retorn o un retorn.
De ben segur que fa unes quantes dècades la gent ho hagués vist més
clar, ja que no calia anglificar un concepte que ja es pronunciava entre
persones.

El què passa sovint, és que les TIC ens arriben a la península des dels
EUA, i aleshores amb aquestes assimilem la modernitat cultural de fora i
el primitivisme cultural nostre.

Salut;
Narcís

-- 


__
I'm using this express-made address because personal addresses aren't
masked enough at this mail public archive. Public archive administrator
should fix this against automated addresses collectors.

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[cubells]

El 30/1/21 a les 2:08, ores...@riseup.net ha escrit:
> A 2021-01-20 07:37, cubells escrigué:
>> El 20/1/21 a les 7:33, Joan ha escrit:
>>> Retroalimentació?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Per cert, com es tradueix feedbck al català?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>> El millor és mirar com ho tenim traduït als projectes:
>>
>> https://www.softcatala.org/recursos/memories/?source=feedback=
> 
> Ui, això pot ser molt confús. Precisament aquest terme cadascú el
> tradueix com li dóna la gana, fins i tot dins de cada projecte concret.


Això és orientatiu solament. Però és una bona cullerada de per on van
les coses. Si està traduït és perquè algú ja s'ha plantejat quina és la
millor traducció i fins i tot pot haver-se discutit a les llistes de
terminologia que tenim i fins i tot haver fet alguna consulta al termcat.

I això de que cadascú tradueix com li dóna la gana és cert fins a cert
punt. Des de softcatalà fem una tasca immensa per aconseguir que sigui
el mateix en tots els projectes. Per això els enllaços a la part dreta
de l'informe de qualitat.

Evidentment, no podem abastar-ho tot, però com dic al principi, és
orientatiu.

-- 
Atentament, cubells.
--

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[orestes]

A 2021-01-20 07:37, cubells escrigué:
> El 20/1/21 a les 7:33, Joan ha escrit:
>> Retroalimentació?
>>
>>>>
>>>> Per cert, com es tradueix feedbck al català?
>>>>
>>>>
> 
> El millor és mirar com ho tenim traduït als projectes:
> 
> https://www.softcatala.org/recursos/memories/?source=feedback=

Ui, això pot ser molt confús. Precisament aquest terme cadascú el
tradueix com li dóna la gana, fins i tot dins de cada projecte concret.

En aquests casos cal anar a l'etimologia del mot: Si estem en un entorn
relacionat amb el control automàtic, que és d'on prové el terme, caldrà
traduir-lo per «retroalimentació», perquè és la tècnica per la qual
s'agafa el senyal de sortida d'un sistema i es torna a connectar, més o
menys modificat, a l'entrada. Per tant, estem «alimentant cap enrere» el
sistema. *En cap cas* ho hem de traduir per «realimentació» (perquè no
l'alimentem dues vegades) ni per «retroacció» (perquè en anglès no diuen
pas «actionback», oi que no?).

Però a voltes aquest terme es fa servir amb un significat més genèric:
proveir informació i/o comentaris a l'autor d'un programa, el professor
d'una classe, etc. sobre alguna cosa. En aquest cas hi ha més llibertat
per escollir la traducció i caldrà fer-ho en funció del context concret.

Orestes.

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Adrià]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 07:35:26PM +0100, Alex Muntada wrote:
> Hola Adrià

Hola Alex (que no t'he dit res abans),

> 
> > La meva percepció no és ben bé així sinó és que haver de donar
> > feedback fa mandra, per tant és més fàcil dir que tot és de
> > color de rosa i no hi ha res dolent a dir.
> 
> Suposo que les coses positives que s'esmenten són genèriques,
> sense entrar gaire en detalls perquè per fer una anàlisi més
> profunda haurien d'haver dedicat més estona. És això? Aquesta
> no me l'esperava.

No necessàriament genèriques: per exemple, no crec que ningú vingui a
dir que X és molt amable perquè sempre m'aguanta la porta quan ens
trobem a l'oficina (bé, en el cas que ens trobessim a les oficines)
sinó més aviat, si algú ha fet algú ha fet una contribució constant o
et comparteix alguna eina/documentació que t'estalviï hores de
feina/investigació. Doncs s'esmenta tot això.
> 
> > A més hi ha el rumor que donar feedback "negatiu" pot afectar
> > d'alguna manera el company.
> 
> Entenc que això és un problema quan el feedback es refereix a la
> persona més que a la feina, oi?

Jo diria que les dues opcions: per exemple si algú enrareix l'ambient
de treball i això ocasiona que altres no estiguin còmodes, s'ha de
dir (per trobar-hi una solució, no per "castigar-la"). I si algú fa un
codi molt brut, també. Potser en el primer cas està frustrada amb un
problema i no s'atreveix a demanar ajuda, i potser en el segon no s'ha
plantejat que en un moment de menys feina podria fer-ne una
re-implementació i explicar-ne la importància als companys en una
xerrada de 15 minuts (són exemples inventats).

> Teniu experiències en fer revisió de codi? Jo vaig preparar un
> «coding dojo» a la feina i per rebre feedback vaig plantejar les
> preguntes següents per fer reflexionar sobre l'exercici i les
> diferents formes en què cadascú l'havia resolt:
> 
> - Què us ha agradat.
> - Què us ha sorprès.
> - Què no heu entès.
> - Què heu après.
> - Què faríeu diferent el proper cop.
> - Què us ha semblat l'exercici.
> - Què us ha semblat l'enunciat.

No en tinc constància, però ho trobo interessant (sí que hi ha
"retrospectives" de la metodologia "Agile", tot i que no és el
mateix).
Hi donaré una volta a veure si es podria encaixar d'alguna manera.
Moltes gràcies.

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Alex Muntada]

Hola Adrià

> La meva percepció no és ben bé així sinó és que haver de donar
> feedback fa mandra, per tant és més fàcil dir que tot és de
> color de rosa i no hi ha res dolent a dir.

Suposo que les coses positives que s'esmenten són genèriques,
sense entrar gaire en detalls perquè per fer una anàlisi més
profunda haurien d'haver dedicat més estona. És això? Aquesta
no me l'esperava.

> A més hi ha el rumor que donar feedback "negatiu" pot afectar
> d'alguna manera el company.

Entenc que això és un problema quan el feedback es refereix a la
persona més que a la feina, oi?

Teniu experiències en fer revisió de codi? Jo vaig preparar un
«coding dojo» a la feina i per rebre feedback vaig plantejar les
preguntes següents per fer reflexionar sobre l'exercici i les
diferents formes en què cadascú l'havia resolt:

- Què us ha agradat.
- Què us ha sorprès.
- Què no heu entès.
- Què heu après.
- Què faríeu diferent el proper cop.
- Què us ha semblat l'exercici.
- Què us ha semblat l'enunciat.

Salut,
Alex

--
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   Alex Muntada 
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   Debian Developer  log.alexm.org
  ⠈⠳⣄



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Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Adrià]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 11:38:31PM +0100, Alex Muntada wrote:
> Hola Adrià
> 
> > Dit això, deixeu-me ressaltar punts que són bàsics: comunicació
> > clara i concisa, assertivitat i empatia. I per fer tot això, a
> > banda que hi ha tècniques com la del sandvitx (...) es posa
> > èmfasi en fer-ho en persona sempre que es pugui, perquè el
> > llenguatge corporal és important. És a dir, que un missatge
> > escrit sempre tindrà mancances.
> 
> No coneixia la tècnica aquesta del sandvitx. Suposo que un repte
> important deu ser trobar coses positives perquè estem força més
> acostumats a veure només les negatives. Com ho entreneu això?

La meva percepció no és ben bé així sinó és que haver de donar 
feedback fa mandra, per tant és més fàcil dir que tot és de color de 
rosa i no hi ha res dolent a dir.
A més hi ha el rumor que donar feedback "negatiu" pot afectar d'alguna
manera el company.

Per pal·liar-ho, a més de predicar amb l'exemple, s'ha estructurat una
formació amb cursos per comunicar de forma eficient i com donar aquest 
feedback, a més d'altres temes satèl·lit (el que es coneix com "soft 
skills") però de forma que tinguin relació uns amb els altres. I tot
això sumat d'un acompanyament personal perquè cada persona té
necessitats específiques (tot absolutament voluntari).

> > Dir "això és una merda" (que ningú ha dit) podríem transformar-
> > ho en "Acabo de veure el que has fet i es nota que t'hi ha
> > esforçat molt; enhorabona. De totes maneres has pensat en
> > canviar X per Y? Potser així seria més fàcil aconseguir
> > l'objectiu Z que t'has proposat".
> 
> Això m'ha fet recordar el mètode de la comunicació no violenta
> d'en Marshall Rosenberg.

Gràcies per l'apunt (no el coneixia) i a la Wikipèdia per ser-hi quan
se la necessita :-)

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Alex Muntada]

Hola Adrià

> Dit això, deixeu-me ressaltar punts que són bàsics: comunicació
> clara i concisa, assertivitat i empatia. I per fer tot això, a
> banda que hi ha tècniques com la del sandvitx (...) es posa
> èmfasi en fer-ho en persona sempre que es pugui, perquè el
> llenguatge corporal és important. És a dir, que un missatge
> escrit sempre tindrà mancances.

No coneixia la tècnica aquesta del sandvitx. Suposo que un repte
important deu ser trobar coses positives perquè estem força més
acostumats a veure només les negatives. Com ho entreneu això?

> Dir "això és una merda" (que ningú ha dit) podríem transformar-
> ho en "Acabo de veure el que has fet i es nota que t'hi ha
> esforçat molt; enhorabona. De totes maneres has pensat en
> canviar X per Y? Potser així seria més fàcil aconseguir
> l'objectiu Z que t'has proposat".

Això m'ha fet recordar el mètode de la comunicació no violenta
d'en Marshall Rosenberg.

Salut i moltes gràcies!
Alex

--
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   Alex Muntada 
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   Debian Developer  log.alexm.org
  ⠈⠳⣄



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Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Narcis Garcia]

Jo pel «feedback» faig servir el terme «retorn», i reviso bé l'encaix
dins la frase (si li cal alguna matisació) per a què tingui tot el
sentit i es vegi el més natural possible.
A la inmensa majoria de casos, la traducció literal (retroalimentació o
retroacció) sobrecarreguen per al llenguatge popular, el del/es usuàries.

I d'altres termes, també parlaria del GamBas com a programari i del
BASIC com a llenguatge.


Narcis Garcia

__
I'm using this dedicated address because personal addresses aren't
masked enough at this mail public archive. Public archive administrator
should fix this against automated addresses collectors.
El 20/1/21 a les 6:24, Joan Baptista ha escrit:
> Com deia Jack el destripador : "Anem per parts" ;-)
> 
> 1- Gràcies a totes les persones que heu llegit el meu "correu-rotllo"
> sobre el primer "pogramita" que faig per Linux, amb Gambas 3.x
> 
> 2- No era la meva intenció crear tanta controversia, i tampoc es el
> objectiu de Tria Sistema Operatiu <https://tria-s-o-1-2.sourceforge.io>
> 
> 3- Per si la meva opinió (basada en la meva experiència en aquests
> temes) li pot servir a algú en totes les empreses que he treballat (mes
> de 20, tant en tasques relacionades amb informàtica i telecomunicacions
> com en altres tasques) a l'hora de fer-li una crítica negativa a algú
> (quan és necessari perquè es pugui arribar al objectiu desitjat i no per
> aparentar saber mes o aconseguir reconeixement a l'empresa) sempre és
> millor fer-ho en privat que en public, ja que d'aquesta manera s'humilia
> menys a la persona que ha de rebre la crítica, a mes de que aquesta
> persona té mes possibilitats d'explicar BE perquè ho ha fet d'una manera
> i no d'una altra i fins i tot existeix la possibilitat remota que
> descobrim que el problema no era aquella persona, sinó que el que ha
> passat es que altres persones del mateix departament o altres de la
> mateixa empresa han deixat de fer el que havien de fer i/o fan malament
> la seva feina i resulta que el teòric "infractor" porta temps saturat
> intentant fer la seva feina a la vegada que fent/corregint la dels
> altres. Per tant, segons quins missatges, serien molt mes útils a
> l'adreça e-mail privada enlloc de a la llista de correu.
> 
> 4- Sóc conscient (com ja vaig dir) que a dia d'avui encara sóc un
> programador mediocre de Visual Basic i bastant dolent (tirant a terrible
> i penós) de Gambas 3.12.x i Gambas 3.14.x però en els 32 anys que vaig
> viure a un "poblet" anomenat Barcelona (1982-2014) vaig tenir la gran
> sort de treballar amb un munt de programadors MOLT BONS en diferents
> llenguatges de programació (però no amb Gambas ... que jo sapigués) i
> van ser molt pocs els genis que van tenir la bondat de compartir el seu
> coneixement amb mi i la major part d'ells es limitaven a utilitzar la
> seva inteligencia (poca o molta) per escalar dins l'empresa, encara que
> fos a costa d'amagar el que feien malament i destacar el que feien bé,
> atribuint-se mèrits que no els hi corresponen, per tant, agraeixo
> especialment al Sr. Alex Muntada (espero que no li molesti el tracte de
> vostè) la seva crìtica constructiva, ja que es la que mes m'està ajudant
> (tècnica i emocionalment) últimament, doncs des del setembre de 2014 que
> visc a Salou, i fins i tot havent fet MOLTS esforços en aquests últims 5
> anys per contactar al Camp de Tarragona amb gent que estimi *compartir
> *coneixement en informàtica i telecomunicacions, en aquest sentit, sento
> que visc en una illa deserta i si no fos per correus com els que escriu
> el GRAN Alex Muntada, ara mateix ja estaria un altre cop dedicant mes
> temps a buscar cracks de M$ Win, VB.net, Office 365 ... i merdes per
> l'estil, enlloc de tornar a esforçar-me en:
> 
> A) buscar ajuda / suport ... *de qui sigui*: encara que visqui al Japó,
> només parla un dialecte del japonès que només coneixen 4 persones al mon
> i no sàpiga ni la diferència entre apagar i reiniciar.
> 
> B) seguir aprenent Linux (preferentment Debian GNU/Linux o distribucions
> que jo anomeno ".deb") i programació en Gambas
> 
> C) seguir esforçant-me per compartir coneixement
> 
> 
> Per últim ... intentant posar una mica d'humor i per treure-li ferro a
> tanta controversia (sense ànim d'ofendre ningú) per a mi ... en català
> ... feedbck ... jo ho escric "feedback" com ho has posat tu en el
> "subject" (assumpte). Però si resulta que li has d'escriure a algú que
> té odi i / o pànic al idioma anglès ... doncs jo posaria "comentari(s)
> de seguiment" o "opinió personal sobre la tasca/feina realitzada" ... i
> és per això que a xerrameques com jo, que ens enrollem mes que les
> persianes, paraules com "feedback"

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[cubells]

El 20/1/21 a les 7:33, Joan ha escrit:
> Retroalimentació?
> 
>>>
>>> Per cert, com es tradueix feedbck al català?
>>>
>>>  

El millor és mirar com ho tenim traduït als projectes:

https://www.softcatala.org/recursos/memories/?source=feedback=


-- 
Atentament, cubells.
--

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Joan]

Retroalimentació?

> >
> > Per cert, com es tradueix feedbck al català?
> >
> >  

Pd.: respecte al teu comentari, Adrià, de ma esquerra, motivació
d'equips, etc.: molt d'acord. És un àmbit en el que jo mateix he de
millorar molt, però trobo que paga la pena anar en aquesta línia i no la
contrària, per començar, fent-ne proselitisme, etc.


-- 
Joan Cervan i Andreu
http://personal.calbasi.net

"El meu paper no és transformar el món ni l'home sinó, potser, el de
ser útil, des del meu lloc, als pocs valors sense els quals un món no
val la pena viure'l" A. Camus

i pels que teniu fe:
"Déu no és la Veritat, la Veritat és Déu"
Gandhi

Re: [OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Joan Baptista]

Com deia Jack el destripador : "Anem per parts" ;-)

1- Gràcies a totes les persones que heu llegit el meu "correu-rotllo" sobre
el primer "pogramita" que faig per Linux, amb Gambas 3.x

2- No era la meva intenció crear tanta controversia, i tampoc es el
objectiu de Tria Sistema Operatiu <https://tria-s-o-1-2.sourceforge.io>

3- Per si la meva opinió (basada en la meva experiència en aquests temes)
li pot servir a algú en totes les empreses que he treballat (mes de 20,
tant en tasques relacionades amb informàtica i telecomunicacions com en
altres tasques) a l'hora de fer-li una crítica negativa a algú (quan és
necessari perquè es pugui arribar al objectiu desitjat i no per aparentar
saber mes o aconseguir reconeixement a l'empresa) sempre és millor fer-ho
en privat que en public, ja que d'aquesta manera s'humilia menys a la
persona que ha de rebre la crítica, a mes de que aquesta persona té mes
possibilitats d'explicar BE perquè ho ha fet d'una manera i no d'una altra
i fins i tot existeix la possibilitat remota que descobrim que el problema
no era aquella persona, sinó que el que ha passat es que altres persones
del mateix departament o altres de la mateixa empresa han deixat de fer el
que havien de fer i/o fan malament la seva feina i resulta que el teòric
"infractor" porta temps saturat intentant fer la seva feina a la vegada que
fent/corregint la dels altres. Per tant, segons quins missatges, serien
molt mes útils a l'adreça e-mail privada enlloc de a la llista de correu.

4- Sóc conscient (com ja vaig dir) que a dia d'avui encara sóc un
programador mediocre de Visual Basic i bastant dolent (tirant a terrible i
penós) de Gambas 3.12.x i Gambas 3.14.x però en els 32 anys que vaig viure
a un "poblet" anomenat Barcelona (1982-2014) vaig tenir la gran sort de
treballar amb un munt de programadors MOLT BONS en diferents llenguatges de
programació (però no amb Gambas ... que jo sapigués) i van ser molt pocs
els genis que van tenir la bondat de compartir el seu coneixement amb mi i
la major part d'ells es limitaven a utilitzar la seva inteligencia (poca o
molta) per escalar dins l'empresa, encara que fos a costa d'amagar el que
feien malament i destacar el que feien bé, atribuint-se mèrits que no els
hi corresponen, per tant, agraeixo especialment al Sr. Alex Muntada (espero
que no li molesti el tracte de vostè) la seva crìtica constructiva, ja que
es la que mes m'està ajudant (tècnica i emocionalment) últimament, doncs
des del setembre de 2014 que visc a Salou, i fins i tot havent fet MOLTS
esforços en aquests últims 5 anys per contactar al Camp de Tarragona amb
gent que estimi *compartir *coneixement en informàtica i telecomunicacions,
en aquest sentit, sento que visc en una illa deserta i si no fos per
correus com els que escriu el GRAN Alex Muntada, ara mateix ja estaria un
altre cop dedicant mes temps a buscar cracks de M$ Win, VB.net, Office 365
... i merdes per l'estil, enlloc de tornar a esforçar-me en:

A) buscar ajuda / suport ... *de qui sigui*: encara que visqui al Japó,
només parla un dialecte del japonès que només coneixen 4 persones al mon i
no sàpiga ni la diferència entre apagar i reiniciar.

B) seguir aprenent Linux (preferentment Debian GNU/Linux o distribucions
que jo anomeno ".deb") i programació en Gambas

C) seguir esforçant-me per compartir coneixement


Per últim ... intentant posar una mica d'humor i per treure-li ferro a
tanta controversia (sense ànim d'ofendre ningú) per a mi ... en català ...
feedbck ... jo ho escric "feedback" com ho has posat tu en el "subject"
(assumpte). Però si resulta que li has d'escriure a algú que té odi i / o
pànic al idioma anglès ... doncs jo posaria "comentari(s) de seguiment" o
"opinió personal sobre la tasca/feina realitzada" ... i és per això que a
xerrameques com jo, que ens enrollem mes que les persianes, paraules com
"feedback" o "free" o "feelings" ens ajuden i agraden, ja que en anglès,
escrivint molt poc, es pot dir MOLT.


(bu)fff :-)

Joan Baptista
joanbapti...@gmail.com
Tel. 665 245 561


Missatge de Adrià  del dia dt., 19 de gen. 2021 a les 23:41:

> Hola a tothom,
>
> no volia escriure perquè ja ho he fet massa últimament, però aquí hi
> sóc de nou; ja em fareu callar si de cas.
>
> No pretenc erigir-me com a moderador ni donar lliçons de res, perquè
> ni em correspon, ni sóc la persona adient ni tinc coneixements per
> fer-ho. Però voldria compartir quatre coses que he anat aprenent i
> posant en pràctica (o intentant-ho) en els últims temps.
>
> A l'empresa on treballo, pel fet de tenir persones provinents de
> diverses cultures, es dediquen hores a donar, rebre i fomentar el
> feedbck i donar-lo d'una forma responsable i efectiva.
> I dic jo que, si una empresa dedica recursos a aquesta qüestió, vull
> pensar que és perquè no és tr

[OT] Feedback (era Re: Algú vol col·laborar en aquest projecte?)

[Adrià]

Hola a tothom,

no volia escriure perquè ja ho he fet massa últimament, però aquí hi 
sóc de nou; ja em fareu callar si de cas.

No pretenc erigir-me com a moderador ni donar lliçons de res, perquè 
ni em correspon, ni sóc la persona adient ni tinc coneixements per 
fer-ho. Però voldria compartir quatre coses que he anat aprenent i 
posant en pràctica (o intentant-ho) en els últims temps.

A l'empresa on treballo, pel fet de tenir persones provinents de 
diverses cultures, es dediquen hores a donar, rebre i fomentar el 
feedbck i donar-lo d'una forma responsable i efectiva.
I dic jo que, si una empresa dedica recursos a aquesta qüestió, vull 
pensar que és perquè no és trivial (i reconec que jo no li donava 
prou importància).
Ja sé que aquesta llista és per qüestions més divertides com 
Debian però crec que és important.

Dit això, deixeu-me ressaltar punts que són bàsics: comunicació 
clara i concisa, assertivitat i empatia. I per fer tot això, a banda 
que hi ha tècniques com la del sandvitx (començar amb un aspecte 
positiu, continuar amb un de millorable i acabar amb un altre positiu)
es posa èmfasi en fer-ho en persona sempre que es pugui, perquè el 
llenguatge corporal és important. És a dir, que un missatge escrit 
sempre tindrà mancances.

De feedback negatiu no n'hi ha; és inútil si de cas, en tant que no 
serveix pel que se suposa (ja sigui reforçar els punts forts o 
millorar els febles).

Dir "això és una merda" (que ningú ha dit) podríem transformar-ho en 
"Acabo de veure el que has fet i es nota que t'hi ha esforçat molt;
enhorabona. De totes maneres has pensat en canviar X per Y? Potser 
així seria més fàcil aconseguir l'objectiu Z que t'has proposat".

El que esperaria d'aquest missatge no és que arregli el món ni que 
faci que Debian funcioni (encara) millor al meu ordinador sinó que 
algú (com jo) es pugui plantejar que totes aquestes qüestions van més
enllà dels aspectes tècnics i són igualment importants. I per tant cal
reflexionar-hi una mica.

Per cert, com es tradueix feedbck al català?

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:24:03PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 01:52:30PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > https://www.mailop.org/
> 
> Now this is the list that I want to be on. But, I am getting SSL errors trying
> to connect to https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Yes; unfortunately it is in a transition period between admin teams
as the old administrators haven't had time to maintain things like
renewal of the TLS cert¹. As far as I understand the new admin team
is ready to take over but are waiting on the old admins to do some
things. For what it's worth I know it is simply a case of an expired
TLS cert and it is safe in this case to proceed anyway.

Cheers,
Andy

¹ Obviously quite embarrassing for a list of / catering to
  professional email admins. There are employees of Google. Yahoo!
  and Microsoft on this list.

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[황병희]

> Good for you, but, I guess you are using mailgun for outgoing.

Yes, it is real good for me.

$ cat /etc/postfix/sender_relay (Postfix in Google Compute Engine)
soyeo...@yw.doraji.xyz [smtp.mailgun.org]:2525
soyeo...@bullseye.yw.doraji.xyz [email-smtp.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com]:2587
soyeo...@red-october.yw.doraji.xyz [email-smtp.us-east-1.amazonaws.com]:2587

Sincerely, Linux fan Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _和合團結_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Carl Fink]

On 7/31/20 3:08 PM, Celejar wrote:

"No Support Linux Hosting" only offers web hosting, not VPSs, so port
blocking isn't applicable. For VPS hosting, they send you to their
"sister company" "No Support VPS Hosting", whose price ($15 per month)
is hardly rock-bottom (Digital Ocean starts at $5 per month):

http://www.nosupportlinuxhosting.com/VPSHosting.html
http://nosupportvpshosting.com/index.php


I haven't used the service in almost 10 years. It seems that they
might have changed things.

--
Carl Fink   nitpick...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Celejar]

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 07:25:42 -0400
Carl Fink  wrote:

...

> I have never heard that. Many home ISPs block those ports, but VPS
> providers generally are serving a business market. My own VPS is
> with RimuHosting (https://rimuhosting.com) and they block no ports.
> The most economical one I have heard of
> (https://nosupportlinuxhosting.com/) certainly does not, and you will
> find it hard to beat the price.

"No Support Linux Hosting" only offers web hosting, not VPSs, so port
blocking isn't applicable. For VPS hosting, they send you to their
"sister company" "No Support VPS Hosting", whose price ($15 per month)
is hardly rock-bottom (Digital Ocean starts at $5 per month):

http://www.nosupportlinuxhosting.com/VPSHosting.html
http://nosupportvpshosting.com/index.php

Celejar

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[tomas]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 09:51:57PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:30:53AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:

[...]

> > I just have a virtual machine "out there" on a hoster. I share the physical
> > machine with a couple (~4) of friends.
> > 
> > Bandwidth is great, uptime is great, it's just a bit pricier than "gmail".
> > But not much.
> 
> Sounds like a cool setup. If you and your friends are open to host another VM
> then we can talk specifics off-list.

Hm. They host customer stuff there: I don't think they'd be open. But I'd
let you know in that case...


Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Carl Fink]

On 7/31/20 12:31 PM, Didar Hossain wrote:

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:25:42AM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:

On 7/31/20 3:29 AM, Didar Hossain wrote:

I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP ports
(25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their network.
This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my design has
separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.

I have never heard that. Many home ISPs block those ports, but VPS
providers generally are serving a business market. My own VPS is
with RimuHosting (https://rimuhosting.com) and they block no ports.
The most economical one I have heard of
(https://nosupportlinuxhosting.com/) certainly does not, and you will
find it hard to beat the price.

Ahh, RimuHosting is indeed on my option list. The other guys are providing
CPanel/WHM preconfigured instances; I want to fully customize my minimal Buster
instance.


You mentioned wanting your host to be physically based in India,
but I'm not sure that's important unless you expect very heavy
traffic and need very short response times. My Rimuhosting VPS
has moved from New Zealand to Long Island, New York (east cost
of the USA) to Dallas, Texas (southwestern USA, about 2400 km
away) and for what I do (web hosting and mail, mostly) it has
made no detectable difference.

Hosting in India is a preference, not a hard requirement. I am happy to know
that Rimu are not blocking ports.


For whatever it is worth, my Debian VPS on Rimuhosting is
currently serving four low-traffic domains, for web and mail,
including three WordPress instances. Postfix for MTA,
Dovecot for IMAP, RoundCube for webmail. I don't bother
hosting my own DNS at the moment.

--
Carl Fink   nitpick...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Henning Follmann]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:08:09PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 08:00:32AM -0400, Henning Follmann wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or 
> > > any
> > > other commercial service because I would like to have control over my 
> > > email.
> > > 
> > > I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP 
> > > ports
> > > (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their 
> > > network.
> > > This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my 
> > > design has
> > > separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
> > > 
> > > I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> > > datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> > > 
> > > Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS 
> > > providers
> > > who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.
> > > 
> > 
> > I think all ISP should be fine. I sometime feel for a mailserver it is
> > more important to have a decent DNS provider than where you actually
> > run your mailserver. Because as a minimum you want to set up
> > SPF and DKIM.
> > Most ISP require to register an outgoing mail server with them. This
> > is also important that they set up a reverse ptr for your host.
> 
> Cheap US$5 cloud instances are super attractive propositions for spammers who
> have absolutely abused these providers and made it difficult for legitimate
> senders to host on them.
> 
> I have DNS, SPF, DKIM and DMARC under control. But, IP/ASN reputation is
> something that I have to factor in because a lot of my counter party receivers
> are on Office365 and G Suite who would block ill reputed networks.
> 
> > One note on Digital Ocean. In my experience there is a lot of spam
> > originating from Digital Ocean. This potentially could cause you
> > some trouble. But this might be just my personal "feeling". I never
> > ran the numbers on ISP spam submission rates.
> 
> True, I remember seeing some statistics about spam originating from them and
> that is why they have recently started blocking ports 25 throughout.
> 
> > I currently use AWS for my mailservers. In the past I used
> > A1flexus for dedicated servers. They are on Long Island
> > and were very "linux friendly" at that time.
> 
> Does your AWS instance receive and send over port 25?
>

Yes,
AWS requires to "register" your mailserver.
They allow for a small amount of out traffic without that, but
if you intend to use this as a proper mail server, you have
to tell them. I've never been on any dns-blocklist so far and I do check
regularly for all my server.

-H

-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Didar Hossain]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 01:52:30PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> > I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> > datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> 
> You will be fine almost anywhere (as long as you find the service
> reliable) for inbound email, but it's sending where you will have
> issues.
> 
> Most cheap VM providers are a spam sewer and you will experience
> significant difficulties getting large email service providers like
> gmail to consistently accept your email if you send from such a
> network neighbourhood. I would include Linode, DigitalOcean, Hetzner
> and OVH in the "spam sewer" classification.

Exactly my fear and that is why I am on the hunt for a reputable IP/ASN space.

> If you're determined to do it, at least make sure you abide by the
> real world best practices for sending email:
> 
> https://bridge.grumpy-troll.org/2020/07/small-mailserver-bcp/

That is a comprehensive list and I intend to implement at least MTA-STS/TLSRPT
and consider SPF/DKIM/DMARC as standard stuff.

> I have to declare an interest because I operate a VM hosting
> company, but I speak on this as a recipient of email and as a member
> of the mailop mailing list where every month we see people
> complaining they can't get mail out of a spam sewer and into gmail.
> 
> https://www.mailop.org/

Now this is the list that I want to be on. But, I am getting SSL errors trying
to connect to https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

> https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Added for consideration.


Kind regards,
Didar




-- 
"Virtual" means never knowing where your next byte is coming from.

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Didar Hossain]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:36:46PM +0900, 황병희 wrote:
> Didar Hossain  writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or 
> > any
> > other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.
> >
> > I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP 
> > ports
> > (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their 
> > network.
> > This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my 
> > design has
> > separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
> >
> > I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> > datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> >
> > Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS 
> > providers
> > who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.
> 
> If you intrested in Google Compute Engine, this is useful:
> https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/tutorials/sending-mail/using-mailgun?hl=en

I don't want to use mailgun/sendgrid/mandrill to send emails, I just want to
take control of my email.

> Also we can open (ingress) port 25 for MX at there Google Compute
> Engine. Personally i'm using Google Compute Engine -- Ubuntu
> 18.04. And running MTA is Postfix.

Good for you, but, I guess you are using mailgun for outgoing.

Kind regards,
Didar


-- 
NO OPIUM-SMOKING IN THE ELEVATORS
-- sign in the Rand Hotel, New York, 1907

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Didar Hossain]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 08:00:32AM -0400, Henning Follmann wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or 
> > any
> > other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.
> > 
> > I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP 
> > ports
> > (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their 
> > network.
> > This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my 
> > design has
> > separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
> > 
> > I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> > datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> > 
> > Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS 
> > providers
> > who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.
> > 
> 
> I think all ISP should be fine. I sometime feel for a mailserver it is
> more important to have a decent DNS provider than where you actually
> run your mailserver. Because as a minimum you want to set up
> SPF and DKIM.
> Most ISP require to register an outgoing mail server with them. This
> is also important that they set up a reverse ptr for your host.

Cheap US$5 cloud instances are super attractive propositions for spammers who
have absolutely abused these providers and made it difficult for legitimate
senders to host on them.

I have DNS, SPF, DKIM and DMARC under control. But, IP/ASN reputation is
something that I have to factor in because a lot of my counter party receivers
are on Office365 and G Suite who would block ill reputed networks.

> One note on Digital Ocean. In my experience there is a lot of spam
> originating from Digital Ocean. This potentially could cause you
> some trouble. But this might be just my personal "feeling". I never
> ran the numbers on ISP spam submission rates.

True, I remember seeing some statistics about spam originating from them and
that is why they have recently started blocking ports 25 throughout.

> I currently use AWS for my mailservers. In the past I used
> A1flexus for dedicated servers. They are on Long Island
> and were very "linux friendly" at that time.

Does your AWS instance receive and send over port 25?

Kind regards,
Didar

-- 
Sun in the night, everyone is together,
Ascending into the heavens, life is forever.
-- Brand X, "Moroccan Roll/Sun in the Night"

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Didar Hossain]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:25:42AM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> On 7/31/20 3:29 AM, Didar Hossain wrote:
> > I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP 
> > ports
> > (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their 
> > network.
> > This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my 
> > design has
> > separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
> 
> I have never heard that. Many home ISPs block those ports, but VPS
> providers generally are serving a business market. My own VPS is
> with RimuHosting (https://rimuhosting.com) and they block no ports.
> The most economical one I have heard of
> (https://nosupportlinuxhosting.com/) certainly does not, and you will
> find it hard to beat the price.

Ahh, RimuHosting is indeed on my option list. The other guys are providing
CPanel/WHM preconfigured instances; I want to fully customize my minimal Buster
instance.

> You mentioned wanting your host to be physically based in India,
> but I'm not sure that's important unless you expect very heavy
> traffic and need very short response times. My Rimuhosting VPS
> has moved from New Zealand to Long Island, New York (east cost
> of the USA) to Dallas, Texas (southwestern USA, about 2400 km
> away) and for what I do (web hosting and mail, mostly) it has
> made no detectable difference.

Hosting in India is a preference, not a hard requirement. I am happy to know
that Rimu are not blocking ports.

Kind regards,
Didar

-- 
 *snipsnip*
 oh dear, is that the sound of fortune-database editing?
 uh oh
 Yes  =>

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Didar Hossain]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 07:05:52AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:59:06 +0530
> Didar Hossain  wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or 
> > any
> > other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.
> > 
> > I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP 
> > ports
> > (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their 
> > network.
> > This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my 
> > design has
> > separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
> > 
> > I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> > datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> > 
> > Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS 
> > providers
> > who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.
> 
> Have you seen Ars Technica's series on self-hosting email? It
> may be a bit dated (it's from 2014), but they're pretty good on such
> topics. They mention a couple of VPS providers (A Small Orange,
> Lithium Hosting), but I took a quick look, and they somewhat pricey:
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/02/how-to-run-your-own-e-mail-server-with-your-own-domain-part-1/

Yes, those hosting providers to seem a little pricey, but if I am able send and
receive emails without *much* problems I can consider them.

Kind regards,
Didar

-- 
One can search the brain with a microscope and not find the
mind, and can search the stars with a telescope and not find God.
-- J. Gustav White

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Didar Hossain]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:30:53AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or 
> > any
> > other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.
> 
> I just have a virtual machine "out there" on a hoster. I share the physical
> machine with a couple (~4) of friends.
> 
> Bandwidth is great, uptime is great, it's just a bit pricier than "gmail".
> But not much.

Sounds like a cool setup. If you and your friends are open to host another VM
then we can talk specifics off-list.

Kind regards,
Didar

-- 
Q:  How does the Polish Constitution differ from the American?
A:  Under the Polish Constitution citizens are guaranteed freedom of
speech, but under the United States constitution they are
guaranteed freedom after speech.
-- being told in Poland, 1987

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 01:52:30PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> > I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> > datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> 
> You will be fine almost anywhere (as long as you find the service
> reliable) for inbound email, but it's sending where you will have
> issues.
> 
> Most cheap VM providers are a spam sewer and you will experience
> significant difficulties getting large email service providers like
> gmail to consistently accept your email if you send from such a
> network neighbourhood. I would include Linode, DigitalOcean, Hetzner
> and OVH in the "spam sewer" classification.
> 
> If you're determined to do it, at least make sure you abide by the
> real world best practices for sending email:
> 
> https://bridge.grumpy-troll.org/2020/07/small-mailserver-bcp/
> 
> I have to declare an interest because I operate a VM hosting
> company, but I speak on this as a recipient of email and as a member
> of the mailop mailing list where every month we see people
> complaining they can't get mail out of a spam sewer and into gmail.
> 
When it comes to Linode I wonder how much of what you have observed
results from Linode as a service provider in general and how much from
the individuals running the actual services.  In my case, I have used
Linode exclusively for more than 4 years for both inbound and outbound
mail.  Apart from one of the IPs I was initially assigned being on some
blacklists (a situation which was easily corrected), I have not
experienced any problems with major providers (GMail, Yahoo, Microsoft,
etc.) rejecting or blocking my mail servers.

If Linode had systemic problems of the nature you describe I would have
expected to have actually experienced difficulty with mail from my
servers to those major providers.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?

You will be fine almost anywhere (as long as you find the service
reliable) for inbound email, but it's sending where you will have
issues.

Most cheap VM providers are a spam sewer and you will experience
significant difficulties getting large email service providers like
gmail to consistently accept your email if you send from such a
network neighbourhood. I would include Linode, DigitalOcean, Hetzner
and OVH in the "spam sewer" classification.

If you're determined to do it, at least make sure you abide by the
real world best practices for sending email:

https://bridge.grumpy-troll.org/2020/07/small-mailserver-bcp/

I have to declare an interest because I operate a VM hosting
company, but I speak on this as a recipient of email and as a member
of the mailop mailing list where every month we see people
complaining they can't get mail out of a spam sewer and into gmail.

https://www.mailop.org/

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[황병희]

Didar Hossain  writes:

> Hi,
>
> I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or any
> other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.
>
> I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP ports
> (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their network.
> This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my design 
> has
> separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
>
> I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
>
> Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS providers
> who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.

If you intrested in Google Compute Engine, this is useful:
https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/tutorials/sending-mail/using-mailgun?hl=en

Also we can open (ingress) port 25 for MX at there Google Compute
Engine. Personally i'm using Google Compute Engine -- Ubuntu
18.04. And running MTA is Postfix.

Sincerely, Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _和合團結_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Henning Follmann]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or any
> other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.
> 
> I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP ports
> (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their network.
> This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my design 
> has
> separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
> 
> I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> 
> Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS providers
> who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.
> 

I think all ISP should be fine. I sometime feel for a mailserver it is
more important to have a decent DNS provider than where you actually
run your mailserver. Because as a minimum you want to set up
SPF and DKIM.
Most ISP require to register an outgoing mail server with them. This
is also important that they set up a reverse ptr for your host.

One note on Digital Ocean. In my experience there is a lot of spam
originating from Digital Ocean. This potentially could cause you
some trouble. But this might be just my personal "feeling". I never
ran the numbers on ISP spam submission rates.

I currently use AWS for my mailservers. In the past I used
A1flexus for dedicated servers. They are on Long Island
and were very "linux friendly" at that time.

-H

-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Carl Fink]

On 7/31/20 3:29 AM, Didar Hossain wrote:

I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP ports
(25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their network.
This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my design has
separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.


I have never heard that. Many home ISPs block those ports, but VPS
providers generally are serving a business market. My own VPS is
with RimuHosting (https://rimuhosting.com) and they block no ports.
The most economical one I have heard of
(https://nosupportlinuxhosting.com/) certainly does not, and you will
find it hard to beat the price.

You mentioned wanting your host to be physically based in India,
but I'm not sure that's important unless you expect very heavy
traffic and need very short response times. My Rimuhosting VPS
has moved from New Zealand to Long Island, New York (east cost
of the USA) to Dallas, Texas (southwestern USA, about 2400 km
away) and for what I do (web hosting and mail, mostly) it has
made no detectable difference.

--
Carl Fink   nitpick...@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or any
> other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.
> 
> I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP ports
> (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their network.
> This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my design 
> has
> separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
> 
> I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> 
> Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS providers
> who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.
> 
I persoally use Linode for the last four years.  You can easily host a
not very busy MX on the smallest Linode (a Nanode) and the don't block
any ports.  They also make it trivially easy to go between different
"sizes" of Linodes.

The only problem I have is that when I first started, the IP of one my
MXs had previously been used by a spammer and so was on some blacklists.
I had to request the removal from the lists.  However, the same thing
happened to me nearly 20 years ago when I set up my first MX on a hard
wired on-premesis server with a static IP, so that phenomenon is not
unique to cloud hosting.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Celejar]

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 12:59:06 +0530
Didar Hossain  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or any
> other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.
> 
> I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP ports
> (25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their network.
> This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my design 
> has
> separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.
> 
> I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
> datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?
> 
> Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS providers
> who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.

Have you seen Ars Technica's series on self-hosting email? It
may be a bit dated (it's from 2014), but they're pretty good on such
topics. They mention a couple of VPS providers (A Small Orange,
Lithium Hosting), but I took a quick look, and they somewhat pricey:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/02/how-to-run-your-own-e-mail-server-with-your-own-domain-part-1/

> Kind regards,
> Didar
> 
> -- 
> Fortune finishes the great quotations, #6
> 
>   "But, soft!  What light through yonder window breaks?"
>   It's nothing, honey.  Go back to sleep.
> 


Celejar

Re: [OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[tomas]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:59:06PM +0530, Didar Hossain wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or any
> other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.

I just have a virtual machine "out there" on a hoster. I share the physical
machine with a couple (~4) of friends.

Bandwidth is great, uptime is great, it's just a bit pricier than "gmail".
But not much.

Always sunny, never cloudy :-)

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

[OT] Requesting feedback for VPS/Cloud for email (MX) server?

[Didar Hossain]

Hi,

I want to host my own email on the cloud - I don't want to use G Suite or any
other commercial service because I would like to have control over my email.

I read around a little and it seems that most cloud providers block SMTP ports
(25,587,465) from/t the internet as well sometimes from within their network.
This poses a real problem for my deployment plans. Also, note that my design has
separate MSA (submission), Mailstore (IMAP) and MTA (MX) nodes.

I have shortlisted Digital Ocean and Linode for my use because both of
datacenters in India. Is anyone using either of them for MX service?

Any and all feedback is most welcome including specialist/small VPS providers
who I can consider to host the MX node for my domain at least.

Kind regards,
Didar

-- 
Fortune finishes the great quotations, #6

"But, soft!  What light through yonder window breaks?"
It's nothing, honey.  Go back to sleep.

Re: [solved] passphrase feedback when unlocking disk at boot

[David Wright]

On Thu 23 Jan 2020 at 21:23:07 (+0100), Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting David Wright (2020-01-23 20:51:13)
> > On Thu 23 Jan 2020 at 10:32:44 (-0800), Mike Kupfer wrote:
> > > Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > > On Jo, 23 ian 20, 07:49:01, Mike Kupfer wrote:
> > > > > With the first system, when I enter the passphrase at the 
> > > > > "please unlock disk" prompt, there is no visual feedback.  With 
> > > > > the second system, I get a "*" for each character that I type.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Is there some configuration option I can change on the first 
> > > > > system so that it behaves like the second one?
> > > > 
> > > > The package plymouth might be the difference.
> > > 
> > > Yes, that was it.  I installed plymouth on the first system and 
> > > rebooted, and now it prints a "*" for each character in the 
> > > passphrase.
> > 
> > It would be interesting to know why installing plymouth made any 
> > difference. My system prints asterisks even though plymouth is not 
> > installed.
> > 
> > Were there any other packages installed along with plymouth?
> 
> Seems it is part of systemd to switch behaviour when plymouth is 
> available: 
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plymouth/+bug/1432265/comments/9

I don't understand much of that page.

But in any case, the user made their system print asterisks by
installing plymouth. So why does my system print them without
having plymouth installed? Is this just a DE problem rather
than a systemd one? (I don't have a DE.)

For me, the more interesting question would be how to ask for the
password when using   udisksctl unlock   in the same way as
happens during booting when crypttab is being acted upon. The
latter (crypttab) prints asterisks whereas the former (udisksctl) doesn't.

Cheers,
David.

Re: [solved] passphrase feedback when unlocking disk at boot

[Mike Kupfer]

David Wright wrote:

> It would be interesting to know why installing plymouth made any
> difference. My system prints asterisks even though plymouth is
> not installed.
> 
> Were there any other packages installed along with plymouth?

Hmm.  When I installed plymouth, the only thing it pulled in was
libplymouth4.

According to the logs, I then installed libgtk3-perl a few minutes
later, prior to rebooting.  That pulled in libcairo-gobject-perl and
libglib-object-introspection-perl.  But those wouldn't affect the prompt
for unlocking the disk, would they?

mike

Re: [solved] passphrase feedback when unlocking disk at boot

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting David Wright (2020-01-23 20:51:13)
> On Thu 23 Jan 2020 at 10:32:44 (-0800), Mike Kupfer wrote:
> > Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > On Jo, 23 ian 20, 07:49:01, Mike Kupfer wrote:
> > > > With the first system, when I enter the passphrase at the 
> > > > "please unlock disk" prompt, there is no visual feedback.  With 
> > > > the second system, I get a "*" for each character that I type.
> > > > 
> > > > Is there some configuration option I can change on the first 
> > > > system so that it behaves like the second one?
> > > 
> > > The package plymouth might be the difference.
> > 
> > Yes, that was it.  I installed plymouth on the first system and 
> > rebooted, and now it prints a "*" for each character in the 
> > passphrase.
> 
> It would be interesting to know why installing plymouth made any 
> difference. My system prints asterisks even though plymouth is not 
> installed.
> 
> Were there any other packages installed along with plymouth?

Seems it is part of systemd to switch behaviour when plymouth is 
available: 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plymouth/+bug/1432265/comments/9


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Description: signature

Re: [solved] passphrase feedback when unlocking disk at boot

[David Wright]

On Thu 23 Jan 2020 at 10:32:44 (-0800), Mike Kupfer wrote:
> Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Jo, 23 ian 20, 07:49:01, Mike Kupfer wrote:
> > > With the first system, when I enter the passphrase at the "please unlock
> > > disk" prompt, there is no visual feedback.  With the second system, I
> > > get a "*" for each character that I type.
> > > 
> > > Is there some configuration option I can change on the first system so
> > > that it behaves like the second one?  
> > 
> > The package plymouth might be the difference.
> 
> Yes, that was it.  I installed plymouth on the first system and
> rebooted, and now it prints a "*" for each character in the passphrase.

It would be interesting to know why installing plymouth made any
difference. My system prints asterisks even though plymouth is
not installed.

Were there any other packages installed along with plymouth?

Cheers,
David.

[solved] passphrase feedback when unlocking disk at boot

[Mike Kupfer]

Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Jo, 23 ian 20, 07:49:01, Mike Kupfer wrote:
> > With the first system, when I enter the passphrase at the "please unlock
> > disk" prompt, there is no visual feedback.  With the second system, I
> > get a "*" for each character that I type.
> > 
> > Is there some configuration option I can change on the first system so
> > that it behaves like the second one?  
> 
> The package plymouth might be the difference.

Yes, that was it.  I installed plymouth on the first system and
rebooted, and now it prints a "*" for each character in the passphrase.

Thanks!

mike

Re: passphrase feedback when unlocking disk at boot

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Jo, 23 ian 20, 07:49:01, Mike Kupfer wrote:
> I have 2 systems running Buster with encrypted disks.  The first system
> was upgraded to Buster; I think the original install was Stretch.  The
> second system was installed with Buster.
> 
> With the first system, when I enter the passphrase at the "please unlock
> disk" prompt, there is no visual feedback.  With the second system, I
> get a "*" for each character that I type.
> 
> Is there some configuration option I can change on the first system so
> that it behaves like the second one?  

The package plymouth might be the difference.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Description: PGP signature

passphrase feedback when unlocking disk at boot

[Mike Kupfer]

I have 2 systems running Buster with encrypted disks.  The first system
was upgraded to Buster; I think the original install was Stretch.  The
second system was installed with Buster.

With the first system, when I enter the passphrase at the "please unlock
disk" prompt, there is no visual feedback.  With the second system, I
get a "*" for each character that I type.

Is there some configuration option I can change on the first system so
that it behaves like the second one?  Alternatively, is there a way to
tell the first system, on a one-time basis, to give me feedback as I
enter the passphrase?

The reason I ask is that this morning I was unable to unlock the disk of
the second system.  The problem was that the keyboard was not working
for one of the characters in the passphrase.  I was able to figure out
the problem because I noticed that I was not seeing a "*" when I pressed
that character.  If the keyboard problem had occurred with the first
system, I would have had a much harder time figuring it out.

thanks,
mike

Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 02:26:19AM +, der.hans wrote:
> Am 13. Aug, 2018 schwätzte Greg Wooledge so:
> > But, wait!  Debian has decided to CHANGE HOW SU WORKS in testing, so
> > after stretch, who knows how things will work?!
> 
> I didn't realize su is changing. What's the change?

 is just
one of several threads that discussed it recently.

Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[der.hans]

Am 13. Aug, 2018 schwätzte Greg Wooledge so:

moin moin,


On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 05:28:37PM -0500, Ryan Nowakowski wrote:

For example if I set the EDITOR env var how does
that interact with update-alternatives when I run visudo?


The VISUAL or EDITOR variable takes precedence, if one of them is set.
If neither one is set, then visudo uses its compiled-in default, which
on Debian happens to be '/usr/bin/editor'.


More than one way...


The problem is that sometimes, sudo will strip environment variables,
and sometimes, it will not.  So, on any given computer with any given
sudoers configuration, you can't actually know in advance whether
"sudo visudo" will use VISUAL/EDITOR or not.


Will this preserve the variables you want?

 --preserve-env=list
 Indicates to the security policy that the user wishes to
add
 the comma-separated list of environment variables to
those
 preserved from the user's environment.  The security
policy
 may return an error if the user does not have permission
to
 preserve the environment.


Isn't Unix *fun*?


Yup :)


Of course, if you simply use "su", then VISUAL/EDITOR will be preserved
in the environment (because "su" does not strip environment variables),
so "su" followed by "visudo" should work fine.

But, wait!  Debian has decided to CHANGE HOW SU WORKS in testing, so
after stretch, who knows how things will work?!


I didn't realize su is changing. What's the change?


Some people claim you should muscle-memorize "su -" which strips the
environment in order to give you a usable PATH variable.  If you follow
THIS advice, then "su -" will strip VISUAL/EDITOR from the environment,
and then your VISUAL/EDITOR variables won't work when you type visudo.
So, I can't imagine why you would want to do that.  Losing all your
qualify-of-life environment variables is far too high a price to pay to
get a working PATH variable after su.

The other alternatives are:

1) Stay on stretch.
2) Edit /etc/login.defs to restore a functional su command (without needing
  to use "su -").
3) Put /usr/sbin and /sbin in your ordinary account's PATH.


That's what I do. At this point anyone who has the knowledge and desire to
use the shell also knows how to update PATH, no need to give them a
half-baked environment.


*Fun*!


*WH* :)

ciao,

der.hans
--
#  https://www.LuftHans.com   https://www.PhxLinux.org
#  "I guess I should've agreed with my boss more often. Today I was replaced
#  by a bobblehead doll!" -- Randy Glasbergen, 13Mar2006

Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[der.hans]

Am 11. Aug, 2018 schwätzte Ryan Nowakowski so:

moin moin Ryan,


On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 08:08:00PM +, der.hans wrote:

moin moin,

I'm giving a presentation on /etc/alternatives in a few hours.

If you use the alternatives system a lot and would like to spend a few
minutes reviewing my talk for me, please see the links below.

Any use cases or cool functionality that I've missed?

Anything I've gotten completely wrong?

Any suggestions for good examples?

AsciiDoc source file:

https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.adoc

Slidy HTML ( one-page format without JavaScript, slides with JavaScript ):

https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.html



You might add more info on how the other methods interact with
update-alternatives.  For example if I set the EDITOR env var how does
that interact with update-alternatives when I run visudo?  In fact I
think something like a "best practices" is needed for setting default
programs and then overriding them on a per user basis.  I'm not sure
this presentation is the right place for that but perhaps it could be
a wiki page in the future.


Yeah, I think I need to write/update an article on how they are used and
in what order they're evaluated. That would actually be a good resource
for my anatomy of the command line presentation as well.

I also need more examples.

ciao,

der.hans
--
#  https://www.LuftHans.com   https://www.PhxLinux.org
#  "Rock 'n' roll might not solve your problems, but it does let you dance
#  all over them." -- Pete Townsend
fred

Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:31:02AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 13 Aug 2018 at 09:08:28 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > The other alternatives are:
> > 
> > 1) Stay on stretch.
> > 2) Edit /etc/login.defs to restore a functional su command (without needing
> >to use "su -").
> > 3) Put /usr/sbin and /sbin in your ordinary account's PATH.

> Why is
> 
>  Put some "qualify-of-life environment variables" into /root/.bashrc
> 
> not in your list?

I guess that would work, but I see some flaws:

 a) Every time you change an environment variable in your personal
account, you'll need to remember to make the same change in root's
account.

 b) What if other people also have root access to this system and don't
want your personal variables?

 c) If you need to make a change on every machine as root to fix the
behavior, why not just change /etc/login.defs instead?

 d) Especially if your home directory is shared across many systems.
Changing it just once in your home directory is better than having
to change every single system you log into.

Still, feel free to come up with your own alternatives to make things
work.  You might find some more ideas that I overlooked.

Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[David Wright]

On Mon 13 Aug 2018 at 09:08:28 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 05:28:37PM -0500, Ryan Nowakowski wrote:
> > For example if I set the EDITOR env var how does
> > that interact with update-alternatives when I run visudo?
> 
> The VISUAL or EDITOR variable takes precedence, if one of them is set.
> If neither one is set, then visudo uses its compiled-in default, which
> on Debian happens to be '/usr/bin/editor'.
> 
> The problem is that sometimes, sudo will strip environment variables,
> and sometimes, it will not.  So, on any given computer with any given
> sudoers configuration, you can't actually know in advance whether
> "sudo visudo" will use VISUAL/EDITOR or not.
> 
> Isn't Unix *fun*?
> 
> Of course, if you simply use "su", then VISUAL/EDITOR will be preserved
> in the environment (because "su" does not strip environment variables),
> so "su" followed by "visudo" should work fine.
> 
> But, wait!  Debian has decided to CHANGE HOW SU WORKS in testing, so
> after stretch, who knows how things will work?!
> 
> Some people claim you should muscle-memorize "su -" which strips the
> environment in order to give you a usable PATH variable.  If you follow
> THIS advice, then "su -" will strip VISUAL/EDITOR from the environment,
> and then your VISUAL/EDITOR variables won't work when you type visudo.
> So, I can't imagine why you would want to do that.  Losing all your
> qualify-of-life environment variables is far too high a price to pay to
> get a working PATH variable after su.
> 
> The other alternatives are:
> 
> 1) Stay on stretch.
> 2) Edit /etc/login.defs to restore a functional su command (without needing
>to use "su -").
> 3) Put /usr/sbin and /sbin in your ordinary account's PATH.
> 
> *Fun*!

Why is

 Put some "qualify-of-life environment variables" into /root/.bashrc

not in your list?

Cheers,
David.

Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 05:28:37PM -0500, Ryan Nowakowski wrote:
> For example if I set the EDITOR env var how does
> that interact with update-alternatives when I run visudo?

The VISUAL or EDITOR variable takes precedence, if one of them is set.
If neither one is set, then visudo uses its compiled-in default, which
on Debian happens to be '/usr/bin/editor'.

The problem is that sometimes, sudo will strip environment variables,
and sometimes, it will not.  So, on any given computer with any given
sudoers configuration, you can't actually know in advance whether
"sudo visudo" will use VISUAL/EDITOR or not.

Isn't Unix *fun*?

Of course, if you simply use "su", then VISUAL/EDITOR will be preserved
in the environment (because "su" does not strip environment variables),
so "su" followed by "visudo" should work fine.

But, wait!  Debian has decided to CHANGE HOW SU WORKS in testing, so
after stretch, who knows how things will work?!

Some people claim you should muscle-memorize "su -" which strips the
environment in order to give you a usable PATH variable.  If you follow
THIS advice, then "su -" will strip VISUAL/EDITOR from the environment,
and then your VISUAL/EDITOR variables won't work when you type visudo.
So, I can't imagine why you would want to do that.  Losing all your
qualify-of-life environment variables is far too high a price to pay to
get a working PATH variable after su.

The other alternatives are:

1) Stay on stretch.
2) Edit /etc/login.defs to restore a functional su command (without needing
   to use "su -").
3) Put /usr/sbin and /sbin in your ordinary account's PATH.

*Fun*!

Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[Dale Forsyth]

https://www.mycause.com.au/page/183259/a-smile-will-change-a-day-love-that-changed-my-world

From: Ryan Nowakowski 
Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2018 8:28 AM
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 08:08:00PM +, der.hans wrote:
> moin moin,
>
> I'm giving a presentation on /etc/alternatives in a few hours.
>
> If you use the alternatives system a lot and would like to spend a few
> minutes reviewing my talk for me, please see the links below.
>
> Any use cases or cool functionality that I've missed?
>
> Anything I've gotten completely wrong?
>
> Any suggestions for good examples?
>
> AsciiDoc source file:
>
> https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.adoc
>
> Slidy HTML ( one-page format without JavaScript, slides with JavaScript ):
>
> https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.html
>

You might add more info on how the other methods interact with
update-alternatives.  For example if I set the EDITOR env var how does
that interact with update-alternatives when I run visudo?  In fact I
think something like a "best practices" is needed for setting default
programs and then overriding them on a per user basis.  I'm not sure
this presentation is the right place for that but perhaps it could be
a wiki page in the future.

Re: /etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[Ryan Nowakowski]

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 08:08:00PM +, der.hans wrote:
> moin moin,
> 
> I'm giving a presentation on /etc/alternatives in a few hours.
> 
> If you use the alternatives system a lot and would like to spend a few
> minutes reviewing my talk for me, please see the links below.
> 
> Any use cases or cool functionality that I've missed?
> 
> Anything I've gotten completely wrong?
> 
> Any suggestions for good examples?
> 
> AsciiDoc source file:
> 
> https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.adoc
> 
> Slidy HTML ( one-page format without JavaScript, slides with JavaScript ):
> 
> https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.html
> 

You might add more info on how the other methods interact with
update-alternatives.  For example if I set the EDITOR env var how does
that interact with update-alternatives when I run visudo?  In fact I
think something like a "best practices" is needed for setting default
programs and then overriding them on a per user basis.  I'm not sure
this presentation is the right place for that but perhaps it could be
a wiki page in the future.

/etc/alternatives feedback for presentation

[der.hans]

moin moin,

I'm giving a presentation on /etc/alternatives in a few hours.

If you use the alternatives system a lot and would like to spend a few
minutes reviewing my talk for me, please see the links below.

Any use cases or cool functionality that I've missed?

Anything I've gotten completely wrong?

Any suggestions for good examples?

AsciiDoc source file:

https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.adoc

Slidy HTML ( one-page format without JavaScript, slides with JavaScript ):

https://www.LuftHans.com/Akten/Presentations/2018/PLUG/PLUG.intro_to_etc_alternatives.2018Aug09.html

ciao,

der.hans
--
#  https://www.LuftHans.com   https://www.PhxLinux.org
#  "The purpose of IT is to seamlessly and transparently provide the other
#  9/10's of the iceberg for people who need to work with chunks
#  of floating ice." -- Strata Rose Chalup

Unattended upgrades - feedback

[Bengt Frost]

Trying to install Unattended upgrades for Debian Stable including
contrib and non-free packages on a friends computer. Also testing main
packages (papirus icon set, testing is downpinned). Not sure if this is
working.

// "o=Debian,a=stable";
// "o=Debian,a=stable-updates";
// "o=Debian,a=proposed-updates";
// "origin=Debian,codename=${distro_codename},label=Debian-Security";
// Uncommented line above and added following:
"o=Debian,n=stretch,l=Debian,c=main contrib non-free";
"o=Debian,n=stretch-updates,l=Debian,c=main contrib non-free";
"o=Debian,n=stretch,l=Debian-Security,c=main contrib non-free";
// Added papirus-icon-theme from testing repo
// see sources.list and preferences.d/testing.pref (pinning)
"o=Debian,n=testing,l=Debian,c=main";
// Also added further down:
// Unattended-Upgrade::Remove-Unused-Dependencies "true";

-- 
Sincerely,
Bengt Frost

Re: Feedback

[Fungi4All]

> From: anonym...@hoi-polloi.org
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Hello!
> Today I downloaded the latest release of Debian, the 9.1 i386 XFCE Live. I 
> downloaded as a torrent by the earlier Debian 9.0.1 x64 XFCE. I experienced 
> (sorry my poor english!) that the LibreOffice Writer couldn"t start and the 
> system can give only 1GB free space (!). I don"t like the mount other volumes 
> or external USB tools when I use a live unsafe system because the safety, but 
> for 1GB free space is good for nothing, sorry!
> Later I found an harmful "thing" on the machine, the system automatically 
> logged out and asked my login names and passwords many times and not only in 
> the Debian the problem was same in other linux too.Maybe this harmful "thing" 
> caused the overmentioned problems (LibreOffice and fev free space), but I 
> don"t think. I don"t know yet that my machine when infected, but maybe when I 
> downloaded the new release?
> I knowing that the torrent client is checking the hash of the downloaded 
> files, but I think this is not hundred percent :-)
> Now, I would like to thank"s your work! Greatings from Hungary!

It sounds like a USB with bad/infected firmware or one of those things
that are not USB sticks at all. But, if I do understand correctly,
you are trying to install from a live image into the left over USB stick?
Did you take a loot with a partitioning tool what the disk looks like?
How big was it originally, and was the rest of the free space
partitioned properly?
The next thing that people have said here 1000 times (in the archives
of the list you can search live and installer) is not to use the the installer
from withing the live image. Use the graphical installer without booting
live. The live-installer is and has been crap for a long time.
I don't understand what libreoffice has to do with anything, please try
again. It makes no sense, to me anyway.

Feedback

[Anonymous]

Hello!


   Today I downloaded the latest release of Debian, the 9.1 i386 XFCE Live. I 
downloaded as a torrent by the earlier Debian 9.0.1 x64 XFCE. I experienced 
(sorry my poor english!) that the LibreOffice  Writer couldn't start and the 
system can give only 1GB free space (!). I don't like the mount other volumes 
or external USB tools when I use a live unsafe system because the safety, but 
for 1GB free space is good for nothing, sorry!

   Later I found an harmful "thing" on the machine, the system automatically 
logged out and asked my login names and passwords many times and not only in 
the Debian the problem was same in other linux too.Maybe this harmful "thing" 
caused the overmentioned problems (LibreOffice and fev free space), but I don't 
think. I don't know yet that my machine when infected, but maybe when I 
downloaded the new release? 
I knowing that the torrent client is checking the hash of the downloaded files, 
but I think this is not hundred percent :-)

Now, I would like to thank's your work! Greatings from Hungary!

A Linux ebook quick launcher - looking for testers and feedback

[Jan]

Hello,

I wrote a piece of software for Linux and or Debian and I am looking for 
testers and of course feedback.


In particular, it is about a ebook quick launcher application called 
"KISS Ebook" or kisslib in short, which is right now in development.


Its not a viewer of any kind, its simply purpose is, to quickly navigate 
through ebooks in a table view and launch any application connected to 
the ebook format - which can be set up on demand.


Supported ebook file types are:
- PDF
- EPUB
- MOBI
- CHM

The original problem, why I wrote this application:
Most ebook viewers dont care much about organizing your ebooks, you can 
view then just fine or start reading at the place where you left of - 
like "evince" in example.


But they dont support organizing your ebooks in a KISS (keep it simple 
and stupid) way.


Thats where kisslib comes into place.

kisslib let you define starting applications and lauch the ebook format, 
like .pdf, with a particular viewer of choice.


Like middle ware, but with some ability to label and search your ebooks.

The project is under development, but I thought it might be of interest 
as it is already in a usable state.


Its using GTK3 as a UI framework, sqlite3 as database storage and libzip 
for handling the EPUB format.

And its written in pure C.

Screenshots and further information can be found at:
Gallery: https://www.picflash.org/gallery.php?id=9RGDIIE7K8 (latest 
screenshots first)


Github: https://github.com/jrie/kisslib (Usage, Features, Compilation)


I would love to get your feedback about KISS Ebook.


Jan

Re: Request for feedback: systemd backport for jessie

[Brian]

On Tue 05 Jul 2016 at 20:46:07 +0200, Elimar Riesebieter wrote:

> Hi Mika,
> 
> * Michael Prokop <m...@debian.org> [2016-07-05 17:34 +0200]:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > here at DebConf I've been working on a backport of systemd for jessie.
> > 
> > If you're interested in all the new features, bugfixes and changes
> > that systemd received since its version 215-17+deb8u4 (the one
> > available from jessie) you might wanna give it a try.
> > 
> > The backport is based on what will be released as v230-6 for Debian
> > unstable soonish. Once systemd v230-6 migrated to testing and if I
> > receive enough feedback I'll upload systemd v230-6 officially
> > towards jessie-backports then.
> 
> Are you aware of the 'Thinking about a "jessie and a half" release'
> thread at debian-devel [0]?
> 
> [0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/07/msg00054.html

I am aware of it. What bearing has it on working on providing a backport
of systemd for jessie (which I would agree with)? Improving the systemd
experience on Jessie can only be for the good of its users.

Re: Request for feedback: systemd backport for jessie

[Elimar Riesebieter]

Hi Mika,

* Michael Prokop <m...@debian.org> [2016-07-05 17:34 +0200]:

> Hi,
> 
> here at DebConf I've been working on a backport of systemd for jessie.
> 
> If you're interested in all the new features, bugfixes and changes
> that systemd received since its version 215-17+deb8u4 (the one
> available from jessie) you might wanna give it a try.
> 
> The backport is based on what will be released as v230-6 for Debian
> unstable soonish. Once systemd v230-6 migrated to testing and if I
> receive enough feedback I'll upload systemd v230-6 officially
> towards jessie-backports then.

Are you aware of the 'Thinking about a "jessie and a half" release'
thread at debian-devel [0]?

[0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/07/msg00054.html

Elimar
-- 
  From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]:
  .
  arsehole \arse"hole`\ ([aum]rs"h[=o]l`), n.
 1. execretory opening at the end of the alimentary canal.
-- randomly choosed!

Request for feedback: systemd backport for jessie

[Michael Prokop]

Hi,

here at DebConf I've been working on a backport of systemd for jessie.

If you're interested in all the new features, bugfixes and changes
that systemd received since its version 215-17+deb8u4 (the one
available from jessie) you might wanna give it a try.

The backport is based on what will be released as v230-6 for Debian
unstable soonish. Once systemd v230-6 migrated to testing and if I
receive enough feedback I'll upload systemd v230-6 officially
towards jessie-backports then.

In the meanwhile packages (source + binaries for amd64) and usage
instructions are available at:

  https://people.debian.org/~mika/systemd/jessie/

I'd appreciate any testing and feedback.

Special thanks to Michael Biebl for assistance and feedback with the
backport.

regards,
-mika-
-- 
http://michael-prokop.at/  || http://adminzen.org/
http://grml-solutions.com/ || http://grml.org/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Feedback for apt-history-curses-ui

[Javier Barroso]

Hello,

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Reco  wrote:
>  Hi.
>
> On Wed, Sep 09, 2015 at 07:23:42PM +0200, Javier Barroso wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I would like to recieve feed back about a script which I have just
>> upload to github.
>>
>> https://github.com/i5513/apt-history-gui
>>
>> It is working on my computer, but I cannot be sure it will work on
>> other debian installations.
>>
>> It is , for now a perl script which will present you dpkg.log and
>> apt/history.log in a ncurse interface.
>>
>> I'm not sure how :all architecture should be analyze. So any idea is welcome
>
>
> Off the top of my head:
>
> 1) Please replace 'gui' with 'tui' in your README. Should help to avoid
> some confusion.
Done, I have planned to make a gtk3 version

>
> 2) Please document the need of installed Curses::UI::Common and
> grep-status. My Debian installation lacks both, for example.
>
Done, thanks

> 3) At least *some* kind of help text (preferably - a manpage) would be
> welcome.
>
Done inline, for the moment

> 4) While we're at it, "apt-history.perl-curses-ui" could use explicit
> license comment. As of now, it's unclear whenever you provide this
> script on terms of GPL2 or GPL2+.
>
Added at man page

> 5) Checking for existence of 'grep-status' *before invoking* probably
> would not hurt either. Using an absolute path to 'grep-status' is a good
> idea too
>
Done

> 6) The message printed at line 93 contains a typo - 'possible' ->
> 'possibly'.
>
Thanks

> 7) The message printed at line 202 is not English as far as I can tell.
>
Thanks, fixed
> 8) This part's 'grep .' meaning currently escapes me:
>
>   open my $grep_status,  "grep-status -n -FPackage '' ".
> " -s Package -s Architecture".
> " -s Version -s Status -n |".
> "grep . |";
>
That is to erase "^$" lines, so I can play with module (%) operator

> 9) This part:
>
>   open my $hfh, '{
> zcat $(ls -rt /var/log/apt/history.log*gz)
> cat /var/log/apt/history.log;
> } |';
>
> could use proper Perl opendir handling.
>
To be done

> 10) The case of terminal with less than 15 lines is not handled at all.
>
mmm I'm not sure how to handle it

> 11) The code could use some trailing whitespace and tabulation cleanup :)
>
I will review


> Reco
>

Thank you very much!

Re: Feedback for apt-history-curses-ui

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Wed, Sep 09, 2015 at 07:23:42PM +0200, Javier Barroso wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I would like to recieve feed back about a script which I have just
> upload to github.
> 
> https://github.com/i5513/apt-history-gui
> 
> It is working on my computer, but I cannot be sure it will work on
> other debian installations.
> 
> It is , for now a perl script which will present you dpkg.log and
> apt/history.log in a ncurse interface.
> 
> I'm not sure how :all architecture should be analyze. So any idea is welcome


Off the top of my head:

1) Please replace 'gui' with 'tui' in your README. Should help to avoid
some confusion.

2) Please document the need of installed Curses::UI::Common and
grep-status. My Debian installation lacks both, for example.

3) At least *some* kind of help text (preferably - a manpage) would be
welcome.

4) While we're at it, "apt-history.perl-curses-ui" could use explicit
license comment. As of now, it's unclear whenever you provide this
script on terms of GPL2 or GPL2+.

5) Checking for existence of 'grep-status' *before invoking* probably
would not hurt either. Using an absolute path to 'grep-status' is a good
idea too.

6) The message printed at line 93 contains a typo - 'possible' ->
'possibly'.

7) The message printed at line 202 is not English as far as I can tell.

8) This part's 'grep .' meaning currently escapes me:

  open my $grep_status,  "grep-status -n -FPackage '' ".
" -s Package -s Architecture".
" -s Version -s Status -n |".
"grep . |";

9) This part:

  open my $hfh, '{
zcat $(ls -rt /var/log/apt/history.log*gz)
cat /var/log/apt/history.log;
} |';

could use proper Perl opendir handling.

10) The case of terminal with less than 15 lines is not handled at all.

11) The code could use some trailing whitespace and tabulation cleanup :)

Reco

Feedback for apt-history-curses-ui

[Javier Barroso]

Hello,

I would like to recieve feed back about a script which I have just
upload to github.

https://github.com/i5513/apt-history-gui

It is working on my computer, but I cannot be sure it will work on
other debian installations.

It is , for now a perl script which will present you dpkg.log and
apt/history.log in a ncurse interface.

I'm not sure how :all architecture should be analyze. So any idea is welcome

Thank you

Re: Feedback for apt-history-curses-ui

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Wed, Sep 09, 2015 at 08:51:30PM +0200, Javier Barroso wrote:
> > 8) This part's 'grep .' meaning currently escapes me:
> >
> >   open my $grep_status,  "grep-status -n -FPackage '' ".
> > " -s Package -s Architecture".
> > " -s Version -s Status -n |".
> > "grep . |";
> >
> That is to erase "^$" lines, so I can play with module (%) operator

Oh, I see. I'd use "grep -v '^$'" for clarity, but they don't argue
about tastes :)


> > 10) The case of terminal with less than 15 lines is not handled at all.
> >
> mmm I'm not sure how to handle it

This:

my $packages_list = $win->add(
  "packages_list",
  "Listbox",
  -values => [@packages],
  -onselchange => \_history,
  -height => ${ENV{LINES}}-15,
  -title => "Packages (".scalar @packages.")",
  -border => "true",
  -vscrollbar => "true",
  ) || die ($!);

Since you're using $LINES explicitly, you might as well check it's
defined, has a numeric value, and a value is greater-or-equal 16.

Or scrap $LINES altogether and use an appropriate function from
Term-Size or Term-Size-Perl.


> Thank you very much!

You're welcome.

Reco

Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

On 13 March 2015 at 12:52, Michael Biebl bi...@debian.org wrote:

 On Fri, 13 Mar 2015, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:

 On 13 March 2015 at 07:38, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:


 On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:34:59PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

 But what's the point of such a symlink?


 It does no harm, and if a beginner is following a tutorial that expects
 /etc/httpd/log, it will still work.


 The symlink `/etc/httpd/log` is just terrible.

 If you wanna do a grep -r myconf /etc, it will scans /var/log... So,
 yes, it is a total utter crap.


 No, this is not correct. grep -r does not follow symbolic links.
 See man 1 grep.

Yes, you're right, I've used a bad example but, I remember that at
least one time, ~10 years ago, I tried to search something under /etc
(CentOS), and got dragged into /var/log, it was terrifying...
Debian culture is the way to go.

Nevertheless, besides my bad example, it doesn't change the fact that,
that symlink is a crap.:-P


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:34:59PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
 But what's the point of such a symlink?

It does no harm, and if a beginner is following a tutorial that expects
/etc/httpd/log, it will still work.

 The binary is called apache2, so that I prefer /etc/apache2. Why use
 /etc/httpd, in particular assuming the fact that several HTTP servers can be
 installed on the machine?

The binary is called apache2 in Debian only because it was (re)named that by
the Debian maintainers at a time when you could co-install apache2 and apache
1.x. (However, my memory is poor but I think the apache1 packages had the
binary as 'apache' anyway, so this doesn't excuse that…)

The reason I prefer httpd is because that's the upstream name for it. Renaming
binaries to something different from upstream is a potential case of confusion
(and from experience dealing with many other web and systems admins, it *is* a
cause of confusion in this case.) IMHO, we (Debian maintainers) should make as
few changes to upstream as possible, and only where there's a clear benefit to
do so.

You can install several httpd servers on one machine, yes. If other httpd
servers also tried to use the httpd name, then (assuming they were command-line
compatible) the alternatives system exists for this situation. However, none of
the other web servers you might want to install call their binary httpd,
because apache got there first, and to do so would be pointless and confusing.


-- 
Jonathan Dowland


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

On 13 March 2015 at 07:38, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:34:59PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
  But what's the point of such a symlink?

 It does no harm, and if a beginner is following a tutorial that expects
 /etc/httpd/log, it will still work.

The symlink `/etc/httpd/log` is just terrible.

If you wanna do a grep -r myconf /etc, it will scans /var/log... So,
yes, it is a total utter crap.

I'm glad that Debian cares about this kind of specifications. And that
is precisely why I'm a Debian fan.

Cheers!
Thiago


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Michael Biebl]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:


On 13 March 2015 at 07:38, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org wrote:


On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:34:59PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

But what's the point of such a symlink?


It does no harm, and if a beginner is following a tutorial that expects
/etc/httpd/log, it will still work.


The symlink `/etc/httpd/log` is just terrible.

If you wanna do a grep -r myconf /etc, it will scans /var/log... So,
yes, it is a total utter crap.


No, this is not correct. grep -r does not follow symbolic links.
See man 1 grep.

Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Christian Seiler]

On 03/12/2015 05:13 AM, Don Armstrong wrote:

I suppose someone could make an argument that including a verbose flag
or something might be useful,


This is on systemd's TODO list btw.:

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/TODO
  - Add a verbose mode to systemctl start and friends that explains
what is being done or not done

So the answer to the original question is: it's just not implemented
yet.

The verbosity notwithstanding, the exit code of 'systemctl start' does
reflect if something goes wrong:

# cat  /etc/systemd/system/demo-fail.service
[Service]
Type=oneshot
ExecStart=/bin/false
   (( press Ctrl+D here ))
# systemctl daemon-reload
# systemctl start demo-fail.service
Job for demo-fail.service failed. See 'systemctl status 
demo-fail.service' and 'journalctl -xn' for details.

# echo $?
1
# cat  /etc/systemd/system/demo-success.service
[Service]
Type=oneshot
ExecStart=/bin/true
   (( press Ctrl+D here ))
# systemctl daemon-reload
# systemctl start demo-success.service
# echo $?
0
# rm /etc/systemd/system/demo-success.service \
 /etc/systemd/system/demo-fail.service
# systemctl daemon-reload

Christian


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 01:44:23AM -0300, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
 On 12 March 2015 at 01:13, Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:
 
  On Wed, 11 Mar 2015, The Wanderer wrote:
   Running those commands doesn't give you output from 'systemctl stop
   foo' or the like, however.
 
   I thought the OP was asking how to determine, from the exit code
   and/or the console output of 'systemctl stop foo' (or a similar
   command, one that actually _alters_ the status of a service), whether
   the command actually succeeded.
 
  If you want to know that, then do something like:
 
  systemctl start foo  systemctl is-active foo;
 
  or
 
  systemctl stop foo  ! systemctl is-active foo  ! systemctl is-failed \
  foo;
 
  Presumably you could even write a shell function to do this if that's
  something that you actually wanted.
 
   You can certainly run these commands afterwards, and get the status of
   the service that way, but that's no substitute for being able to get
   output or the like directly from the original control command.
  
   Does systemd really not provide any verbose mode for its
   service-control commands, in which they report what they are doing?
 
  No. Really, all systemctl start/stop do is tell systemd to actually stop
  or start the service, and optionally block until the action is
  completed.
 
  I suppose someone could make an argument that including a verbose flag
  or something might be useful, but considering that you can achieve
  similar functionality with existing discrete tools, I'm not sure that
  growing additional code and documentation to support such an option is
  worth it.
 
  Look at the definition of start_unit in
  http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/systemctl/systemctl.c
  for the current code.
 
 
  --
  Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com
 
 Hey guys!
 
  Thanks for all the replies! I really appreciate it.
 
  Now, I'm understanding more about it, I'm fine with is-active |
 is-failed systemd options.
 
  Nevertheless, I think that it is weird that systemd is very different
 from what I've experienced in the past 20 years. For example, why the
 service's configuration files are stored at
 /lib/systemd/system/*.service and not directly under /etc? For God's
 sake...

This is by design, and working around limitations in RPM (afaik). The
systemd-package-supplied service scripts are in /lib/systemd/…; if they are
modified upstream and you update your systemd package, they can be updated
safely (no risk of overwriting user modifications). If you want to modify them
locally, copy them to /etc/systemd/… first. These take precedence over the
copies in /lib/systemd/…, and will not be overwritten by a future system update
to systemd.

  I thought that Debian had rules to organize its file system.

Yes, the FHS, but the above does not break the FHS anyway. Of course on a
Debian system, dpkg can alert you that the incoming systemd update was going to
change a file which you have locally modified; but even in Debian we aren't
consistent in how we handle this, and that forces interactive upgrades for core
packages.

 For example, with CentOS / RedHat, when you install httpd, it puts a
 symlink under /etc/httpd pointing to /var/log

I don't see a problem with that. Upstream expect /etc/httpd/log, RH honour that
but ensure the actual logs go to /var, as per FHS. I prefer Red Hat's apache
going to /etc/httpd over Debian's to /etc/apache2, personally…


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[David Wright]

Quoting Martinx - ジェームズ (thiagocmarti...@gmail.com):
 On 12 March 2015 at 01:13, Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:
  On Wed, 11 Mar 2015, The Wanderer wrote:
  Running those commands doesn't give you output from 'systemctl stop
  foo' or the like, however.
[...]
  I suppose someone could make an argument that including a verbose flag
  or something might be useful, but considering that you can achieve
  similar functionality with existing discrete tools, I'm not sure that
  growing additional code and documentation to support such an option is
  worth it.

As Vincent pointed out, this is on a todo list.

  Look at the definition of start_unit in
  http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/systemctl/systemctl.c
  for the current code.

7½K of C? No thanks!

 By not polluting the Linux boot with starting this [OK], starting
 that [OK] The Debian boot is now more clear with systemd, then,
 if I need a feedback, I can ask for it...

How?

If I don't have quiet in the kernel parameters line, I get something
that looks like dmesg on steroids, and it's impossible to tell what's
going on at all. OTOH with it, and I'm lucky to get anything at all. I
just sit and wait for a clear-screen (why does it do that and how do
I stop it? Is there a dont-clear-screen.service?) and a login prompt.

On random occasions, some messages do appear, just a little more
verbose than is convenient, but an improvement. However, these
messages usually mean trouble, and I finish up waiting for some
service to start, with no limit on the wait (Bug#778881) and have to
reboot.

Sometimes, I get a stalled shutdown in a similar manner, so I have to
hard-reset. If, as a result, the system decides to fsck the disk,
systemd gives no indication of the fact. Actually it's the same if you
force a full fsck with the kernel parameter: when systemd fscks the
root filesytem, all you see is that the disk is busy. You only get
progress % when it checks the other filesystems later on.

Cheers,
David.


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Jape Person]

On 03/12/2015 12:51 PM, David Wright wrote:

If I don't have quiet in the kernel parameters line, I get something
that looks like dmesg on steroids, and it's impossible to tell what's
going on at all. OTOH with it, and I'm lucky to get anything at all. I
just sit and wait for a clear-screen (why does it do that and how do
I stop it? Is there a dont-clear-screen.service?) and a login prompt.

On random occasions, some messages do appear, just a little more
verbose than is convenient, but an improvement. However, these
messages usually mean trouble, and I finish up waiting for some
service to start, with no limit on the wait (Bug#778881) and have to
reboot.


I run into this issue on a fairly regular basis with one of my systems. 
Fortunately, it's a local system. It'd be pretty annoying if it was one 
of the remote systems.




Sometimes, I get a stalled shutdown in a similar manner, so I have to
hard-reset. If, as a result, the system decides to fsck the disk,
systemd gives no indication of the fact. Actually it's the same if you
force a full fsck with the kernel parameter: when systemd fscks the
root filesytem, all you see is that the disk is busy. You only get
progress % when it checks the other filesystems later on.


And again, I have seen the stalled shutdown once-in-a-while on all of 
the local systems (and presumably on some of the remote ones). However, 
the fact that the remote systems all eventually became reachable again 
goaded me into simply waiting on the local ones that were stalled. In my 
case the stalled machines have all eventually proceeded with the 
shutdown or reboot. I have waited as long as six minutes. I have 
wondered how long the delay might get on a system that was running a lot 
of services.


I have seen an improvement in this behavior recently so that shutdown or 
reboot are almost always practically instant. The only remaining holdout 
has been my personal system -- the one from which I perform all the 
maintenance. If I just manually shut down a bunch of apps and the VPN 
connection and shut down or reboot immediately sometimes I'll see a 
minute's delay in the shutdown on that system.


Best,
JP


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Michael Biebl]

Am 2015-03-11 22:16, schrieb Martinx - ジェームズ:

Hey guys,

 With SysVinit or Upstart, when we stop/start a service, we can see a
feedback from the command output. Like service blah stopping...

 Also, we can use, for example, `echo $?`, after the command, to see
if it was executed according, or not, for example:

 cat /etc/passwd
 echo $?
 0

 cat /etc/blah
 echo $?
 1

 But, I'm not seeing the same behavior when using systemd commands...
I mean, how can I track systemd if it does provides any kind of
usual outputs to stdout?



What you describe, is only partially correct.

The return code of systemctl start/stop/restart etc, does actually 
indicate success or failure, as Christian Seiler already mentioned.


systemctl, like any good unix tool, simply is silent if there is nothing 
to report.


Having a --verbose switch might indeed be a useful addition, but I think 
it shouldn't be the default behaviour.


As for the behaviour during boot, it's similar: By default, if 
everything is fine and there is nothing to report, systemd is silent. It 
will automatically switch into verbose mode those, if a service fails or 
hits a timeout, i.e. takes a long time to start.



You can control that behaviour though.
If you want a sysvinit like behaviour, I'd suggest keeping the quiet 
kernel command line parameter. If you remove it, the boot screen will be 
splattered with kernel messages.


Instead, add systemd.show_status=true to the kernel command line (e.g. 
via /etc/default/grub).


See man systemd, section KERNEL COMMAND LINE

Cheers,
Michael




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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Don Armstrong]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015, Christian Seiler wrote:
 The verbosity notwithstanding, the exit code of 'systemctl start' does
 reflect if something goes wrong:

Ah, cool. This wasn't clear from the documentation, and I didn't have
time to read enough of the code to figure out whether this was actually
the case.


-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

We must realize that today's Establishment is the New George III.
Whether it will continue to adhere to his tactics, we do not know. If
it does, the redress, honored in tradition, is also revolution.
 -- William O. Douglas _Points of Rebellion_


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Michael Biebl]

Am 2015-03-12 22:59, schrieb Michael Biebl:

systemctl, like any good unix tool, simply is silent if there is
nothing to report.

Having a --verbose switch might indeed be a useful addition, but I
think it shouldn't be the default behaviour.


Just in case, anyone is wondering what I'm referring to here, it's

http://www.linfo.org/rule_of_silence.html


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2015-03-12 02:57:14 -0300, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
 By not polluting the Linux boot with starting this [OK], starting
 that [OK] The Debian boot is now more clear with systemd, then,

That's a matter of choice. Personally, I prefer a verbose boot.

 if I need a feedback, I can ask for it...

If the boot freezes, how can you ask feedback?

-- 
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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2015-03-12 09:39:14 +, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 01:44:23AM -0300, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
   Nevertheless, I think that it is weird that systemd is very different
  from what I've experienced in the past 20 years. For example, why the
  service's configuration files are stored at
  /lib/systemd/system/*.service and not directly under /etc? For God's
  sake...
 
 This is by design, and working around limitations in RPM (afaik).

IMHO, this has some advantages: In particular, one can always know
the current defaults. It's similar to hardcoded configuration in
binaries anyway (though this is more clear).

Note also that dpkg also has limitations: merging configuration
changes in the package is not supported.

  For example, with CentOS / RedHat, when you install httpd, it puts a
  symlink under /etc/httpd pointing to /var/log
 
 I don't see a problem with that. Upstream expect /etc/httpd/log, RH
 honour that but ensure the actual logs go to /var, as per FHS.

But what's the point of such a symlink?

 I prefer Red Hat's apache going to /etc/httpd over Debian's to
 /etc/apache2, personally…

The binary is called apache2, so that I prefer /etc/apache2. Why use
/etc/httpd, in particular assuming the fact that several HTTP servers
can be installed on the machine?

-- 
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100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: https://www.vinc17.net/blog/
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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2015-03-11 21:13:47 -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
 systemctl start foo  systemctl is-active foo;
[...]

 No. Really, all systemctl start/stop do is tell systemd to actually
 stop or start the service, and optionally block until the action is
 completed.

And according to the systemctl(1) man page, the default is to block,
so that the above command will work, if I understand correctly.

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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

On 12 March 2015 at 01:13, Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Mar 2015, The Wanderer wrote:
 Running those commands doesn't give you output from 'systemctl stop
 foo' or the like, however.

 I thought the OP was asking how to determine, from the exit code
 and/or the console output of 'systemctl stop foo' (or a similar
 command, one that actually _alters_ the status of a service), whether
 the command actually succeeded.

 If you want to know that, then do something like:

 systemctl start foo  systemctl is-active foo;

 or

 systemctl stop foo  ! systemctl is-active foo  ! systemctl is-failed \
 foo;

 Presumably you could even write a shell function to do this if that's
 something that you actually wanted.

 You can certainly run these commands afterwards, and get the status of
 the service that way, but that's no substitute for being able to get
 output or the like directly from the original control command.

 Does systemd really not provide any verbose mode for its
 service-control commands, in which they report what they are doing?

 No. Really, all systemctl start/stop do is tell systemd to actually stop
 or start the service, and optionally block until the action is
 completed.

 I suppose someone could make an argument that including a verbose flag
 or something might be useful, but considering that you can achieve
 similar functionality with existing discrete tools, I'm not sure that
 growing additional code and documentation to support such an option is
 worth it.

 Look at the definition of start_unit in
 http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/systemctl/systemctl.c
 for the current code.


 --
 Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

Now we're talking!

jessie-1:~# systemctl stop cups
Warning: Stopping cups.service, but it can still be activated by:
  cups.path
  cups.socket

jessie-1:~# systemctl is-active cups
inactive
jessie-1:~# echo $?
3

jessie-1:~# systemctl start cups
jessie-1:~# systemctl is-active cups
active
jessie-1:~# echo $?
0

That's it!

By not polluting the Linux boot with starting this [OK], starting
that [OK] The Debian boot is now more clear with systemd, then,
if I need a feedback, I can ask for it...

Thanks Don!

Best,
Thiago


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No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

Hey guys,

 With SysVinit or Upstart, when we stop/start a service, we can see a
feedback from the command output. Like service blah stopping...

 Also, we can use, for example, `echo $?`, after the command, to see
if it was executed according, or not, for example:

 cat /etc/passwd
 echo $?
 0

 cat /etc/blah
 echo $?
 1

 But, I'm not seeing the same behavior when using systemd commands...
I mean, how can I track systemd if it does provides any kind of
usual outputs to stdout?

 What am I missing?

Thanks!
Thiago


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Ron]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:16:48 -0300
Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote:

  What am I missing?

SysVinit...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
  The light at the end of the tunnel
may be the headlight of an approaching train.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Don Armstrong]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
  But, I'm not seeing the same behavior when using systemd commands...
 I mean, how can I track systemd if it does provides any kind of
 usual outputs to stdout?

  What am I missing?

If you want to know what the status of a service, you run

systemctl status foo;

If you want to test to see if a service is running, use:

systemctl is-active foo;


-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

She decided what she wished to happen and then assumed that reality
would bend to her wishes. [...] Reality doesn't indulge wishes.
 -- Terry Goodkind _Phantom_ p133


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2015-03-11, Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey guys,

  With SysVinit or Upstart, when we stop/start a service, we can see a
 feedback from the command output. Like service blah stopping...

You can do 'systemctl status blah.service'. It gives a nice summary
(with colour!) of the status of the service, and a snippet of the
relevant log file in context.


  Also, we can use, for example, `echo $?`, after the command, to see
 if it was executed according, or not, for example:

  cat /etc/passwd
  echo $?
  0

  cat /etc/blah
  echo $?
  1

The same applies for the command I gave above. However, in both cases
you're getting the exit code of the command, rather than the status of
the service.


  But, I'm not seeing the same behavior when using systemd commands...
 I mean, how can I track systemd if it does provides any kind of
 usual outputs to stdout?

  What am I missing?

 Thanks!
 Thiago



-- 

Liam



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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2015-03-11, Renaud OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:16:48 -0300
 Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote:

  What am I missing?

 SysVinit...

LOL. (Let's not start all that again.)

  
 Cheers,
  
 Ron.

-- 

Liam



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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Don Armstrong]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015, The Wanderer wrote:
 Running those commands doesn't give you output from 'systemctl stop
 foo' or the like, however.

 I thought the OP was asking how to determine, from the exit code
 and/or the console output of 'systemctl stop foo' (or a similar
 command, one that actually _alters_ the status of a service), whether
 the command actually succeeded.

If you want to know that, then do something like:

systemctl start foo  systemctl is-active foo;

or

systemctl stop foo  ! systemctl is-active foo  ! systemctl is-failed \
foo;

Presumably you could even write a shell function to do this if that's
something that you actually wanted.

 You can certainly run these commands afterwards, and get the status of
 the service that way, but that's no substitute for being able to get
 output or the like directly from the original control command.
 
 Does systemd really not provide any verbose mode for its
 service-control commands, in which they report what they are doing?

No. Really, all systemctl start/stop do is tell systemd to actually stop
or start the service, and optionally block until the action is
completed.

I suppose someone could make an argument that including a verbose flag
or something might be useful, but considering that you can achieve
similar functionality with existing discrete tools, I'm not sure that
growing additional code and documentation to support such an option is
worth it.

Look at the definition of start_unit in
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/systemctl/systemctl.c
for the current code.


-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

Live and learn
or die and teach by example
 -- a softer world #625
http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=625


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[Martinx - ジェームズ]

On 12 March 2015 at 01:13, Don Armstrong d...@debian.org wrote:

 On Wed, 11 Mar 2015, The Wanderer wrote:
  Running those commands doesn't give you output from 'systemctl stop
  foo' or the like, however.

  I thought the OP was asking how to determine, from the exit code
  and/or the console output of 'systemctl stop foo' (or a similar
  command, one that actually _alters_ the status of a service), whether
  the command actually succeeded.

 If you want to know that, then do something like:

 systemctl start foo  systemctl is-active foo;

 or

 systemctl stop foo  ! systemctl is-active foo  ! systemctl is-failed \
 foo;

 Presumably you could even write a shell function to do this if that's
 something that you actually wanted.

  You can certainly run these commands afterwards, and get the status of
  the service that way, but that's no substitute for being able to get
  output or the like directly from the original control command.
 
  Does systemd really not provide any verbose mode for its
  service-control commands, in which they report what they are doing?

 No. Really, all systemctl start/stop do is tell systemd to actually stop
 or start the service, and optionally block until the action is
 completed.

 I suppose someone could make an argument that including a verbose flag
 or something might be useful, but considering that you can achieve
 similar functionality with existing discrete tools, I'm not sure that
 growing additional code and documentation to support such an option is
 worth it.

 Look at the definition of start_unit in
 http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/systemctl/systemctl.c
 for the current code.


 --
 Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

Hey guys!

 Thanks for all the replies! I really appreciate it.

 Now, I'm understanding more about it, I'm fine with is-active |
is-failed systemd options.

 Nevertheless, I think that it is weird that systemd is very different
from what I've experienced in the past 20 years. For example, why the
service's configuration files are stored at
/lib/systemd/system/*.service and not directly under /etc? For God's
sake...

 I thought that Debian had rules to organize its file system. For
example, with CentOS / RedHat, when you install httpd, it puts a
symlink under /etc/httpd pointing to /var/log!! This means that RedHat
doesn't care about any HUGE mess on its file system, and that is
precisely why I'm a Debian user, because it is very well organized.
But now, unfortunately, I'm thinking about this kind of FS
organizations, again... Am I alone?

 BTW, sorry about the off-topic subject... But I would like to chat a
bit with you guys...  :-P

Cheers!
Thiago


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Re: No feedback from systemd / systemctl stop X... Nothing on stdout, nothing that `echo $?` can see...

[The Wanderer]

On 03/11/2015 at 06:41 PM, Don Armstrong wrote:

 On Wed, 11 Mar 2015, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote:
 
 But, I'm not seeing the same behavior when using systemd
 commands... I mean, how can I track systemd if it does provides
 any kind of usual outputs to stdout?
 
 What am I missing?
 
 If you want to know what the status of a service, you run
 
 systemctl status foo;
 
 If you want to test to see if a service is running, use:
 
 systemctl is-active foo;

Running those commands doesn't give you output from 'systemctl stop foo'
or the like, however.

I thought the OP was asking how to determine, from the exit code and/or
the console output of 'systemctl stop foo' (or a similar command, one
that actually _alters_ the status of a service), whether the command
actually succeeded.

You can certainly run these commands afterwards, and get the status of
the service that way, but that's no substitute for being able to get
output or the like directly from the original control command.

Does systemd really not provide any verbose mode for its
service-control commands, in which they report what they are doing?

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: XFCE upgrade wheezy-jessie feedback

[Aaron Taddei]

Martin,
This has to do with the panel separator in xfce 4.10.  You have to add
a separator between window buttons and workspace switcher.  Then you
need to set style to transparent and check the expand check box.  This
is how I was able to emulate xfce 4.8 in 4.10.

/VR
 Aaron

On 04/08/2014 12:03 PM, Martin Read wrote:
 Today, I upgraded my system from wheezy to jessie (mostly because I
 wanted to install the steam client). This has had at least two issues so
 far:
 
 First, the XFCE panel at the bottom of my screen has materially
 increased its height (causing the bottom edges of my commonly used
 applications to now lie behind the task bar) without me taking any
 configuration action. This was a minor issue, easily remedied, but I
 don't think I should have had to remedy it in the first place.
 
 Second, the clock, the notification area, and the workspace selector
 have changed their positioning behaviour. Instead of sitting in a fixed
 position at the bottom right of the screen as they did under wheezy,
 their horizontal position fluctuates according to the size of the Window
 Buttons item (which changes every time I open or close an application).
 
 This strikes me as clearly suboptimal, and unlike the issue with the
 panel height (just tweak a slider in the panel properties), I cannot
 readily find a way to revert the positioning behaviour of these items to
 what it was under wheezy.
 
 Can anyone advise?
 
 


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XFCE upgrade wheezy-jessie feedback

[Martin Read]

Today, I upgraded my system from wheezy to jessie (mostly because I 
wanted to install the steam client). This has had at least two issues so 
far:


First, the XFCE panel at the bottom of my screen has materially 
increased its height (causing the bottom edges of my commonly used 
applications to now lie behind the task bar) without me taking any 
configuration action. This was a minor issue, easily remedied, but I 
don't think I should have had to remedy it in the first place.


Second, the clock, the notification area, and the workspace selector 
have changed their positioning behaviour. Instead of sitting in a fixed 
position at the bottom right of the screen as they did under wheezy, 
their horizontal position fluctuates according to the size of the Window 
Buttons item (which changes every time I open or close an application).


This strikes me as clearly suboptimal, and unlike the issue with the 
panel height (just tweak a slider in the panel properties), I cannot 
readily find a way to revert the positioning behaviour of these items to 
what it was under wheezy.


Can anyone advise?


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Re: XFCE upgrade wheezy-jessie feedback

[Steven Rosenberg]

I'd say file some bugs against the packages in Jessie.

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On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote:

 Today, I upgraded my system from wheezy to jessie (mostly because I wanted
 to install the steam client). This has had at least two issues so far:

 First, the XFCE panel at the bottom of my screen has materially increased
 its height (causing the bottom edges of my commonly used applications to
 now lie behind the task bar) without me taking any configuration action.
 This was a minor issue, easily remedied, but I don't think I should have
 had to remedy it in the first place.

 Second, the clock, the notification area, and the workspace selector have
 changed their positioning behaviour. Instead of sitting in a fixed position
 at the bottom right of the screen as they did under wheezy, their
 horizontal position fluctuates according to the size of the Window Buttons
 item (which changes every time I open or close an application).

 This strikes me as clearly suboptimal, and unlike the issue with the panel
 height (just tweak a slider in the panel properties), I cannot readily find
 a way to revert the positioning behaviour of these items to what it was
 under wheezy.

 Can anyone advise?


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Code source Joystik, feedback

[ptilou]

Bonsoir,

Je suppose que c'est op ?
Si oui je cherche le code source et plus particulièrement la partie feeddback.

Merci

Ptilou

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Re: Feedback on software

[Darac Marjal]

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 06:59:20PM +0100, benjamin kent wrote:
 Hello everybody.
 
 Lately I encountered trouble with a MP3 player using the FAT file-system.
 As others had this problem, too , I wrote a little tool.
 
 http://sourceforge.net/projects/plgen/?source=navbar
 
 https://freecode.com/projects/plgen
 
 Do you have any ideas on how to obtain more feedback on this program?
 In addition, I somehow got a DEB that works. As this is my first DEB
 experience, and honestly, I am not much of a package-maker,
 I would appreciate feedback on this, too.

Talk to the good people on the debian-mentors list.



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Re: Feedback on software

[benjamin kent]

On 03/15/2013 10:35 AM, Darac Marjal wrote:

Talk to the good people on the debian-mentors list.
   

Thank you very much Darac Marjal!

Have a nice time,
Benjamin


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Feedback on software

[benjamin kent]

Hello everybody.

Lately I encountered trouble with a MP3 player using the FAT file-system.
As others had this problem, too , I wrote a little tool.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/plgen/?source=navbar

https://freecode.com/projects/plgen

Do you have any ideas on how to obtain more feedback on this program?
In addition, I somehow got a DEB that works. As this is my first DEB
experience, and honestly, I am not much of a package-maker,
I would appreciate feedback on this, too.

Thankful and eager to collect your ideas,
Benjamin


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