Re: Keyboard and locale problems
David W.E. Roberts wrote: Bob, thanks for all the useful info. I had been led to beleive that if you did a HD install of Knoppix then you had a Debian installation which could then be updated to the latest version by using 'apt-get update'. (read with me making puzzled faces about how to explain it) Not quite. KNOPPIX is a very tricked out hot rod car. It has many non-standard components making it a one-off. But it is really cool. The packages installed on it are a combination of Debian unstable plus many other sources of packges plus custom packages. I don't know if anyone other than the author really knows the combination to be able to update it. One of the problems I have run into is that it is assembled from bleeding edge locations which change often. By the time I go to update it the world around it has changed. Sources will have dried up and new ones created. Those need to be tracked. That interesting combination of installed software means that things won't be completely consistent. It is not a pure Debian system. It appears to have pieces of RH and pieces of this and pieces of that. So if you know the heritage of those components you would say it all makes sense. But if you don't then you have to figure it out. Asking in the debian-user makes sense but it is not really a Debian system and so we who are running Debian go /etc/sysconfig? What's that? If you ask in a RH forum they would go /etc/network/interfaces? What's that? Don't get me wrong. KNOPPIX is a fine system. I wish I had created it and would be proud of it if I had done so. But the goal of KNOPPIX is not to install Debian. The goal of KNOPPIX is to boot a highly functional system as a *live-cd* boot. It does that admirably. And Klaus Knopper is an expert. Therefore some expert tricks were used assemble those high functioning pieces into the system. I read in an interview once that Klaus had created the system for his own purposes but that everyone who saw it wanted it and so eventually he released it. I don't think his original intention was create a new distro. To compund my problems, when using 'dpkg-reconfigure' on the text console or via a remote 'xterm' I get a GUI which is reminiscent of VGA utilities under DOS but which will not recognise arrow keys. Being non-graphical, non-X, they can almost always be run no matter what state the system is in. Life is good. So I can select the first option with the space bar, tab to OK or Cancel and hit Return, but nothing more. Udders and bulls springs to mind. This has me puzzled because arrow keys are common between US and UK (and I guess most other) keyboards. This is why mailing list resonses should be kept on the mailing list. Please don't take the discussion offlist. I have no idea about why the cursor keys would not be working for you. But someone else on the list will have an idea about it. Makes me think your TERM veriable is not set right. What term setting are you using? I am assuming you have 'ncurses-term' installed to get the terminfo database /usr/share/terminfo/* installed. I have sorted out my 'locale' problems; I am now GB not UKraine. However this has not sorted my keyboard problems - will try the 'install-keymap uk.kmap.gz'. Or one of the other keymaps under /usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwert[yz]/*. The reason I went with Knoppix was because of the superb hardware recognition - my previous attempt with RH 7.3 didn't pick up the USB card, the floppy tape, or the ISA sound card. Does a 'vanilla' Debian install have the same quality of hardware recognition? The current released Debian 'woody' does not feature any automatic hardware detection. None. Instead the user is expected to state the drivers needed using 'modconf' or other utility or by hand in the /etc/modules file. This is the way all distros used to be 'back in the day. Since Debian is upgradable in place there is never a need to reinstall. Only rarely do people install Debian for the first time. Once installed one just upgrades it forever. This means that having automatic hardware detection has not been an itch for developers to scratch. For me personally I used to disable another automatic hardware detection program of another well known distro because it would cause me trouble. So personally I never missed not having it. However, because of the natural movement of users from distro to distro there has been a lot of pressure to add knoppix style automatic hardware detection to Debian. It is one of the frequently asked questions on the debian user list. The next Debian release 'sarge' will have automatic hardware detection using the same mechanism that knoppix uses. With 'sarge' I am going to need to relearn how to drive things since the system will start to automatically do things that I won't expect of it. :-) Unfortunately Debian has not made a new release since the previous 'woody'. This is a very highly debated and flamed topic on the
Re: Keyboard and locale problems
On Monday 17 May 2004 11:44, Bob Proulx wrote: David W.E. Roberts wrote: Bob, thanks for all the useful info. I had been led to beleive that if you did a HD install of Knoppix then you had a Debian installation which could then be updated to the latest version by using 'apt-get update'. (read with me making puzzled faces about how to explain it) Not quite. KNOPPIX is a very tricked out hot rod car. It has many non-standard components making it a one-off. But it is really cool. The packages [...] won't be completely consistent. It is not a pure Debian system. It [...] A lot of negative things have been said here about upgrading from Knoppix. I'd just like to add that I have had _no_ problems of this sort (plenty of others, but not things I can blame on the original Knoppix install. My desktop machine has been tracking testing for months since I installed Knoppix 3.2. My laptop did too (it has now been reconfigured for another use). I have another machine installed from Knoppix and again have not suffered any problems. The reason I went with Knoppix was because of the superb hardware recognition - my previous attempt with RH 7.3 didn't pick up the USB card, the floppy tape, or the ISA sound card. [...] That was my original motivation too. The speed of initial set-up is also a factor. I have recently installed my new laptop with Mepis, to see how it compares. It seemed to me as effective as Knoppix at hardware recognition, and is better set up for installing to the hard drive - tools for this are in the initial menu structure. Again, to date, I have had no problems with upgrades. You might like to try this option as an alternative. Mepis now makes a small charge for the download - at least the latest version: I forget whether the older version is still free. Well worth a few dollars, IMHO. Both of the above appear to hold a bunch of packages at certain releases (at least, I assume they did it, rather than some slip of my fingers). I have arbitrarily released any that I felt would be nice to get more up to date, and occasionally had to release a few extras to satisfy dependencies. Using aptitude, this has not been stressful - even with my almost total state of ignorance of the apt-get machinery. So my boxes are in transit between knoppishness or mepishness and pure debishness. A transition that seems to me painless - and any inconvenience certainly worth it for the ability to have a working system in half an hour. Needless to say, YMMV. -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard and locale problems
David W.E. Roberts wrote: I have just done a hard disc install of Knoppix 3.3 which gives me Debian 2.4.24-xfs. Well, actually no. It does not give you a Debian 2.4.24-xfs kernel. It gives you a Knoppix 2.4.24-xfs kernel. Knoppix is a fork of Debian that uses the same packaging system and things are in many ways very much still Debian. But in other ways things are very different. You have fallen into a trap. Knoppix is an absolutely awesome live-cd system. But in my opinion it is not so good for an installation that you will need to keep updated. Really only an expert can update it because it is so unique. Like a tricked out hot rod car it has a lot of one-off features. I am having problems with my graphics card (Matrox MGA Millenium) and so cannot run a GUI on the box itself. I have a system with a Matrox Millenium. I have a pure Debian woody installation on it and it runs X11 without issue. I say this only to say that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the combination. It should work fine. But that card is rather old and very slow with X. Don't expect much performance from it and you will be happy. The amount of graphics memory varied on those cards. Having enough is an important factor. I had 8MB and was okay. This means that I miss out on all the graphical configuration tools which come with the KDE desktop, and I have to manage the system remotely using an X-Server on my Windows PC. The Matrox Millenium was a great card in its day. But now by comparison I want more. So for me I don't run any of the X tools on that system. I do everything either on the console in text or remotely. First problem - can't find any obvious X (or even non-X) configuration tool widgets to automate configuration (such as found under KDE or like 'linuxconf' under RedHat). If you are looking to reconfigure the X package then this is the way to do it. Or you can tell it no and manage the file by hand. dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 Second problem - I am stuck with a US keyboard layout and a UK keyboard. I seem to recall a flag on the knoppix toolbar which would all you to flip the keyboard from one layout to another. You can use the 'install-keymap' command to install other keymaps. See the man page for details. I think the following is what you want. But note that I have only used us keyboards and keymaps. So I don't know if that is the right keymap or not for your keyboard. install-keymap uk.kmap.gz I am trying to change the default 'locale' settings in /etc/sysconfig, but I can't seem to get the settings right. Now you are getting into some of the differences between Knoppix and Debian. Debian does not have any /etc/sysconfig directory. That is a Red Hat directory. I infer that Klaus Knopper must be using a mix of software in Knoppix which is somehow making use of that configuration. But the Debian native programs won't be using it. If so then it is going to be inconsistent in that some programs do things one way and which programs do things another way. It will be a confusing mess. You would probably have better luck getting help with that from one of the knoppix user lists. (Not that I know anything about them. But they must exist, right?) If you want to reconfigure the locales on your system then this is a good way to do it. dpkg-reconfigure locales Select the locales you would like to generate. Then it will ask you if you want to set a default locale. This will set up /etc/environment which is used by PAM for login sessions. Why does Knoppix have /etc/sysconfig? I have no idea since I am not a Knoppix expert. But it is probably cross-pollination from the other distro. Probably you would need to set up both because some software was installed on it from Red Hat which uses it. [BTW why is the configuration file named 'i18n'?] It is an abbreviation for internationalization. 'i' 18 letters 'n'. Another abbreviation in that same area is l10n for localization. From browsing man pages I think it should be 'en_uk' or 'en_UK'; however if I fire up a new xterm 'locale returns: locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory I think you just need to generate the locale data. Once you have ddone the dpkg-reconfigure locales above it should exist. Any assistance gratefully received; I have been spoiled by automated configuration tools and going back to editing text configuration files is causing me some pain :-) Imagine an old grizzled grandfather type of character saying Builds character. (That description is not me. But imagine it anyway. :-) But I think all of the commands I suggested were captured user interfaces without any need to edit any files. So you should be good there. :-) Bob pgpm355iC12Jj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Keyboard and locale problems
Hi, I have just done a hard disc install of Knoppix 3.3 which gives me Debian 2.4.24-xfs. I am having problems with my graphics card (Matrox MGA Millenium) and so cannot run a GUI on the box itself. This means that I miss out on all the graphical configuration tools which come with the KDE desktop, and I have to manage the system remotely using an X-Server on my Windows PC. First problem - can't find any obvious X (or even non-X) configuration tool widgets to automate configuration (such as found under KDE or like 'linuxconf' under RedHat). Second problem - I am stuck with a US keyboard layout and a UK keyboard. I am trying to change the default 'locale' settings in /etc/sysconfig, but I can't seem to get the settings right. [BTW why is the configuration file named 'i18n'?] From browsing man pages I think it should be 'en_uk' or 'en_UK'; however if I fire up a new xterm 'locale returns: g# locale locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory LANG=en_UK LC_CTYPE=en_UK LC_NUMERIC=en_UK LC_TIME=en_UK LC_COLLATE=en_UK LC_MONETARY=en_UK LC_MESSAGES=en_UK LC_PAPER=en_UK LC_NAME=en_UK LC_ADDRESS=en_UK LC_TELEPHONE=en_UK LC_MEASUREMENT=en_UK LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_UK LC_ALL= My i18n configuration file contains: :/etc/sysconfig# cat i18n LANG=en_UK COUNTRY=uk LANGUAGE=uk CHARSET=iso8859-1 XMODIFIERS= The original was: :/etc/sysconfig# cat i18n.old LANG=C COUNTRY=us LANGUAGE=us CHARSET=iso8859-1 XMODIFIERS= Any assistance gratefully received; I have been spoiled by automated configuration tools and going back to editing text configuration files is causing me some pain :-) TIA Dave R -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Keyboard and locale problems
Hi, I have just done a hard disc install of Knoppix 3.3 which gives me Debian 2.4.24-xfs. I am having problems with my graphics card (Matrox MGA Millenium) and so cannot run a GUI on the box itself. This means that I miss out on all the graphical configuration tools which come with the KDE desktop, and I have to manage the system remotely using an X-Server on my Windows PC. First problem - can't find any obvious X (or even non-X) configuration tool widgets to automate configuration (such as found under KDE or like 'linuxconf' under RedHat). Second problem - I am stuck with a US keyboard layout and a UK keyboard. I am trying to change the default 'locale' settings in /etc/sysconfig, but I can't seem to get the settings right. [BTW why is the configuration file named 'i18n'?] From browsing man pages I think it should be 'en_uk' or 'en_UK'; however if I fire up a new xterm 'locale returns: g# locale locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory LANG=en_UK LC_CTYPE=en_UK LC_NUMERIC=en_UK LC_TIME=en_UK LC_COLLATE=en_UK LC_MONETARY=en_UK LC_MESSAGES=en_UK LC_PAPER=en_UK LC_NAME=en_UK LC_ADDRESS=en_UK LC_TELEPHONE=en_UK LC_MEASUREMENT=en_UK LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_UK LC_ALL= My i18n configuration file contains: :/etc/sysconfig# cat i18n LANG=en_UK COUNTRY=uk LANGUAGE=uk CHARSET=iso8859-1 XMODIFIERS= The original was: :/etc/sysconfig# cat i18n.old LANG=C COUNTRY=us LANGUAGE=us CHARSET=iso8859-1 XMODIFIERS= Any assistance gratefully received; I have been spoiled by automated configuration tools and going back to editing text configuration files is causing me some pain :-) TIA Dave R -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard and locale problems
On Saturday 15 May 2004 11:31, David W.E. Roberts wrote: Hi, I have just done a hard disc install of Knoppix 3.3 which gives me Debian 2.4.24-xfs. [...] Second problem - I am stuck with a US keyboard layout and a UK keyboard. I am trying to change the default 'locale' settings in /etc/sysconfig, but I can't seem to get the settings right. [BTW why is the configuration file named 'i18n'?] From browsing man pages I think it should be 'en_uk' or 'en_UK'; I started kde yesterday in order to try to resolve a similar issue - I thought I'd then be able to read the config files kde had written, but I can't find them. However, I have got an arrangement I can live with now, inasmuch as the keyboard has the same characters on it that show up on the screen. I failed to get the euro symbol so far... however if I fire up a new xterm 'locale returns: g# locale locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory LANG=en_UK [...etc...] On my system, locale now shows LANG=en_GB LC_CTYPE=en_GB ...etc... LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_GB LC_ALL= My i18n configuration file contains: :/etc/sysconfig# cat i18n I have no file called i18n anywhere on the system - plenty of directories and filenames including 'i18n', but all in /usr/share, var/lib and var/cache. Nothing in /etc and nothing in /home -- so whatever kde configured is not that. This particular laptop was a mepis rather than a knoppix install. I have a desktop that originally came from knoppix, and it does have the /etc/sysconfig/i18n file. I'll fiddle with that and see if I learn anything. BTW do you know how to read in a newly edited version without rebooting the whole system? -- richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard and locale problems
On Sat, May 15, 2004 at 04:41:22PM +0100, David W.E. Roberts wrote: From browsing man pages I think it should be 'en_uk' or 'en_UK'; 'UK' is the Ukraine in locales; you want 'en_GB'. My i18n configuration file contains: :/etc/sysconfig# cat i18n /etc/sysconfig doesn't sound very Debianish ... Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard and locale problems
Colin Watson wrote: On Sat, May 15, 2004 at 04:41:22PM +0100, David W.E. Roberts wrote: From browsing man pages I think it should be 'en_uk' or 'en_UK'; 'UK' is the Ukraine in locales; you want 'en_GB'. My i18n configuration file contains: :/etc/sysconfig# cat i18n /etc/sysconfig doesn't sound very Debianish ... No, but when I installed KNOPPMYTH, based upon KNOPPIX, the other day I saw that directory tree there. The system was a strange mix of distro components. I can see why people who install KNOPPIX have trouble maintaining or upgrading it. It is a really sweet live cd booting system. But not so good for a long term installation. Bob pgpMqjREArbcU.pgp Description: PGP signature
