Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: In BANLkTi=m6C59fqnTkzdR=cgmzg178qw...@mail.gmail.com, Tom H wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Rob Owens row...@ptd.net wrote: With Ubuntu (I believe) you get 5 years for a server and 3 years for a desktop if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server packages and what ones are desktop packages? Server = X-less so WM-less, DE-less, GUI-less Do you have any documentation to support this assertion? Get a Ubuntu server CD and try to install GNOME from it without network access. Read through the ubuntu-server list archives. How else would they offer different EOL for desktop and server? I'll try to find something for you on ubuntu.com... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktin5prup_dp5t+brn_snly13ee5...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: In BANLkTi=m6C59fqnTkzdR=cgmzg178qw...@mail.gmail.com, Tom H wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Rob Owens row...@ptd.net wrote: With Ubuntu (I believe) you get 5 years for a server and 3 years for a desktop if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server packages and what ones are desktop packages? Server = X-less so WM-less, DE-less, GUI-less Do you have any documentation to support this assertion? Get a Ubuntu server CD and try to install GNOME from it without network access. Read through the ubuntu-server list archives. How else would they offer different EOL for desktop and server? I'll try to find something for you on ubuntu.com... From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI X11 and desktop packages are not supported for the full 5 year lifecycle of the LTS server release From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerFaq The Server CD avoids including what Ubuntu considers desktop packages (packages like X, Gnome or KDE) and The Ubuntu Server Edition installation process is slightly different from the Desktop Edition. Since by default Ubuntu Server doesn't have a GUI, the process is menu driven, very similar to the Alternate CD installation process. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTinGv_S08U=au06unmg-70o3hjq...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Thu, Apr 07, 2011 at 07:08:54AM -0400, Tom H wrote: On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: In BANLkTi=m6C59fqnTkzdR=cgmzg178qw...@mail.gmail.com, Tom H wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Rob Owens row...@ptd.net wrote: With Ubuntu (I believe) you get 5 years for a server and 3 years for a desktop if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server packages and what ones are desktop packages? Server = X-less so WM-less, DE-less, GUI-less Do you have any documentation to support this assertion? Get a Ubuntu server CD and try to install GNOME from it without network access. Read through the ubuntu-server list archives. How else would they offer different EOL for desktop and server? I'll try to find something for you on ubuntu.com... From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI X11 and desktop packages are not supported for the full 5 year lifecycle of the LTS server release From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerFaq The Server CD avoids including what Ubuntu considers desktop packages (packages like X, Gnome or KDE) and The Ubuntu Server Edition installation process is slightly different from the Desktop Edition. Since by default Ubuntu Server doesn't have a GUI, the process is menu driven, very similar to the Alternate CD installation process. The download page, in the Desktop section, states Our long-term support (LTS) releases are supported for three years on the desktop. http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download I agree that your above references generally agree with server=x-less, but it seems like the support folks must have a list of packages that they keep up with in years 4 and 5, and it sure would be nice for them to share that list with the public. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110407220834.gc13...@aurora.owens.net
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 05:55:30PM +0200, Klistvud wrote: The leap from Lenny to Squeeze is not that big, after all. It's just like having Lenny on steroids. There are just too many goodies in Squeeze not to upgrade. What's the big fuss? I've upgraded my better half and our two kids to Squeeze and, apart from the new boot theme/wallpaper, they never even noticed it. So, if I'm following this correctly, you should upgrade from lenny to squeeze because it's chock full of goodies, but (aside from the boot theme/wallpaper) you'll never notice whether those goodies are there or not? If the goodies aren't noticable, then they don't sound like a very compelling reason to upgrade. (I'm not saying you shouldn't upgrade, just that those two paragraphs seem to contradict each other.) -- Dave Sherohman -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110406071407.gd32...@sherohman.org
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
Dne, 06. 04. 2011 09:14:07 je Dave Sherohman napisal(a): On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 05:55:30PM +0200, Klistvud wrote: The leap from Lenny to Squeeze is not that big, after all. It's just like having Lenny on steroids. There are just too many goodies in Squeeze not to upgrade. What's the big fuss? I've upgraded my better half and our two kids to Squeeze and, apart from the new boot theme/wallpaper, they never even noticed it. So, if I'm following this correctly, you should upgrade from lenny to squeeze because it's chock full of goodies, but (aside from the boot theme/wallpaper) you'll never notice whether those goodies are there or not? If the goodies aren't noticable, then they don't sound like a very compelling reason to upgrade. (I'm not saying you shouldn't upgrade, just that those two paragraphs seem to contradict each other.) My better half and my two kids are just average -- shall I say extremely average -- users and they didn't notice, because aside from the theme/wallpaper and the slight Iceweasel makeover, all the other goodies are mainly under the hood. They actually didn't notice that we had moved from ext3 to ext4 and that the fsck is waaay faster now; they didn't notice that the bluetooth stack has become substantially more robust; they didn't notice that the boot time has been cut in half, because we hardly ever reboot our family computer; they didn't notice that more hardware is supported now; they didn't notice that we can finally use the free radeon driver now (instead of fglrx) because it's become fast enough; they didn't notice that by upgrading we've obtained, what, 3 additional years of support and security fixes? They hardly noticed that the suspend/hibernation is working better, or that ooo can recognize and import some more recent document formats now, or that the wireless has no more disconnects to speak of, or the changes with xorg and hal and udev, or that I don't have to restart autofs/fuse every once in a while anymore. The fact that they didn't *notice* most of these changes doesn't mean they aren't there. They are. I can tell by the number of times they call me to fix the computer that's having its fits again. Those occasions have decreased. Noticeably. ;) -- Cheerio, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1302079475.3780.0@compax
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:37:16PM -0700, Mark wrote: On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Freeman hew...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:03:41PM -0400, Matt Harrison wrote: On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote: Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is supported for how long? I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT. Who cares? Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. With Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With SLE* you can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE* timeframe. With Ubuntu (I believe) you get 5 years for a server and 3 years for a desktop if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server packages and what ones are desktop packages? I don't know. It would be nice to see a list somewhere. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110406231712.gb7...@aurora.owens.net
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Rob Owens row...@ptd.net wrote: With Ubuntu (I believe) you get 5 years for a server and 3 years for a desktop if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server packages and what ones are desktop packages? I don't know. It would be nice to see a list somewhere. Server = X-less so WM-less, DE-less, GUI-less -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTi=m6C59fqnTkzdR=cgmzg178qw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
In 20110406231712.gb7...@aurora.owens.net, Rob Owens wrote: With Ubuntu (I believe) you get 5 years for a server and 3 years for a desktop if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server packages and what ones are desktop packages? According to documents on Canonical's site, there is no difference in package selection. I quoted directly from such a document earlier in the thread. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
In BANLkTi=m6C59fqnTkzdR=cgmzg178qw...@mail.gmail.com, Tom H wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Rob Owens row...@ptd.net wrote: With Ubuntu (I believe) you get 5 years for a server and 3 years for a desktop if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server packages and what ones are desktop packages? Server = X-less so WM-less, DE-less, GUI-less Do you have any documentation to support this assertion? -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
Hypothetically if a user doesn't want to upgrade to Squeeze, what would they have to do once Lenny stops being supported by Debian? Let's assume the machines are used primarily for web surfing, including using flash. Would they need to install Firefox manually once Lenny stops getting updates for Iceweasel? What other hiccups would they encounter? If the machines run great with Lenny then what is the reason to give a user to upgrade if they're perfectly happy with what they have and don't want it changed? Thanks for any ideas. Mark
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
security updates protocol updates (IPv6 is comming to town) most users deal better with smaller and incremental interface changes 2011/4/5 Mark mamar...@gmail.com Hypothetically if a user doesn't want to upgrade to Squeeze, what would they have to do once Lenny stops being supported by Debian? Let's assume the machines are used primarily for web surfing, including using flash. Would they need to install Firefox manually once Lenny stops getting updates for Iceweasel? What other hiccups would they encounter? If the machines run great with Lenny then what is the reason to give a user to upgrade if they're perfectly happy with what they have and don't want it changed? Thanks for any ideas. Mark -- Leonardo Ruoso - Jornalista/Desenvolvedor Assessoria de Imprensa. Consultoria de Marketing. Desenvolvimento e Integração de Software. Comunicação Social/Jornalismo - UFC/2006. Telecomunicações - ETFCE/1998. Foos, Perl, Debian Gnu/Linux, Agile, UML, DBA e OOP. Coaching/NLP. Inglês e Francês. http://leonardo.ruoso.com - http://www.linkedin.com/in/lruoso
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
Dne, 05. 04. 2011 16:56:13 je Mark napisal(a): Hypothetically if a user doesn't want to upgrade to Squeeze, what would they have to do once Lenny stops being supported by Debian? Let's assume the machines are used primarily for web surfing, including using flash. Would they need to install Firefox manually once Lenny stops getting updates for Iceweasel? What other hiccups would they encounter? If the machines run great with Lenny then what is the reason to give a user to upgrade if they're perfectly happy with what they have and don't want it changed? Thanks for any ideas. Mark The true reasons for their reluctance to upgrade should be carefully assessed. The leap from Lenny to Squeeze is not that big, after all. It's just like having Lenny on steroids. There are just too many goodies in Squeeze not to upgrade. What's the big fuss? I've upgraded my better half and our two kids to Squeeze and, apart from the new boot theme/wallpaper, they never even noticed it. Is some piece of hardware not supported anymore? Then, I'd try an alternative driver, or try to make the old driver work (perhaps by manually recompiling etc.). Is there a particular package that's no longer supported in Squeeze? I'd compile it from source, or find an alternative. Is the new theme the problem? Then, I'd upgrade them to Squeeze and manually install the old Lenny wallpaper. For a particularly stubborn user, I'd just install Squeeze on a separate partition and make it the Grub default -- leaving them the freedom to boot Lenny if they so wish. -- Cheerio, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1302018930.8149.0@compax
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
On Tue, 05 Apr 2011 07:56:13 -0700, Mark wrote: Hypothetically if a user doesn't want to upgrade to Squeeze, what would they have to do once Lenny stops being supported by Debian? The user should track security flaws by himself and apply the patches (which usually involves compiling). Let's assume the machines are used primarily for web surfing, including using flash. Would they need to install Firefox manually once Lenny stops getting updates for Iceweasel? Sure, if the user wants to be on the safe side :-) What other hiccups would they encounter? I'd be fear of kernel flaws, those of stock libraries (glib) or the ones affecting the whole DE (gnome, kde...) not only exploits involving concrete applications. Remember that security is the sum of all involved parts and those parts are not isolated. If the machines run great with Lenny then what is the reason to give a user to upgrade if they're perfectly happy with what they have and don't want it changed? Having a computer connected to Internet is always a risk which decreases with an updated system. It does not have to happen nothing bad, but who knows... better safe that sorry. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2011.04.05.16.34...@gmail.com
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
On 2011-04-05 09:56:13 Mark wrote: Hypothetically if a user doesn't want to upgrade to Squeeze, what would they have to do once Lenny stops being supported by Debian? Eventually, they will get owned and become a zombie that SPAMs (or worse) the rest of us. Depending on the amount of effort you are capable of, this may be decades later. By the time an oldstable is retired, it has already had a lot of attacks thrown at it and hasn't had new code introduced in quite a while. But, eventually, it will happen; sometimes exploits have come out mere weeks after an oldstable is retired that affects the software in it. Please don't use Lenny after Debian drops security support. If you need more support than Debian provides and = 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. If you need more than 5 years of security support, look into SLE* or RHEL. You can get up to 10 years on security support on a SLE* release. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 11:42:42AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: If you need more support than Debian provides and = 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. That won't buy you that much AFAIK since the LTS 5 years support it's limited to the server version and doesn't include universe(?). Ok at least you've some baseline with a kernel and some core libs but that's it. Sven -- And I don't know much, but I do know this: With a golden heart comes a rebel fist. [ Streetlight Manifesto - Here's To Life ] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405165116.GK19401@marvin
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
On 2011-04-05 09:56:13 Mark wrote: If you need more support than Debian provides and= 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server version, 3 years for the desktop version. George -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d9b4881.2070...@gmail.com
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
On 2011-04-05 11:51:13 George Standish wrote: If you need more support than Debian provides and= 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server version, 3 years for the desktop version. They use the same repositories. What exactly is the difference? Does the server version not include restricted? (Like neither version includes universe or multiverse.) -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...
On 05/04/11 01:04 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On 2011-04-05 11:51:13 George Standish wrote: If you need more support than Debian provides and= 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server version, 3 years for the desktop version. They use the same repositories. What exactly is the difference? Does the server version not include restricted? (Like neither version includes universe or multiverse.) I'm really not sure, I've only used the desktop version (besides some very superficial installs of server in a VM). Sorry, I'm no help. George -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d9b4c44.7020...@gmail.com
Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On 2011-04-05 12:07:16 George Standish wrote: On 05/04/11 01:04 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On 2011-04-05 11:51:13 George Standish wrote: If you need more support than Debian provides and= 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server version, 3 years for the desktop version. They use the same repositories. What exactly is the difference? Does the server version not include restricted? (Like neither version includes universe or multiverse.) I'm really not sure, I've only used the desktop version (besides some very superficial installs of server in a VM). From http://www.canonical.com/sites/default/files/active/Top_10_ServerQA_Eng_WP_AW_0.pdf: 10. Can I install server packages on an Ubuntu Desktop installation and vice versa? Yes – Ubuntu’s flexibility makes it easy. The Ubuntu software repositories do not isolate packages to particular types of deployments. All the server software in the repositories is available to the desktop user, and all the desktop software can also be installed on the server. This means Ubuntu provides a simple testing platform, where software can be trialled, adapted and configured on a systems administrator’s workstation easily, before being deployed on the server. tl;dr: No difference. Responding to something elsewhere in the thread. universe and multiverse are not covered under desktop edition or server edition support. They are sort of like non-free -- best effort support. That said, there's a lot of good people on the MotU team that keeps universe in descent shape for a year or so after a release, but I wouldn't count on 5 years. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: On 2011-04-05 12:07:16 George Standish wrote: On 05/04/11 01:04 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On 2011-04-05 11:51:13 George Standish wrote: If you need more support than Debian provides and= 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server version, 3 years for the desktop version. They use the same repositories. What exactly is the difference? Does the server version not include restricted? (Like neither version includes universe or multiverse.) I'm really not sure, I've only used the desktop version (besides some very superficial installs of server in a VM). From http://www.canonical.com/sites/default/files/active/Top_10_ServerQA_Eng_WP_AW_0.pdf: 10. Can I install server packages on an Ubuntu Desktop installation and vice versa? Yes – Ubuntu’s flexibility makes it easy. The Ubuntu software repositories do not isolate packages to particular types of deployments. All the server software in the repositories is available to the desktop user, and all the desktop software can also be installed on the server. This means Ubuntu provides a simple testing platform, where software can be trialled, adapted and configured on a systems administrator’s workstation easily, before being deployed on the server. tl;dr: No difference. Responding to something elsewhere in the thread. universe and multiverse are not covered under desktop edition or server edition support. They are sort of like non-free -- best effort support. That said, there's a lot of good people on the MotU team that keeps universe in descent shape for a year or so after a release, but I wouldn't count on 5 years. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/ Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is supported for how long? Who cares? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTi=0t+kgllf4fvrssdirqa1f8h1...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote: On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: On 2011-04-05 12:07:16 George Standish wrote: On 05/04/11 01:04 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On 2011-04-05 11:51:13 George Standish wrote: If you need more support than Debian provides and= 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server version, 3 years for the desktop version. They use the same repositories. What exactly is the difference? I'm really not sure. From http://www.canonical.com/sites/default/files/active/Top_10_ServerQA_Eng_W P_AW_0.pdf: 10. Can I install server packages on an Ubuntu Desktop installation and vice versa? Yes – Ubuntu’s flexibility makes it easy. The Ubuntu software repositories do not isolate packages to particular types of deployments. All the server software in the repositories is available to the desktop user, and all the desktop software can also be installed on the server. tl;dr: No difference. Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is supported for how long? I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT. Who cares? Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. With Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With SLE* you can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE* timeframe. There are a number of organizations that would prefer to put hardware out in the field with a certain image and only apply security and important bug fixes for the life of the hardware. If the hardware refresh cycle is 3 years, you can always install the latest Ubuntu LTS at deployment time and be good for 3 years; that's not true of Debian (e.g. deployments in fall 2010). If the hardware refresh cycle is 5 years, you can always install the latest SLES + SP and be good for 5 years; that's not true of Ubuntu (e.g. deployments that don't fall more or less exactly on an LTS release date). I prefer Debian, but I haven't had to manage 100s or 1000s of installations where my main IT staff only has remote access or tried to completely script a change from oldstable - stable. I'm sure it's possible, but it probably requires more work than just updating the systems within the same release. I'm also not that interested is chipping on an effort to maintain Debian oldstable any longer than it is supported now. For my purposes, the 1 year time frame given to execute an oldstable - stable transition has always been more than enough. I should also note that Debian's support is (usually) for every package in main. This is a much larger selection of software that is in Ubuntu's main+restricted or within the SLE* support matrix. So, there are definitely cases where Debian's support is best-in-class. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote: On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: On 2011-04-05 12:07:16 George Standish wrote: On 05/04/11 01:04 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On 2011-04-05 11:51:13 George Standish wrote: If you need more support than Debian provides and= 5 years, install an Ubuntu LTS. Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server version, 3 years for the desktop version. They use the same repositories. What exactly is the difference? I'm really not sure. From http://www.canonical.com/sites/default/files/active/Top_10_ServerQA_Eng_W P_AW_0.pdf: 10. Can I install server packages on an Ubuntu Desktop installation and vice versa? Yes – Ubuntu’s flexibility makes it easy. The Ubuntu software repositories do not isolate packages to particular types of deployments. All the server software in the repositories is available to the desktop user, and all the desktop software can also be installed on the server. tl;dr: No difference. Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is supported for how long? I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT. Who cares? Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. With Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With SLE* you can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE* timeframe. There are a number of organizations that would prefer to put hardware out in the field with a certain image and only apply security and important bug fixes for the life of the hardware. If the hardware refresh cycle is 3 years, you can always install the latest Ubuntu LTS at deployment time and be good for 3 years; that's not true of Debian (e.g. deployments in fall 2010). If the hardware refresh cycle is 5 years, you can always install the latest SLES + SP and be good for 5 years; that's not true of Ubuntu (e.g. deployments that don't fall more or less exactly on an LTS release date). I prefer Debian, but I haven't had to manage 100s or 1000s of installations where my main IT staff only has remote access or tried to completely script a change from oldstable - stable. I'm sure it's possible, but it probably requires more work than just updating the systems within the same release. I'm also not that interested is chipping on an effort to maintain Debian oldstable any longer than it is supported now. For my purposes, the 1 year time frame given to execute an oldstable - stable transition has always been more than enough. I should also note that Debian's support is (usually) for every package in main. This is a much larger selection of software that is in Ubuntu's main+restricted or within the SLE* support matrix. So, there are definitely cases where Debian's support is best-in-class. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/ All fine pointshere you go: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktimqhjdejcy3we-okrqbmclxnyr...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:03:41PM -0400, Matt Harrison wrote: On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote: Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is supported for how long? I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT. Who cares? Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. With Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With SLE* you can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE* timeframe. . . . All fine pointshere you go: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users As regards Debian users, the pros and cons of another distro vis-a-vis their system is legit. As regards Ubuntu users seeking Debian advice, I think they should establish a debuntu-users list. But that is irrelevant to this thread. -- Regards, Freeman Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO (or Linux) is the answer. --Somebody -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405201433.GA11627@Europa.office
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Freeman hew...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:03:41PM -0400, Matt Harrison wrote: On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote: Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is supported for how long? I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT. Who cares? Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. With Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With SLE* you can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE* timeframe. . . . All fine pointshere you go: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users As regards Debian users, the pros and cons of another distro vis-a-vis their system is legit. As regards Ubuntu users seeking Debian advice, I think they should establish a debuntu-users list. But that is irrelevant to this thread. Well, there is no interest in me or the people I provide support for, to move to Ubuntu, although I can see where this conversation would have merit to someone. I received a few responses answering my original question, so thank you for those. Guess the way to go is with upgrading. For all its flaws, one nice thing about Windows is that it has a 10-year (14-year for XP) support cycle, so while there may be service packs, etc., to the end user, the interface is virtually the same for 10 years. I realize that not upgrading/getting more goodies/etc. is not the preference of most people on the list, but for some Debian users it might be. It's an if it ain't broke, don't fix it type thing. Mark
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: 10. Can I install server packages on an Ubuntu Desktop installation and vice versa? Yes – Ubuntu’s flexibility makes it easy. The Ubuntu software repositories do not isolate packages to particular types of deployments. All the server software in the repositories is available to the desktop user, and all the desktop software can also be installed on the server. The difference between desktop and server is that the server kernel config is tailored to servers (CONFIG_DEFAULT_IOSCHED for example) and, since and including 9.10, only has an amd64 version. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTi=hc0w4knmphdnoj8jv_ucfkgg...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. With Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With SLE* you can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE* timeframe. You can get 10 years with RHEL but 7 is standard. The first 4 have full support. The 5th hardware support is lessened. The 6th and 7th there are only updates for important security problems and bugs and there are no more SPs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTicw8hdkx1ozsm1g8z+y+ay7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:37:16PM -0700, Mark wrote: On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Freeman hew...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:03:41PM -0400, Matt Harrison wrote: All fine pointshere you go: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users As regards Debian users, the pros and cons of another distro vis-a-vis their system is legit. As regards Ubuntu users seeking Debian advice, I think they should establish a debuntu-users list. But that is irrelevant to this thread. Well, there is no interest in me or the people I provide support for, to move to Ubuntu, although I can see where this conversation would have merit to someone. I received a few responses answering my original question, so thank you for those. Guess the way to go is with upgrading. For all its flaws, one nice thing about Windows is that it has a 10-year (14-year for XP) support cycle, so while there may be service packs, etc., to the end user, the interface is virtually the same for 10 years. I realize that not upgrading/getting more goodies/etc. is not the preference of most people on the list, but for some Debian users it might be. It's an if it ain't broke, don't fix it type thing. I am feeling your pain. :( After 1.5 testing cycles, I have tried to follow squeeze into stable. But now I am remembering that my testing cycle idea was to have a sort of rolling release. I would put off upgrades of touchy sounding packages until I was sure of negotiating a good outcome. I would store versions with apt-cacher so I wouldn't have to go looking for packages to back out of problems. I wouldn't let myself feel inclined to immediately upgrade everything that presented. But I still hit bumps in the road with my old Radeon and some sound issues. I still found myself under upgrade pressure from the shear number of packages migrating to testing. I still had to analyze dependency knots from being spread all over the release schedule. Now I have sid unstable creeping more and more into my stable system that was only suppose to diversify to the extent of stable-updates, backports, multimedia and a few choice packages. If I stay with squeeze to the bitter end, I will have 5 years. But, 2 of them, I spent more time working on my system than using it. And, in 3 years I am looking at a big upgrade, potentially with issues I have become unfamiliar with, and an undetermined learning period, possibly with a switch away from Gnome. My lack of decision on this is netting me a stable system with increasing amounts of sid and unstable, not to mention a little oldstable. -- Regards, Freeman Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO (or Linux) is the answer. --Somebody -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405235112.GA4802@Europa.office
Re: Ubuntu Versions (was: Re: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)
In BANLkTi=99cw8hdkx1ozsm1g8z+y+ay7...@mail.gmail.com, Tom H wrote: On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. With Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With SLE* you can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE* timeframe. You can get 10 years with RHEL but 7 is standard. The first 4 have full support. The 5th hardware support is lessened. The 6th and 7th there are only updates for important security problems and bugs and there are no more SPs. Ah. That's almost exactly the SLES 10 schedule. Thanks for the info! -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
