Re: Mozilla/Netscape mass bookmark editing (was: More detailed post ...)
Karsten M. Self wrote: ... (Well, when Mozilla gets the ability to edit bookmarks as well as Netscape Communicator 4, then I will upgrade.) Start moving. Does Mozilla now let one edit a bunch of bookmarks without having to close and open the bookmark properties window repeatedly? (In Netscape 4.x (X11/Unix versions only), once the bookmark properties window is open, you can simply click on another bookmark (in the bookmark list window) to apply any edits made to the previous bookmark and to see details of and begin editing the newly clicked-on bookmark. Specifically, you don't have to close the bookmarks properties window and re-open it for each bookmark (as you do in the Windows version).) (Since other comments of mine haven't been read carefully, let me clarify that my question is whether Mozilla is up (or beyond) to Netscape 4's level of efficiency in editing and sorting bookmarks, not necessarily whether it works the same way.) Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mozilla/Netscape mass bookmark editing (was: More detailed post ...)
also sprach Daniel B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.19.1648 +0100]: Does Mozilla now let one edit a bunch of bookmarks without having to close and open the bookmark properties window repeatedly? No, but galeon, which is based on Mozilla, has that feature. Galeon's the better browser anyway, but Mozilla's mail application is still very nice. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: More detailed post ...
on Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 02:38:25PM -0500, Fred Smith ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 02:50, Paul Johnson wrote: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html i hadn't read that, and it brings up a number of points I hadn't considered, but the majority of them are along the lines of elm has a reply-to-list function, so this isn't a problem. however, it is a problem in many (popular) mailers which don't have a reply-to-list function. Further flogging a dead horse: munging reply-to means that if a user *does* explicitly set reply-to (say, so that list mail is copied to both themselves *and* the list), the list's munging of reply-to will break this request. Which addresses precisely the problem that launched this thread. The most pathological response to the reply-to debate I've experienced is LUGoD, the Linux User Group of Davis, for which merely *mentioning* the subject is a bannable offense. This is addressed in the recently added Eminent Domain clause (translation: censorship policy) of LUGoD's mailing list rules: http://www.lugod.org/mailinglists/ Thank Peter Jay Salzman, list administrator, for that little bit of fascism. The *other* response is for users of real MUAs to set their client to ignore the reply-to header, either globally, or when responding to mailing list posts. In mutt, see the 'ignore_list_reply_to' and 'reply_to' options. This is a typical response to abused features -- those with the clue and means to defeat the feature (javascript, popups, flash, banner advertising, reply-to munging) will do so, rendering it largely impotent. Which is yet another argument against reply-to munging: abuse of a feature leads to a reduced usefulness of it in cases in which it actually *does* accomplish something helpful. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? There is no K5 Cabal: http://www.kuro5hin.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
on Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:22:04PM -0500, Daniel Barclay ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I should change mail software just for the Mail-Followup-To: header? I should drop all the positive features of my current mailer (Netscape Communicator 4) just to get automatic Mail-Followup-To: support? Hell, mail-follow-to is the least reason. Other alternatives have so much to offer over NS4 it's not even funny. If you want the bundled approach, go for Mozilla. Or scope out Galeon Phoenix: excellent bookmark support, tabbed browsing, Javascript popup blocking, image blocking, animation blocking, cookie blocking, stability, crash recovery If you want to see some _real_ mailers -- bundling is generally a disadvantage -- you'll find that there are a wide range available most with features far exceeding NS4: Evolution, Sylpheed, KMail. If you prefer text-mode, mutt mh. Get real. Get a clue: http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/NixBrowsers (Well, when Mozilla gets the ability to edit bookmarks as well as Netscape Communicator 4, then I will upgrade.) Start moving. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? At the sound of the toner, boycott Lexmark: trade restraint via DMCA. http://news.com.com/2100-1023-979791.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: kmail vs. mutt (was: More detailed post ...)
On Monday 10 February 2003 16:28, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 10:29:35AM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: since when is kmail a frontend to mutt? It makes the claim that it is. I cannot imagine why it should, KMail has never been, and most probably never will be a frontend to mutt, so... Cheers, Yven -- Yven Johannes Leist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.leist.beldesign.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Monday 10 February 2003 10:28, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.0354 +0100]: Nobody said to drop features. You are adding. We are not even going to start to compare Netscape to mutt! Geez. Pay attention. You suggested that I use mutt. How would that _not_ drop whatever features my current (non-mutt) MUA has? (In general, the suggestion use modern mailer isn't all that helpful when the members of that set aren't full replacements for currently used software.) I am tired of this thread! Think for yourself and don't reply: what feature does netscape have that mutt doesn't? and if it's the GUI, then look at evolution, sylpheed, or mulberry! You've obviously never had to abandon a program you used for a very long time and that you've taken a strong liking to for whatever reasons, or your mentality is quite different from mine. I quite often find even simple upgrades from one major version to the other annoying because things I got used to have changed and I have to adapt to them. Note that I do not think that my mailer doesn't support it so I do not have to go to the trouble of changing the recipients by hand is a good argument and Daniel obviously realized that, but just saying hey, it's old anyway so just switch to something newer seems at least slightly out of touch with reality to me... Cheers, Yven -- Yven Johannes Leist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.leist.beldesign.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 12:17:25PM +0100, Yven Johannes Leist wrote: On Monday 10 February 2003 10:28, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.0354 +0100]: Nobody said to drop features. You are adding. We are not even going to start to compare Netscape to mutt! Geez. Pay attention. You suggested that I use mutt. How would that _not_ drop whatever features my current (non-mutt) MUA has? (In general, the suggestion use modern mailer isn't all that helpful when the members of that set aren't full replacements for currently used software.) I am tired of this thread! Think for yourself and don't reply: what feature does netscape have that mutt doesn't? and if it's the GUI, then look at evolution, sylpheed, or mulberry! You've obviously never had to abandon a program you used for a very long time and that you've taken a strong liking to for whatever reasons, or your mentality is quite different from mine. I quite often find even simple upgrades from one major version to the other annoying because things I got used to have changed and I have to adapt to them. Note that I do not think that my mailer doesn't support it so I do not have to go to the trouble of changing the recipients by hand is a good argument and Daniel obviously realized that, but just saying hey, it's old anyway so just switch to something newer seems at least slightly out of touch with reality to me... Sometimes change is good. I was quite proficient with DOS (Dr-DOS/Novell DOS + 4dos, Win 3.11) but made the switch to linux. Why? Because it was better. It was 1994 so I installed Slackware. Later, I moved to Debian? Why? Because it was better. Ever since I encountered pine at college (on SCO; yuck) I used that as my email client. However, in 1998 I switched to mutt. Was it easy? No. Am I glad I did it? Yes! (because ... it was better :-) Rejecting change simply because it causes some pain is short sighted. I could go on and on, using examples like network protocols, but I think you get the point. -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I must despise the world which does not know that music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. -- Ludwig van Beethoven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Tuesday 11 February 2003 15:16, Nathan E Norman wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 12:17:25PM +0100, Yven Johannes Leist wrote: [...] old anyway so just switch to something newer seems at least slightly out of touch with reality to me... Sometimes change is good. I was quite proficient with DOS (Dr-DOS/Novell DOS + 4dos, Win 3.11) but made the switch to linux. Why? Because it was better. It was 1994 so I installed Slackware. Later, I moved to Debian? Why? Because it was better. Ever since I encountered pine at college (on SCO; yuck) I used that as my email client. However, in 1998 I switched to mutt. Was it easy? No. Am I glad I did it? Yes! (because ... it was better :-) Rejecting change simply because it causes some pain is short sighted. Fully agreed, I'd never recommend anyone to stay with NS4 for the rest of his life, I merely took exception to the lack of compassion, especially when recommending a terminal-based client, which causes _heaps_ of pain ;) Cheers, Yven -- Yven Johannes Leist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.leist.beldesign.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 03:58:43PM -0500, jereme wrote: Hi Pigeon, [snips:] Pigeon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 10:19:16PM -0500, jereme wrote: That is like telling me to build a fence so your dog doesn't crap on my lawn... If your dog crapped on my lawn, I'd rather build a fence than bitch at you about it. In fact, that would stop everybody's dog crapping on my lawn, and achieve that without the need to bitch at anybody. (Aargh, just noticed, dog, bitch, that was unintentional.) I liked the pun :) ...but my point was simply this, when the OP was chastised for the duplicate mails he produced, his suggestion was that people who didn't want the dupes should filter them on their end, rather than he himself going to the trouble of not produce them in the first place. I think it is a simple question of responsibility. Yes any competent user could filter locally but why not just not produce them in the first place? Perhaps I am missing something? I am always open to reevaluation. Well, I think there is validity on both sides. List etiquette varies - I am on another list where CCing and top-posting are both common, so I have to deal with both conventions. I prefer the debian-user style, but nevertheless have to build my own fence since it would be pointless to rant about CCing on a list where everyone accepts it. Your point holds more strongly in the case of people who are only on debian-user-style lists. At the end of the day, I'm not really too bothered one way or the other... it's not half such a downer as the 100k spams containing Microsoft viruses that make it onto the list and eat dialup bandwidth! Pigeon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Hi, * Fred Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-02-10 08:13]: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 01:46, Thorsten Haude wrote: I'm not intimate with the datails of Netscape's usage; you arbitrary send the mail to two addresses where one is enough to do the work. Please explain where the value is in sending the mail twice. i think a bigger problem is that mail from lists.debian.org does not use the standard convention of setting the reply-to: header to the list's post address. This is usually considered a feature, not a bug: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Thorsten -- There's no such thing as a stupid question. Only stupid people. - User Friendly msg29845/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 02:13:23AM -0500, Fred Smith wrote: i think a bigger problem is that mail from lists.debian.org does not use the standard convention of setting the reply-to: header to the list's post address. This isn't standard, nor is it a good idea. (Yahoo Groups is the only place I know of that still uses it). http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Instead of breaking the list, you should either switch to a mailer that supports replying to mailing lists, or bitch at your current vendor to fix it. Mailing lists have been around for, what, 30+ years now? Missing a reply-to-list function should definately be considered a bug by now. Treat it as such. mutt does this, netscape/mozilla does this and evolution does this. Mutt does not do this. the kind people at ximian were good enough to add a reply to list function to evolution to get around _broken_ mailing list software (like whatever is running lists.debian.org) but this is not standard. The mailing list is not broken. Ximian Evolution handles mailing lists correctly, kudos to Ximian for implimenting the bloody obvious. if you are going to be complaining to anyone, you should complain to whomever runs lists.debian.org, not to the people who accidentially (or unknowingly) send a reply to all whenever they post to this list. No. The list is behaving properly. Deal. -- .''`. Baloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system msg29847/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
* Fred Smith ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030209 23:41]: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 01:46, Thorsten Haude wrote: I'm not intimate with the datails of Netscape's usage; you arbitrary send the mail to two addresses where one is enough to do the work. Please explain where the value is in sending the mail twice. Well? You've quoted the question, but haven't made any attempt to answer it. i think a bigger problem is that mail from lists.debian.org does not use the standard convention of setting the reply-to: header to the list's post address. In most email software this results in 2 methods of replying to a message: 1) reply, which goes only to the person who wrote the original post 2) reply to all, which sends a message to both the list address and to the original poster. Wrong! wrong! wrong! This is an old, tired flamewar. The Debian lists are done Right. Do your homework[1] before regurgitating the losing end of this old debate for us again. if you are going to be complaining to anyone, you should complain to whomever runs lists.debian.org, not to the people who accidentially (or unknowingly) send a reply to all whenever they post to this list. No, it's entirely fair to complain to people who do the wrong thing. (I only wish that such complaints were done off-list, rather than complaining to the people who do the wrong thing _and_ every other list subscriber. I firmly believe that one person getting an annoying duplicate is much less terrible than _everyone_ getting this old, tired flamewar every 6 days.) In theory, everyone on the list should have read the list rules before subscribing. Also, anyone who doesn't agree with them and/or chooses to ignore them is free to unsubscribe. good times, Vineet [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=reply+mungingbtnI=I -- http://www.doorstop.net/ -- One nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty, and justice for all. msg29849/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
Hi, * Fred Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030210 16:41]: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 01:46, Thorsten Haude wrote: I'm not intimate with the datails of Netscape's usage; you arbitrary send the mail to two addresses where one is enough to do the work. Please explain where the value is in sending the mail twice. i think a bigger problem is that mail from lists.debian.org does not use the standard convention of setting the reply-to: header to the list's post address. In most email software this results in 2 methods of replying to a message: 1) reply, which goes only to the person who wrote the original post 2) reply to all, which sends a message to both the list address and to the original poster. mutt does this, snip Woow, slow down there. I don't really wish to participate in a MUA pissing contest, but mutt has a list-reply (default key binding L) function. netscape/mozilla does this and evolution does this. the kind people at ximian were good enough to add a reply to list function to evolution to get around _broken_ mailing list software (like whatever is running lists.debian.org) but this is not standard. Hmm, for the list software/configuration to be broken it must be behaving in a manner different to a well defined standard. I must plead ignorance in this matter; what standards exist for list server behaviour? if you are going to be complaining to anyone, you should complain to whomever runs lists.debian.org, not to the people who accidentially (or unknowingly) send a reply to all whenever they post to this list. Sure we all sometimes (at least I do) screw up and CC the poster when we shouldn't or, reply off instead of onlist but this occurs only occasionally. If the majority of us can follow the protocol, why should lists.debian.org change their setup because a few people are lazy with their email? Nick. -- Debian testing/unstable Linux onefish 2.4.20-lavienx #1 Mon Jan 6 17:03:01 JST 2003 i686 unknown unknown GNU/Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Vineet Kumar wrote: * Fred Smith ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030209 23:41]: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 01:46, Thorsten Haude wrote: I'm not intimate with the datails of Netscape's usage; you arbitrary send the mail to two addresses where one is enough to do the work. Please explain where the value is in sending the mail twice. Well? You've quoted the question, but haven't made any attempt to answer it. i think a bigger problem is that mail from lists.debian.org does not use the standard convention of setting the reply-to: header to the list's post address. In most email software this results in 2 methods of replying to a message: 1) reply, which goes only to the person who wrote the original post 2) reply to all, which sends a message to both the list address and to the original poster. This is the behaviour of mozilla. It should have a button that does reply-to-list without doing a reply-to-sender, or everyone will get double messages. Does any other mailer fix that? Wrong! wrong! wrong! This is an old, tired flamewar. The Debian lists are done Right. Do your homework[1] before regurgitating the losing end of this old debate for us again. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Nick Hastings wrote: * Fred Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030210 16:41]: snip netscape/mozilla does this and evolution does this. the kind people at ximian were good enough to add a reply to list function to evolution to get around _broken_ mailing list software (like whatever is running lists.debian.org) but this is not standard. Hmm, for the list software/configuration to be broken it must be behaving in a manner different to a well defined standard. I must plead ignorance in this matter; what standards exist for list server behaviour? My (admittedly poor) understanding from the Mutt and/or Exim list(s) is that here is no Standard but there is a growing consensus that the use of the Mail-Followup-To: header is the better solution. Again, my understanding is that this header should be provided by the poster's MUA as appropriate to the list(s) being posted to. The Apache users list adds a reply-to header, leading to double postings where the OP has set the same header. On the Exim, Mutt, and Debian lists, it appears that no reply-to: headers are added by the mail-list and that MUAs are expected to do the Right Thing(tm). The Mail-Followup-To: header is most often set by Mutt users. Where MUAs do not have a List Reply function, it is up to the user to be polite, and make the necessary edits when replying. if you are going to be complaining to anyone, you should complain to whomever runs lists.debian.org, not to the people who accidentially (or unknowingly) send a reply to all whenever they post to this list. As others have said, the list does it right. It is up to those without properly functioning MUAs (including myself) to adhere to best practice. Sure we all sometimes (at least I do) screw up and CC the poster when we shouldn't or, reply off instead of onlist but this occurs only occasionally. If the majority of us can follow the protocol, why should lists.debian.org change their setup because a few people are lazy with their email? True, true. -- gt [EMAIL PROTECTED] If someone tells you--- I have a sense of humor, but that's not funny. ---they don't. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
also sprach Fred Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.0813 +0100]: if you are going to be complaining to anyone, you should complain to whomever runs lists.debian.org, not to the people who accidentially (or unknowingly) send a reply to all whenever they post to this list. noo! http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29858/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
OT: kmail vs. mutt (was: More detailed post ...)
also sprach Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.0512 +0100]: Mutt, and it's KDE frontend kmail, are *far* more featureful and far faster than Netscape is. Trust us on this and give it a try before you knock it. since when is kmail a frontend to mutt? -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29859/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.0347 +0100]: You can easily do that on the client side with procmail and the References: header. Is there any chance that elimination of duplicate messages can be done (relatively easily) with procmail? yes: man procmailex. it doesn't work that well though because procmail can only delete the duplicate. however, the list mail usually takes a tad longer than the direct mail, so it will be deleted and the direct mail delivered. i want it exactly the other way around! -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29860/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.0354 +0100]: Nobody said to drop features. You are adding. We are not even going to start to compare Netscape to mutt! Geez. Pay attention. You suggested that I use mutt. How would that _not_ drop whatever features my current (non-mutt) MUA has? (In general, the suggestion use modern mailer isn't all that helpful when the members of that set aren't full replacements for currently used software.) I am tired of this thread! Think for yourself and don't reply: what feature does netscape have that mutt doesn't? and if it's the GUI, then look at evolution, sylpheed, or mulberry! -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29861/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 07:51:27PM +1100, Russell wrote: This is the behaviour of mozilla. It should have a button that does reply-to-list without doing a reply-to-sender, or everyone will get double messages. Does any other mailer fix that? Mutt, kmail, ximian evolution, likely more. -- .''`. Baloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system msg29910/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: kmail vs. mutt (was: More detailed post ...)
On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 10:29:35AM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: since when is kmail a frontend to mutt? It makes the claim that it is. The functionality is remarkably similar, reminds me of mutt done topheavy or Outlook if it weren't designed by idiots. -- .''`. Baloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system msg29911/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: kmail vs. mutt (was: More detailed post ...)
also sprach Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.1628 +0100]: It makes the claim that it is. The functionality is remarkably similar, reminds me of mutt done topheavy or Outlook if it weren't designed by idiots. As of version 3 I take it? Because 2.2.2 is definitely no mutt frontend... -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29927/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 02:50, Paul Johnson wrote: This isn't standard, nor is it a good idea. (Yahoo Groups is the only place I know of that still uses it). mailman and ezmlm both do this. i'm not sure if it is the default, or it is just the case on the mailing lists that i'm subscribed to. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html i hadn't read that, and it brings up a number of points I hadn't considered, but the majority of them are along the lines of elm has a reply-to-list function, so this isn't a problem. however, it is a problem in many (popular) mailers which don't have a reply-to-list function. Instead of breaking the list, you should either switch to a mailer that supports replying to mailing lists, or bitch at your current vendor to fix it. Mailing lists have been around for, what, 30+ years now? Missing a reply-to-list function should definately be considered a bug by now. Treat it as such. my mailer has a reply-to-list function, so i don't need to complain to my vendor. someone should complain to mozilla, netscape and microsoft though, since their mail software doesn't support this function. mutt does this, netscape/mozilla does this and evolution does this. Mutt does not do this. mutt apparently has a reply-to-list function that i was unaware of. (g, instead of r) if you are going to be complaining to anyone, you should complain to whomever runs lists.debian.org, not to the people who accidentially (or unknowingly) send a reply to all whenever they post to this list. No. The list is behaving properly. Deal. i'm fine with that, but i don't see a point in berating people whose mailers make it difficult to reply to the list. i'm sorry if i've upset some people with my suggestions, i was unaware that this had previously been discussed. -Fred -- Fred Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dividedsky.net/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 10:19:16PM -0500, jereme wrote: That is like telling me to build a fence so your dog doesn't crap on my lawn... If your dog crapped on my lawn, I'd rather build a fence than bitch at you about it. In fact, that would stop everybody's dog crapping on my lawn, and achieve that without the need to bitch at anybody. (Aargh, just noticed, dog, bitch, that was unintentional.) I don't want to join a flamewar about whether or not the list should include reply-to headers; I just insert them automatically at my end! Pigeon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
* Fred Smith ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030210 12:14]: mutt apparently has a reply-to-list function that i was unaware of. (g, instead of r) Actually mutt has 3 reply functions: reply reply to a message group-reply reply to all recipients list-reply reply to specified mailing list The most useful one for mailing lists is list-reply, bound by default to 'L'. This action responds to the mailing list, and additionally to the author in the case that a personal reply has been requested via Mail-Followup-To:. good times, Vineet -- http://www.doorstop.net/ -- Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. -- E.W. Dijkstra msg29957/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Thorsten Haude wrote: ... I'm not intimate with the datails of Netscape's usage; you arbitrary send the mail to two addresses where one is enough to do the work. Please explain where the value is in sending the mail twice. I didn't claim there's any value in sending the message twice. I was just countering your (apparent) claim that I was manually adding CC: entries. I was not doing that. I was doing enough to do the work (using Reply All instead of Reply to get replies back to the list. I just wasn't manually _deleting_ the author's e-mail address. In any case now I am deleting the author's e-mail address from the To:/Cc: list (unless I forget). Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Hi Pigeon, [snips:] Pigeon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 10:19:16PM -0500, jereme wrote: That is like telling me to build a fence so your dog doesn't crap on my lawn... If your dog crapped on my lawn, I'd rather build a fence than bitch at you about it. In fact, that would stop everybody's dog crapping on my lawn, and achieve that without the need to bitch at anybody. (Aargh, just noticed, dog, bitch, that was unintentional.) I liked the pun :) ...but my point was simply this, when the OP was chastised for the duplicate mails he produced, his suggestion was that people who didn't want the dupes should filter them on their end, rather than he himself going to the trouble of not produce them in the first place. I think it is a simple question of responsibility. Yes any competent user could filter locally but why not just not produce them in the first place? Perhaps I am missing something? I am always open to reevaluation. -jereme -- +--+ Jereme Corrado [EMAIL PROTECTED] System Administrator Restorative Management Corp. gpg: 1024D/9C39E1F0 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Paul Johnson wrote: On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 09:54:40PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: How would that _not_ drop whatever features my current (non-mutt) MUA has? Mutt, and it's KDE frontend kmail, are *far* more featureful and far faster than Netscape is. Trust us on this and give it a try before you knock it. I don't think you heard the same thing I said. I'm NOT arguing that Netscape is better that your suggested MUAs. I'm simply saying that switching from one mailer to another, in addition to adding whatever features the new one has that the old one doesn't have, also drops whatever features the old one had that the new one doesn't also have. That was in answer your someone's (your?) question about why I was mentioning dropping features. That's almost a tautology, so I didn't expect much argument there. True, sometimes the dropped features set is a small set, but it's not usually an empty set. At a higher level, people can't just switch mailers to get new features; newer mailers don't always cover old-mailer features people use (even if the new mailer is better overall). And when they can switch, there may be more pressing needs (such as figuring out which kernel version minimizes the risk of IDE disk corruption). Netscape is not a full replacement for any other mailer. I never said it was. I said (in other words) that for most values of X and Y in the set of MUAs, X is not a _full_ replacement for Y. Anyway, I'll try to avoid contributing too much more to this runaway thread. Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Paul Johnson wrote: ... There's positive features to NS4 mail? Were you trying to have a real discussion or not? If not, never mind. If so, see my other reply about what I meant about adding/dropping features. Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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also sprach Fred Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.2038 +0100]: mailman and ezmlm both do this. i'm not sure if it is the default, or it is just the case on the mailing lists that i'm subscribed to. it's not the default on either. and both strongly suggest not to do it. mutt apparently has a reply-to-list function that i was unaware of. (g, instead of r) nope, L instead of g (reply to all) or r (reply) -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29966/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.10.2210 +0100]: In any case now I am deleting the author's e-mail address from the To:/Cc: list (unless I forget). Thanks. Now do yourself the favour and look at mutt! -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29967/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 02:38:25PM -0500, Fred Smith wrote: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 02:50, Paul Johnson wrote: This isn't standard, nor is it a good idea. (Yahoo Groups is the only place I know of that still uses it). mailman and ezmlm both do this. i'm not sure if it is the default, or it is just the case on the mailing lists that i'm subscribed to. No clue on ezmlm, but Mailman does not set Reply-To: by default. (My first exposure to this issue was, in fact, a debate on the Mailman-Users list started by a suggestion that this default be changed.) i hadn't read that, and it brings up a number of points I hadn't considered, but the majority of them are along the lines of elm has a reply-to-list function, so this isn't a problem. however, it is a problem in many (popular) mailers which don't have a reply-to-list function. My primary argument against setting Reply-To: for list mail has nothing to do with whether MUAs have reply-to-list functions or not: Accidentally sending a private reply to the list will be harmful (both in terms of resource consumption and potential embarrassment) far more frequently than accidentally sending a list reply privately. The default behaviour should, therefore, be to reply privately, so as to minimize the damage caused by errors. -- The freedoms that we enjoy presently are the most important victories of the White Hats over the past several millennia, and it is vitally important that we don't give them up now, only because we are frightened. - Eolake Stobblehouse (http://stobblehouse.com/text/battle.html) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Hi, * Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-02-10 22:10]: In any case now I am deleting the author's e-mail address from the To:/Cc: list (unless I forget). Thanks. I have rarely a problem with things happening accidently on mailing lists, so this is fine by me. Thorsten -- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. - Thomas Jefferson msg29980/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 02:38:25PM -0500, Fred Smith wrote: On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 02:50, Paul Johnson wrote: This isn't standard, nor is it a good idea. (Yahoo Groups is the only place I know of that still uses it). mailman and ezmlm both do this. i'm not sure if it is the default, or it is just the case on the mailing lists that i'm subscribed to. It's just the case on the groups you subscribe to. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html i hadn't read that, and it brings up a number of points I hadn't considered, but the majority of them are along the lines of elm has a reply-to-list function, so this isn't a problem. however, it is a problem in many (popular) mailers which don't have a reply-to-list function. Then many popular mailers are broken and should be fixed. Sadly, many popular mailers are not open source and thus this step is much more difficilt than it should be. Instead of breaking the list, you should either switch to a mailer that supports replying to mailing lists, or bitch at your current vendor to fix it. Mailing lists have been around for, what, 30+ years now? Missing a reply-to-list function should definately be considered a bug by now. Treat it as such. my mailer has a reply-to-list function, so i don't need to complain to my vendor. someone should complain to mozilla, netscape and microsoft though, since their mail software doesn't support this function. See above. mutt does this, netscape/mozilla does this and evolution does this. Mutt does not do this. mutt apparently has a reply-to-list function that i was unaware of. (g, instead of r) Check out 'L' if you are going to be complaining to anyone, you should complain to whomever runs lists.debian.org, not to the people who accidentially (or unknowingly) send a reply to all whenever they post to this list. No. The list is behaving properly. Deal. i'm fine with that, but i don't see a point in berating people whose mailers make it difficult to reply to the list. All debian lists have a code of conduct which among other things discourages Cc:s unless they are explicitly requested. I'd be a lot happier if more mailing lists made this request. It's too bad subscribers aren't forced to acknowledge that they have read and agree to abide by the code. -- Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -- Napoleon Bonaparte -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Hi, On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 22:09, Sean Burlington wrote: * When replying to messages on the mailing list, do not send a carbon copy (CC) to the original poster unless they explicitly request to be copied. This is one of the things mutt is very good at (unfortunately I haven't found a gui mail client that makes it easy to avoid cc'ing people on lists.) Evolution. Right-click the mail you're answering to in the overview, and it gives you the options Reply to [sender|list|all]. I wish it had a big button for list. Bye, Ratti -- fontlinge Fontmanagement for Linux http://www.gesindel.deSchriftenverwaltung fuer Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 06:43:06PM +, Colin Watson wrote: On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 01:34:29PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: martin f krafft wrote: ... Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! How are others supposed to know which lists you read (vs. which you have just posted to)? (I think your wording probably doesn't say what you mean.) You could always follow his Mail-Followup-To: header, which is designed for exactly this purpose: Mail-Followup-To: Debian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Also, the Debian mailing list policy is NO CC's unless specifically asked for. I think it's fair to assume that a poster has either subscribed or is reading the archive, particularily if they haven't indicated either way ;) -- Rob Weir [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ertius.org/ msg29653/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Thorsten Haude wrote: ... However, I think the better approach is to lean back a moment and think about it: Why would anyone want to have the reply twice? Well, someone could want list messages that are replies to them to show up in the their regular mailbox so they notice them quickly, and also want all list messages to show up in a mailbox thatis specific to the mailing list. (By the way, where is that message header defined? I just searched through all the IETF RfCs but couldn't find it.) Whatever the RFCs say, ... Wait a minute. You can't just start demanding arbitrary behavior of other people. Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Martin, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.08.1934 +0100]: Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! ... (I think your wording probably doesn't say what you mean.) How would you say it? Don't modify lists with that I read. I think you meant something like: ...to lists, which I read. or ...to lists; I read them. Actually, that's what I was originally commenting on--wording that didn't say what you meant, and told the reader to determine which lists you read and which lists you didn't read. Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Colin Watson wrote: On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 03:46:53PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: Colin Watson wrote: ... follow his Mail-Followup-To: ... But how would you propose I do that? Do a View Source on every message? Use a mailer that supports it automatically, like mutt or (I believe) modern gnus? I should change mail software just for the Mail-Followup-To: header? I should drop all the positive features of my current mailer (Netscape Communicator 4) just to get automatic Mail-Followup-To: support? Get real. (Well, when Mozilla gets the ability to edit bookmarks as well as Netscape Communicator 4, then I will upgrade.) It's not an officially standardized header, ... Also, see http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/, Code of conduct: the default on Debian mailing lists is stated there as not to copy the original poster. So Debian ~standardized on a pattern that can't be handled by standard Reply vs. Reply-to-All functions? Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Hi, * Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-02-09 19:02]: Thorsten Haude wrote: However, I think the better approach is to lean back a moment and think about it: Why would anyone want to have the reply twice? Well, someone could want list messages that are replies to them to show up in the their regular mailbox so they notice them quickly, and also want all list messages to show up in a mailbox thatis specific to the mailing list. There could be all kind of motives to copy things. I often copy files and even mails, but I don't expect anyone to take care of it for me. (By the way, where is that message header defined? I just searched through all the IETF RfCs but couldn't find it.) Whatever the RFCs say, ... Wait a minute. You can't just start demanding arbitrary behavior of other people. But I don't. If you want to call it 'demand', I demand that you *avoid* arbitrary behavior by adding addresses to your mails. In this case, you know fucking well that I don't want each mail twice, so I figure that you must be trolling. Go away. Thorsten -- Try not to be a man of success but rather of value. - Albert Einstein msg29714/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:22:04PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: Colin Watson wrote: On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 03:46:53PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: But how would you propose I do that? Do a View Source on every message? Use a mailer that supports it automatically, like mutt or (I believe) modern gnus? I should change mail software just for the Mail-Followup-To: header? I don't actually care all that much what you do, to be honest: I have far too many other things to care about. You did ask, though. I'd be happy for you to default to not cc'ing people on Debian lists unless explicitly requested, as you did with the message I'm replying to. Also, see http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/, Code of conduct: the default on Debian mailing lists is stated there as not to copy the original poster. So Debian ~standardized on a pattern that can't be handled by standard Reply vs. Reply-to-All functions? Please go and read the many, many rants that have been written on this subject. Google will find them easily. I'm not going to regurgitate them here, beyond saying that reply/reply-to-all has turned out not to a sufficiently rich model for mailing lists. The solutions people advocate for fixing this vary. Regards, -- Colin Watson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
on Sun, 09 Feb 2003 01:02:46PM -0500, Daniel Barclay insinuated: Thorsten Haude wrote: ... However, I think the better approach is to lean back a moment and think about it: Why would anyone want to have the reply twice? Well, someone could want list messages that are replies to them to show up in the their regular mailbox so they notice them quickly, and also want all list messages to show up in a mailbox thatis specific to the mailing list. then that person shouldn't set the Mailto-Followup header! /nori -- .~. nori @ sccs.swarthmore.edu /V\ http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~nori/jnl/ // \\ @ maenad.net /( )\ www.maenad.net ^`~'^ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.09.1902 +0100]: Well, someone could want list messages that are replies to them to show up in the their regular mailbox so they notice them quickly, and also want all list messages to show up in a mailbox thatis specific to the mailing list. You can easily do that on the client side with procmail and the References: header. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29728/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.08.2146 +0100]: Mail-Followup-To: Debian [EMAIL PROTECTED] But how would you propose I do that? Do a View Source on every message? How about a decent MUA that can do it automatically, like mutt (www.mutt.org)? (By the way, where is that message header defined? I just searched through all the IETF RfCs but couldn't find it.) I don't think it's in an RfC yet. Many MUAs support it though. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29730/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.09.1922 +0100]: I should change mail software just for the Mail-Followup-To: header? I should drop all the positive features of my current mailer (Netscape Communicator 4) just to get automatic Mail-Followup-To: support? Nobody said to drop features. You are adding. We are not even going to start to compare Netscape to mutt! (Well, when Mozilla gets the ability to edit bookmarks as well as Netscape Communicator 4, then I will upgrade.) It already has that feature. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29731/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.09.1912 +0100]: ...to lists; I read them. This is a lot better. Thanks. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists; I read them. .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29732/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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also sprach Nori Heikkinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.09.1955 +0100]: then that person shouldn't set the Mailto-Followup header! actually, yes s/he should, just differently... ;^ http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29744/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
on Sun, 09 Feb 2003 10:17:57PM +0100, martin f krafft insinuated: also sprach Nori Heikkinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.09.1955 +0100]: then that person shouldn't set the Mailto-Followup header! actually, yes s/he should, just differently... ;^ http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html fine, you win. but that person would have the *option* of not setting the header to elicit the same effect from MUAs that do comply with the Mailto-Followup header, right? /nori -- .~. nori @ sccs.swarthmore.edu /V\ http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~nori/jnl/ // \\ @ maenad.net /( )\ www.maenad.net ^`~'^ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
also sprach Nori Heikkinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.09.2242 +0100]: fine, you win. but that person would have the *option* of not setting the header to elicit the same effect from MUAs that do comply with the Mailto-Followup header, right? yes. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29752/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
Thorsten Haude wrote: ... But I don't. If you want to call it 'demand', I demand that you *avoid* arbitrary behavior by adding addresses to your mails. What arbitrary behavior are you talking about? I'm not arbitrarily adding any addresses. If I use Netscape Communicator's Reply function (which I think implements the standard Reply-to-author function), it only goes to the author and doesn't get back to the mailing list. So instead I use its Reply All function (which I think implements the standard Reply-to-all function) to get the reply back to the list. I'll try to delete the non-list addresses, but how the hell is what I've been doing arbitrary behavior? Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] More detailed post ...
Nori Heikkinen wrote: on Sun, 09 Feb 2003 01:02:46PM -0500, Daniel Barclay insinuated: Thorsten Haude wrote: ... However, I think the better approach is to lean back a moment and think about it: Why would anyone want to have the reply twice? Well, someone could want list messages that are replies to them to show up in the their regular mailbox so they notice them quickly, and also want all list messages to show up in a mailbox thatis specific to the mailing list. then that person shouldn't set the Mailto-Followup header! So? I was replying to his implication that sitting back and thinking about it could yield only his implied conclusion. Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.09.1902 +0100]: Well, someone could want list messages that are replies to them to show up in the their regular mailbox so they notice them quickly, and also want all list messages to show up in a mailbox thatis specific to the mailing list. You can easily do that on the client side with procmail and the References: header. Is there any chance that elimination of duplicate messages can be done (relatively easily) with procmail? Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.09.1922 +0100]: I should change mail software just for the Mail-Followup-To: header? I should drop all the positive features of my current mailer (Netscape Communicator 4) just to get automatic Mail-Followup-To: support? Nobody said to drop features. You are adding. We are not even going to start to compare Netscape to mutt! Geez. Pay attention. You suggested that I use mutt. How would that _not_ drop whatever features my current (non-mutt) MUA has? (In general, the suggestion use modern mailer isn't all that helpful when the members of that set aren't full replacements for currently used software.) Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:02:46PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: (By the way, where is that message header defined? I just searched through all the IETF RfCs but couldn't find it.) Whatever the RFCs say, ... Wait a minute. You can't just start demanding arbitrary behavior of other people. So why are you trying to? RFCs reflect common practice. -- .''`. Baloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system msg29808/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there any chance that elimination of duplicate messages can be done (relatively easily) with procmail? It hardly seams reasonable to ask others to filter on their end. That is like telling me to build a fence so your dog doesn't crap on my lawn... Martin's request seems simple enough to me. -- +--+ Jereme Corrado [EMAIL PROTECTED] System Administrator Restorative Management Corp. gpg: 1024D/9C39E1F0 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:22:04PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: I should change mail software just for the Mail-Followup-To: header? I should drop all the positive features of my current mailer (Netscape Communicator 4) just to get automatic Mail-Followup-To: support? There's positive features to NS4 mail? Get real. (Well, when Mozilla gets the ability to edit bookmarks as well as Netscape Communicator 4, then I will upgrade.) It does. Might also go look into kmail... -- .''`. Baloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system msg29821/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: More detailed post ...
On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 09:54:40PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: How would that _not_ drop whatever features my current (non-mutt) MUA has? Mutt, and it's KDE frontend kmail, are *far* more featureful and far faster than Netscape is. Trust us on this and give it a try before you knock it. (In general, the suggestion use modern mailer isn't all that helpful when the members of that set aren't full replacements for currently used software.) You've got it backwards. Netscape is not a full replacement for any other mailer. It's underfeatured. -- .''`. Baloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system msg29824/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 09:47:50PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: Is there any chance that elimination of duplicate messages can be done (relatively easily) with procmail? This is covered in procmailex(5). -- .''`. Baloo [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian admin and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than to fix a system msg29826/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Hi, * Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-02-10 03:44]: If I use Netscape Communicator's Reply function (which I think implements the standard Reply-to-author function), it only goes to the author and doesn't get back to the mailing list. So instead I use its Reply All function (which I think implements the standard Reply-to-all function) to get the reply back to the list. I'll try to delete the non-list addresses, but how the hell is what I've been doing arbitrary behavior? I'm not intimate with the datails of Netscape's usage; you arbitrary send the mail to two addresses where one is enough to do the work. Please explain where the value is in sending the mail twice. Thorsten -- Das Briefgeheimnis sowie das Post- und Fernmeldegeheimnis sind unverletzlich. - Grundgesetz, Artikel 10, Abs. 1 msg29840/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Hi, * Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-02-10 03:47]: Is there any chance that elimination of duplicate messages can be done (relatively easily) with procmail? Procmail can even delete spam; that's no reason to send some. Thorsten -- The best leaders are those barely known to their followers; after them, those they love; after them, those they fear; after them, those they despise. - Lao Tzu msg29841/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 01:46, Thorsten Haude wrote: I'm not intimate with the datails of Netscape's usage; you arbitrary send the mail to two addresses where one is enough to do the work. Please explain where the value is in sending the mail twice. i think a bigger problem is that mail from lists.debian.org does not use the standard convention of setting the reply-to: header to the list's post address. In most email software this results in 2 methods of replying to a message: 1) reply, which goes only to the person who wrote the original post 2) reply to all, which sends a message to both the list address and to the original poster. mutt does this, netscape/mozilla does this and evolution does this. the kind people at ximian were good enough to add a reply to list function to evolution to get around _broken_ mailing list software (like whatever is running lists.debian.org) but this is not standard. if you are going to be complaining to anyone, you should complain to whomever runs lists.debian.org, not to the people who accidentially (or unknowingly) send a reply to all whenever they post to this list. -Fred -- Fred Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dividedsky.net/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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martin f krafft wrote: ... Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! How are others supposed to know which lists you read (vs. which you have just posted to)? (I think your wording probably doesn't say what you mean.) Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 01:34:29PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: martin f krafft wrote: ... Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! How are others supposed to know which lists you read (vs. which you have just posted to)? (I think your wording probably doesn't say what you mean.) You could always follow his Mail-Followup-To: header, which is designed for exactly this purpose: Mail-Followup-To: Debian [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Colin Watson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: More detailed post ...
Colin Watson wrote: ... You could always follow his Mail-Followup-To: header, which is designed for exactly this purpose: Mail-Followup-To: Debian [EMAIL PROTECTED] But how would you propose I do that? Do a View Source on every message? (By the way, where is that message header defined? I just searched through all the IETF RfCs but couldn't find it.) Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Daniel Barclay wrote: martin f krafft wrote: ... Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! How are others supposed to know which lists you read (vs. which you have just posted to)? http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ Code of conduct When using the Debian mailing lists, please follow these rules: . * When replying to messages on the mailing list, do not send a carbon copy (CC) to the original poster unless they explicitly request to be copied. This is one of the things mutt is very good at (unfortunately I haven't found a gui mail client that makes it easy to avoid cc'ing people on lists.) -- Sean -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Hi, * Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-02-08 21:46]: Colin Watson wrote: ... You could always follow his Mail-Followup-To: header, which is designed for exactly this purpose: Mail-Followup-To: Debian [EMAIL PROTECTED] But how would you propose I do that? Do a View Source on every message? Yes, if your MUA forces you to do so. However, I think the better approach is to lean back a moment and think about it: Why would anyone want to have the reply twice? Is there any technical reason why you would receive one mail but not the other? (By the way, where is that message header defined? I just searched through all the IETF RfCs but couldn't find it.) Whatever the RFCs say, I think the motivation is clear: Don't send the mail twice. It is highly unlikely that anyone would post on a list but not be able to read it, so one reply is enough. Thorsten -- It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein msg29489/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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also sprach Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.08.1934 +0100]: Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! How are others supposed to know which lists you read (vs. which you have just posted to)? (a) You see my name on these lists quite often (b) I might have replied to a post from the list (c) I set the Mail-Followup-To header exactly for this purpose (I think your wording probably doesn't say what you mean.) How would you say it? Thanks for CCing me on debian-user -- where I am probably one of the top 50 posters on average... :-/ -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg29500/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 03:46:53PM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: Colin Watson wrote: ... You could always follow his Mail-Followup-To: header, which is designed for exactly this purpose: Mail-Followup-To: Debian [EMAIL PROTECTED] But how would you propose I do that? Do a View Source on every message? Use a mailer that supports it automatically, like mutt or (I believe) modern gnus? (By the way, where is that message header defined? I just searched through all the IETF RfCs but couldn't find it.) It's not an officially standardized header, but many good mail readers support it, and it's a godsend for mailing lists, where no other solution has really proven to be good enough so far. Google should help. Also, see http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/, Code of conduct: the default on Debian mailing lists is stated there as not to copy the original poster. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More detailed post ...
OK Ive had a brainstorming session on how to do this, what I need to know is, 1. Is there a downloader for debian that will handle broken downloads ? If not can anyone recommend one ? 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? Dave -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Hi, * Dave Selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-02-04 23:34]: 1. Is there a downloader for debian that will handle broken downloads ? If not can anyone recommend one ? The thing usually recommended is wget(1). 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? Just guessing, untested: cat 'ATZ' /dev/modem Thorsten -- Unix is not an 'A-ha!' experience, it is more of a 'Holy shit!' experience. - Colin McFadyen msg28633/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Dave Selby wrote: OK Ive had a brainstorming session on how to do this, what I need to know is, 1. Is there a downloader for debian that will handle broken downloads ? If not can anyone recommend one ? Not sure what you mean? wget? 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? echo atz /dev/modem should do it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 10:34:04PM +, Dave Selby wrote: 1. Is there a downloader for debian that will handle broken downloads ? If not can anyone recommend one ? Take a look at wget (I'm thinking of its options -c (continue a previous partial download) and -t (retries)). 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? Assuming your modem is /dev/ttyS1, echo ATZ /dev/ttyS1. -- Seneca [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 10:34:04PM +, Dave Selby wrote: OK Ive had a brainstorming session on how to do this, what I need to know is, 1. Is there a downloader for debian that will handle broken downloads ? If not can anyone recommend one ? apt-get ;-) 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? echo ATZ /dev/modem? hugh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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also sprach Dave Selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.04.2334 +0100]: 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? echo -e ATZ\n /dev/modem -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg28640/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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also sprach Dave Selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003.02.04.2334 +0100]: 1. Is there a downloader for debian that will handle broken downloads ? If not can anyone recommend one ? What kind of download? Regular HTTP? wget can resume HTTP and FTP. -- Please do not CC me when replying to lists that I read! .''`. martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud Debian developer, admin, and user `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system NOTE: The pgp.net keyservers and their mirrors are broken! Get my key here: http://people.debian.org/~madduck/gpg/330c4a75.asc msg28641/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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Hi, * Thorsten Haude [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-02-05 00:08]: 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? Just guessing, untested: cat 'ATZ' /dev/modem Doh. Not cat(1), it's echo(1). Thorsten -- Is there a suspect in your family? - Contact the Ministry of Information. msg28646/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
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* Dave Selby [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030205 07:52]: OK Ive had a brainstorming session on how to do this, what I need to know is, 1. Is there a downloader for debian that will handle broken downloads ? If not can anyone recommend one ? apt-get install wget wget -c http://whatever.you.want 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? Hmm, modems... sorry don't know. Cheers, Nick. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Tuesday 04 February 2003 11:08 pm, Seneca wrote: On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 10:34:04PM +, Dave Selby wrote: 1. Is there a downloader for debian that will handle broken downloads ? If not can anyone recommend one ? Take a look at wget (I'm thinking of its options -c (continue a previous partial download) and -t (retries)). 2. How do I sent an 'ATZ' reset string to my modem from the command line ? Assuming your modem is /dev/ttyS1, echo ATZ /dev/ttyS1. wget looks good to me, it even resets the modem and re-dials if it is not getting the file Probarbly asking the earth ... There isn't a GUI wrapper for it ??? Dave -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 11:48:45PM +, Dave Selby wrote: wget looks good to me, it even resets the modem and re-dials if it is not getting the file Probarbly asking the earth ... There isn't a GUI wrapper for it ??? Just do a reverse-depends check on wget in aptitude, I found two GUI packages that look like they use wget for their downloading: gtm and kmago. -- Seneca [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Wednesday 05 February 2003 1:53 am, Seneca wrote: On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 11:48:45PM +, Dave Selby wrote: wget looks good to me, it even resets the modem and re-dials if it is not getting the file Probarbly asking the earth ... There isn't a GUI wrapper for it ??? Just do a reverse-depends check on wget in aptitude, I found two GUI packages that look like they use wget for their downloading: gtm and kmago. I never thought of that !!, will have to try aptitiude, heard good things about it. Dave -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
